Time will tell, but what will probably be the deciding factor in this child's life is how the parents will behave when the obvious differences begin to appear as the child grows older, and turns carrots into daggers, broomsticks into swords, or cabbages & cats into babies.

Will the child end up mentally flustered, unstable, or even committed? I don't know, I do know that this FUBAR experiment in feminist "philosophy" is doing no one any favors.

Exactly...do you think these parents are going to stand by whichever way it goes? They might if Pop plays with dolls but as soon as (if Pop is male) he makes a gun with a finger and thumb I have an idea they'll be all over him.

Gender is a fundamental part of identity. Assuming Pop is allowed to play with other kids in a normal fashion, at latest at age 3 he/she will want to know "am I a boy or a girl?"

If the parents refuse to tell the child, this may well cause problems that Pop will have to deal with for years.

I agree with the earlier comment: the oh-so-neutral parents are very likely to unconsciously discourage gender-normal behavior, exacerbating the problems even further.

Child abuse indeed...

What a pair of fucking idiots. Poor kid is in for a lot of therapy.

Uuuuugh. This reminds me of when my kids were small, and we were invited to another child's birthday party. I didn't realize the mom and all her friends were feminists, so I had bought the little girl a barbie doll. When she opened it, you would've thought I gave her a gun.

Everybody was silent (except the girl, who seemed genuinely excited with what was probably her first doll, until they grabbed it away). I learned to be cautious about giving dolls after that.

How awful. Unless you gave a wrapped cow pat, it would have been polite for them to thank you instead of embarrass you. Ugh indeed. The poor child.

I used to pick my daughter up at day care and I remember when she was in the room of kids around a year old.
The staff had a big room with some cribs pushed against the wall for nap times.

Typically the girls would be sitting with an object quetly playing with it on the floor while the boys were running around banging their objects on the floor a crib or whatever they could find. The staff would be busy changing diapers giving snacks and the kids were doing activities of their own choosing.

The kids aren't even cognizant enough to know anything about gender.
There are evolutionary gender differences!

Get a clue people. I feel sorry for the kid.

As Nina said the kid is in for a lot of therapy.

This reminded me of an article I read a number of years ago. The writer and his wife wanted to raise their young daughters without gender stereotypes. The daughters wanted a play kitchen set for Christmas. The parents refuse to give in. Finally on Christmas Eve the father has to frantically search for the present after realizing the girls wanted the set because he loves to cook and they wanted to emulate him.

This little experiment of theirs will NOT end well.
Besides, how do you keep gender a secret?? These people are about a dozen sammiches short of a picnic.

This type of oddball parenting often seems like it's designed to bring the parents attention, not doing what's best for the child. Everybody has to ask (or wonder silently), "What is it - a boy or a girl?" So, Pop, and his parents, are the center of attention wherever they go. Right now, Pop is probably too young to mind - and the parents are enjoying it because they think they're looking so cool - but my guess is that by elementary school, Pop won't want to be the "it" everyone wonders about. My question is: will they then let Pop "choose" a gender (and a better name) regardless of genitalia? I bet so.

Here's my question: what in the blue blazes do they think they're going to do with the child hits puberty? They are denying the poor kid his/her sexuality. I see a serial killer in the making here.

And besides, it's hypocritical. Presumably the parents utilized their gender differences in order to create the child in the first place.

How sad that people choose to screw up their children. Why do people pretend that gender differences do not exist? Just because I want my daughter to have the same opportunities as my sons does not mean I want her to pretend that she is a man. Normal people don't do what these parents are doing so it makes me wonder what other problems they have.

Whatever, Pop will figure out Pop's gender soon enough. It will happen WAY before Pop hits puberty. Unless the parents are living in a vacuum, there will be social pressures, too, from school and from the peer group even if they home school.

Cousin Dave, forget puberty - if they send the kid to school, the school isn't going to let the kid alternate between boys' and girls' bathrooms. And if the child was born in a hospital, there *is* a record of this child's birth, which the school will see.

As for the other question, of what they'll tell the child, I didn't get the impression that the kid doesn't know - if they've explained the boy/girl plumbing, then the kid knows which he or she is. They just don't want the expectation of others to control whether the kid wears a dress or pants or shorts.

But it seems like that's just setting up for a kid that wants to wear a skirt while playing soldier with the boys, and the other kids will reject what looks like the wrong gender to be playing their game.

In trying to avoid adult assumptions about what their child should do, I think they're setting the kid up to be rejected by all the other kids that have expectations about what other kids should do or be like.

Believing that male/female is a social construct is as sensible as believing that orangutan/human is a social construct.

I think the kitchen set story is a good example of why this doesn't work. These parents think they are bucking the "social construct" of gender, but they are actually creating a social construct by pushing the opposite gender behaviors. A girl shouldn't play with a doll, only a truck, and a boy should wear skirts and play with dolls. Or forbidding girls from getting a kitchen set for Christmas (though they would've been thrilled for their sons to make the request). It's still parental and social pressure for the child.

