Don't Credit The Nutters For Fewer Abortions
In The New York Times, there's an editorial that goes into where, exactly, the abortion rate went down: '
Between 2000 and 2005, the last year in the study by the Guttmacher Institute, the number of abortions performed yearly dropped from 1.3 million to 1.2 million, the fewest since 1974. The proportion of pregnancies ending in abortion also declined significantly.Abortion opponents like the National Right to Life Committee seized upon the numbers as vindication for their strategy of demonizing abortion and making it harder for women to obtain one. Many states now mandate counseling sessions beforehand. But a harder look at the data suggests another explanation.
Almost two-thirds of the decline in the total number of abortions can be traced to eight jurisdictions with few or no abortion restrictions — New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois, California, Oregon, Washington State and the District of Columbia. These are places, notes the Guttmacher Institute’s president, Sharon Camp, that have shown a commitment to real sex education, largely departing from the Bush administration’s abstinence-only approach. These jurisdictions also help women avoid unintended pregnancies by making contraception widely available.
The lesson: prevention works. Restrictions on abortion serve mainly to hurt poor women by postponing abortions until later in pregnancy. While shifting social mores may change some people’s behavior, the best practical strategy for reducing abortions is to focus on helping women avoid unwanted pregnancies.
One of the most intriguing findings of the abortion study has to do with RU-486, which allows women to safely terminate a pregnancy in its first weeks without surgery. Guttmacher Institute researchers found that a significant decline in the number of abortion providers over the past decade is being offset by an increase in providers that offer the drug.
What kind of idiot thinks telling teenagers not to have sex will have an effect other than having them not carry condoms and not be prepared when they eventually get hot and hormonal? I guess if you can believe, without evidence, that there's a big man in the sky moving everybody around like chess pieces, you'll believe anything.
Think of the big man in the sky as a computer program written by a programmer from a much older part of our own galaxy. Credit fewer unwanted inseminations to the H. sapiens sapiens version 2.2 upgrade they released recently ;-)
William at January 26, 2008 7:52 AM
"I guess if you can believe, without evidence, that there's a big man in the sky moving everybody around like chess pieces"
Yea, obviously, everyone should be like all the "rational” people like yourself who believe that everything magically appeared from nothing. I don't see a whole lot of difference between one group and the other except that one group thinks they are so much smarter than the other that they don't go to Church.
Nice to see that if someone disagrees with your orthodoxy, they can expect childish put downs.
Since the introduction of birth control and the decline of religion:
Teen pregnancy rate: up
Domestic violence rate: up
Divorce rate: up
#Single Parents: up
Abortion rate: up
Welfare costs:up
Maybe we really do reap what we sow.
Irrational at January 26, 2008 12:50 PM
Other things "Since the introduction of birth control and the decline of religion:
Number of humans born every year -up
Number of infant deaths -down
Number of childhood deaths -down
The average life span -up
Understanding in science and technology -up
Quality of life -up
Infectious dieses, plauges & pandemics -down
And FYI irrational did you not read the article that said abortion rates were going DOWN because programs were not using RELIGIOUS BASED "medical" resoning
The abortion rate goes down when you take religion out of the equasion, and so does teen pregnancy
lujlp at January 26, 2008 1:14 PM
I for one don't believe that teen pregnancy is up. I think more of it was covered up and not reported in the past than you will ever know.
I still remember fondly standing on the street corner making out with my girlfriend, (we were both 14), when my mother drove her 62 Ford Falcon around the corner and threw a few words of parental adoration out way, (Screaming at the top of her lungs, “DON’T YOU KNOCK THAT BITCH UP!” Well, I did. I was 15 when my daughter was born. Think that’s bad? My brother had three when he was 17. Think that’s bad, my mother had me when she was 16, and I was her THIRD! She was actually first pregnant when she was twelve. And her mother had her when she was 14. Why all this teen pregnancy? Well, most of my family is from North Carolina which was like the original Beverly Hillbillies, (before the oil). Not only was it normal to have kids in your early teens, it was common and expected. My mother was married when she was thirteen, legally. Since we usually had rather long lives, we had six generations living in my family for most of my life. But you know what they really didn’t have much of back then? Birth control. Back in the fifties and before, it just wasn’t that available nor would you be caught dead buying it in a small town where the only druggist would tell your parents. So since teens have sex, they got pregnant. And speaking of teens having sex, there are two laws regarding teen sex, mans law and natures law. Man decided that we shouldn’t have sex till were eighteen, mother nature starts nudging us into puberty, periods and hormones when we’re like 13. Man has not been able to write a law that overrides mother nature yet.
