Neo Radical Feminism: The haunting fear that a married woman is giving her husband a blowjob. And worse, in the kitchen. (*)

(*) Actual Marcotte fear, though I can't find her post at the moment, she expressed in a review of a book of marriage tips, one of which suggested heaven forfend, quickies, to help satisfy a partner with raging hormones. And quite literally for Marcotte, two lesbians or gays enjoying oral sex is a radical political act against the man, and a unmarried couple having oral sex is grudgingly okay, but there is a long checklist for the couple to go through to make sure it isn't an oppressive act.

Very good post Amy! Having just turned 25, I can identify with the issue very well. That was a fair bit of personal disclosure for you, no?

Keep up the good work!

I get that most people in their early 20's aren't ready for a serious comittment - but lots of us are, and you should have a little more respect for our relationships.

If you find yourself with someone you love and who loves you at 20, and keep it that way for a long time, you should be considered lucky - not 'stunting your growth' because you don't have a lot of meaningless sex with strangers.

art - you're new around here, aren't you?

Do come back, art, but see Brian's comment above.

And I, of course, recommend quickies:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2007/05/a-tale-of-naked.html

Relationships are filled with little tasks that don’t exactly bring a person to screaming orgasm. A man, for example, doesn’t wake up in the middle of the night with some primal longing to bring his girlfriend flowers, rehang her back door, or clean the trap in her sink. Like sex, these things can be expressions of love, but if a guy’s going to lock himself in the bathroom, it’s not going to be with “Bob Vila's Complete Guide to Remodeling Your Home.”

So, couldn’t putting out when you aren’t in the mood be seen as just another expression of love? Joan Sewell, author of I'd Rather Eat Chocolate: Learning to Love My Low Libido, told The Atlantic Monthly, “If you have sex when you don’t desire it, physically desire it, you are going to feel used.” Well, okay, perhaps. But, if a guy rotates a woman’s tires when he doesn’t desire it, physically desire it, does he feel used?

Actually, we all do plenty of things with our bodies that we don’t really feel like; for instance, taking our bodies to work when we have a hangover instead of putting our bodies in front of some greasy hash browns, and then to bed. For women, however, sexual things are supposed to be out of the question. I think the subtext here is not doing things we really don’t feel like if it GIVES A MAN PLEASURE. And no, I’m not advocating rape or anything remotely close to it. And, of course, if you find sex with your husband or boyfriend a horrible chore, you’re in the wrong place. Otherwise, if you’re with a man, and he’s nice to you, and works hard to please you, would it kill you to throw him a quickie?

are you experienced? heh...

we'd be fine if we'd just stick by the biological playbook, but noooooo! we have to go and think about stuff...

The thing I wonder is how much our use of barrier contraception influences the rise of free and not so free love. It is my understanding that a lot of our imprint on each other has to do with the hormonal influences of copulation with each other. Of necessity we are no longer bound entirely to that... so some things change in approach, and we look at experience differently. So, when you have a fling, and protect yourself, what's the connection? Catch is, not protected, is asking for trouble in a loud and clear voice.

Society's catch up scenerio for understanding... does it have one? In countries where contraception is well known and easily practiced, birth rates are below replacement, seems like. It's a conscious decision, that certainly makes sense for an individual, how does it affect everyone else?

The other thing I have yet to see mentioned is the presence of "beer goggles". Drunk people aren't exactly discriminatin'... I wonder how much that plays into the embarassing 5am parting. "oh, what WAS I thinking?" 'don't worry, she's running away faster than you are...'

People tend to think their own personality is universal. The showiest, most outgoing (if not to say arrogant) personalities are thus perceived as normative. This applies especially to the Fucky Years concept... It gets much more and better press than it deserves. The people who were going to be out there chatting with lots of others and building many shallow relationships instead of a few deep ones (whether sexual are not) are of course going to be spreading their ideas far and wide.

As it happens, the happiest, longest marriages I know of are the ones begun pretty early in the game. And while those folks may have been sexually active before that, they weren't exactly promiscuous. They were paying attention to the people they were with and learning fast. They were looking for someone, and they knew them when they showed up.