What fucking loonies. I have 3 girls. 2 won't touch a doll, one loves them. WHo cares. They're all still girls. They know it, the rest of the world knows it. Parents who have a kid to prove a (erroneous) social point are pathetic. Kids aren't social experiments, they're people.

>>Kids aren't social experiments, they're people.

Well, they're both, actually, momof4.

But I take your point:)

And yet again I read more evidence for my belief that people should have to have a license to breed. And I thought that kids who died because their parents won't seek treatment "'cause God will fix 'em" were bad enough. But children put through a lifetime of confusion and misery just to prove a political point? Sometime reading the news I feel like I am playing child abuse bingo...

Reminds me of this horrific "experiment":

".....the (13th century) German emperor Frederick II, curious to know what language children would speak if they were raised without hearing any words at all, decided to conduct a little empirical research. Seizing a number of newborns from their parents, he gave them to nurses who fed the infants but were forbidden to cuddle or talk to them. The babies never learned a language. They all died before they could talk."

The whole thing seems pretty stupid and selfish to me, but I do think that the kid will probably solve the problem on his/her own by the time he/she hits primary school. The child is surely aware of his or her plumbing, and, in a group of peers, will probably start hanging out with the other kids in his/her gender group.

When we have kids over, the most popular toys in our house tend to be the Hot Wheels cars and the grown-ups' shoes, regardless of gender...

Anyway, I agree that the parents are idiots, and I don't approve of "experimenting" like this when it comes to a child. What self-serving assholes.

Does anyone have the slightest doubt that "Pop" is a boy?

If gender is just a social construct, then so is race. It doesn't matter if you're black or white! Look how well that turned out for Michael Jackson.

Insanity & an early grave are in this poor child's future, but who cares as long as his parents feel good about themselves?

http://www.moss-fritch.com/medical_error.htm

Link to prove the stupidity of cultural created gender theories.

Identical twin story.

It sounds like experiments I've heard of before. There was a book about a boy, who at near birth was medically given a sex change, due to medical reasons, and raised as a girl with hormon tratments. Feminists hailed it as proof that gender was a social construct and ignore that at 19 or so the kid killed himself.

Unfortunately I think people will know the gender, since male and female traditionally choose very differet ways of suicide.

Those linked stories are truly sad.

If Pop is a girl, this might not turn out too badly. If people see her in a dress one day and pants the next, they'll assume she's a tomboyish girl; as for hairstyle, there's nothing that's beyond the pale for a female, up to and including a shaved head.

If Pop is a boy, however, look for this headline in 18 years or so: "Three Dead in Swedish Murder-Suicide."

First, if you read the article
"Pop" is a pseudonym used by the
reporter who wrote this piece.

Second, I seemed to remember from anatomy class some decades ago that the frequency of genital malformation as a birth defect was about one in 5000 and completely indeterminate sex about one in 10000. A check with Australian public health information (http://www.health.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/313870/bdr_report0102.pdf)
seems to confirm this frequency. Has anyone here considered the possibility that these parents may have a child of ambiguous sexuality and are attempting to avoid the not infrequent problem of arbitrarily assigning the "wrong" sex?

"Has anyone here considered the possibility that these parents may have a child of ambiguous sexuality and are attempting to avoid the not infrequent problem of arbitrarily assigning the "wrong" sex?"

No. And why would we? I read the article, too, and there's plenty of mention of the parents' "experiment." These are two assholes who are trying to prove a point about gender identity using their child as an experiment subject, and it's fucked up.

I felt so sad as a kid when my mom gave me my brother's hand-me-down clothes, did nothing with my hair beside cut it short, and very rarely dressed me up. Prettiness never mattered to her, and she didn't think it should matter to me, either. Granted, she was a very strong tomboy from the start. The only time in her life that she has worn makeup was on her wedding day, and only when her best friend cried in horror, "You're not wearing any makeup!" and put some lipstick on her shortly before the ceremony. She wears a dress or skirt once every few years.

I'm grateful that my mom, who is an amazing person and parent, did not make me a spoiled princess. She did (ever so slowly!) relent and let me dress a bit more girly as the years went by, to my great happiness. But her restricting the expression of my femininity early on, essentially trying to force her own tomboyishness on me, certainly led to some resentment and issues on my part. I cannot imagine what this poor kid will go through.

Every person's expression of his or her gender is unique and should be nurtured in childhood rather than repressed, just like any other aspect of the child's self. The fact that these expressions "stereotypically" follow biological realities do not make them less appropriate. These assholes have neutered their kid! Isn't that the same or worse than "being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset"-- supposedly what they wanted to prevent?!

This is child abuse!

This will most likely backfire.

