It's just not in my heart to enjoy children. Or in my sole.

(Note important new contraction: "not-to-be-fucked-withedness".)

Hi -

I'm from a big family, as is my wife (I'm 1 of 6, she is 8 of 9), and my only regret is that we didn't start having kids sooner. We have 2 girls, 16 and 19, with the 16 year old doing an exchange program in Japan for 10 months and my oldest finishing starting 13th grade here in Germany (school goes for 13 grades here, you end up with 1-2 years' worth of college).

Costs a lot of money, sure, costs a lot of nerves, sure, but if you are doing a cost-benefit analysis to decide whether you want to have kids, you're doing it completely wrong. You should decide to have kids because you want to have them, will all their runny noses and heartbreaks, because you get a chance to not make the mistakes your parents made with you, and you want to love them the way that your parents loved you. Or if your parents didn't love you, you get to do it right with your kids.

Neither my wife nor myself had a really pleasant childhood. Our kids? Very happy childhoods. That makes it all worthwhile...

And seriously, if you do cost-benefit analysis here you always come to the result that you should never have kids. Of course, if everyone did that, the race would die out. You can pretend that you're superior and super-rational, but there is the biological imperative to reproduce...or do you give up sex when you decide not to have kids? :-)

Love my kids. Would love to have more. Two isn't enough...

2 quick offtopics
_______________

We've discussed it before, but on this weekend, people who've enjoyed visiting the Windy City's Michigan Avenue attractions should get one last gander at this. And...

...see also and also.

Never forget, he was a NatLamp guy.

OK, as you were.

I suggest, a) that kids are less of a burden if you don't have the idea that the world is a complexly evil place, and b) that "pretend" is entirely the wrong word, Mr. Opie. I hope you can raise your kids without teaching them to project like that.

Oh, all right... The third picture here {del Pozo) is kind of cute... But for the record, note that none of them are speaking.

I have to admit that there was a time I had some regrets about having kids. It wasn't my kids though. It was more the situation. I married way too young and got pregnant without really planning it. My regret had more to do with the horrible marriage I was in and the fact that when I left the financial struggle was very hard. As a parent you want to give every piece of the world to your child and I wasn't always able to do that. If I had the chance to do it again, I'd do it very differently, but I'd still choose to have children. My kids have brought me great happiness over the years, not the same happiness as some material things and luxury vacations, but a different happiness that I wouldn't trade. My best friend was raised in an Italian househould and if you want to see people who are thrilled to have kids, go visit there. These people truly cannot get enough of each other. But I do get Amy's point and I don't think that she has a heart of stone because she likes her life a certain way without having children. My best friend from that Italian family has no children, but tons of nephews and she loves the visiting and going home part too!

This comment has nothing to do with your article about having kids, but as I was reading it, I noticed a very large ad on the right of the page for Muslim Matrimonials. What's up with that?

This comment is about having kids:

After going back and forth for years deciding if I wanted one, finally had one at 38. The whole time I was pregnant, I felt fear that I was making a mistake. It turns out I love her more than anything, and feel tremendous joy.

Having a child is a very, very personal decision, and is not for everyone. They do cost alot of money and time, and you lose your identity somewhat.

No one should ever pressure anyone else to have a child, or assume they cannot be happy without them. My sister is like you--she does not have kids, but likes her friend's smart, well-behaved children, and is relieved that she can go back to her home without them.

What do you do if you feel the same way about kids as Amy, but actually have one? Walk away? Grit your teeth for 20 years and suffer miserably? Something else???

eh, you know we are going to selfselect on this... I often tell friends if they say they don't want kids, that indeed they shouldn't have them. I hate it when women especially pressure each other on children, talking about regret. You MIGHT regret it either way, but once you have the kid and everything that goes with, you can't give them back.

But that doesn't help people on the fence. There really is no advice that suffices. Cost/Benefit analysis is no good, because there is too much intangible on both sides. I regret my ex-wife, but my children not at all. If I were to find another life partner, I wouldn't be opposed to haivng more.

