What the hell is wrong with people? When the hell did it get okay to regard your child as your drinking buddy? I mean, who the hell brings their kiddie to a bar, for freaks sake? The longer I live the more I think you ought to have to have a license to have a kid. Pity Mother Nature overrules that. She isn't always wise.

Yep Donna, I agree. You have to have a license for everything else, marriage, driving, etc. But the biggest responsibility a person can have (raising children) anyone can do! Even when most shouldn't.

Having a child in a bar is just wrong. Yeah, that's what I want, a whole new generation that thinks drinking during the day is just fine! What kind of example is that for our children?

Well, here in CT, if said bar is also a restaurant and serves food, it is legal to bring your child, as long as they are at least 3 feet away from the bar at all times. Me, I just think that a bar, any bar, is no place for children. There are plenty of other places that those of us with infants going stir-crazy,” can go! What do they think they want to do, have a shot and a beer while they're breast-feeding?!? o_O

I could see dads bringing older kids along to watch a game at a sports bar, but other than that WTF?

Whoa, wait a minute, you guys! Broaden your outlook here a little. If I had never left the mid-South, I would agree, but since moving to Wisconsin I see that there are drinking establishments, and then there are drinking establishments.

Back home they were called honky-tonks and beer joints. Nobody drinking in such places wanted kids around, and no responsible parent would have taken kids there.

The rural taverns here in German-settled areas of Wisconsin were social centers where families isolated on their farms during the day could sit and visit while they had a beer. Their little kids crawled around under the tables and the bigger ones played pool or visited among themselves or listened to the grownups. Their parents could give them sips of beer.

In towns, some bars have this same atmosphere, and others are more like the ones you all must be thinking of. I never took my children to the rowdy bars in the college town where I taught, but I often did to the quiet ones where my colleagues and I hung out. (My children were well-behaved, by the way.) And now that they're grown up, they have a healthy attitude toward alcohol because they never saw my wife and me, nor our friends, abuse it. And because they got to listen in on the talk of adults who thought of conversation as an art, they are two of the best conversationalists around.

"The rural taverns" Bars in Brooklyn while not a honky-tonk bar sure as hell aren't the taverns your talking about. If I'm a business lunch with co workers or my boss the last thing I need is some freaking kid screaming his head off while mommy drowns her sorrows for having him.

Oh and apparently I missed the 21 and up rule, shit I don't remember that there was a lower limit on that one. I;m shocked at the indignation of these idiots. "How dare they ban my child from the bar?" Are you kidding me there are plenty of places you can go with your kid and have some wine. The local bar isn't it. Now there are plenty of places like TGI Fridays, Olive Garden etc. that are more kid expected places. I expect to see some brat screaming at Olive Garden but the bar? The law says I can't smoke in a bar (NY and MA) and you'd be the first one to call the cops on me. Yet somehow you can bring you under 21 year old child (usually under by a lot) and I'm a bastard for pointing it out.

You accomplish this by acting like their parent, not saying, "Yesss, massah" to their every demand.

Ahh, parenting advice from the childless, always an amusing presumption.

Brandon: Yes we as childless heathens can observe without bias proper parenting skills. We do not need to compare your parenting skills to ours so we have no bias. As this grates on you I can only guess that Amy hit close to home there. BTW do you bring your screaming kid to the bar, are your the ass hole I have to sit next to at a business lunch.

The beer gardens of Bavaria are child and family friendly. Often the tables are arranged in a ring around the children's play area so you can enjoy your weissbier and keep an eye on the kiddies at the same time. But then, they also sell beer in vending machines in hospitals, and regard it as food, and the nurse brings it to you. Beer for breakfast, anyone?

Brandon, I assume you have opinions on plenty of issues on which you have no first-hand experience, such as various politicial issues. While being a parent certainly gives one insights that one didn't have as a non-parent, it also tends to make one very biased about how much the rest of the world loves one's child.

In this case, though, I don't think it's a case of the kids demanding to be taken to the bar. I think it's a case of the parents being unwilling to accept the idea that there are places that aren't appropriate for their kids. Axman, I know the types of places you're talking about, but I can pretty much guarantee you that they're not limiting the presence of strollers. I am all for children observing their parents drinking moderately and responsibly, but that can be done without taking them to adult-focused bars.

Vlad, you know when this started? When smoking was banned in bars in NYC. Now, I admit, being able to go out drinking with friends and come home without absolutely reeking of stale tobacco is nice, but this is one of the side effects.

"I admit, being able to go out drinking with friends and come home without absolutely reeking of stale tobacco" I smoke and I'm with you. I prefer to smoke outside for many reasons, I don't smoke in my own house. You meet the most interesting people when both of you have been cast out as evil heathens. I'm lost as to the application of the under 21 rule. Why aren't the cops busting these establishments. When I was 20 my father couldn't take me to a local bar but at 5 years old it's ok?

"Ahh, parenting advice from the childless, always an amusing presumption."

Sorry. I don't have a dog, either, but I know when one is being ill-behaved or is in a place where a dog doesn't belong.

Let us not forget that you can also bring your dog into restaurants in Germany.

One of my favorite memories: I was 10 and in Germany for the first time. We went to a new place called Maximilian's and brought Momo, this huge ugly creature that my cousins claimed was a dog. He chilled on the ground while we ate (and I have to say that Germany, on the whole, is the cleanest place I have ever been in my entire life. This isn't as gross as it sounds as their hygiene regulations probably make us look 3rd world).

I wasn't allowed to order a beer, though, b/c my parents thought I was too young. I had my first full alcoholic beverage when I was 12. It was a rattler or something - half beer, half lemonade and it. Was. Delish. That und a weinerschnitzel and I was all set. So many great memories...

It comes down to these two things:
1) there's a time and a place
Family place? Bring the kids. Adult place? Leave them at home. You know the difference, people.
2) badly behaved kids are not welcome...ANYWHERE

Axman you're spot on.

Donna >I mean, who the hell brings their kiddie to a bar, for freaks sake?

I do! Even though I live on the shore, it's a relatively small area. I have taken my daughter to our local "bar n grill" since she was a baby. I wouldn't take her to a dive bar (a place that only serves alcohol), but most of our restaurants sport sizeable bars, that are filled from noon to night with our local hunters and fisherman, contractors, local business people, etc., all of which I have known since I was a little girl in these same establishments. The owners will pick her up and walk her around to see the other patrons, and if I show up alone they ask about her.