I recall a case in India where a hermaphrodite was surgically made male. There was a great hue and cry because it was suggested that the child was NOT a hermaphrodite, the parents just wanted a more status-climbing boy.

All this will do is cause far more interest placed on the chile, making them a curiosity, more of a freak than anything else.

Every person's expression of his or her gender is unique and should be nurtured in childhood rather than repressed, just like any other aspect of the child's self. The fact that these expressions "stereotypically" follow biological realities do not make them less appropriate. These assholes have neutered their kid!

But if there is a selection of clothes in the closet, ranging from frilly pink dresses to boys' coveralls with dumptrucks on the front, isn't this child completely free to pick whatever expresses his or her gender? If the child has an assortment of toys to choose from, isn't the choice an expression of gender? I don't think a kid has to be told "you're a boy" or "you're a girl" to know what he or she would prefer to wear or prefer to play with.

And it's possible that these parents are making a complete muck of it. But it's also possible that they are making it possible for this child to play with toy guns one day and a toy stove the next without any adult ever suggesting that one or the other is inappropriate for that child.

To the extent that gender is innate and biological, the lack of others nudging in one direction or another will not stop that gender from being expressed.

Now, if this kid goes off to school at age 5 and is suddenly, for the first time in his/her life, told that it's inappropriate for a little (insert gender here) to play with (insert toy here), that's going to be confusing and/or humiliating.

I agree with you, Jen, that Pop should be free to play with/wear whatever his/her choice is, but I just don't see why they have to hide his/her gender from the world.

Really, people are so much more aware than that these days. This isn't the 50s. I honestly don't think anyone is going to push toy guns on him or dolls or an easy-bake oven on her. Most of us who have been parents past these early years realize our kids DO choose. My daughter varies from tomboy dress to frilly girly-girl clothes whenever she pleases. My son wears whatever he wants. He's been "emo" to hippie to now choosing preppy clothes.

First-time parents do a lot of crazy things because they worry about stuff they really don't need to worry about. Hopefully, they'll look back on this "experiment" and laugh. But that's only if they end it fairly soon because otherwise Pop could become the target for bullies, and trust me, that is a MUCH bigger concern for his/her emotional well-being than the gender construct issue.

How DARE anyone here criticize anything feminist-related. Bunch of misogynists!

The Empress' new clothes are just LOVELY!

"I didn't realize the mom and all her friends were feminists, so I had bought the little girl a barbie doll. When she opened it, you would've thought I gave her a gun. "

Maybe you should have given her a gun. That would have been gender-free enough.

This bullshit is right on par with the evil morons who refuse medical care for their children on the basis of their precious personal beliefs. It is all child abuse.

Seriously, I think you all are worried too much.

Odds are the kid is going to develop the sex-appropriate gender identity, and the parents will be disappointed.

BTW, this was also on Salon a while back... if you are reading the Salon stuff, you should post the link to the male rape article, it is very sad and horrific, and more important than the antics of a couple attention-seeking Swedes.

Save yourself some time and read this.

If you were completely wrong, well, sorry. Now you can fix that.

He'll grow his hair, wear black, embrace adnrogyny, have difficulty with relationships, and end up fronting a Swedish emo band.

If Pop murders Pop's parents I hope the jury acquits.

My God, what a bunch of closed minded imbeciles seem to congregate here.

Who the hell are any of you people to tell this couple how to bring up their child? You don't even live in the same country as them. Personally, I would not choose to raise my children this way, but as a libertarian I believe that people should have the choice in raising their children how they want and not by my standards.

It's unbelievable how many Nazis there are on here, who think that it is acceptable to force everyone to have their own views. Now that is what I call political correctness, the imbecilic nay saying of anything that might be different. This couple decides to raise their child in a politically incorrect way (have no doubt about this, to do something this different is not politically correct,) and all they get is scorn. How utterly stupid, pathetic and hypocritical.

James, chill.

The expression of a dissenting opinion is not "forcing" someone to have the views of the expresser.

And, yes, this is politically correct. It is political correctness run amok.

The view that society and socialization cause gender differences IS political correctness.

The acceptance that boys generally gravitate to certain ways of playing and girls generally to another is politically INcorrect.

And being a libertarian doesn't mean being so open-minded that your brains fall out.

Conan,

Clearly you have no idea what political correctness is. 'The view that society and socialization cause gender difference' is a theory. If the parents want to take this theory to its logical limits who are you to say that it is wrong? You are clearly so attached to the idea of being 'politically incorrect' that you don't even notice how you just parrot the ideas of what you consider to be the 'correct' ideology. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Why don't you worry about your own kids, rather than this couples kids as I would imagine they are probably pretty delinquent with having such a moronic parent.

Political correctness, of course, being the cure that is worse than the disease.

James, are you a parent? I rather doubt it. If you were, you probably would be just as angered as some of the people posting here. Save your self-righteous indignation for more important matters. (And if I were you, I wouldn't brag about being a libertarian just now. That's not the way to curry favors and gain acceptance with the "politically correct" these days.)