I am a firm believer we are having less abortion is because we have more options on birth control than we used to. Sure, abstinence does work and it’s good for prevention of disease, if you could only get kids to do it. I don’t think church really helps that much, If you wanna know why, I’ll go over my Sam Kinison story again.
Oh, and irrational, you missed one stat:
Population: WAAYYY UP
Bikerken at January 26, 2008 1:32 PM
"Yea, obviously, everyone should be like all the "rational” people like yourself who believe that everything magically appeared from nothing."
Irrational (thanks for the honesty), this is a fiction, invented by religious activists. There is considerable debate about the method by which what we see "arrived", and this is highlighted by the plain fact that we can see no evidence whatsoever of "creation" - only conversion, the process of changing one thing into another. Perhaps you have been misled by the universal egotism of Man claiming to "create" "new" things; maybe you have even seen the joke, with the punchline, "no, get your own dirt".
Science is busy trying to explain observed phenomena by intently studying natural laws. How is this inferior to reading one book and nodding? You won't even invest any meaningful thought into the wholly rational questions, "OK, where did your God come from? And where were the raw materials?"
Meanwhile, you should know abstinence doesn't work. It didn't work for Mary!
Radwaste at January 26, 2008 1:47 PM
Is it more rational to believe that humans developed thru changes of species over millions of years or that there was a god who just wiggled his nose like Samantha and there we were? Hmmmm. I'll take door number one. For thousands of years man has been trying to convince man that god created man. I think the truth is man created god to explain the unknown and assuage fears of their own inevitable mortality. As long as they don’t go chopping heads off or trying to cast demons out of you, or burning you at the stake, I don’t have any problem with someone having their own god. I have my god. My god takes care of the weak and the children, tries to live up to the image that dogs have of us and tries to bring a little smile to those around me every day. He also spends most of his money on beer, motorcycles, fun women and gambling, the rest he wastes.
Gotta go, time for church!
Bikerken at January 26, 2008 2:45 PM
It's easy to miss the point by bashing those who believe in a loving and benevolent God that loves everyone, even the unborn. What is the point? The point is that if you or I are here giving our opinions about abortion, and God, etc, it stands to reason that we would not be here if we had not been given anchance to come into this world. Therefore all of our hope, all of our rights, and all of our potential as human beings exists from inside the womb. Is there anyone on this blog (including it's creator) that can claim that they would be able to give their opinions, or advice, if someone had not first given them life? In summary, all of our rights etc are completely dependent on that first sacred right which is the right to be born.
If you can claim that you are here without the first right which is your right to life, then you truly are someone special and miraculous. We must pray that people thoughout the world come to understand this principle. God bless you all.
C.A.N. at January 26, 2008 7:52 PM
There's no evidence there's a god, so it makes as much sense to believe that my desk lamp is loving and benevolent. Feel free to keep avoiding critical thought if that makes you feel all cuddly inside, but don't tell me I can't get a fertilized egg vacuumed out of me because you have a fairy-tale sensibility.
If you think a potential human being is equivalent to the man walking down my street with an umbrella right now, well, then you bring a baby to term.
Amy Alkon at January 26, 2008 8:06 PM
That my point. You can get a "fertilized egg" vacuumed out because you have life to do it. The fact that this action against the "fertilized egg" can be undertaken by you is because you have life. And you have life because when you in your earlist stages of human developement"Fertilized egg"...someone brought you to term, and did not vacuum you out. You could not be here without first being there. None of us could. We should ask God for Grace to extend the benfit of life that was extended to us to others in waiting. I am a business man, and I deal in value and knowing value in my product which is real estate. All of us, myself included benefit from meditating on the value of life, so that we in understanding it, will not give it away so freely.