I think because of the nature of our area our children tend to be more well behaved. They know what behavior is expected for the circumstance or environment.

Several of the above posts seem to deviate from the topic -Children, to be or not to be, in bars- and appear to focused on ill-behaved children and alcoholism. Seeing as how I am both a (relatively acceptable)parent and a lush I feel well versed on this topic.

If the business has an established menu, exceeding frozen pizza and soggy nachos, expect people to come and eat. People who have children eat, and eat out usually out of necessity.

"a moody, dark-paneled bar and brunch spot in Park Slope, Brooklyn" It's brunch people. As long as their children / strollers aren't disturbing other patrons (which I understand they may be at this particular restaurant and agree with them hanging the sign) I don't see it being a problem to take children to a bar/restaurant combo. A few moms want to get out, eat something they didn't have to cook, have someone else clean it up and drink a mimosa or two. They are obviously walking. They aren't hurting anyone - and I really don't see how that is detrimental to their children ... as I said it's brunch. I don't think there's shot being chugged, cursing or table dancing at 2.

Kim >a whole new generation that thinks drinking during the day is just fine!

The only rule that I have ever heard about the time acceptable to drink is after 12:00 noon.

After working all day in a very stressful job, when I get home and my children immediately start, mommy, what's for dinner, have you seen my blah, blah, guess what I did ....... and I feel my shoulders getting closer and closer to my ears, I grab a large glass of wine, simmer down, slap on a smile and tackle my Mom Job nice and relaxed.

"local "bar n grill"" Ok I think we can all agree that a bar and grill is not what we are talking about. Bar and grill do not have signs that say 21 plus. Also a dive bar is more than just a place that serves booze and not food. A dive bar is normally used to refer to a shit hole. There are booze only bars in Brooklyn and Boston that would not be referred to as a dive bar. These are also not the place you bring kids, even if they are well behaved. The bars in Manhattan (NY) and the North End (Boston) are not dive bars and they are not someplace you bring kids any kids well behaved or not.

"Yep Donna, I agree. You have to have a license for everything else, marriage, driving, etc. But the biggest responsibility a person can have (raising children) anyone can do! Even when most shouldn't."

Actually, you don't need a license to drive on private property, only on public roads. Soooo...a license to bring your child into public places? Hmmm.

One thing everyone's forgetting in the debate about bar vs. pub, beer garden vs. Chuck E. Cheese, etc. is that the owner of this place has the right to refuse service to anyone (with certain limitations).

If the owner wants a child-free establishment, he/she can post a sign. If the patrons want a child-full establishment, they can then go elsewhere. Last I heard, Brooklyn's full of eating and drinking places.

Or, those that want the laughter of little children along with their pink elephants and DTs can open their own child-friendly dive bar. Drunk E. Cheese anyone?

Gretchen - that would be a "Radler" which means a cyclist in Bavarian. I guess people went out on their bikes to the beer garden and didn't want to fall off on the way home, so they had this lemonade & beer mixture ("shandy" in the UK). Very refreshing. So is red wine and soda.

"Maximillian" brings back memories too - of this tiny little boy being called by his mum - "Maximillian! Kom doch her!" or something. The incongruity of the insignificantly minuscule being and the grand name bestowed upon him amuses me whenever I think of it. (I once had a little grey kitten. To help boost her self confidence, I called her "Dreadnought". In case you don't know, Dreadnoughts were British battleships, with armour plating several feet thick and enormous guns. The most terrifying war machines the world had ever seen.) But I digress.

Your right vlad. Dive bar was not the correct term. Bar only, was my intention.

I am not advocating propping your child up on a bar stool next to you. My point is that if they serve food in a casual atmosphere, kids aren't hurting anyone, and aren't being damaged themselves, by people drinking in the same vicinity.

> Bar and grill do not have signs that say 21 plus.

Apparently bar and brunch spots do. Who knew? I would think that it would be their choice to enforce that rule (as long as the kiddies were the 3 feet away from the bar, or whatever is legal).

Or, those that want the laughter of little children along with their pink elephants and DTs can open their own child-friendly dive bar. Drunk E. Cheese anyone?

Conan, perhaps, I am more sick than I originally thought. Drunk E. Cheese is oddly appealing to me. (wink)

Gretchen > 2) badly behaved kids are not welcome...ANYWHERE

here here!

Exactly, Vlad. You'd bring your kids to Melville's perhaps but not Cheers itself. I'd hope.

I spent a little time in bars when I was a kid even as young as a toddler. Kids in bars wasn’t really a big deal until sometime in the seventies when the feminization of America kicked into full gear. My mother was a bartender from time to time in various joints. I used to love the bars. When I was five years old, in 1963 and Motown was just starting to boom, the music in the bars was awesome, everybody smoked and drank like hell and weren’t in the least bit ashamed of it. In Michigan, especially in wintertime, everybody went to the bars because the only other option was to stay home snowed in. People got cabin fever and went out. The bars were generally warm and full of people. Women actually wore dresses and looked nice. I’m sure that if you’re younger than thirty, you don’t even know what I mean by that, don’t take it the wrong way. The waitresses were always so sweet to you and would bring you a free cherry-coke, (which was just a normal coke with some of the juice from the cherry jar strained off into it.) I’m still a huge Motown fan to this day.

My mother worked in a upper scale place called the Phone Booth lounge on Michigan Ave in Detroit in the late sixties and early seventies. I used to take my little brothers to the game at Tiger Stadium and walk down the avenue to the lounge and stay there until she got off work to drive us home. We would sit at the bar and eat. I met Jimmy Hoffa, Chucky Obrien, and all the usual union bosses and mafiosos there. When I was about 12, I remember going to this huge biker bar with my mom and uncle called Fat Jacks. My uncle and grand parents all had Harleys back then. It had big double doors that were left open so guys would ride their bikes in and park along the sides of the dance floor. I’ll never forget being in there one night when the band was playing Light my Fire, (I was about nine or ten), and watching the bikes pull in and the girls getting off the back and letting their hair down. It was a whole different world back then. The sights, sounds and smells, the place was alive. There still are some places like that in the US, but they are becoming hard to find.