Just sayin'.

PS How 'bout that bass line to "Badge"? One of my faves! (Cream, circa 1967, doncha know.)

'The view that society and socialization cause gender difference' is a theory.

Pardon me, but PENISES and VAGINAS "cause" gender difference. Are you stoned or just stupid?

Umm Flynne, that line was a quote from what Conan said, that's why it was IN QUOTES. And you call other people stupid...

"And if I were you, I wouldn't brag about being a libertarian just now. That's not the way to curry favors and gain acceptance with the "politically correct" these days."

Good lord, how retarded are you? You see I am not worried about being 'politically correct' neither with you, or Obama or anybody. Just because you don't like Democrats doesn't make you politically correct. You are really laughable aren't you? I certainly hope you are not a parent because your kids will definitely be in prison before long.

James you're such a tool. You obviously don't have children. Thanks for answering my question. Straw man much? You're not worried about being politically correct? Then why do you think you have the right to tell anyone else they're wrong for expressing an opinion? I'm retarded, eh? No, I'm blessed that I'm not YOU.

What I said stands. I was stating that even though you think what Conan said is a "theory", when it comes down to the physical, penises are penises and vaginas are vaginas and THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. There is NO "cause" there. Either you're born one way or the other. Theory doesn't enter into it. I wasn't arguing the point, just making it a little easier for you to understand.

Amy,

What part of "I would not choose to raise my children this way" did you not understand?

I merely say that this couple has the right to raise their child this way if they so see fit and would add that there are a lot worse things that they could be doing, such as raising their child to become a suicide bomber.

True this is fundamentalism and I don't support that for myself but I don't care if my neighbors raise their kids as fundamentalist Christians, no matter how stupid (or stooopid) I may think that is. How many hundreds of millions of people in the world raise their kids to be Fundamentalist Christians or Fundamentalist Muslims or whatever? You're going to get all outraged over ONE family of feminist fundamentalists? It seems irrationally disproportionate.

Just because you don't like Democrats doesn't make you politically correct.

I don't??? How the fuck would you know whether or not I do? Cast aspersions much? I like a freakin boatload of people, and not because of their political leanings. What is wrong with you? Seriously. What's up with that over-inflated sense of superiority? You probably couldn't lay down a seriously rightgeous basss line if your life depeneded on it.

"Praise You" by Fatboy Slim. I bet you never even heard it.

Flynne,]]read my response to AMy, but you as well seem to not notice that I do not think that this couple is correct in their philosophy. I just don't see it as any different than other ways of bringing up your kids that I don't agree with like fundamentalist Islam or Jehovah's Witnesses or what have you.

Oh and Flynne,
Unbelievably, because I don't believe in coincidence, that song was on the radio today. Praise You, I mean, the Badge is before my time. You are of course keaving out the greatest bass line of all time- Guns of Brixton
by the Clash.

I ddid notice, and I apologize for my oversight. But it IS different, James. For the record, I'm a witch. Not Wiccan or any of that, just a hedge witch. I have 2 daughters. Ages 16 and 13. When the 13 year old was 6, she asked for, and received, a Hot Wheels Race Track set. She played with it for a while but then lost interest. I gave it to the boys next door, with her blessing. My point is that "Pop's" parents are playing with this child, making an experiment of him/her, which in anyone's book is wrong. My girls, they neither of them ever played much with baby dolls but had a plethora of stuffed toys. But I NEVER kept their gender from them or anyone else, as these parents are doing. I believe it it wrong to do so. Apparently many other people agree.

"Praise You" is a damn good song, ain't it?
Give a listen to Cream some day, "Badge" is one of their better songs. "tales of Brave Ulyssess" is rather tedious, so don't judge them by that one. Didn't mean to leave out the Clash. There's just so much good shit out there. (and, yeah I'm old. maybe that's why I'm so cranky when it comes to shit like these idiot parents.)

No point wasting time on James. He's either a particularly immature 15 year old, or else a troll. I'll bet he's not even a bass player. Why even bother to swat him?

Judging from the kids in my life, kids start asking gender/sex related questions really early on. I think it's better to answer such questions as honestly as you can, consistent with the kid's age and level of understanding. Sure, Pop is going to figure out whether he's a boy or a girl eventually. But the thing is, I think he/she will eventually (and sooner rather than later) resent that his/her parents used him for a social experiment. It reminds me of that chick flick, My Sister's Keeper, where the parents had the second kid just to harvest blood or spinal fluid or whatever it was for the first kid. How do you get over the fact that your parents regarded you as an experiment?

