It's amazing to me that this administration has turned out so much worse than even I, jaundiced liberal that I am, could have even predicted. And all Shrub can do is 'privately' chastise Rummy. There were 2 reports before this one came down in Feb. Something is very, very wrong here and no amount of handwashing can get the blood out.

rhc

It's amazing to me that the situation has become far worse than even I, jaundiced liberal that I am, could have ever predicted. And all Shrub can do is privately 'chastise' Rummy. Puhleeze. What I cannot understand is how 40+% of voters still support this idiot.

Item: this is the 3d investigation and it was completed months ago. Why was nothing done until the photos made their way out into the public?

Item: there is evidence that the behavior was widespread and condoned by the higher ups. Who is going to take the responsibility for this? Better be more than just the line guys who were only 'following orders.'

Item: Rumor has it that the pressure was on to uncover WMDs and the interrogation techniques got worse as the pressure to find the WMDs increased. I want someone to look into this.

There's so much more, but so little time.

rhc

I am suprised that the world is suprised by this. War is dehumanizing, and as far as wars go, this is tame stuff. America has sanitized our military exploits since Vietnam. The public is all for war until it sees some consequences on a television- imagine how the people (Iraqis) who live with this day to day are feeling.

This is not in any way to say I condone this disgraceful behavior, but in the context of human nature and history, could we have expected better?

Eric, agreed about war being inhumane. But that's why you have to have a compelling reason for war to begin with. Otherwise there is no overriding goal that can keep you on track when this kind of crap occurs. And in the present situation, the rationale for the war kept changing, even after we went in. It is a quagmire, clear and simple, brought about by a guy who never had to accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions before and even now.

rhc

ps. sorry for the duplicate post above

I agree rhc- very well stated. I was against this situation before the first American soldier touched Iraqi soil.

I agree with the intent of your statement - what these soldiers have done is disgusting/ inhumnae. I wonder though - are we battling primitives?

Um, perhaps you've been living under a moss-covered rock? Watch the news, read the paper.

"I am suprised that the world is suprised by this. War is dehumanizing, and as far as wars go, this is tame stuff."

It's probably also tame stuff compared with what happens day after day in the U.S. prison system.

Hasn't anyone noticed that this prisoner "torture" looks more like frat house pranks? Although not widely reported yet, you will soon learn that what you see in those pictures is intentional humiliation of male prisoners in a fashion particularly demeaning to Arabic men. This was done to put these prisoners in a weaker state of mind to extract information to help our troops fight the war.

None of the actions were in direct violation of the Geneva Convention, such as physical torture, etc.. They are hardly "inhumane" in the context of war.

In deference to the apparently large portion of the readers of this blog who were against the Irag war, I would suggest that we still need to support our troops who are fighting there.

I am particularly distressed that it looks like our government is going to hang that one American female soldier seen in the photos out to dry, even though it seems clear she was simply used as a prop because of the greater degree of humiliation to Arabic men that having a woman see them naked, lead them around by a rope, etc., would cause them.

Go ahead, protest the war; but the photos aren't heinous war crimes as some would have you believe. I myself had very mixed feelings about starting another war with Iraq, but I believe we should support our troops wherever they are in the world. My cousin's husband has had one tour of duty in Iraq, and may have to go back again. Despite what a few pictures may show, our troops are also doing a lot of good for a lot of Iraqi citizens. They lament that the help they are giving never makes it into the current news stories.

I don't think, Jeff R, you can say what a "large portion" of the readers of this blog have to say, since I get about 1200 visitors a day these days, and only about 20-30 comments daily. I, for one, was always in favor of taking action in the Middle East. I just thought it was wrong to go into Iraq when Osama, not Saddam, attacked the WTC. I am also very supportive of our troops - I even sent them a case of tuna fish (don't laugh -- there was a list, and that's the kind of stuff they needed -- unperishable protein). But, while I am by no means a supporter of religion -- any religion -- this was a form of torture to Muslims, and is wrong. Moreover, the "just following orders" thing really doesn't fly. They tried it in after the holocaust.

'They are hardly "inhumane" in the context of war.'