For species survival, we'll have to rely on people who don't do the analysis. Although that means that the smarty-pants people who think of such things, select themselves right out of the gene-pool. Maybe human evo will reach a plateau, or something. Instinct is one thing, but looking at old europe and Japan certainly show the future.

Being a human is a messy business, after all.

"If you think happiness is about pleasure, then kids won't do it for you.

If, on the other hand, you measure happiness according to what you find rewarding, then children get far higher marks - right up at the top with work."

This statement is brilliant and extremely well-put. My happiness in raising my kids is very much like the satisfaction I get from any job well done - perhaps more so, because kids are indeed a huge job. The people who are only looking for pleasure in life are likely the people who are the shittiest parents. Oh, and Amy, you're probably going to get the usual bunch of people on this post telling you how you should have kids. Let me be the first to say: no you shouldn't, any more than I should be a biologist. You don't want kids and that's the best reason ever to not have them. It is a job that not everyone is suited for, and not every person's duty as a human being or other nonsense.

I suspect that very fact influences the outcome of these studies. It's important to realize that a lot of people who didn't really want children end up having them anyway, so of course, they may not be overjoyed. But for those of us who are maternal and very family-oriented, it is a pleasure we wouldn't trade.

I like the Italian family reference because I do believe that whether you desire children or not depends a lot on your sense of family and enjoyment of family life. I see how my Italian and Cuban friends love to gather and celebrate every milestone. My own southern family used to gather every Sunday for Grandma's supper and so forth. You either enjoy that or you'd rather be off on your own, but for people who have a strong need for family life and support, having children is just a continuance of those traditions.

When we were raising our daughter and son, one of my favorite sayings was, "Sure, they're a lot of trouble and aggravation when they're small, but after they grow up and you're old and broken-down, they can turn into a major disappointment."

Actually, though, as adults our offspring are extremely gratifying--at least so far.

Looking back and trying to imagine how we would have fared without them, I'm thinking I could have been just as happy either way. My wife, though, would have been sad and by this time probably embittered. She does acknowledge, though, that raising our son caused some of the most hectic and frustrating experiences of her life. Now he is one of the most entertaining conversationalists we know, and writes interesting articles for an alt weekly paper.

Our daughter was easy to raise, but things became complicated when, as an adult, she converted to Orthodox Judaism. We're happy she found a faith that satisfies her, but acquiring and preparing kosher food when she visits us out here in the hinterlands in a house with a gentile kitchen can get pretty exasperating for us all. We store her hot plate and some kosher pans and utensils here for her.

That reminds me: On one of the walks I took recently with my little 2 1/2-year-old granddaughter, I called her attention to a wild turkey running along the edge of a field. She asked, "Is it kosher?" No way to make it that way out here, of course.

Grandchildren are more like Amy's little neighbor children than one's own. We can take delight in them without the weight of direct responsibility. I can't imagine how oppressed grandparents must feel when forced to take on child-rearing responsibilities in lieu of their incompetent or irresponsible offspring.

Btw, I have a Mormon family staying here. They have 6 daughters ranging in age from 8-20, and yesterday, we had some manatees swim up to the dock, and all the girls were lying on this wooden platform at sunset, petting the manatees and squealing with delight. The parents were beaming with happiness. It was such a great, unplanned, beautiful family moment. I'm sure it must be chaos raising 6 girls, but those are what makes it all worthwhile.

Through most of history, children were not a choice, they were inevitable, and you needed to have a lot of them so that a few would survive to adulthood and take care of you in your old age. In some parts of the world, hereditary families of prostitutes still sell their daughters, as their mothers had sold them.

Now we think it's appalling to view our children as economic resources or workers or soldiers, but that's due to modern conveniences and technology.

I too prefer to rent kids from my friends and family rather than have my own, for exactly the reasons stated in Amy's post.

I have kids. I am a SAHM. That's what my mom was, and what I always knew I'd be if I had kids. I was under no illusions it would be always fun. It's a lot of grunt work. But it's also got really high points-getting to see the world entirely new through little eyes, and having someone think you are the most amazing person in the world bar none. I wouldn't give it up for the world. They grow fast, and I'll just be Amy's age when they leave the house, so it's not my whole life, and I know mine is the richer for them.