Fucking isn't an acquired taste, certainly not on the masculine side. Puberty throws the switch and that's that. But extroversion is not some stage of life or glandular condition of maturity. Mouthy, lonely, intrusive people at cocktail parties don't understand this.

Amy, I see where you're going with this. Humans are social animals, and it's through relationships with others that we tend to grow. But our needs for growth are as individual as fingerprints. You can't design courseware or offer bootcamp for this. It's not like the marine corp, where first you run the obstacle course and then you climb the mountain and then you clean the rifle and then you're a marine (or ready to get married).

From what I understand (said the 49-year-old), a great deal of the behavior called "hook-ups" happens to people who are drinking a lot of alcohol. These people are scared as shit of each other.

The men, because it hurts to risk getting shot down; the women, because it hurts to spend these encounters with someone who won't fucking talk to them, let alone phone next week. And people in those years are horrible to each other. They think everyone else in the world is a sibling who has to forgive any transgression.

Did I just say the same thing in each of 15 sentences? Executive Summary:

1.) Yes, a mature approach to intercourse will bring smooth encounters, but...

2.) That's not the same thing as extroversion.

I suspect that the essayist is unfortunately not in a minority. There are just too many people who don't understand that the desire for monogamy is not counter the notion of free "love." Rather it is just another face of it, as is abstinence. Too many people have this inane notion that if you aren't having the casual sex, you are just repressed.

Having the Sex when you don't really want to is just as damaging as actually being repressed. The important thing is to be true to who you are and what you really want. Yes, that is a very cliche, trite sort of sentiment, but it is also very true. Of course in our early twenties, it is not always clear exactly what we really want and our hormones don't help.

Damn Crid. That was really well said.

I like what Crid said too.

I've been one to sleep with guys as soon as I meet them, or a couple days after. I made a mistake in my first such encounter. But I pick them right nowadays, and we tend to treat each other well.

Even the guy I had sex with one hour after I met him (he moved away) taught me alot (he was a Buddhist) especially in terms of how to control my frustration with events I couldnt control and positive thinking among other things. We are very fond of each other I think.

I like to learn things from the people I sleep with.

If sleeping with random men after brief encounters made Marguerite Fields happy, I might say "more power to her." But she clearly is miserable about her failure to have a close relationship with a man that doesn't ONLY involve sex. If this kind of empty promiscuity is the best that the New York Times can identify as "love" in this generation, than I really fear for this generation.

How interesting! I think the work by Justin Garcia is dead on! Hook ups can really mean something else, like a desire for a relationship. And the idea that an increasing amount of time between when one can have kids and actually has kids makes me think of myself who doesn't want to really settle into a marriage with kids any time soon, so why wouldn't I be having hook ups. Do you have any more stuff to read on that... SO COOL!

My college years were about 10 years ago. I am not sure if things have changed or if it was paticular to that college. Many people where hooking up (or some, just trying) with lots of people for the first two years. But the last two, there was well defined couples for the most part. Most all of the people who have settled had done so by 25. I do know some in their 30s who say that they want to settle down and seem unable to. Hooking-up does not seem to have affected things much in the people I know - see no pattern in regards to hookup behaviour and later behaviour.

If Garcia is correct, women maintain the simultaneous desire for long-term relationships and promiscuous sex. If one holds contradictory desires, at least one of them is guaranteed to go unfulfilled. Life will be lived in a perpetual state of frustrated desire. That's not good. It could have long-term emotional consequences.

It has also become unfashionable to note certain facts about male longings and attitudes about sex. In some rather explosive threads, I've noted the male's evolved "slut defense" that lessens the probability of long-term relationships with promiscuous females, even if that promiscuity happened in the past. This "double standard" is well studied and even has a very plausible explanation in evolutionary psychology. To some degree, men will consider a woman's sexual past before and during a relationship. The "fucking 20's" can have effects on a woman's prospects even after that phase has passed.

"The problem was my trying to meet the standards I was "supposed" to have by telling myself I wanted a boyfriend -- because you were supposed to want a boyfriend -- when all I was really ready for was to have a lot of wet, naked fun."