C.A.N. at January 26, 2008 8:35 PM
That my point. You can get a "fertilized egg" vacuumed out because you have life to do it.
I can also eat ice cream and wear shoes.
There's no evidence there's a god so asking "God" anything is as silly as talking to my lamp.
I value life, probably more than most religious people, since it seems likely I'll be on the planet for a little while, and then I'll be worms. Period.
My life has meaning because I give it meaning, not because I believe what I'm told by people who make their money off gullible people whose fears of death are best assuaged by the fairy tale that there's a big man in the sky who gives a shit about them.
Amy Alkon at January 26, 2008 9:02 PM
Will you concede that abortion is hideous?
Crid at January 26, 2008 9:22 PM
I don't find it hideous, simply icky.
Oh, I do have to add that I see abortion as a procedure that should be done immediately. My personal feeling, not something I want to mandate for all. So, that goes into what I said above. I think pregnancy should be avoided, but if it happens, I'm not going to be the terrarium for the growing fetus. That would be hideous.
Amy Alkon at January 26, 2008 9:40 PM
CAN -
Indeed, if I had been an aborted fetus, I would not be here to discuss this issue or any other, what's your point? If the jackasses in my neighborhood, who seem bloody keen on shooting each other over substances that get you high had been aborted, the decent folks in my neighborhood wouldn't have to be concerned about getting caught in the crossfire. The vacuum cuts both ways friend.
Crid -
Will you concede that abortion is hideous?
No. What's hideous is a thirteen year old carrying a fetus to term so that society has to deal with the child of the child who was likely also the child of a child - likely paying the way for them to boot. While Bikerken is proof that not everyone raised this way turns into a completely useless git, he is rather exceptional.
The only thing that I find hideous about abortion, is that the majority of abortions happen, because people were not using a condom while fucking around. It's not the abortion that is horrifying, it's the fact that the behaviors that led to it, can also lead to far worse, like AIDS.
DuWayne at January 27, 2008 11:22 AM
In the development of our lives, we cant skip steps. That guy in the umbrella walking down the steet is only where he is in life because his first stages of development "Fertilized egg" were protected. Had he been vacuumed out, he would not be walking down the street. If we approach this concept of abortion rationally, then we will be honest with ourselves and say, "Yes I support abortion" in spite of the fact that others did not support it against me when I was a "fertilzed egg". We will admit that it is pretty convenient to be on the other side of the bridge of human development looking back and saying..."I am sure glad I made it over. By the way, I am sorry, but you fertilzed eggs will not have the same opportunity, and I will support those who prevent you from crossing over. If I thought that way, I would have to use one label for myself..."Bully". In summary our very existence gives us the responsibility to insure that human life in each of it's stages, from conception to natural death is protected.
C.A.N. at January 27, 2008 11:52 AM
> No.
Great. Go out there and be persuasive, you big-picture guy, you....
Crid at January 27, 2008 12:21 PM
"Hi, I'm God. Just wanted to let you know I'm still here, watching you all the time, waiting for you to make a mistake so I can torture you in Hell for eternity.
But only because I love you so very, very much."
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 27, 2008 12:29 PM
Had he been vacuumed out, he would not be walking down the street.
If a meteorite crashed into my house last night, I would not be typing this now.
"If we approach this concept of abortion rationally, then we will be honest with ourselves and say, "Yes I support abortion" in spite of the fact that others did not support it against me when I was a "fertilzed egg."
Are you posting this for real, or trying for parody?
Amy Alkon at January 27, 2008 12:36 PM
CAN -
...is only where he is in life because his first stages of development "Fertilized egg" were protected.
No. He is able to do that, because his mother chose not to abort him. My own right to develop were not protected, it would have even been legal for my mother to abort me (under the circs, she actually considered it).