Now days, the bars aren’t so pc. Anything that is enjoyable is deemed offensive. So most of the pc crowd goes to Starbucks which is kinda a bar substitute. I was talking to someone in the Sunshine bar on the main drag here in Ocean Beach a few years ago and had a small cigar in my hand. I don’t smoke cigarettes but I will occasionally smoke a small cigar, about once a month. I just had it in my hand and I heard some guy scream like a little girl, “AAAHHH, HE’S GOING TO LIGHT THAT!!!” I looked around, and I swear to god, I expected to see some guy with one of those round bombs like you see in the cartoons with a wick hanging out of it and a lit match in the other hand. He was talking about me! I couldn’t help but think what a nation of pussies we are becoming.

>>>>I think because of the nature of our area our children tend to be more well behaved. They know what behavior is expected for the circumstance or environment.

Dena, I think you make a real good point here. Exposing your children to a somewhat adult world gives them some perspective. They realize that they are not adults yet and that they must behave in an adult world. When I was a kid and we were in some bars from time to time, it served to remind me that I was not a grown up yet. I think that is missing in a lot of kids today. Their parents and teachers are trying to makes grown-ups out of them when they are ten years old and they don't learn how to function in a society where the rest of the world is not praising you and kissing your ass. Remember that idiot that was trying to teach his seven year old daugther how to fly a plane and they both died in a plane crash? Kids need to have some small level of exposure to adult life to remind them that they aren't grown ups yet.

I don't take my kids to bars.

And I'm sure most people can tell when kids or dogs are acting up. It's just harder to stop, or prevent, than people without kids think it is.

Chuck E Cheese used to serve beer. It was the only way to lure dads into that Sanctum of Pandiapermonium. It was a Crime Against Humanity when they stopped.

People who complain the most about kids often turn out to be the best parents IMHO.

It's just harder to stop, or prevent, than people without kids think it is.

"It's just harder to stop, or prevent, than people without kids think it is." No no it's not. You know your kid. Just cause you don't have your own does not mean you haven't taken care of one or two on regular basis. Unless the kid is a monster (which is usually the parents fault one or both (or they are in the terrible 2s)) then they will only act up in certain circumstances. If the child is in the terrible 2s stage why the hell should the rest of us have to hear it at a bar, Chucky Cheese or Olive Garden fine. Even those who tend to be the best kids have the terrible two thing. If you kid is tired, hungry or otherwise cranky don't take then running around, unless it's at a grocery store or a hospital/pharmacy it could wait till tomorrow. If you can't read you child's moods beyond a certain age there are three option 1) the kid has something that need to be diagnosed and treated 2) you have no idea what you are doing 3) The kid has something that can't be fixed and is not matter what (really rare) keep them ONLY at child appropriate areas if the will always behave like a 2 year old.

Hey Brandon, A parent here. Amy's right. Indeed, the only parenting "advice" that I disagree with her about, is the spanking

I don't know, it could just be Portland, but the 21 or older rules are strictly applied. I live right next to a bar. At one point this last summer, they were having huge problems with hookers and dope dealing in the parking lot. I went over to talk to the owner, whom I had been told would be there. They weren't even open at the time, but when I went with the (now) six year old in tow, they politely explained that we would all have to step outside to talk, because if a cop happened to see a child there, they could lose their license.

One of the nice things about Portland, is the child friendly environments. There are a number of brewpubs that not only welcome children, but have play areas set aside. I'm not even really a drinker, but there is one close to us, that is just a blast. Even many of the neighborhood pubs without playareas, welcome children in the afternoons, though they generally prefer to see them gone by happy hour.

But why parents would want to take their kids to just any old bar, is beyond me. Need a social setting to have a brew? Do what many parents have done for years, have a playgroup at home, serve wine and/or beer. Or go to a Chucky Cheese, they serve alcohol. So do a lot of arcades and child oriented pizza places.

That said, if you have a kid who can't behave, don't take him to even the kid friendly places. This ruins everyone else's fun. If they just happen to be having a bad day and are behaving badly, instead of playing nicely, do what I do in those circumstances, drag their little ass out of there. There is little in the world of children, that makes me more angry, than having to take my child out of that sort of place, because other kids are misbehaving. Even worse, is when he comes up and tells me he's ready to leave, because some other kids aren't playing nicely.

Sorry that you might be a rotten parent. Sorry if your not, but your kids having a bad day. But taking them to places to ruin everyone else's good time, is just not fucking ok.

I love children, they taste like chicken.

If I had to spend two hours in an Up Chuck Cheese, I'd need more than a beer, maybe a couple shots of Hornitos and half a doob.

I have kids, I also have issues with kids in the bar. I don't like it. The atmosphere, people getting tipsy, talking louder and more obscenely - my kids don't need to hear that.

As far as taking my kids to dinner, we do the more family friendly places. I do however, give the 2 minute pre-dinner warning that they can recite themselves now, "if you do not behave to my standards or do anything to cause a scene, you will sit in the car with either dad or myself and we will be extremely PO'd to miss dinner." They know that this 2 minute pre-warning would be MUCH better than sitting in the car with a very angry, hungry mom and having to listen to me lecture them straight for 1 hour!

To this day, there have been no scenes whatsoever. I now feel I am able to take them to much nicer establishments to have dinner and teach them proper manners.

Which leads me back, sports bars, beer and frozen pizza only bars are no place for kids. Fortunately, the bar/restaurants that I frequent have separate dining from the main "bar area". That's the side to hang out when you hire a BABYSITTER. Not to get junior out of the house and socialize. That is what the YMCA or Gymboree are for.

Side note on Chuck E. Cheese - I won't go there because I get anxiety from all the out of control kids, but I know in Minnesota they serve beer there (or at least did last year). So I have to agree with the comment, that's the only way to get parents (not just dad) to go to that zoo.

"keep them ONLY at child appropriate areas if the will always behave like a 2 year old." I take it back keep them away from the rest of us period. Neither I nor the kid I'm watching is responsible for your miscreant don't punish us for it. Before anyone starts with accusing me of discrimination against the mentally handicapped kids: I'm all for everyone playing nice regardless of disability so long as that disability does not make them wreck the whole thing for all of us.

Ahh, parenting advice from the childless, always an amusing presumption.