However, barring some catastrophe, when your 18 you get a scholarship or enlist. I won't be doing boomarang kids.

I wish I could have more, now at three kids. I feel sorry for Alkon--constantly trying to justify and validate her "happiness" despite being childless.
The blunt. cruel truth is that not having children is self-genocide. I guess it means you are deeply unhappy and unsure with yourself, and do not want to reproduce unhappiness.
Having no children today may be worse than ever. At least one can imagine being part of a tribe, clan or village in days of yore, where other people, often related, actually cared about you. One could be part of a bona-fide social context (yes, I am sure the context was oppressive at times).
In modern-day Los Angeles? I can assure you, if I drop dead there will a few grimaces and tsks-tsks from my neighbors, a work associate or two might notice. Friends might care, but everybody is so honking busy trying to make a living (become "somebody:?). I doubt too many tears would be shed.
I suspect my friends lust for "recognition" -- praise from peers, and professional validation -- far more than my friendship (or anybody else's friendship).
To have a meaningful social context, and to not commit self-genocide, kids are real and important. Plus they are fun. You also meet other parents through kids, and form human relationships, based on common needs and hopes.
I don't know who these whiner-snivelers are who complain about kids, or kids' manners (Alkon as crone-schoolmarm) but children enrich life, make it the full circle.
Life is about living. Try different things, make mistakes, have loves and yes, marriage and children. Life is there for those who seize it. Take chances.

Large families and religious communities give ample opportunity to see just what is involved in child-rearing. Which is a plus.

I think the pleasure/fulfillment divide covers a lot more than children. A lot of modern grief is caused by narcissists getting married because of what they want to take out of a relationship, rather than being mature enough to want to give.

It's a general social shift, that is reflected in the "right to die" posts as well.

We had problems getting pregnant, and have a smaller family than most Orthodox Jews. I wish I had more children.

And while I respect Amy's decision, I regret that such a bright, engaging person isn't reproducing herself.

Check out Canada's "MacLean's" cover story online: "The Case Against Having Kids."

It's four pages long. I'd print some excerpts, but there are so many good ones - some of them unexpected - I wouldn't know where to start. (BTW, I'm afraid to try to send links to this blog.)

I only wish that the hint about how childfree (CF) people might lead to human extinction had been omitted from the article. Two world wars, other wars, floods, earthquakes, AIDS and other plagues did not stop this planet's population from growing by roughly 5 billion in the last century alone!

(Note that I didn't include famine; it's been said that famine actually keeps the birth rate up, for complicated reasons. Of course, you could say the same about war - people become so anxious to build up their families again, when they might not have done so before.)

Why does anyone seriously believe that CF people will make even a noticeable dent by comparison? Even if the percentage of CF people keeps rising slowly, the main problem will be encouraging people to become more frugal so they'll be able to support themselves in their old age - and finding other ways to support society's elderly, the
homeless and the disabled.

Besides, when you think about it, nobody chooses to have children "to benefit society" even when they'd rather not. I.e., having children willingly is done for selfish reasons, period. (And no one in America would suggest, these days, that having children just to have someone to care for you - or your farm - is at all humane. You're only supposed to have them because you can't bear the thought of life without them.)

Having children is and should be the most premeditated action you take in your life as it involves more lives than your own. I come from a very large extended family whose various members can't, don't, won't, have and should have never had children. Several of my little relatives may never rise from the wreckage of the lives their parents are manufacturing on their behalf.

The only reason to have children of your own is because you want them more than not and are willing make all the sacrifices necessary to raise them into independent, functioning adults. My own children, while being a source of love, joy, wonder and discovery, came at a great cost-emotionally and financially. While I love them irrationally, they have taken a toll on my career and my marriage (both are recovering nicely after a few rather dismal years). This is the ugly truth about having children, which I work very hard to shield them from each day.

Honestly, the choice to have children is no more noble than the choice not to.

I feel very sorry for I-hole's kids. It must be hard to know that you were conceived so that you parent has someone to cry at his funeral. It also must be hard being raised by someone with such a limited view of the world.