Crid -
I needn't do that at all. There is absolutely no reason for me to go out and convince people that abortion is not horrifying. OTOH, I do spend some of my time trying to convince young people that having Teh Sex, is something that requires certain precautions. But I use the horror that is HIV and AIDS, to attempt the convincing, rather than the horror that is abortion.
DuWayne at January 27, 2008 5:17 PM
> rather than the horror
> that is abortion.
Cute wording! An allusion to humanity, without the pesky concession that a fetus is actually human flesh and blood....
Don't stop! Share your wisdom! Get a motorhome and travel the hinterland, announcing your appearances on country radio stations! Get out there and sell, sell, sell!
Crid at January 27, 2008 5:27 PM
Crid -
I have no problems whatsoever conceding that a fetus is human flesh and blood, never said it wasn't. Of course, cancer is also human flesh and blood. A hematoma is human flesh and blood.
But again, I have absolutely no reason to go out promoting abortion. Don't see why I should. I spend the time I have for advocacy and the like, advocating for things that are more timely, such as marriage equality and safe sex.
Though honestly, I am spending more and more time, rabble rousing about education, locally. We are currently homeschooling, but I would like to get into a position to send our son to school. Unfortunately, local schools have little to offer a special needs (severe ADHD) child, less than even my school did for me. So I really put convincing people that abortion isn't a horrible thing, rather way low on the list of things that are important uses of my time.
I find it rather amusing that you bring more into what I am saying, or not saying, than is actually being said. I am not trying to hide anything, damp down discussion of any aspect of what we are talking about here. You do this sometimes with other topics, like I am trying to hide something, afraid to talk about something. You do the same thing with marriage equality, Acting as though I am trying to hide the fact that I have and want to see implemented some very radical ideas about marriage and familial rights. Please, if you question my willingness to disclose uncomfortable ideas, then ask me before you assume that I am afraid to say it.
Many faults I may (and do) have. Being afraid to stand by the negative or implied negatives that come with ideas I support is not one of them. I spend a fair amount of time second guessing myself and things that I support. I have no problem throwing that into the light.
I write this after handing my six week old son to his mom, for some boob time. I actually think a lot about abortion and the fact that had the down syndrome tests came back positive, aborting him would have been a horror to us. But raising a down syndrome child, would have been impossible for us, at least for also providing the older son with a reasonable chance at life.
So I will even concede that abortion can be horrifying. But this does not mean that it always is. Many people haven't a problem with it at all. For others, it might be a wake-up call, to be safer. Some people don't handle it so well, even those who are not in a position to reasonably raise a child or even bring it to term safely. So it goes. But your feeling that abortion is a horror, is not everybody's.
DuWayne at January 27, 2008 9:56 PM
So as a woman who has no desire to marry and have kids, you think you really have given enough though to this to oppose telling kids to not do it? Don't parents have the right to teach morality? And yes, screwing around is immoral. Even if you use a rubber, you can still be a whore you know. We don't want our little girls growing up to be whores, and our little boys growing up to little ego-tripping cock-slingers.
Quite frankly, the pro-choice side would be a hell of a lot more palatable if they weren't so busy pushing over the counter abortion pills (what happens when someone slips it to someone else? What happened to parental rights?) and infanticide of babies that could be taken by c-section or induced labor and be just fine.
Smarty at January 28, 2008 6:08 AM
That's just silly, the notion that I can't opine on this because I don't want kids. You don't get pregnant, are you also unqualified?
Amy Alkon at January 28, 2008 6:17 AM
No, but there is a lot of thought that has to go into "how do I teach my kids this, How would I react to that" that you may have never really gotten into.
Like unless you have a breadmaker, why would you spend much time cogitating on the advantages of breadmaker yeast vs. regular yeast?
Have you actually given that much thought to the issue? Have you imagined what you would do if you found out that your kids were taught to put condoms on bananas (maybe with their mouth??), then driven to an abortion clinic by the same people who would sanctimoniously suspend them for sharing Midol?
Your answer to the issue seemed a bit flippant and off the cuff, and didn't seem to take into account that it wasn't until birth control and the free love message that teenage pregnancy, unwed mothers in general, and VD started to spiral out of control. Compare and contrast, Amy.