I experienced precisely the same thing in my early 20's, but in the reverse order. What I thought I was "supposed" to want was a lot of wet, naked fun, and what I really wanted was a boyfriend. I kept telling myself over and over to stop being needy, insecure, clingy, to let go, etc., and sometimes what I was really telling myself to do was lower my standards. No matter how many times I kept telling myself not to care, I *did* care. I *hated* sleeping with a guy, knowing full well he wasn't going to call me again. But I was supposed to keep it light, casual, keep my feelings out of it, and somehow have an orgasm? Never worked for me, although I tried.

And I don't very often disagree with you Amy, but I disagree with this: "...lest you get into a serious relationship with somebody before you've really developed into who you're going to be...and lest you stunt your growth in becoming that person."

When do people develop into who they're going to be? I'm a different person than I was ten years ago, and I'll probably be a different person ten years from now. Wouldn't I otherwise just reach an age where I became stuck in my ways and stopped growing? Why would being in a serious relationship stunt that growth? Why must a serious relationship be assumed to act as poison instead of plant food? If you find a fellow thinker to get involved with, they sharpen your insights and expose you to new ideas.

I have seen that when some people get seriously involved with someone, they hibernate with that person and ignore their friends. But sometimes it can work in just the opposite way.

When do people develop into who they're going to be? I'm a different person than I was ten years ago, and I'll probably be a different person ten years from now.

Perhaps, PJ. But I think our core, or the essential part of us, if you will, is unchanging. We can change our thoughts, and our way of dealing with things and people, but there is that part of us deep down inside that stays the same, no matter what. Our inner strength, I guess. I know I've been through a lot of changes in my 50 years, but in my heart I'm still the same. I'm still just as fierce as ever, but I've mellowed somewhat. I'm still just as silly as ever; I still get just as indignant about perceived injustices, but I deal with things differently now than I did when I was younger. It's true what they say, old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! o_O
YMMV

Flynne, you're 50? I don't know why, but I always guessed you were in your 30's - wow!

I don't remember the "fuck years" as all that great, nor do I think they are all that they are made out to be by those living them now or looking back in hindisght. Hook-ups, or whatever we called them in the 80's, were invariably followed by embarassing, awkward morning after conversations or semi-panicked prayers that I didn't get someone pregnant. And of course, people were freaking out about AIDS a lot more then than today. It kinda took most of the fun out of "hooking up."

I guess it's still normal to go through it, but I don't think there ever was any doubt that I was always on the lookout for "the one." When I found her, at age 25, I proposed six months later and we are still married 22 years later. Did I know that I was at that time the person I was going to be? Absolutely not, and the subsequent years have more than proven that point. The only undeniable correlation here is that I continued to pursue her mostly because she would NOT hook up with me right away. And if she had, I wouldn't have continued to pursue her.

If women are looking for long term relationships after giving it up so soon, they are, I'm afraid, making a mistake.

Flynne, you're 50? I don't know why, but I always guessed you were in your 30's - wow!

Oh yeah, baby! I turned 35 the day after Daughter #1 was born, and I had #2 three weeks after I turned 38. They keep me young! o_-

What I'm saying is that even though I've put myself through the ringer (my 20s were spent being totally irresponsible!) I really haven't changed all that much from the person I started out to be. I still have a very warped sense of humour, I have always crossed my 7's and used British spelling randomly (my teachers used to freak out about it), I've always been a loyal friend until I got dissed, and people who have dissed me regret it, I hear, because I also hold a grudge a long time and it takes a lot for me to forgive, but I will give in more readily if I'm proven wrong. I am quick to apologize. I still crack up over Bugs Bunny cartoons (and quote them to this very day when the occasion calls for it). My college career was very short so I don't quite understand the "hook up" thing in that respect, but I can say I did a lot of hooking up when I was in my 20s and in the band. I've been both a member of the band and a band wife, and have seen a lot of indescretion on a lot of fronts. Also a lot of tears and mistrust. When other band wives would ask me to "keep an eye" on their men, I'd tell them if they didn't trust their man, they shouldn't be with them. And the women, for some reason, always said "oh it isn't him I don't trust, it's the groupies who throw themselves at him" or some variation. I pointed out what bullshit that was, and some would go off and pout, and others would come to all the gigs just to make sure.
Bottom line is, you have to trust yourself, follow your own gut, or instincts, and not worry about others. They're sure not worrying about you! YMMV