You watch me shut some child up -- and I'll do it, and without making them cry. They know I'm not going to take their crap. They can tell who will, too...and it's too often their parents, who'll go through trial and error of 12 varieties of macaroni and cheese when their little darlings refuse to eat what's being served for dinner. When I was a kid, I wasn't of the opinion that I ever had a choice. It was on my plate, it was dinner, period.

Birkenken - thank you.

"If I had to spend two hours in an Up Chuck Cheese, I'd need more than a beer, maybe a couple shots of Hornitos and half a doob."

LMAO...Up Chuck Cheese is a scary place. Kari - I, too, suffer from anxiety and made the mistake of having my daughters birthday party there, that was on the "other side" of the bridge, and you could really tell the difference in how those children and our children behaved. It was a double xanax day!

I don't care how children behave at home, when they are out in public certain behaviors should not be an option.

That is hilarious - no option is right. My mom would say "fine, if you don't want it now, you can just save it for breakfast." I say the same things.

IMHO, kids aren't born picky - they are allowed to be picky...and entitled, spoiled, but I digress...

Brandon -

And I'm sure most people can tell when kids or dogs are acting up. It's just harder to stop, or prevent, than people without kids think it is.

Indeed it is, which is why, when they start acting up, you get them the hell out of wherever they happen to be and discipline them.

Parenting is hard work. I have a six year old with severe ADHD, believe me, I know how hard it is. But you know what, it is rare for people to see my kid act up. Indeed, I can take him into coffee houses and decent restaurants. The reason being, if there is a problem, we leave - immediately. No discussion, no questions, we're out of there. He also knows that if he doesn't behave, the consequences will be rather harsh.

Hell, I can take him to work with me on certain jobs. He loves to work with me, so when he gets to come to work, you have never seen a better behaved child.

Having severe ADHD, he does have impulse control issues that are absolutely amazing sometimes. This can rear it's ugly head, anywhere, anytime. On the occasions this happens in public, he is immediately removed from the situation. The thing is, knowing our child and his patterns, we mostly avoid the impulse control issues, when we are planning a trip somewhere that it would be highly inappropriate for him to have an "espisode." We do this in a variety of ways, not the least being to ensure he has time to run off some of the energy, followed by a half hour, or so of rest before we leave.

There are ways to deal with our children's problems. Every child is different, so what works for one, may not for others. But as parents, we have a responsibility to figure it out for each of our kids. If one can't do that, then they should either not have kids, or keep the ones they already have, locked away from the rest of us.

Bikerken -

I absolutely cannot go to Chucky Cheese without smoking pot first. I don't really drink anymore (I haven't had a drink in well over a year, I'm not averse, I just haven't had the urge), so the herb is the only way to get me into that sort of place. Thankfully, I don't often have to go. B-day parties are the only time.

Amy, those are other people's kids. They don't know you well enough to fight back effectively. Your own kids do. And they will fight back on their terms, not yours.

And for god's sake people, I'm not advocating taking kids to bars, that's stupid.

"And they will fight back on their terms, not yours." That only works if you let them. I was unofficial special discipline person at an ethnic summer camp. I use the same tactic my father used, when respect fails use fear, I got hit once so no I do not mean violence. Use it once or twice and respect works from then on. First don't let the kid get to you, no not easy but doable. If they know it works your DEAD. The little monsters can see your blood pressure (not sure how but I know they can) if they see you getting frustrated they know they have you.

If you don't get heated at all and never give in then the kid knows that tantrums don't work. If it doesn't work they won't do it. Basics of ABA behaviors have a function eliminate the function and you eliminate the behavior, not immediately though. There can be a burst of it out of the blue (extinction burst) if you give in then you have wiped clean all of your work. Mommy/dady is a dictator It's my way and all your screaming doesn't do shit for you. Now unless you want your kid to have different issues there should be some leniency later on but only when they are older and it's a slip up and not direct defiance.

"And for god's sake people, I'm not advocating taking kids to bars, that's stupid." Well you can see that not everyone sees it that way. You gave no indication on how you feel about this.

To add if your kid fights back on his own terms and it gets them in even deeper shit they will stop. Provided you don't let them win. If your letting them win then why the hell would they stop. My brother is the perfect example. He throws tantrums at home (he still lives with the parents) at the age of 25 cause it works. He gets his way. I don't throw tantrums because they never worked. He was sickly as a child and got away with murder.

You mean it was considered inappropriate to take children to bars a generation ago? Damn, someone should have told my father. Not that the goddamn mean bipolar drunk would have listened...

My dad had a bar where he was a regular (here in Northern California). The bartender knew my sister and I. He would give us peanuts, pretzels, and water anytime we walked in with him. He also made sure that the table nearest to him (there were only three tables that I recall) was where we sat. If he had to make other people move, they were moved. We sat right there. When there were fights, and there often were, he'd grab us and place us somewhere that felt "safe". (It's been 20+ years, I don't quite remember where he'd put us.) My father couldn't be bothered. But, he had beaten into us at a young age that we had better behave, so we were quiet and colored or read books while he got sloshed.

That being said, I do not tolerate misbehavior from my kids and stepkids in public (honestly I tolerate very little of it at home). The stepkids are ADHD (plus learning disabilities) and they can have their outbursts at times, but if that happens WE LEAVE. No ifs, ands, or buts. We went out to dinner last night and all four kids were warned that if anything happened I would be walking their butts back out to the car to wait while everyone else finished eating. It's happened before, they know I mean it. We actually had a little old lady come up to us at the table and compliment how they were acting. It was a relatively stress free evening.

But, back to the bars. No child belongs at a "real" bar. The thought of bars still makes me sick to my stomach 20+ years later.

IMHO, kids aren't born picky - they are allowed to be picky...and entitled, spoiled, but I digress...

I can know what good parenting is without being a parent. My neighbors, for example, are terrific parents. They set boundaries.

It's partly because I know what being a parent is that I have no desire to become one. A pity more parents don't figure it out before they extrude children.

There's another issue here too. The owner of the restauraunt simply asked people not to bring strollers in with them. He did not ban kids.

Have you seen the size of strollers these days? They're as big as shopping carts. My jogging stroller is 27.2" wide. Bar and Grills often don't have that much room between the chairs.