Smarty at January 28, 2008 7:16 AM
Smarty re: OTC abortion pills?
I believe you're mistaken. Currently, there are no abortion pills available OTC. There is only one abortion pill (that I know of), RU-486, and can be obtained by Rx only. You must be referring to Plan B, which is not an "abortion" pill. It's fortunately now available without a prescription through the pharmacy (for $45!), and essentially it's a high dose of birth control hormones and prevents the release of an egg.
The other possible mechanism of action is that the pill may prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg, but if you want to get all technical about it, science and reason place the moment of pregnancy at implantation, not fertilization. Just FYI!
Amy rocks!
JBoogie at January 28, 2008 10:50 AM
AMA and the "lets teach them how to use condoms!!" bloc want RU-486 to be OTC.
Smarty at January 28, 2008 12:23 PM
"Have you imagined what you would do if you found out that your kids were taught to put condoms on bananas (maybe with their mouth??)"
Damn. What school is this? They didn't let us do any fun stuff like that in our sex ed class! I didn't acquire those kind of skills until college.
sofar at January 28, 2008 1:08 PM
Amy,
It was a pleasure blogging with you. Even though you have made it abundantly clear that you dont believe in God, I will pray for you. If he does not exist, my prayers wont hurt you. If he does exist, then the blessings you will receive will be awesome. Why? Because God is love, and all good things come from him. I sincerly wish you all the best.
C.A.N.
P.S. If you do come to believe someday, dont forget to pray for me C.A.N. I need them.
C.A.N. at January 28, 2008 4:12 PM
> Don't parents have the right to teach morality? And yes, screwing around is immoral. Even if you use a rubber, you can still be a whore you know. We don't want our little girls growing up to be whores, and our little boys growing up to little ego-tripping cock-slingers.
Whore? Cock-slingers? I'm glad you're not my mom.
Fact: Children have sex and get pregnant despite every type of countermeasure. Fact: Inflamed teenage libidos can completely overwhelm reason. Factoid: Children rebel against parental authority, particularly the oppressive type. Result: Fear and Guilt are lousy birth control methods.
I think some people secretly delight in asserting moral superiority over their children, which I find contemptible. An acquaintance once said that his daughter, before starting college, asked him what he would think if she got drunk with her new friends (or some similarly mild indiscretion). He told her he would chalk it up to bad parenting and they would both move on. What an asshole.
Admit that kids will have sex and give them the resources to avoid parenthood.
DaveG at January 28, 2008 4:28 PM
Smarty -
And yes, screwing around is immoral.
No it's not. Sexual repression is immoral.
We don't want our little girls growing up to be whores, and our little boys growing up to little ego-tripping cock-slingers
Then hide them in the closet. Society is not going to be responsible for coddling your kids. Either prepare them for the world, the best you know how, or keep 'em at home where the world can't get to them. If you choose the latter, just keep in mind that it will come back to bite you when they actually leave home.
No, but there is a lot of thought that has to go into "how do I teach my kids this, How would I react to that" that you may have never really gotten into.
And this relates to supporting abortion how? Seriously. If it requires a parent to objectively discuss the issue, then I'm right here, in one hundred percent agreement with Amy (on this one, believe me, I disagree with her a lot). Just had my second child six weeks ago. And I think about how to discuss this and many other important issues with both my kids.
Indeed, I have already talked about drugs and some of the potential consequences of sex, with my six year old (we have more than one friend who is HIV positive or have full blown AIDS). We talked about drugs for the first time, when he was three and we saw someone hitting their crack pipe, while we were out walking. STDs came up when he was three as well, though it was a very constrained discussion, as that is when we made our first HIV positive friend in Portland. The boy knew our friend was sick and so we discussed it.
None of this has traumatized him in any way. Over the years, he has learned more about reproduction and better understands how STDs are spread. He has learned more about substance abuse and why people fall into it. He has learned a lot about poverty and homelessness. There is still a lot on all those topics that need to be filled in, but we've laid the foundation, started the discussion early, so that by the time a lot of this is relevant to him, he will know a lot about it.