I give my little nieces all kinds of toys. They all love the dolls and dress-up stuff, but they also play with the Sesame Street tool bench and a remote control car and the sports stuff. I think that's great. But the thing is, no one's forcing them to play with the tool bench, or forbidding them to play with dolls. I bought the bench and car (along with the princess carriage and the dolls) simply because they looked like something I would have had fun with when I was a kid. And while one niece is a little tomboy, and the other two are girly-girls, that all know that they are GIRLS! And they like it that way. The best favor you can do for a kid, I think, is to make them happy with what they are. How can they be that if you've done your best to prevent them from knowing what they are?

I know this is off-topic, but where is T's Grammy? Has she stopped posting or changed her name? I realize none of us know each other and anyone can disappear, but is there a reason that she hasn't been posting? Just asking you regulars.

"Either you're born one way or the other."

Umm. Actually, no. Gender ID is not binary.

And you don't need just one article about the "gay gene" - you can find dozens of articles.

It takes some time to read the subject, but it covers the entire issue of gender ID well enough to dispose of tedious anecdotes about Aunt Jean or the kids next door.

Gender ID is not a choice, and it is not "picked" by parents or the community. If you thought so, well, that's what I meant by "completely wrong", and the link will show you just what you've missed for, oh, decades.

"For the record, I'm a witch. Not Wiccan or any of that, just a hedge witch."

I learned something new today, Flynne, because I had to look up "hedge witch." Anyway, from your comments, you always sound like a really nice person with a lot of common sense. (If you don't mind a wise-ass like me saying so.) Purely on the basis of you (I don't know any other witches), I'm going to officially let go of any witch stereotypes I had hanging around in my head. If it weren't waaaaaay off topic, I'd ask you a bunch of questions about it. I'm quite curious! Will have to do some more internet research.

OK, I'm done hijacking now.

I remember T's Grammy. You're right, haven't seen her post in quite a while.

...that line was a quote from what Conan said, that's why it was IN QUOTES. And you call other people stupid...

No, James, that was a partial quote. You added the last part of the piece Flynne was quoting yourself - changing the meaning of the sentence.

"If the parents want to take this theory to its logical limits who are you to say that it is wrong? "

It's wrong.

It's one thing to allow a children to be themselves. It is quite another to treat your child like a lab rat because you are on some gender identity crusade to prove a theory. There is manipulative intent behind this. These people are selfish bastards.

I'm with Amy. This is child abuse.

Look, maybe I made the point badly by calling people idiots and Nazis (right of you to point that out Amy,) but let me put it this way.

A lot of peopel have asked if I have children. I have one child, a daughter. What I didn't have for most of my childhood was parents. And really what I had instead was an entirely fucked up situation. So, with my daughter, what I am trying to do is raise her to the best of my ability and do what I think is best for her. And I honestly believe that this is what the couple in the article are doing. It doesn't matter a jot to me that this couple's philosophy of life is different than mine, I appreciate that they are at least doing what they think is best for this child, which quite franlky in this day and age is more than you can say for many couples.

Sorry for dragging my BS into this...

"Sorry for dragging my BS into this..."

S'all right, you apologized. We've had too many people calling each other Nazis today, but you are the first to apologize for it. Now I believe you're a bass player.

I generally agree with you that we should butt out of other people's lives. In this case, I think what most of us are worrying about is that these parents are not in fact "doing what they think is best for this child", but instead are using the kid as a social experiment. Unfortunately, not everyone puts their kid first or thinks about what might be best for him.

Who was the dude who put his daughter in a box, back in the 50's or 60's? That's going to drive me nuts. I'm going to have to find his name.

Flynne:

I so dig Witches. I know a few. Ya'll are a fun bunch.

You sound like a good mum!!!

And I soooo wanted tonka toys and GI Joes growing up, but they were always refused. I did get a skateboard though. :)

I always knew I was a girl. I just didn't like wearing dresses or playing with Barbies. I always had a better time playing with the boys in my neighborhood. Mostly because I had crushes on many of them and they did some really fun shit. Fishing, catching crawdads in the creek, dropping cap darts off roofs, playing baseball in the court...

Gail- psychologist BF Skinner, as in Skinner's box. http://www.snopes.com/science/skinner.asp

I think that's who you're thinking of

Shannon, thank you. That is exactly the guy I was thinking of, I was just blanking out on the name. I'm fascinated to read that the account my undergraduate psych professor gave was wrong. But as I read that Snopes article, part of the fault for the misinterpretation goes to Skinner. If he was going to tell people about his box, he could have done a much better job explaining the box and what he was doing with it! Dude needed a press agent or a spokesperson or something. Well, now I've learned two new things today.

Anyway, it sounds like Skinner did have good intentions. There are still some parents that don't, though.

My two children are much like Miss Alkon's neighbors.

My daughter is every inch a princess, loves pink my little ponies, disney princess characters, dolls, tea parties, and dressing pretty before and after her ballet practice. I told her French was a princess language, suddenly she couldn't start using Rosetta Stone fast enough.

