Two things, actually.

First, Kerry and Cleland were the worst form of opportunist, taking every opportunity to slander their brothers-in-arms from the time they left the service to the present day. They deserved everything they got.

Second - No matter what bad things we say about Bin Laden's cruelty to muslims or anyone else, it won't make people like him less. The only way to have him lose support is to catch him in the act of screwing a pig up the ass. The worse he is, the more cred he gets.

In fact, hyping the bombing of the Yazidi will only get our own people more incensed that we didn't invade Pakistan and Iran to get Bin Laden.

It certainly won't diminish the Islamist opinion of him.

I can not take a person who calls Kerry and Cleland "authenic Vietnam war heroes" seriously. I do not listen to those who are so stupid and slander true war heroes by including these two sorry individuals in a class of real heroes.

Quibble about Kerry and Cleland if you want, but this sort of statement sounds like a damn good idea to me:

"This genocide of Iraqi civilians was inspired by bin Laden. We accuse bin Laden of the mass murder of 500 women and children. Bin Laden has killed more Iraqis and Muslims than any person alive. Support bin Laden and you support genocide against Muslims."

Amy - don't you get it yet? THAT'S A BADGE OF FUCKING HONOR.

If he kills Shia, the Sunni adore him for killing their enemies. If he kills Sunni, they write the dead off as martyrs.

And finally, everything we say is proof to the Islamists that we are losing.

No, we need to kill them. That's the only way that they lose support in the Islamic world. When we completely wipe them out.

I think the height of stupid, sorry and frivolous is someone who thinks a combat veteran who lost three limbs in war and was awarded a Bronze Star and a Silver Star isn't a "real hero" just because he belongs to a different political party or speaks out against the government and its misguided policies.

Regarding Cleland and Kerry deserving everything they got, you simply haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. I would thank you to refrain from speaking your mind about things you don't understand, but frustratingly enough, idiots, revisionists and outright liars don't have a convenient "off" switch. If they did, we'd never know who Bill O'Reilly was. Or Sean Hannity. Or Michael Moore. Or Ann Coulter. Or George W. Bush. Or Karl Rove. Or Dickhead Cheney. Or Rush Limbaugh...etc.

Quite frankly, knowing what I know about Cleland, I don't need to read another word of what you say to know that you're an apologetic liar.

Cleland for your information, is a hero in every sense of the word, not only earning distinguished decorations prior to his accident in Viet Nam, but for his conduct afterwords.

Cleland, due to his position as a Senator and status as a wounded Viet Nam veteran, could have had his own vehicle and chaffeur entirely financed by the government. Instead Cleland had his own car modified at his own expense so he could drive himself.

Two-faced, double-standard-wielding neocon apologists like Limbaugh should be praising heroism like Cleland's to the skies. But the neocons, all the while claiming to value "rugged individualism," (which is actually neoconspeak for "I'm taking it all, even if I have to ruin your environment and pay my employees minimum wage to get it!") curiously are reticent about this aspect of Cleland's character.

Ann Coulter, for instance, dishonest as she is, simply pretends that Cleland is only considered a hero because he picked up a grenade he dropped. (Actually, he didn't drop it. It was dropped by a fellow soldier. But Coulter loves to lie like Newt Gingrich likes to cheat on his wife.)

When you lose three limbs, Brian, be sure to post here and let us know how you're doing. How much disability payment will you draw? Who's going to pay for your transportation? Your housing? How much are you going to get in food stamps?

And quite frankly, when it comes to politics, Bush has become his own worst enemy. He couldn't sabatoge his own ratings better if he tried.

1) What is this, Bipolar Day? Everyone: please make up your mind whether you want more or less American involvement in Iraq. Hint: the two terms are exclusive.