As a new father I have had to learn that there are certain places where you just can't take a stroller. Like my local bagel shop on a saturday morning, cannot negotiate the chair field. Or the museum exhibit openings, they're crowded and you can't avoid driving into people's calves.

But don't whine about it and don't let it shut down your life. Situations like this are what they make the baby bjorn for.

I'm really dreading the day that I have to take the kid to Disneyland. They don't serve beer either, except for that expensive restaurant that borders Pirates of the Caribbean.

I am advocating taking your children to bars. Certain bars, during daytime hours, that serve food, and the patrons aren't belligerent - and only if you are an intelligent, involved parent and your child is well behaved enough not to disrupt other patrons.

If a child misbehaves in public, the child should be immediately removed, and the situation to be so short lived that other people would hardly notice.

Poorly behaved children IN PUBLIC are the result of poor parenting. Whether it be laziness, low self esteem or a complete lack of respect for others.

As I have said before, I have a six year old daughter. She is THE most well behaved child. I also have an 8 month old, who was sheer hell. I was not able to leave the house with her for the first 5 months. She was collicky and I would not have her disturbing other people. The last three months have improved greatly, she has a consistent schedule. The point is, I have enough respect for other people to not take her out when she is going to be fussy. As DuWayne said, each child is different. The oldest, even as an infant required no planning or schedule, she was as laid back as they come. Little demon spawn however, required a lot of structure to be happy, and to enable me to even go to the grocery store. BTW she has been to the bar three times now, and everyone says that she is the happiest baby, always smiling ... if they only knew.

>It's partly because I know what being a parent is that I have to desire to become one.

Amy, is this a typo ... or are you saying that you want children?!

"It's partly because I know what being a parent is that I have to desire to become one." I'm quoting you on this even though I'm certain it's a mis print :)

Good grief Brandon, I love how you ignore actual parents, who have something substantive to say, to try to argue with the childless one.

Amy, those are other people's kids. They don't know you well enough to fight back effectively.

Which is why I advocate for non-parental authority figures in children's lives.

Your own kids do. And they will fight back on their terms, not yours.

Yes; and the polar opposite it true, you know your kids. If they are fighting back on their terms, you change the fucking terms. Parenting is not only not a one size fits all, it's a constantly shifting paradigm. Momma and I, are constantly adjusting strategies and developing new ones, because that is what it takes. When you give your child an ultimatum and their response is; "Do it," you have to adjust.

What was working yesterday, or even this morning, may not work this afternoon. What stopped working two years ago, may well become effective again. And sometimes, we have to accept that life is going to be miserable for everyone, now and then. At a certain level of obstinacy, laying down the boundary and sticking to it, means taking away all their privileges, sometimes for fairly extended periods. Having lived through my fair share of them, it makes life pretty fucking miserable for everyone involved.

No, it's not easy. Often enough, it really fucking sucks. That's a part of parenting. As rewarding and exciting as it can be, it also takes some of the misery. The more willing we are to accept the misery when necessary, the less we have to deal with it and the more we get to enjoy it.

I don't think there's sanything wrong with bringing a single, well-behaved kid to an adult establishment in the early afternoon. My parents brought me to many adult only type places and I think it greatly contributed to my way of thinking, e.g. You are not the center of the universe. Sit down, be quiet and you will be fed. I was also a very very well behaved child, because I was scared shitless of my parents. I think I may have been the very last child raised to have a healthy respect for grown-ups.

That said, I think this was about the stroller set taking over an adult oriented place. Yes, they served food, but because they do doesn't mean that groups of children are welcome. One quiet child, yes, but who wants to go to a nice place only to realize that there its beginning to resemble gymboree? Keeping one child quiet is exponentially easier than 5, no matter how you slice it, no matter which side of the kids in public issue you are. This isn't an access issue either. There are plenty of places where children are welcomed, not just tolerated. This is about parents who think that they should be able to do anything and go anywhere non-parents do. No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't have to be chained in the front yard, but you do have an obligation to limit your brood to places where others aren't bothered by them.

Where did all this entitlement come from?

I should also note, if my earlier post didn't make it clear, I am not actually against taking kids into bars. I just object when it is an inappropriate bar or at an inappropriate time.

"At a certain level of obstinacy, laying down the boundary and sticking to it, means taking away all their privileges, sometimes for fairly extended periods." My parents were fond of tossing my toys if i did badly in school. Now seeing what they and I could sell them on e-bay for hurts. But it far less then I make as a rational well adjusted adult.

Amy, is this a typo ... or are you saying that you want children?!

Oops - no, long day, cold fingers. I've corrected that above! (To "no desire to have one.")

I don't think there's sanything wrong with bringing a single, well-behaved kid to an adult establishment in the early afternoon.

Look, I'm kind of a foul-mouthed broad. I say "fuck" or "fucking" for example, in ordinary conversation. I happen to like the word(s). If I am around my neighbors' children, I am very careful of what I say, as I'm sure my neighbor doesn't want her four-year-old daughter to start sounding like a sailor (or me). But, in a bar, I don't want to be watching my language, and won't. And I really don't want kids or farm animals around. Luckily, nobody seems to bring their children or goats around to my favorite local bar...yet.

entitlement? Shit Christina, you would have thought that we had said all single people are banned to childless areas, like booze only bars, cocktail parties and adult only weddings.

I imagine that the strollers were becoming a fire hazard, workmans comp issue or some other liability.

A little off topic, but back to 'it takes a village'. People should be more encouraging of parents that turn out well mannered children. Maybe all places should hangs signs out "No whining, crying or unpleasant noise will be permitted" - but I guess that would shut out more than ill-mannered children.

A little off topic, but back to 'it takes a village'. People should be more encouraging of parents that turn out well mannered children.

Well, yes, let's give them all a big round of applause - and I mean that. But, I still don't want children in the bar. Just as I'm sure you don't want me with a martini shaker or a six-pack drinking on the swingset in the park (I know, I know, open container laws...but how about you and the kiddies get the park, and the drunk adults and I take the bar?)

DuWayne,

I wasn't ignoring you. What you were saying was beside my point. I already know about the ways to discipline and control children.

That fact that it can be done, doesn't make it not presumptuous of non-parents to imply that it is a simple matter of "...acting like their parent, not saying, "Yesss, massah..."