That's funny on the article saying marriage brings more happiness than kids. I know a lot of divorced people, but none who've given up the kids. And doesn't marriage shorten women's lives? I know there were some studies that showed that.

I'd give up my husband before my kids, no question.

I have never wanted children. However, I also never wanted a husband, and that wound up happening, so I haven't cut off all avenues in case I ever do want to have children. I don't think I ever will want children, but my parents and relatives all cry when I talk about not having any. Now I have a life altering health condition, one that may be genetic (not proven), and I feel that having children now would be almost immoral since there's some days where I can't get out of bed so I wouldn't be giving them the best care, and I might be passing down something terrible to them.

Honestly, it's kind of a relief, because it's easier to tell someone that your health prevents you from having children (though for some reason doctors always assure me I can if I want to) as opposed to having made a personal decision.

To all the doctors: just because it’s technically possible to maybe carry a baby to term (while putting my own life in danger from coming off of medications that I need, and staying in a hospital the enter time for monitoring) doesn’t mean that it should be encouraged. I don’t know why there’s such a push, especially in the case of someone like me.

"...petting the manatees and squealing with delight."

Not a good idea.

As a Florida native, whose family owned a marina for 32 years, I can tell you that this teaches the manatee that docks are a place to go for entertainment and food.

Once at a dock, they discover that boats discharge hot water from main engine heat exchangers (think "car radiators", but using seawater, not air). They are then right under a boat when it starts spinning its propellers. Even commercial vessels, like the tugs that bring fuel to your coastal power plants. Boat owners and pilots do not want this to happen, even more than the Save The Manatee club, which has used some bogus figures over the years.

I have rubbed a manatee with a deck squeegee. Now, I know better.

Irony: Save the Manatee - drive your Hummer! They need warming!

-----

So much of what people do with animals makes the ecology-lab people shudder.

I didn't want kids until a couple of years ago. I'm pretty pragmatic about these things. I was married before, and my husband was a deadbeat, and I knew raising children with him would be an awful experience. Plus, my own mother admitted to me once during an unguarded moment that if she could raise my brother and sister again, she wouldn't. So much drugs and violence, and so many poor choices, made her bitter about the experience, even as she loved them madly.

Over the last couple of years, I've warmed to he idea. My fiance will be a wonderful father, and having a child feels more like a reaffirmation of life rather than a chore from which there is no end.

> you know we are going to
> selfselect on this...

Yes, and then cluck afterward, whichever direction we've gone. To wit—

>> If you think happiness is about
>> pleasure, then kids won't do
>> it for you. If, on the other
>> hand, you measure happiness
>> according to what you find
>> rewarding, then children get far
>> higher marks - right up at the
>> top with work."

> This statement is brilliant and
> extremely well-put.

It strikes me as tautological, or otherwise inane... Unless you're just eager to flatter yourselves, as people are wont to do on this topic. "Reward" and "pleasure" are not so distinct that they can bear the weight you're putting on them. Cluck!

> I feel sorry for Alkon--
> constantly trying to justify
> and validate

Cluck! The vast majority of chatter we get from the public sphere about this is autopilot babylove cheerleading. (I'm kind of cool with that: It's important to encourage people who do become parents to carry themselves with optimism and enthusiasm.) But this is by no means an obsession for Amy... She does these posts much less often than ones about cafe food or waist-to-hip ratios.

I think folks such as yourself are "made", like Mafia members who owe money to the Godfather... Or like Scientologists who unthinkingly told their 'auditor' about that time they finger-banged their younger cousin, not realizing it would be recorded on the organization's books forever. (For a Billion years!, until Xenu comes home!)

Then along comes a person who lives the life she wants to live, and reflects on the good parts without shame, without regret and (perhaps most importantly in this discussion) without bondage: She could change her mind if she wants to. But she doesn't, even when she describes what she's missing. That's got to irk the cluckers who are so deeply committed.

> The blunt. cruel truth is that
> not having children is self-
> genocide.