A lot of pacifists would agree with you on that point. Step out of the context of war, and the inhumanity of those actions seems clear. Some people oppose war on principle because it makes cruel and inhuman treatment (and killing) seem heroic. I'm not a pacifist. I support our troops, and I think of them every day. The obituaries can be heartbreaking. Still, it's hard to look at those pictures and not feel ashamed for our nation.

Amy -- Your spam filter blocks my e-mail, so I wanted to tell you: Congratulations! And: We'll be in Romania during the Awards dealio, so on the slim chance I win anything it is imperative that you walk up to the podium and spill alcoholic beverage on Pat Harvey's hairdo.

Jeff R -- As a matter of fact, I've seen many, many other people "notice" the same thing, especially after Rush Limbaugh made that comment on his radio show. Which just confirms two things to me: 1) Sure am glad the only time I ever walked into a frat-house was to steal beer and shaving supplies, and 2) "Supporting the troops" and "criticizing heinous behavior" are actually mutually reinforcing, not incompatible.

To Lena the loner:

Your comment about OUR prison system occurred to me as I was writing that also. Imagine if we had put just some of the money that is being wasted over there educating and properly medicating OUR incarcerated. Why are we so stingy and short sighted with our own and extravagent with others?

Cheer up and buy yourself some new CMFM's!

Hey Jeff R, you let me know what frats would employ the following 'hazing' methods and I'll go ahead and report them to the police, ok?

from the International Red Cross report:

TREATMENT DURING INTERROGATION

Methods of Ill-Treatment

Hooding, used to prevent people from seeing and to disorient them, and also to prevent them from breathing freely. One or sometimes two bags, sometimes with an elastic blindfold over the eyes which, when slipped down, further impeded proper breathing. Hooding was sometimes used in conjunction with beatings thus increasing anxiety as to when blows would come. The practice of hooding also allowed the interrogators to remain anonymous and thus to act with impunity. Hooding could last for periods from a few hours to up to two to four consecutive days, during which hoods were lifted only for drinking, eating or going to the toilets
Handcuffing with flexi-cuffs, which were sometimes made so tight and used for such extended periods that they caused skin lesions and long-term aftereffects on the hands (nerve damage), as observed by the ICRC
Beating with hard objects (including pistols and rifles), slapping, punching, kicking with knees or feet on various parts of the body (legs, sides, lower back, groin)
Pressing the face into the ground with boots
Threats (of ill-treatment, reprisals against family members, imminent executive or transfer to Guantanamo)
Being stripped naked for several days while held in solitary confinement in an empty and completely dark cell that included a latrine
Being paraded naked outside cells in front of other persons deprived of their liberty and guards, sometimes hooded or with women's underwear over the head
Acts of humiliation such as being made to stand naked against the wall of the cell with arms raised or with women's underwear over the head for prolonged periods, while being laughed at by guards, including female guards, and sometimes photographed in this position
Being attached repeatedly over several days, for several hours each time, with handcuffs to the bars of their cell door in humiliating (i.e. naked or in underwear) and/or uncomfortable position causing physical pain
Exposure while hooded to loud noise or music, prolonged exposure while hooded to the sun over several hours, including during the hottest time of the day when temperatures could reach 50 degrees Celsius (122 degrees Fahrenheit) or higher
Being forced to remain for prolonged periods in stress positions such as squatting or standing with or without the arms lifted
These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information or other forms of cooperation from persons who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an "intelligence value."

You want psychological torture? Here's a new acronym that I came across today: SOFFA. It stands for "significant others, friends, family and allies." Yet another pain-inflicting technique of the gay/lesbian social services-industrial complex.

rhc-
Sounds like my life in Middle School! Sorry, but "methods of ill-treatment" and "humiliation" still don't add up to "heinous" war crimes. I'll reserve those terms for folks who behead their non-combatant prisoners while they scream in agony live on the internet. By the way, THEY were wearing the hoods and the heat didn't seem to be affecting them too badly!

Seriously though, I am against the shabby treatment of all humans everywhere. Perhaps someday we won't have to look at each other as us-versus-them anymore. Until then the Lucifer Principle still applies.