Perhaps I am too sensitive, but it smacks of the chubby spectator at a football game yelling "I coulda caught that pass." Yeah, right.

"martini shaker or a six-pack drinking on the swingset "

Hey, not a bad idea!Camelbaks aren't just for water ;-)

http://lostinthewoods.instantspot.com/userfiles/120606/250/classic_camelbak.jpg

Just be sure to rinse well afterwards...

I think that we can agree that alcohol exclusive bars, night clubs, titty bars, cocktail parties, adult only weddings, various stores that sell breakables, etc. are exclusively for adults and adult like things.

Some places, like parks, chuck e cheese are for children and child like things, and only a parent should have to endure them.

Pubs, bar's and grills and brunch spots I'd like to think of as neutral territory. Where people come together as a community. And why the hell shouldn't I bring my two well behaved children there? They aren't bothering anybody. If language or anything else another person did there offended my sensibilities, I would deal with it or leave, politely.

christina said: "That said, I think this was about the stroller set taking over an adult oriented place."

I think that was the bar owners real deal. That one mommy on the message board said “This was a perfect winter moms’ group place for those of us with infants going stir-crazy."

A MOM'S GROUP?!

Very few restaurants I know of can handle a whole group of mommies, kiddies, strollers, diaper bags, and toys. Very few places can handle Mommy Groups and all their various baggage. I think christina was right and that these ladies were probably taking over the bar and making other customers very uncomfortable.

Kids do not belong in bars, at any time. Places that serve food and have alcohol available are different. I take my kids out and we go to restaurants, where I can choose to have a drink or not. When my son was little, I would meet friends at a restaurant. We could sit and have a drink and some food.

I hate going into a bar and then having to watch what I say because there is some 5 year old kid looking at me from the next booth over! When I go to a bar, with other adults, I feel I should be able to talk about anything I want. That includes saying swear words and talking about sex with my friends! I should not have to temper my language because your child is in the bar. And yes, I have had parents ask me to watch my language. So their kids interrupted my adult time – the few times I got to get away from being a wife, mom, or employee.

I guess the law must be more strictly enforced in Oregon. I've never once seen a kid anywhere near a bar around here. No minors means just that.

I hate loud kids in restaurants, but sometimes I go somewhere I know to expect them, and I deal with it. If I turned around and spotted a kid in a bar I'd panic. I get loud when I've been drinking and even at my best behaved I cuss like a sailor and have been known to discuss things no child should ever hear!

Brandon -

Then yes, I would agree that you are being way oversensitive. No one is saying, or even implying that it isn't hard work to raise reasonable kids, least of all Amy. What she is criticizing, is a all too common tendency with parents. One that I am all about agreeing with. When a child is behaving badly, there are a lot of parents, who will turn and bribe them to behave. While there are certainly worse things a parent can do, that is up there towards the top of the list.

You also seem to think that non-parents should just keep their opinions on parenting to themselves. The problem with that, is many non-parents have a very objective view of the situation. This is true of many lay people and it is true of many child development professionals. My son's counselor, is childless (though she's getting close to birthing her first. One of the two counselors who taught the parenting class we took, is also childless. In many regards, their contribution to the discussion, is particularly valuable, because they don't have kids. They don't bring their own parenting baggage to the table, when trying to help us develop strategies to deal with our ADHD son.

This is not to say that parents can't be objective in such discussions. The counselor that we are going to have for the next several weeks (while our own is on maternity leave) is a grandmother. I have no doubt that she will have plenty to offer and can set her own baggage aside to help us. In many regards, I am looking forward to another perspective on our situation. But the notion that non-parents have nothing to offer, is absurd.

Some of the best lay advice I have received on child rearing, was that of a gay friend, who is a total party boy. He doesn't have kids and recognizes that he really shouldn't. Yet he is very perceptive and a brilliant analytical thinker.

Amy -

Not that I would take my son into an inappropriate bar, but I actually like having him exposed to people who talk like a sailor. Indeed, while I do so rarely, I use such language around him myself. Truly horrifying, I don't object to him using such words, especially as he picked up at a young age, that it is appropriate in some situations and inappropriate in others.

My favorite, was when he was two and a half. We ran into someone who obviously didn't approve of my parenting, while at a playground. She kept making obnoxious comments, under her breath, as it were. After a particularly nasty comment, that he noticed really got my goat, he turned around, looked her dead in the eye and said, "Fuck You." Probably didn't do much for her opinion of my parenting, but it sure made me feel good.

But yeah, I am actually very keen on him being exposed to things that are "inappropriate" for children (within a certain amount of reason). He has seen people smoking crack on the street, which started an ongoing discussion. We have spent a fair amount of time, helping to care for people with HIV/AIDS, which has begun a discussion about sexual behaviors, even though he has a very limited understanding about sex, certainly none of the mechanics. But these and many other things, have laid the foundation for continued discussions and I firmly believe it will have profound value, as he gets older.

That said, I really don't drag him into places where his presence will make the lives of others uncomfortable. Excepting that on one trip to the coffee shop, his presence did in fact, clear a table of folks who were loud, raunchy and apparently a couple of them were getting into rather heavy PDA. The owner, a friend, was more than pleased to see them leave. Unfortunately, he is passive aggressive to the extreme and has a very hard time throwing people out.

A few thoughts:

First, I might be the only poster here who's actually familiar with Union Hall. Mr. Williams' description of the place as "a moody, dark-paneled bar and brunch spot in Park Slope, Brooklyn" is a bit misleading. It is dark-paneled, and it is in Park Slope, but moody? Not really. It's a very upscale, large place (two floors, and big enough to have a full-sized bocce court inside) that, at night, hosts reading series and other events in its basement bar.

The bar banned strollers, not children. I hear locally that the problem was that, in the daytime, it had become a congregating place for the local moms, who would bring their kids in, in enormous, SUV-like strollers, which clogged up the place, and not order much, or anything. There are sofas and chairs in front, and they'd hang there all afternoon.