Cluck! That's not so blunt, it's certainly not cruel, and you fucked up the punctuation. If "genocide" means that any particular allele fails to pass to another generation, then most every living organism is hosed. Wiping the germs off your kitchen sink is a holocaust, and "genocide" has no meaning.

> Try different things, make
> mistakes, have loves and yes,
> marriage and children. Life is
> there for those who seize it.
> Take chances.

Cluck! Cluck *City*, California, Population: You. (Buddy, I got something for you to "seize" right here, in my pants.) I've always, always hated rhetoric like that. Even at high school graduations and things, there's just no excuse for being so humorless. And stupid: I've met many people who sensibly resented the "chances" taken by their parents. You're glibly excusing the grandest irresponsibility.

> A lot of modern grief is caused
> by narcissists getting married
> because of what they want to
> take out of a relationship,
> rather than being mature enough
> to want to give.

Not-a-cluck. Actually a very good point.

> I.e., having children willingly
> is done for selfish reasons,
> period.

Another good one. Lenona, I like you. And this:

> You're only supposed to have
> them because you can't bear the
> thought of life without them.

Yes... The preferred reasoning for reproduction drifts as does the popularity of baby names. No reason to take it personally.

> For species survival, we'll have
> to rely on people who don't do
> the analysis.

Loves ya, dude, and it may not be a Cluck!, but this is egregiously grandiose. Do you really, really worry about the species this way? Do you really, really think you need to?

Nature will get her needs met without our help or worry. Please trust me on this.

> So much of what people do with
> animals makes the ecology-lab
> people shudder.

Yeah, but the ecology labbers are working for UF, anyway. I mean, I take your point, and manatees are about the most beautiful, heartbreaking animals in North America... But the problem is all the development in Florida generally, including the kind that gives us ecology labs. There comes a point when you can't fault families of little girls who want to throw them carrots.

Amy-
I was aware of the Cathy Seipp situation (I never met her)--and also how unusual it was. It was a rare occasion in Los Angeles when people actually responded, although circumstances had to be just right. Seipp had to have a commanding personality, and, evidently, a superior intellect people admired. She was a certain age group, and had lots of single friends similarly situated. I gather she was a role model for many.
I can assure you (having read newspapers in old age homes), for every Seipp, there are probably thousands of single people who die alone, or surrounded only by other people in the old age home. It is a sad and cruel fate,
And, if you are a real Angeleno (actually, you are from Detroit, but maybe by osmosis) , you know your "friends" will evaporate the minute you are homeless, no longer a player in town, mentally disabled, etc. This is Los Angeles, after all.
I don't understand Alkon for not contributing her smarts and love of life (if true) to the next generation, for not embracing her own flesh and blood as a positive for the world.
When did we go so far from human norms that love and life and families are viewed with suspicion? Is is a key mistake--seems like most professional women get into their 50s and wonder, "Why the hell am I spending so much time in the office?" And "Why did I let the best things in life slip away from me?"
Well, each to his own.

> When did we go so far from human
> norms that love and life and
> families are viewed with suspicion?

Kaaaa-hullllll-uhhhh-cckkk. Cluck.

Stop pouting! You're not that noble.

Instead of having children so that I can give them "the life I never had," I decided not to have kids so that I can actually have that life myself.

"there are probably thousands of single people who die alone, or surrounded only by other people in the old age home."

This is also true of a lot of old people in nursing homes who DID have kids. I find i-hole's obsession with the "death-moment" to be bizarre. I'll probably live 80 or 90 years, and I care about what happens during those years. What happens during the few minutes I'm dying? Not so much. I certainly don't care about what happens afterwards - whether people grieve or cry or not. I won't know I'm dead. I won't be hovering invisible over my now-defunct body, counting the mourners.