My son is every inch the little builder, trucks, transformers, and when he finds my kevlar around it goes right over his head to play soldier, and he couldn't have been happier to start judo lessons.

Long and the short of it is that no one whom actually HAS children of both sexes can long argue that there are no inborn differences. The parents of "pop" are first time parents I'll wager.

The problem james, isn't that these swedish nut balls (I had to try very hard not to make a meat balls pun just then) are adherents to a particular philosophy, they're not just "different", they're trying a philosophical experiment on a living breathing human being. Imagine if you will if a parent decided they wanted their child to be gay, and tried to shape their sexuality in that direction, or tried to force a gay child to be straight. Put it in that perspective, and you'll see what people here are getting impassioned about. We're talking about parents trying to neuter their child, people who will go that far in the early stages...do you really think that they'll lighten up and let the child swing "to far" in one direction or the other? Or are they going to take the swords away from a boy or the dolls away from a girl, are they going to let the child BE a particular gender, or when they realize that "pop" born a boy, is actually acting like every other little boy on earth, are they going to try to isolate him from other little boys so that their "gender nuetral" child is not "contaminated" by the "socially imposed gender constructs of a myopic western civilization" you tell me.

I believe that what you think is that these people are just being very open minded, and if that were the case, I'd be all for it. I'd say more power to them, no harm in a tomboyish girl, no harm in a boy that likes to cook.

But what you see as open mindedness, I believe reflects a much more severe closed mindedness that will inevitably manifest itself when the child does not remain "nuetral" in the eyes of the parents.

Rather like the feminist parents that didn't want their daughter to have a doll on her birthday.

Got to look more closely at these things James. People who do not see the obvious, do not welcome it when it is rubbed in their faces.

Oh and by the way James, there is a saying about debating on the internet, I don't recall it precisely, but it goes something like this:

"The one who mentions Nazis, has lost the argument."

If you're debating WWII or racism, I suppose that might not apply, otherwise, drop the Nazi thing, it makes everyone and anyone who uses it out of its historical context sound like an idiot.

"Imagine if you will if a parent decided they wanted their child to be gay, and tried to shape their sexuality in that direction, or tried to force a gay child to be straight. Put it in that perspective, and you'll see what people here are getting impassioned about."

Ok, I imagined it. Now I'm imagining a parent deciding they want their child to be 'straight' and' tried to shape thjeir sexuality in that direction.' You're right it sounds awful. Please direct me to an example of people here getting so impassioned over that, I mean, I'm sure there is one, otherwise you would be a reamrkable hypocrite.

Gender ID is not binary.

Raddy, honey, I know that. I was talking stictly physically. Physical gender is unmistakable. You're born with it. What you do with it (as opposed to what your parents may try to make you do with it) is totally up to you.

Gail and Feebie, thanks for your kind words. They are appreciated. Gail, you can email me any time. I'll post my email. Anyone else wants to email me, that's okay too.

Robert, your post said it all! o.O

...stictly should be stRictly...too early...need coffee....-.o

A hypocrite James, is a person who says one thing and does another.

I can't point you to an example of people getting upset over that "here".

But the reason is simple, that discussion hasn't occured. Our lady of advice hasn't, to my knowledge, posted an article or critique on "straight camps" or other B.S. most discussions on here revolve around either specific political or religious aspects, or specific gender or philosophical topics, ergo that particular subject has not come up. There have been discussions over homosexuality, but chiefly as it relates to other cultural issues, parental interaction with a child developing a homosexual identity, and the parental coping mechanisms and/or reactions to that emergence, hasn't been mentioned. Though now that I think about it, I'm a bit surprised it hasn't.

That said however, were it to come up, though I am not a gambling man, I would wager my bottom dollar that most of the people here, myself included, would find trying to force someone into an ill fitting psychosexual mold, to be as irresponsible and damaging as it is cruel and perhaps even abusive. The argument which people make here, is that by trying to force a gender nuetral state onto someone from birth, is exactly the same, and will lead to the same damaging results. You think the parents are just being "different" in their style than yourself, wouldn't it be, to borrow your phrase "remarkably hypocritical" to not call the parents who try to force straightness onto a gay child, "different" in the same exact way?

Yet you don't...the ones who try to force "normalcy" onto a child...they're bad, or "awful" in your words. Yet the ones who try to force a "blank slate" for lack of a better phrase...they're just different.

Whom then becomes the hypocrite James? After all you explicitly state two diametrically opposing opinions about the exact same issue, differing only in the actual perspective of sexuality & gender roles.

Physician heal thyself.

Or, to close with a more ironic twist, a biblical quote:

"Take the beam out of your own eye, before worrying about the splinter in mine."

P.S. A request to Miss Alkon, James does raise, albeit accidentally, a subject worth mentioning. I do not know if your research has ever taken you into the arena of parental reactions to a counter-cultural development of child sexuality, i.e. how different groups of parents react to a child developing homosexual preferences, but it WOULD be a fairly good subject for discussion. If your research has touched on that, a few articles would be more than welcome and certainly worth discussion.