Have you imagined what you would do if you found out that your kids were taught to put condoms on bananas
I would flip a lid. Mainly because if fruit or veggies are used for the demo, a cucumber is the way to go. The best of course, would be to use a round ended dowel rod.
Guarantee, my son's will know how to put a bloody condom on properly, before they might decide to go experimenting. I will not gamble with my kid's lives, that my convincing them to wait on Teh Sex, is actually going to work. Having several friends who have managed to get HIV, will hopefully convince them to use the damn things.
(maybe with their mouth??)
As if you weren't before, you are now out there in the realms of absurdity, where the absurd fear to tread.
...and didn't seem to take into account that it wasn't until birth control and the free love message that teenage pregnancy, unwed mothers in general, and VD started to spiral out of control.
Holy shit, you are bloody well naive. The only one in there that is remotely accurate, is the unwed mothers. And that was an unintended consequence of the welfare state we have now, rather than those psychedelic sixties.
DuWayne at January 28, 2008 4:35 PM
C.A.N., you are totally clueless. Much as I love life, too bad my mother didn't have an abortion. Or better yet, she didn't trust God for birth control in the first place before she had 8 kids in 10 years time. Funny thing happens when you trust God to control the population -- he doesn't. So we have all the problems of overpopulation, including the earth's resources being depleted at a rapid pace, because all too many freaking people had faith instead of practicing birth control.
Frankly, I would rather my mother aborted me than had me and beat me the way she did. That's a pain you live with all your life and affects all your relationships. I'm 50 and haven't spoken to her since I was 20 but I still hate her guts. And guess what? DuWayne's right. My religious mother reacted to my sister's getting pregnant at 16 and 18 (so much for church learning) by keeping us locked up tight. Walked at 18 and if I ever go to visit her grave, it will be to spit on it. But, yeah, huh huh, right. Better she should beat the crap out of me until I got big enough to knock her on her ass (8 kids she knocked around, 8 kids eventually knocked her on her ass in self-defense) then abort me. If you think that's true, I've only one thing to say -- FUCK YOU!!! And the horse you rode in on for the record. Go on, ask me, if I had had the opportunity to pick, would I have chose being aborted or being born to be beat up. Funny you pro-life creeps never do ask adult survivors of child abuse their opinions on this matter. Gee, I wonder why.
Crid, the physical act of abortion is horrible? And your point would be what? As opposed to childbirth? I've given birth. You know what my then Agnostic ass thought while I was giving birth? This is hell. Doesn't get more horrible than that. I was also there when my grandson was born. Baby both times was beautiful; childbirth not so much. You think childbirth is beautiful, fucking squeeze a 10 pound lump out a hole that has to be torn wider to accomplish the feat taking 16 hours to do so (after two days of false labor which followed 2 days of attempts to induce labor, totaling 5 days of pain) at a loss of 1/4 of your blood. I'd lay money you wouldn't lay there during the ensuing transfusion thinking how beautiful the birth of your baby was any more than I did.
Do I love my daughter and grandson? Hell, yes. With all my heart, it's what keeps me doing for them. But I'm in a camp of one here I suspect (anyone else in this camp feel free to correct because I do no more than assume). I had a child (note only one: I wasn't doing that again for nothing!!!). But, honestly, if I had it to do over again, there's no way in hell I would. Much as I love them, the price has been too damn high on both my health and my finances; it's not her fault (more her asshole, Christian for the record, father's) but that's the way it is.
Just because Amy thought it through more carefully than I did and had the sense not to have a child doesn't mean she has no right to have an opinion on this matter. In fact, if anything, I'd say we should hear more from sensible people. No, I'm not implying that people who've had children aren't sensible. I'm certain many of them have thought it out just as I'm sure there's many people who don't have much sense who haven't had children. But I'm saying to dismiss someone's opinion who purposely hasn't had a child because they seriously thought about it is ridiculous.
Donna at January 29, 2008 10:14 AM
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