The most poignant word in PJ's comment is "boyfriend." In a world of hookups, it just sounds so quaint. There was a silly but admirably stubborn book about this a few years ago. One idea in it went like this: Of course girls grow up to want boyfriends. They want an attractive, successful guy to give them special attention and be concerned with their feelings and interests.

What the book never explained is why popular thinking nowadays is so fixed on the Fuck Years model. It looks like a premature surrender to the fantasies of dim teenage guys. "Well, these boys aren't going to grow up to be the men we want them to be anyway, so we may as well just play along..."

This not meant to indict Amy's thoughts, sincerity, choices, or history in any way. Her specific advice in this comment could probably do a lotta good for a lotta young women. (The preceding ass-coverage is presented as a measure of respect for the fact that she's shared private information with us.)

But on the other hand, we shouldn't ask people to ignore their nature for no good reason. Young women who want something more than hookups aren't hurting anyone. The messages they get from pop culture (MTV, advice columnists, etc.) ought to be as encouraging as those given to girls who sincerely want to party for awhile before growing up.

If women didn't hear that boyfriends were out of the question for so much of their childhood, they might do a better job of chosing them, thus reducing the incidence of divorce, etc. I think this is really important. Nobody, no one is asking women to make good choices in mate selection, and it's getting out of hand.

This is from a short commentary by Denis Dutton about Darwin:

>> Every Pleistocene man who chose to bed, protect, and provision a woman because she struck him as, say, witty and healthy, and because her eyes lit up in the presence of children, along with every woman who chose a man because of his hunting skills, fine sense of humor, and generosity, was making a rational, intentional choice that in the end built much of the human personality as we now know it.

Flynne, I'll turn fifty at the end of October. I'm wondering, do you see your friends of your age doing the same hooking up thing like they did when they were twenty something? I do, to an extent. While they are not doing it as often, they are doing it just as easily. I didn't expect that. I know a lot of people my age who are just a little less sexually active than they were when they were in their twenties. I also have several female friends close to my age willing to be 'fuck-buddies'. Most are single but some are married. I have also seen a lot of swinging with people of my age. I'm not really into that and some of my friends have looked down on me as somewhat of a prude because I don't really like the idea of sex as an exhibition sport. It seems to me that as you get into middle age, when you're not thinking about having kids anymore, it's almost easier to fool around becuase you're not really pressured to find a life partner anymore to have kids. And hell, even if you're in decent shape and still somewhat attractive, you can sense that you're years of good sex are limited, so you may as well use them while you can! YMMV.

I'm 49, and I've just gone through a hook up phase. I agree with the comment that there is no pressure to get a life partner, so you can fool around quite a bit. During the phase, I just wanted to see what was on the market, so to speak, and since I was (and still am) attractive and fit, there was a lot of selection.

After a while, it got kind of boring, and I know that after about a year, I tend to develop feelings for my fuck-buddies, so I'm on a break from all that.

My female friends in their 30s and 40s are either in a relationship that they're not happy with (settling), or have given up on men entirely.

It looks like a premature surrender to the fantasies of dim teenage guys. "Well, these boys aren't going to grow up to be the men we want them to be anyway, so we may as well just play along..."

Yes, absolutely. And it certainly did seem to me at the time that the boys were the ones having the most fun. You didn't see them crying in their Kool-Aid when their relationships didn't last - the more people they slept with, the more fun they had. If the girls could just learn to be that smart and adopt that attitude, I thought, they would have more fun, too!

I had previously been brainwashed by religious indoctrination that women were sullied, unclean, used, or damaged goods if they weren't saving themselves for marriages. I knew how silly that was, and I was trying hard to unlearn it and replace it with something more workable. (Not to mention more fun - sheesh, I've never been married but am glad I'm not still a virgin at the age of 38.)