Seems to me Pop will be ok precisely BECAUSE of the innate gender differences.

I think Pop will figure out Pop's gender at a very young age, and likely not even remember any of this ever happened. In nursery school Pop will gravitate towards other children of the same sex, and play those types of games.

That is why I am not terribly worried about Pop.

In some ways I agree with you NicoleK. My thinking though, is that Pop's parents will not react well to having their noses rubbed in reality. People so dedicated to feminist philosophy that they would attempt to eliminate the concept of gender, will not likely say, "Wow, my philosophy is bogus, I'll change my ideas."

No, I think they will as time goes on be more and more agitated & forceful about the idea of a unisex, and I think that if poor little "Pop" is not socially isolated at the get go, that this child's parents will create that isolation in order to preserve the integrity of their philosophy & "experiment".

I think they'd sooner ruin the kid than their philosophy.

Perhaps I'm being a cynic, perhaps I'm being harsh...but I don't think so.

I don't think so because they're deliberately setting up a child for years of social ostracism and emotional pain.

Its one thing if a child gravitates towards femininity or masculinity on their own, and has their parents support, its quite another to force that on a child knowing it is going to cause them untold problems, all in the name of one's own "philosophy".

The problem is that it's very unlikely that the parents have no bias. Just like the feminist parents at the party - they clearly had a bias towards not wanting their daughter to play with dolls, even if that's what she would've chosen. Although the messages may be subtle, they preferred her to behave against her gender, or at least not be a "girly" girl.

I have the advantage of having now watched these kids grow up, and the girl seems ok. She's performs well academically and socially, and though she's surely not a cheerleader or prom-queen type, she isn't boyish either. Of course, she's probably a feminist like her parents.

We parents do influence our kids by example, even when we try not to, so to a certain degree, that's normal. I just think this is extreme, and I also worry because, psychologically, kids need to identify with the same sex parent. They know this occurs at an early age, so I wonder how Pop can do this effectively if he/she isn't sure of his/her gender.

Referring to Radwaste's "Gender is not binary",
if you were the parent of one of the one in 5 to 10 thousand children of physically indeterminate sex, would you arbitrarily enforce one orientation, or watch and wait to see what the child's natural inclination might be? In the political-social climate of 2009 what tactic would you use to allow the child to find its sexual identity?

I would just try to keep things neutral. Boys and girls both wear jeans and T-shirts to school these days. There's no reason to force a dress on either gender (and many girls who absolutely won't wear one). Boys and girls mostly play the same type of video games, and there are lots of neutral toys.

Then, if my child began to clearly identify more with one sex than another, I would support that, understanding that this might not happen until puberty or beyond.

Researchers are discovering that sexuality is more of a range rather than a set point on a gender scale. Most of us fall somewhere in between, rather than strongly straight or strongly gay, though males tend to be more polarized either way.

To me, it's different to put dresses in a little boy's closet if he hasn't specifically asked for them. If a boy begs for a dress or a doll in a store, that's one thing, but expecting a child to experiment "equally" with both genders seems confusing - and especially cruel to a young boy when he's unaware of how wearing a dress will be perceived. A parent should ask, "If he knew the social stigma, would he really choose to wear that dress? Is wearing the dress really that important to him?" And, well, for some boys, the answer might be yes. Then, you know you have a pretty clear indication of sexual indentity.

Anyone who raises a child in the cesspool of feminist ideology is a child abuser, condemning their child to a life of unhappiness.

If he gets teased for wearing a dress, he will stop wearing dresses. They aren't forcing Pop to wear anything. Pop's gonna figure out what to wear and what not to wear pretty quickly. And most people don't remember stuff before the age of four, anyways.

Frilly clothing on toddlers is hardly unusual, hell, in victorian and edwardian times boys wore frilly dresses all the time. Teddy Roosevelt grew up ok. I know these aren't victorian times, but I believe pop will be wearing gender-appropriate stuff before it gets old enough to matter.

It's not like being a Jew, which is something you can't change. If Pop's a boy, the frilly dresses will be out of his closet before kindergarten.

They can't isolate themselves to the point where it won't be. Unless they move to an island or something. Even if they homeschool they will run into other people and kids.

I think these people are deluding themselves, and that Pop will choose Pop's traditional gender. Before the age of five.

And no one will care what Pop wore when he was two.

Funny, I'm also assuming Pop is a boy...

... especially in Sweden where kids run around naked a lot.

NicoleK, for the child's sake, I hope you're right.

lovelysoul, it's true that sex characteristics fall on a continuum. But don't make the mistake of assuming that they follow a bell curve; I'm pretty sure clinicians would tell you that that isn't the distribution. (If it was, the majority of us would be androgynous and bisexual.) With regard to sexual identity, most people tend to fall fairly definitely into one camp or the other, to varying degrees. And we observe that people who get trapped in the middle, so to speak, have a lot of psychological problems -- it's not a healthy state to be in.