2) Max Cleland was maimed in an accident. Yes, he has class for carrying on as he has with his personal injuries. No, his experience does NOT qualify him beyond his appreciation of his duties as a field soldier. At the same time he earns my respect for having served, thousands of other soldiers of his rank and below have similar and superior records. We have a LOT of good people who went to Vietnam. This seems to be invisible except when someone wants to make political points for one man.

If you value battle experience so much, that means you voted for Bob Dole and Wesley Clark when you had the chance, right?

Of course, military skills don't automatically qualify anyone to hold public office. John Glenn is a superhuman pilot and astronaut, but not all that in office.

If you value battle experience so much, that means you voted for Bob Dole and Wesley Clark when you had the chance, right?

Wrong extension of my point. I did not vote for either. However, I don't personally consider them "sorry individuals" simply because I happen to disagree with them in the political arena. I respect their service. I respect them for continuing to take part in our representative democracy. I respect them for knowing when to step down graciously and let others take over.

Likewise, I respect Senator John McCain because of his service in Vietnam and the years of his life lost in the hell of a Vietnamese prison. That doesn't mean, however, I'll ever respect his decision to speak at Bob Jones University. I'm easily able to separate the personal from the political. That's a subtle yet important difference lost on the average ideologue.

Cleland's injuries resulted from an accident, not combat.

I am a Vietnam combat veteran. I save the hero status for those who were (no longer with us) and those that are. Kerry and Cleland do not belong in the war hero class, and the fact that they capitilized on others makes them sorry individuals. If that bothers you, so be it. I earned the right to say it.

No, we need to kill them

Well, obviously, and it would have been great if we focused on taking them out rather than going on a side trip to take out Saddam.

Agreed Amy. I can not prove it but I believe the course of taking "them" out would have taken us to Saddam, like it will eventually take us to the other countries that hate us enough to harbor the virgin coveting moslems.

Brian

In a recent post you, who never was in the military, explained to we who were in the military everything we didn't know about military service. Once again you are advising us of everything we never learned from our service.

What would we do without you?

The essence of successful military service is, in military terminology, "duty". It means being where your supposed to be doing what you're supposed to be doing. It has nothing to do with who thinks you did or didn't deserve a medal. John Kerry, as in commonly understood by military people, did his duty; George W Bush did not.

That said, Bush's military failure should have easily identified him as an undesirable for a job whose occupant, among other things, is commander in chief of the military. Kerry's inability to handle the swift boat "veterans" showed he probably did not have the talent for the job.

We are asking the wrong question in trying to revisit the choice between Bush and Kerry. The real question is why did we have such a sorry choice, and what can we do to prevent a future sorry choice.

At the current time, we are not answering either quesion. I predict that in 2008 we will once again be faced with sorry choices, regardless of which particular individuals are on the ballot.

John Kerry, as in

Correction-John Kerry, as is commonly understood by military people, did his duty;

A couple of random comments -

Crid is right that there is a real tendency to make too much of military experience when it comes to politicians. Our greatest wartime presidents - FDR and Lincoln - lacked military experience.

Dave is also right that the term hero is thrown about too easily. I appreciate the fact that Kerry and Cleland served honorably in wartime, but I think that many others have a better claim to the term hero.

And I think Brian is right that the dynamics of the Islamic fundie world that make it really easy to justify just about any deaths in terms of jihad make it really hard to use any deaths against the jihadis in propaganda terms.

And I think that Bush and his people are much better at domestic politics than they are at governing our country or managing the war.

Dave writes: "Cleland's injuries resulted from an accident, not combat."

Sigh. And who said any different? Why, no one! I was pointing out that Cleland was already quite well decorated prior to his accident, and he was. He was awarded the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for deeds of valor prior to his accident.

Thousands, huh, Radwaste? They gave out thousands of the Bronze and Silver Stars, did they?

This is what I mean when people ramble on and on about things they know nothing about. "Well, let's just make up our information as we go along! We'll just be very pompous and bombastic so people will think we know what we're talking about! Yeah, that will work!"