Wanting a "boyfriend" DID seem quaint, even to my own ears. So I tried the "fake it till you make it" approach. I thought that the reason I didn't get enjoyment out of casual hook-ups was because there was something wrong with me. (Misplaced guilt, etc.) It really wasn't that, though. I didn't feel guilt about one-night stands, I just didn't get what I wanted out of them. (And that would be because I was ashamed of what I *did* want, and was trying to want something else.) To this day, though, my biggest aphrodisiac is a guy who is crazy about me and treats me like a queen.

I think it's interesting that the essays were all submitted by college students. The college environment is like summer camp - far removed from anything that even vaguely resembles the real world. I would like to read an equal number of essays from people paying bills, working full-time, and living truly independently, and see how those essays differed.

It looks like a premature surrender to the fantasies of dim teenage guys. "Well, these boys aren't going to grow up to be the men we want them to be anyway, so we may as well just play along..."

Yes, absolutely. And it certainly did seem to me at the time that the boys were the ones having the most fun. You didn't see them crying in their Kool-Aid when their relationships didn't last - the more people they slept with, the more fun they had. If the girls could just learn to be that smart and adopt that attitude, I thought, they would have more fun, too!

I had previously been brainwashed by religious indoctrination that women were sullied, unclean, used, or damaged goods if they weren't saving themselves for marriages. I knew how silly that was, and I was trying hard to unlearn it and replace it with something more workable. (Not to mention more fun - sheesh, I've never been married but am glad I'm not still a virgin at the age of 38.)

Wanting a "boyfriend" DID seem quaint, even to my own ears. So I tried the "fake it till you make it" approach. I thought that the reason I didn't get enjoyment out of casual hook-ups was because there was something wrong with me. (Misplaced guilt, etc.) It really wasn't that, though. I didn't feel guilt about one-night stands, I just didn't get what I wanted out of them. (And that would be because I was ashamed of what I *did* want, and was trying to want something else.) To this day, though, my biggest aphrodisiac is a guy who is crazy about me and treats me like a queen.

I think it's interesting that the essays were all submitted by college students. The college environment is like summer camp - far removed from anything that even vaguely resembles the real world. I would like to read an equal number of essays from people paying bills, working full-time, and living truly independently, and see how those essays differed.

Sorry - sticky mouse button.

Y'know, Bikerken, I do see some of that, but it's less so among my women friends than my men friends. I have a couple of men friends that actually pout when they get turned down! But then, they're going after younger women. I think that if they were going after women our age, they'd have a better chance. I'm happy hanging with the man I've got, and not really willing to share, and neither is he, so we won't being doing the swinger thing. Absolutely there's less pressure now than in previous years, and I see that in a lot of my women friends, especially the ones who hook up with younger men. They've already got kids, some have grandkids, so that option is totally off the table. But I've also seen the breakups that follow with this, and while some women pretend that it doesn't bother them, you can see that it does.

My female friends in their 30s and 40s are either in a relationship that they're not happy with (settling), or have given up on men entirely.

Chrissy, this strikes me as being rather sad. When are women going to understand that they don't need a man to be fulfilled? I had quite the drought in between the ex and the man I live with now, and it was up to me to fill the gaps, not some random stranger. Fuck buddies always end up breaking your heart; they're holding out for someone better than you (in their eyes), and don't want the attachment that inevitably happens. While they're looking for Ms. Right, they're settling for Ms. Right Now. I don't know of any of my friends who can honestly say that she didn't start developing feelings for her fuck buddy. Most cut it off before it got out of control, but then they just started going out to look for another. Wash, rinse, repeat. You can be lonely even when you're in a relationship. There's a difference between being lonely and being alone. Sometimes being alone is a relief. YMMV

Flynne, I completely second your opinion about fuck buddies.