As to kids in bars, there is a time and place for everything, and it's not always inappropriate. When I and my siblings were small, and my parents were going out for the night, they'd have my grandfather, who lived nearby, babysit at his house. Mom would tell us kids to walk a few blocks from school to McDonnell's bar. McDonnell's was pretty much a blue-collar joint, with a bar up front and a small dining room in back, where you could order meatloaf or corned beef and cabbage. My grandfather would be at the bar up front in the afternoon, hanging with his retired buddies. We'd come in, and sit up at the bar, and the bartender, who knew us, would give us cokes, and we'd sit there and absorb the wisdom of the retired guys discussing world events. All in all, it was a good experience. Years later, when I was old enough, I'd go there myself for a few drinks.

Over the years, the neighborhood changed, and eventually McDonnell's closed. I was sorry to see it go. Three generations of men in my family drank at that bar.

It was located under the local funeral home (Conway's). All of my family's wakes were held at Conway's, and those wakes could go on for days. It was sort of a tradition that someone in the family would go down to the bar at the start of the wake, hand over a few hundred dollars (back then a few hundred bucks would buy a lot of drinks), and tell the bartender that anyone who came in from the McKenna/McEwen/McGrath/McWhatever wake was taken care of.

It was a good joint. I miss it.

You all must have missed my point. I said, I think, at certain times. As in, no, 10 at night, don't bring your kids to the corner bar. But at 4 in the afternoon, I think its ok. And you don't have to limit your conversation. You are in an adult place, around other adults, and if a person wants to bring one quiet child, they know they're not at church

I think this pussyfooting around kids is stupid. They aren't idiots, and by a certain age, they are capable of understanding that some things are for adults and not for them. I think this kid-centered view is what is ruining all of them. This is an adult world, and they are allowed to be out in it if they are capable of behaving. Kids don't need to grow up insulated from cursing and alcohol. They need to be protected from beligerent drunks, but there's a big difference. This idea that you can or should raise your child in a bubble is just silly. Forbidding things around them makes it mysterious. My parents regularly held parties at which there was copious alcohol consumption, swearing, and adult jokes, and I'm not scarred for life. I don't think getting wasted makes me cool, unlike most of my peers.

I actually heard a girl last night brag about how she'd been wasted three nights in a row. I must have missed the memo about how getting drunk was the point, not having fun while drinking.

I think kids will pick up a little bad lanquage anywhere. When I was a real litte kid and sometimes didn't understand what certain word meant, or didn't hear them right, I would confuse them with other words. I was at my baby sitters house and she was watching the Dating Game. I ask her if who she thought the girl was going to pick, "Bastard no.1, Bastard no.2 or Bastard no.3"

I do plan on being a mom in the future, wouldnt bring the kids to a bar.

Dont want to see kids in the bar ever, especially after 5pm when I need a drink. I find the moms more annoying than the kids btw.

Bikerken -

A friend's kid had a great one when he was three. They're sitting in a family restaurant, as he plays a rhyming game. He got to "loner" and the next thing you know, out comes "boner", which caused a little snickering. Then he gets to "stoner", which, due to most of the folks at the table actually being stoners, causes even more snickering. Bad idea. He then latched on to the one that got him positive attention and started shouting stoner and even "we're all stoners."

Lets just say that that got some scowls from other patrons.

Christina -

I think it's you who are missing something. While according to Larry, at the post mentioned bar, this is not the case, there are plenty of bars that it is just not ok to bring a child. This has nothing to do with how it affects the child, it is all about how everyone else feels about it.

There are plenty of folks who just aren't comfortable, swearing and telling dirty jokes, or any number of things they might do in a bar, in front of kids. When you bring your child into that sort of place, whether you care or not, whether your child is an angel, you are infringing on their right to relax and enjoy themselves. That's the problem, pure and simple.

If, like me, you actually want your kids exposed to various things, there are more appropriate ways to do it. Indeed, you can even be creative about it. For example, a year or so ago, we witnessed a gent smoking crack in a doorway (not an infrequent occurrence, even in broad daylight). As it seemed relatively safe, I let my son ask him about it, why he was doing it and what exactly it was. He had a good five to ten minute conversation with the guy, I imagine totally killing his buzz. By the time it was done, the guy was beside himself, apologizing for having hit his pipe where my son could see it. I said, "no, thank you for the explanation."

We have, on public trans, seen and heard a lot fo conversation starters. We even witnessed a couple having sex on the train once, something that I was less than pleased about. Still, it worked out as just another conversation starter.

I am all for exposing kids to all sorts of things. I firmly believe that this will go a very long way towards providing them with a huge advantage, when they get older. But it is not right to do this at the expense of adults who go to certain adult appropriate places, so they can be comfortable and let loose.

Vlad asks "I'm lost as to the application of the under 21 rule. Why aren't the cops busting these establishments. When I was 20 my father couldn't take me to a local bar but at 5 years old it's ok?"

The law says that the establishments can't serve alcohol to minors and the bars enforce that law by checking ID at the door. However, there's no danger that a bartender will mistake a 5 year-old for 21 and serve them alcohol. A 20 year-old is a different story so you weren't allowed in. In most places it's not illegal for minors to be in bars but it's illegal in all places to serve them alcohol.

I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing a single, well-behaved kid to an adult establishment in the early afternoon.

I visited a bar for the first time before my weight hit double digits - right after my parents brought me home from the hospital, my dad took me over to the neighborhood bar to introduce me around. When I was 2-3-4 (etc.), my parents would occasionally travel to a touristy destination where they'd leave me with a babysitter to have a night out with friends, only to look up from their drinks at the post-dinner bar a few hours later to see me sitting at a table with the babysitter and her friends. I always seemed to be doing okay (and I not-infrequently would fall asleep in someone's lap), so they didn't interfere. When I got a little older, both I and my sibling would go to a certain local bar with my dad or both my parents and just hang out with the group; I was 12 when someone first asked if he could buy me a drink. (No, I didn't accept.) I've turned out to be a reasonably well-adjusted adult. I was very sensitive to what people thought of me even as a child - I could tell when people didn't want me around, and I don't remember feeling that when at these bars, though admittedly my skills weren't honed when I was a newborn.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID...there are some factors that, I think, make my experience not applicable to the situations we're discussing now, to wit:

1) There weren't *hordes* of other kids at these bars. Oh, I wasn't the only kid in the resort-ish town who had ever been taken out by the babysitter, but the places we went to weren't overrun by kidlets. Same with the local bar my sibling and I visited. Parents just didn't take their kids to non-kid-themed social gathering places nearly as often (I know my parents generally didn't) - I was the occasional exception to the general rule that these places were for adults, and occasional exceptions to the rules can often be tolerated outside of, say, science and medicine. And, in addition, I was pretty cute, if I do say so myself, and well-behaved. Which brings me to my next point...