OH, SHUT UP! Kindly bring facts to the table, folks. Is that so much to ask? I'd rather not have to spend my time sifting through ever spurious or dubious claim just because some people think they're on a roll and like to make it all up as they go along. "Yeah, that sounds right. Let's just say that, even thought we haven't lifted a finger to find out whether or not we're just spouting BULLSHIT!"

Dave writes: I am a Vietnam combat veteran. I save the hero status for those who were (no longer with us) and those that are. Kerry and Cleland do not belong in the war hero class, and the fact that they capitilized on others makes them sorry individuals. If that bothers you, so be it. I earned the right to say it.

No, you never earned the right to smear people. So sorry. Smearing is not a right. I don't care if you're the freaking Messiah; you don't have the right to smear people. And it doesn't do you honor. It only disgraces you. Apparently, you find fault with Kerry and Cleland for their conduct after their tours for...what was it again? "Slandering their brothers-in-arms." Yet, somehow, you do the same to them, but it doesn't seem to be so disgraceful...

Holy double-standards, Batman!

I'm a veteran of the first Gulf War. Aren't you impressed? I'm not. It was dumb. My NCOIC didn't do jack there, except work on his suntan, but all he did was brag about how he put in for extended duty. Yeah, that suntan really needed work. We'd be setting up tents for our office and he'd be sunning himself in a lawn chair. It's a good thing we were never fired upon. He'd have been a "friendly fire casualty," guaranteed. I never saw anybody earn the antipathy of his subordinates so quickly.

Let's talk about your decorations, bright boy. Tell us all about your acts of heroism, and let's see how they compare to Cleland's or Kerry's. We're all ears!

Could you point to my "smear" so that I may respond.

Also, I earned the right to speak when I was born.

Patrick already referenced it:

Kerry and Cleland do not belong in the war hero class, and the fact that they capitilized on others makes them sorry individuals.

Does that help? By your own admission, you think war heroes are:

I save the hero status for those who were (no longer with us) and those that are

Since I'm 99.9% positive Cleland and Kerry are still with us as of this moment, I'm curious as to why they don't fit your definition of a war hero. They're still here...so that leaves what, exactly? Define "capitalized". Kerry spoke out against the Vietnam War soon after returning home. So did a lot of veterans. Cleland supported Kerry in his run for the Presidency in 2004. The list of politicians who have "capitalized" on their military service is a long one, beginning with George Washington. What makes John Kerry and Max Cleland so different...other than (in Kerry's case particularly) they came to oppose the war you yourself served in, and oppose the current President and the War in Iraq? They didn't check their First Amendment rights at the door when they left the military. How specifically have they dishonored themselves?

How did Kerry become an "authenic Vietnam war hero?" I am not stating that he is, you are. I am stating that he agrees with you, that he is a war hero. Therefore, he is capitalizing on your and his opinion by putting it out in public. I do not consider him a "authenic Vietnam war hero" in that I have never heard what he did to become one, even though, oddly, he kept written record of his accomplishments in Vietnam that have been discussed publicly. I do not understand your First Amendment rights comment.

How did Cleland become an "authenic Vietnam war hero?" Again, I am not stating he is, you are. Tell me why. I do not consider an accident that did not occur in combat to warrant hero status. Falling on a grenade to protect your fellow soldiers does. Most in public considered, wrongly, that his injuries resulted from combat. I am not aware that he actively put that incorrect assumption to rest. Now how is that a smear?

Men, women and dogs do not become authenic war heros simply by being in combat. It takes a little more than that. You may disagree. That is fine; ignorant, but fine. Saying something over and over does not make it a fact. Audie Murphy was an authenic war hero. Some by their actions are obvious heros. Others, require some background. But, surprise, surprise (little Gomer lingo) we may not all agree.