It makes me think of a guy I know who is 45 years old. Very good-looking, smart, has his act together, and seems like a great catch. He was married once and had two kids with his wife. They divorced after a number of years and he found someone else, the ONLY woman he says he has ever loved. She had never been married or had kids, but wanted to, and he (already with two kids) didn't want to get married again or have more kids. So they split up, and she went on to marry someone else and have the family she wanted. He has only had fuck buddies ever since, for about the last 15 years. It isn't that he is holding out for someone better - he isn't even looking for anything else. He just wants a woman he can have sex and dinner with a couple times a week, and he keeps his emotions totally removed.

>>> He just wants a woman he can have sex and dinner with a couple times a week,

The most over-rated thing in the world is lousy sex.

The most under-rated thing is taking a pretty woman in her best LBD out to a very nice restaurant and getting the works. Great meal, drinks, dessert, good atmosphere, good conversation, music. I love doing that and I don't mind dropping a couple hundred bucks to do it. It's well worth it to me. Sex don't have to happen afterward, but it's usually much better when you approach it with that kind of an evening. Theres no bigger turn on that when a woman gets really dolled up for you.

"When are women going to understand that they don't need a man to be fulfilled? "

I figured this out at a young age, and am grateful for it.

I did the hook up thing in high school and beginning of college. I got attached to some of the guys. I had fun but felt a little unfulfilled. I thought I was a decent catch but no one wanted to DATE me (didn't happen no matter how I played my cards). Which is why I did that whole "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" bit...

Then I realized I was bored with guys. I wanted a companion and was sick of this lack of fulfillment. I didn't blame anyone, not even myself. If I didn't click with anyone then so what. I consciously decided to just hang out solo for a while (which was really easy since I moved home from college to save money/get away from crazy drug selling, underwear snatching roomies).

Then BF came along. We hit it off right away. It was immediately comfortable and we didn't waste anytime get, er uh, better acquainted. The next day I felt chipper and never doubted he'd call. He did, two or three days later per The Book of Rules. We chatted and made plans for the following weekend. He was a good guy and I knew that right away.

2 1/2 years later we're still getting acquainted and still making plans.

Meanwhile, I see my gf's and enjoy alone time. If I said "let's move in together" he'd say "sure" but I don't want to rush it. I need to do my own thing for awhile before I get into a situation where I have to constantly compromise and consider another person. I love him very much but I'm 23 and need to be selfish for a few years (he's 29 so he's had that opportunity!).

I think I'm doing alright - I'm happy and no one's in a full body cast so that's good.

P.S: everyone's shared so much great stuff on this post and I've enjoyed all of you so much!

I'm enjoying everyone's comments too, very much.

I just wanted to clarify that I'm not like anyone I know, in that I'm not in a relationship that I'm bored with, nor have I given up on men. I adore men, and I'm very happy with my 'not-boyfriend', who I've been seeing for around 2 years. He's adorable, and makes me very happy. He's younger than me, and he actually has emotions, which I found strangely lacking in the men of my age group, so I really like that.

I enjoy my friends and my own company, find life fascinating and fun, and accept men as they are. I live in the moment, try to be very Daoist, so I'm very content.

I was married for 4 years, been divorced for about 12 years, and had 3 relationships in that time period, but never wanted to remarry or live together again, even though the guys wanted to.

Fuck buddies always end up breaking your heart; they're holding out for someone better than you (in their eyes), and don't want the attachment that inevitably happens.

I have to respectfully disagree with that. I was never holding out for someone better - not once, not ever. I just didn't want the relationship, commitment or monogamy. I always did my best to find women who felt the same and wanted the sex. I was always clear and upfront about my lack of any interest in a relationship or the big M. And if I suspected that feelings might be getting out of hand, I would end it.

On a couple of occasions I actually developed feelings of my own, so I always tried to be sensitive to what might be happening with the person. OTOH, all I did at that time in my life was play music, use drugs and fuck a lot - emphasis on the drugs, I was not always the most aware of what was happening. But I daresay that none of us gets through life without hurting others or being hurt. Some of us just try harder not to than others.

I would also daresay that while it probably happens that women develop feelings more often, men are quite prone to it as well. Sickeningly, some of the very men that a women might have developed feelings for, have done the same. But they figure that it's against the established rules and never pursue it. Such is life.

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