2. Children today are much less likely to be taught to sit quietly at the expense of all else. Now, I'm not sorry to think that fewer children are literally having all of the independence beaten out of them, but one can raise well-behaved children without doing that. While there are certainly places where kids should never be allowed - strip joints, etc. - there are other borderline occasions in which kids are banned because of the fear that they'll misbehave. A quiet, well-behaved seven-year-old is going to cause far fewer disruptions at a wedding than a mean adult drunk. The problem is that you can rarely guarantee 100% that that seven-year-old will behave appropriately, and it's harder to throw out a misbehaving kid if the parents don't go along than it is to haul out a drunken ass. Which leads to my third point...

3. Parents today are more likely to expect the world to adapt to their kids than the other way around, in contrast to the environment in which I (and Amy) grew up. My parents knew that people would occasionally curse at the bar; as long as some idiot wasn't grabbing little me by the shoulders and calling me foul names, they didn't think I'd be scarred - and someone willing to do that to ANYONE in a bar is disrupting the atmosphere. I wasn't allowed to watch movies or TV shows where people cursed et al, so my exposure to that was extremely limited otherwise. My parents were always very quick to remove me from situations when I did act up - if I had started misbehaving at the bars in that resort-ish town, it would have been a competition between the babysitter and my parents to see who could have gotten me out of there first. I will bet you cash money that the mothers at the Brooklyn bar were NOT willing to take out their little preciouses when the screaming started. Their attitude seems to be that the bar and its other patrons should adapt to them, rather than vice versa. It's not just that children are "allowed" more and more places...it's also that those places are expected to become 100% "family-friendly" when the kids pop in. Adults who want places where they're allowed to have a bit of legal adult-level fun, be that viewing art or knocking back a cold one, have fewer and fewer options.

We are moving from a world in which people followed a lot of unwritten rules to one in which people more and more only follow written rules. In a world with the unwritten rules that bars are for adults and kids should adapt to the world are generally followed, the occasional kid in the bar isn't the end of the world for the bar or for the kid. In a world in which people say, "Well, there's no RULE saying that I can't bring my child into the bar," kids become a problem. Bars should not be primarily a place for families. When you attempt to do that by whatever means, you disrupt the dynamics and reduce the enjoyment for everyone else. When/if I have kids, I could see introducing them around as newborns at a regular neighborhood bar, but not the rest.

Well, it's time to shake you up a little.

This whole issue is about power and powerlessness, not children; the kids are just the "litmus paper" used to test the environment. I have to ask this question: Why are you behaving differently around your children? You've gone through a huge change in your lifestyle to have them; I suggest that YOUR behavior needs to change if you want children to learn the "right" things from you. I mean, please! Do you really think little Chris won't figure out that there's an "evil" side to you just because you are out by yourself? You're just pretending that you're not really showing him or her how to misbehave. Wrong! You're showing them that they can act in some ways if they hide it. Don't be shocked when they then hide things from you.

Meanwhile, disputes like those around smoking and stroller attendance are just symptoms of your own juvenilization. You're not grown up enough to deal with some minor inconvenience, and so you get public authorities, your "big brother" by proxy, to beat up on the people you don't like. You still don't believe that YOU do not have the right not to be offended even as you might say that to someone else.

DuWayne-
I disagree. I don't think the majority of people would be offended by the appearance of a single child in a neighborhood bar at 4 in the afternoon. But my experience of a neighborhood bar might be different than yours. At mine, it's pretty quiet, just regulars, and everybody knows each other. I don't even like kids, but if Mike down at the bar wants to stop in on his way home from picking up his kid, I don't think it's a big deal.

That said, perhaps my distinction is too fine. I can see how tolerating it in my example could lead to people acting like idiots and taking it too far. In general, I don't support taking kids ANYWHERE in public if they can't behave. And having mobs of them anywhere that isn't a Chuck-e-cheese is just rude.

In many states it is illegal for a bar to admit anyone under 21 years of age. Not merely to serve them alcohol. Yes, a bar could be hit with hefty fines - or be shut down - for having a week-old baby on the premises.

And if an establishment with a liquor license claims to be a restaurant because it serves food, there are typically regulations regarding how much of their sales are food versus alcohol - fail to sell enough food and you're a bar, not a restaurant.

At least in the state of Washington, there is no provision for any sort of business other than a restaurant or bar to serve liquor. The nightclub and the strip joint are each a bar plus something else. (They can TRY to sell enough food to be a restaurant plus something else...)

Christina -

It totally depends on the bar. I mentioned upthread, a number of neighborhood pubs that welcome kids. I also mentioned the brewpubs in the area that even have play areas and are also restaurants.

In states that allow it, I am sure there are even outright bars, that are perfectly fine with a kid here and there (Oregon has a extremely strict 21 and over laws). But most bars are not an appropriate place for kids. There are a lot of people who just aren't comfortable being as crass and obnoxious as they want to be, around kids. Part of the reason they go to bars, is because they are free to be that way.

A scary video about bringing up a child. Actually, this child doesn't seem to be badly behaved, except by omission.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2008/spoilt-pageant-queen-p1.php

Perhaps it's a fake. Sure hope so!

I have 5 kids, and I have always been careful to take them OUT of anyplace where they might be disturbing anyone, except possibly the doctor's office. My youngest is 10 now, but I've long been in the practice of taking them out (one at a time) on "dates" with me to public places. Repeat visitation is conditional on impeccable behavior, and this has always been my ideal of quality time. They learned about tipping at a relatively early age, too.

Until recently, it never came about that I took any one of them to a bar, until I brought my 12-year-old to an open night when I performed stand-up.

Much depends upon how an individual child tends to behave and how they are expected to behave.

I don't know, I think a bar is a great place to take poorly behaved kids. At least you can shove a couple of shots of lousy bourbon down their throats (kids can't tell the difference), then they calm down and the parent and patrons can drink in peace. A good bar keeps a couple of kiddie sized beds just for these moments. Just keep the strollers out, they take up to much room at the bar.