Ah, but the definition you gave of a war hero was the one that you yourself typed above:

I save the hero status for those who were (no longer with us) and those that are

Maybe my grasp of the English language isn't what it used to be, but I understand your sentence to mean that anyone who served and is either dead or alive is a hero. What they "did", by your own earlier definition, is irrelevant. Whether or not you agree with their respective decisions (particularly in the case of Kerry's three Purple Hearts) the U.S. Army and Navy saw fit to award both men with medals. They might have gotten their injuries while, like Patrick's superior, working on their tan. But since there's no evidence either of the two men were cowards, I'm going to have to go with the Army and the Navy here, and not Dave, anonymous guy on the Internet.

Cleland's never hidden the fact he was injured in an accident outside of battle. Is he supposed to take out ads in every newspaper to make sure every single American understands this?

And my First Amendment crack was directed at the usual source of distaste for Kerry and Cleland: their liberal worldview and in Kerry's case, speaking out against Vietnam. The original Swift Boat crew was funded in large part by conservative friends of the Administration looking to punish both men for having the wrong politics.

My definition was incomplete. Cooking my dinner interupted my sentence. I think you can get my drift in my later posts. If not, "that earned the status." Medals do not equate hero. For you maybe, not me. I do not recall calling anyone a coward. Also, I have never been called a "usual source of distaste." Ish.

I still do not know why the some think the two are "authenic Vietnam war heroes." Rebecca, do you really agree with what Kerry said about us Vietnam vets? I wasn't a "hero" like him, but I did spend more time in a field hospital than he did. I also do not consider myself the criminal Kerry said I was.

Just for starters, Cleland and Kerry (whom I happen to think is a scumbag) did their duty to their country. Quibble about whether they're heroes or not if you will, but the fact that they didn't duck service puts them heads and tails over the current occupant of The Oval Office. I respect Kerry for speaking out against the war when he came back, and I don't respect him for much. Freedom of speech: Use it or lose it.

How is Kerry a hero? I don't know. Why don't ask the member of his crew whose life he saved by pulling him out of the river while under fire for starters? In fact, why don't you ask his entire crew? They certainly shared their experiences with Kerry and spoke highly of him.

How is Cleland a hero? You seem to have selective reading problems. You don't read (or you pretend not to have read) things that you don't like or don't coincide with your own preconceived ideas. Again, I did not state the Cleland is a war hero because of an accident that caused him to lose three limbs (although he has demonstrated an indominatable strength of character in continuing as he has since that accident), his bronze and silver star were awarded for acts of valor that had nothing to do with his accident, including his bravery during the battle of Khe Sanh.

And what was W.'s record? Jumped the queue ahead of thousands to gain a spot in the Texas Air National Guard. Didn't finish, in fact disappeared (technical term is going AWOL) for eight months to a year, and yet still was ``honorably discharged.'' And he's still fighting the Vietnam War, in his own way.

Well, might as well start with the last comment first - JQP - that whole episode with 60 minutes? ALL LIES.

Patrick - nice way to play the chickenhawk card. Oh, can you explain to me how the whole "Winter Soldier" thing wasn't a smear? Or did Kerry earn the right to smear his fellow soldiers? I know that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, but it is nice from time to time regardless.

Rebecca - it has nothing to do with Cleland's party, and everything to do with his behavior. Although you seem to think he's earned the right to convict Marines of murder and all but call the President an accomplice. You'll note that most of those Marines have not been charged. Will Cleland apologize for his hasty rush to judgement? Yeah, and monkeys will fly out of my ass.

Amy - you don't understand the true meaning of "them" if you think Saddam was a distraction. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, we might have to kill upwards of 25% of the worlds muslim population to wipe out the virus of Islamism. They can't be reformed, they need to die. And so do all the people running the government that offer them material or moral support.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. I just hope we don't have to wait until Chicago or LA is under a mushroom cloud before we conclude that these fuckers are serious about this "Great Satan" shit.

Also, I have never been called a "usual source of distaste."