I'm also fairly convinced that sexual identity and preference in a sex partner are not the same thing -- related, maybe, but not the same thing. Going back to what I said above, people who are truly bisexual seem to be able to live fairly normal lives, whereas people who are "bi-gendered" appear to have a lot of problems. Hmm... I'll try to go dig up some data.

I swear I think this was an episode of some TV show I saw. But it's not true to say people don't remember what happened before the age of 4. They might not consciously remember, but it's a part of their wiring for the rest of their lives -- which is not to say they can't overcome it.

"I got teased for being a Jew."

That's your own stupid fault for not converting to Christianity! Typical politically correct nonsense, blaming others for your own deficiency. You are as bad as these nutjobs from Sweden with your whining.

I notice a couple of people are arguing that this kid might be a hermaphrodite, and that it's cruel to force a hermaphrodite into a gender identity because it might not apply.

That's actually an interesting argument, but with all respect, it doesn't apply to Pop. The article makes it clear that although the the world in general doesn't know what sex the kid is, the parents and those who change the kid's diaper do. The kid's sex isn't "physically indeterminant". The kid is either a boy or a girl.

Okay, don't miss the meaning of the link I posted. Gender ID also is not "male, female, freak".

There are males busting shirts who are fem, and little delicate guys who are hounds. Meanwhile, the Playmate of the Month may not even be interested in sex. It's not likely, because these people are the outliers, statistically - but rights do not depend on your equipment. At all. When they are made to do so, there is an injustice to be fought.

"That's your own stupid fault for not converting to Christianity! "

Nice attitude...bet you've got a lot of friends. Are you sure your name is Rudolf and not possibly Adolf?

I swear I think this was an episode of some TV show I saw.

Maybe, but it definitely was a short story: http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1850

On another note....I think this is ridiculous and am rolling my eyes at the parents, but y'all do realize that this precious little "experiment" is only going to last as long as the kid is too young for school, right? Even if the parents still refuse to ID the gender and the school goes along with that (somewhat unlikely -- which bathroom would the child use?), during the first week of school, one of the kid's classmates will get frustrated by the gender question and will convince Pop to play doctor, pull down his/her pants, or something along those lines, and the word will be out. Kid will likely then grow into a hyper-genderized being (i.e. if a girl will demand ruffled pink dresses and later cheerleading participation, if a boy will demand big toy guns and later wrestling participation). This has a built-in termination date.

Now, the issue of gender indeterminates -- and those born feeling as though their brain is a different gender from their body -- are a different story. I'd have some sympathy for the parents if that were the case here, but I think they've made it clear that it's not.

Increasing your SEO organic rankings is easy with Xrumer. One of the most crucial parts of SEO and ranking well in the search engines is acquiring a lot of backlinks. Acquiring a lot of backlinks is easy if you utilize Xrumer or use an Xrumer service.

Xrumer is a program that will post in discussion boards as well as post blog comments. It has many great features and can go around problems such as account generation, client diagnosis, and captchas. It is very convenient for this reason. You can also retain an [url=http://xrumerservice.org]xrumer service[/url] in which an individual will manage the link building software for you. Using an Xrumer Service really makes getting excellent Search engine optimization results easy. If you want to use Xrumer all on your own you must shell out $500 plus money for a dedicated server. This usually costs about $150 monthly. Using an Xrumer service is really a less expensive route to take.

Make sure you are getting good quality work when you decide to use an Xrumer service. You want to be able to verify your backlinks, so make sure you get a report. Whoever does the Xrumer service for you should validate every post that's live in a discussion board and deliver a report. If they will not give you this, then you definitely should get somebody else for your Xrumer needs. Also, be sure that there aren't any broken links. Many of these forums do not allow HTML or anchor-text, and this could cause links that do not work. This does nothing for your SEO rankings, and it is only a waste of time.

While Xrumer is excellent, there are lots of individuals who don't make any guarantees about the amount of posts you'll receive. The ones who stand behind their Xrumer work tend to cost more, so if you can find anyone to provide an Xrumer service at an affordable price, you should jump on it. This way you will know you are getting the links that you pay for.

Many Xrumer providers make big promises of hundreds of thousands of posts or blog comments. Don't be fooled about this though since most of these will not even be live. Usually the success rate for one of the blasts is merely four percent. Even out of those lots of the links will not be live. To make sure you are getting quality work make sure you can verify the amount of guaranteed posts from an Xrumer service.

When utilizing Xrumer the right way you can see big increases in your search engine rankings. Of course there'll be many more factors that contribute to this such as on page SEO along with other back linking strategies. However if you are serious about obtaining higher rankings in the SERP's, you will need to consider getting an Xrumer service.