You misunderstood that sentence, Dave. The unspoken part of it is on the part of those who hate Kerry and Cleland.

Rebecca, do you really agree with what Kerry said about us Vietnam vets?

Do I agree that American soldiers committed atrocities in Vietnam? Sure. It's well documented. I don't understand why it is/was such a terrible thing to discuss war crimes on the part of our military. It doesn't diminish the service of Americans as a whole, because it's not isolated to the Vietnam War (or any specific war) by any means. Some of the people serving in Iraq are doing the same horrible things. Open the newspaper. Haditha, Abu Gharib, the list goes on... Does that mean everyone serving is a war criminal? Of course not. Most are doing their time, some are rising above the call of duty, and everyone's waiting to go home. You tell me the war where no one on either side did anything horrible outside of battle, and I'll sell you this bridge in Brooklyn I've got in my pocket.

Just the fact alone that Cleland and Kerry answered the call of duty, showed up, punched the clock, served their time and went home says a lot about their character. Compared to most of the hawks in the current Administration, like Dick Cheney, who sought five deferments because he "had better things to do", they seem like heroes to me.

Rebecca, Vietnam vets were not generally seen as heroes at the time of their return. At least not as I recall. But then I did spend a few years in therapy with NB. Did you think of them as heroes then, or just the likes of Kerry?

Oh, and Patrick, we have a different opinion of who qualifies as a hero. Obviously, you do not agree with me. Something about free speech isn't it?

Given the fact that I was all of a year old at the time of Kerry's original testimony before Congress, I hadn't formed an opinion on the vets returning from Vietnam. It's not much of an excuse, but it's all I got.

I think the majority of vets (including WWII and Korea) did not consider him a hero then and have never changed their opinion. No different from Jane Fonda - they live in the same pond.

"Thousands, huh, Radwaste? They gave out thousands of the Bronze and Silver Stars, did they?"

Yes!

Try to remember how many served - how many were injured, how many battles occurred over a ten year period in Vietnam alone.

The E-9 reservist down the hall from me got a Bronze Star for running his logistics division well in Iraq.

You might also note that Pat Tillman and Oliver North have Silver Stars, raising legitimate questions about the actual merit of the award and any link one might suggest to merit in private or public service outside the military.

www.acepilots.com/medals/us_ww2_medals.html says that about 60 thousand Silver Stars have been awarded.

www.homeofheroes.com/valor2/SS/5_RVN/indexes/index_USMC_a.html has identified 2433 Silver Stars awarded to US Marine recipients alone in Vietnam, and they state that their list is incomplete. Do you grant that the Bronze Star is more common, or should I do that digging too?

There are a LOT of courageous Americans. Why would anyone think otherwise?

www.acepilots.com/medals/us_ww2_medals.html

says nothing about how many Silver Stars were awarded in Viet Nam. Too bad you tried to mislead, huh, Radwaste?

That's just pitiful. Patrick, look it up. Criminy, just read the very next line! I'm not misleading anybody. You are simply mad at being caught out. Thousands I meant and thousands I can prove - and I have with the second link.

www.homeofheroes.com/valor2/SS/5_RVN/indexes/index_USMC_a.html has identified 2433 Silver Stars awarded to US Marine recipients alone in Vietnam. They list them by name.

Apology accepted!

Rebecca,

JF Kerry, of winter soldier infamey, whose testimoney before Congress was a direct recitation of Commie propaganda, also, while still a Naval Reserve Officer, went and Negotiated with the Enemy, on his own. A direct violation of the UCMJ and considered by many to be a treasonous Act. The book "Unfit for Command" was written by members of the unit that served with Kerry in combat in Vietnam, in response to Kerry falsifying his war record and had nothing to do with partisanship. You might want to actually Read it. Oh and just when is JFK giong to release his military records? Like he has promised to do.

FWIW, I am an eight year Vet, Cold war era, Libitarian, Military contractor, going back to Iraq for my second tour.