What, Amy, you mean you don't want to have kids so they can take care of you when you're old and then cry when you're gone? Why that's ... so SELFISH! ;-)

You know, i-soon-to-have-a-hole-in-his-head-i-hope

There are lots of married people with lots of kids who die alone or in old folks home surrounded by strangers

I had a child at the behest of my husband, despite my instinct not to. I was never, ever inclined towards maternatity, being the eldest of six in a Catholic family, I saw what drag it could be in every way. I was 13 when my mom's youngest was born and remember thinking: when will this end?? But once a child is born, it's difficult to wish otherwise, and I did right thing (as Amy always points out: if you make a decision like this, you must carry it out and do the right thing and bring them up properly) by making the sacrifices, finanically, personally, and otherwise. My marriage ended, my ex disappeared and I was left to raise this child on my own, which I did to my best ability and he is a sound human being on the right path: he is now 22, beautiful and competent. But the thing is, if I had to do it over again, I don't think I would. The worry and strain to someone like me is almost unbearable! I love the quiet life. I despise the teenage angst and frets, and waiting for the worst.

Life is messy, for sure, but I say leave the parenting to people who absolutely love it and can do right by the child and themselves, and for those in doubt, follow your instinct. If it's not for you, don't do it. For if you cannot bring up a child in a loving, caring and somewhat financially secure environment, you're creating the next generation of misfits - few are those who succeed without good guide.

> seems like most professional women
> get into their 50s and wonder,
> "Why the hell am I...

Seems like most entrenched, none-too-happy-about-it men approach middle age and think, "I hope the pathos of my loathing and desperation isn't as obvious to others as it feels within my own flesh...

"I'd better pretend that I wanted to live with these emasculating, suffocating burdens. Yeah, that's the ticket! I meant to do that.... It's noble! Sure it is!"

Ally, I adore your comment. I hate single motherhood with undying fire of ten thousand scorching suns... But hearing a woman who's gone through it speak so frankly gladdens the heart.

I never wanted to have kids; that was probably the main issue which broke up my first marriage. (Just to be clear, that's a good thing.)

Men who feel about kids the way Amy does: consider marrying a single/divorced mom. As a stepfather, you can enjoy interacting with the kids, and provide as much support and guidance as suits you, but you don't have the ultimate responsibility for them, which is what I always shied away from. And the expectation from society is low; as long as you don't molest or abuse the kids, you're pretty much a hero. (Actual child molesters, please ignore this whole paragraph.) Finally, you face less competition for a good woman, because a lot of guys avoid women with kids.

It worked for me.

My mother once told me: Honey, it's not just that I know which buttons to push; it's that I installed them.

I worry about that off-the-cuff remark every day as I struggle to raise the sunniest, funniest, biggest hearted little girl on my own.

The other day in the car she said, "Mama, I know you didn't want children," something she overheard me say in conversation years ago and takes out of context every so often to torture me.

I told her she was right. When I was little like she is I didn't imagine myself with kids the way she does (she thinks she'll need a sandwich house next door to her actual house because she'll have to make so many school lunches). And that in my 20s and most of my 30s I was busy doing other things I had dreamed of and loved. But that when she was made, she was made intentionally -- although I wish now I'd put more thought into the decision.

Then I very delicately explained that women who have babies in their tummies don't have to have the babies if they don't want. She said, "You mean you'd kill it?" I don't believe cells are babies so I tried to explain what cells are and showed her the end of a toothpick. "It would be about that big at the time." And then without thinking I picked my teeth with it.

"Oh great," she squealed from the back seat. "you're killing me in order to clean your teeth!"

I laughed about that all day, and loved her even more than I usually do. But I'm also scared most the time and worried about finances and lonely when I'm stuck in the house at night. And exhausted. Tonight a friend is taking her so I can work without paying a babysitter $12 an hour and when they drove away I sat in my driveway and wept.

I love her madly, deeply, truly. She's the best person I know. But I'm not sure I know myself anymore. I'm working on it. I owe her that, and the world, but anyone who says single motherhood -- or just motherhood -- is easy is kidding themselves.

By the way, if it wasn't clear, the oNLY reason I told my littlest that mommies with babies in their tummies don't necessarily have to have them was so she'd understand I wanted her so much.

Say... when your tyke is on the playground, maybe they'll meet an evangelist.

Amy Alkon got her little dog, because its eyes are the same distance apart as a baby's, and it is about baby-sized. Just telling it like it is.

I remember in the 70s when Ann Landers ran the famous letter/survey asking her readers if you had to do it over again, would you. 70% said no. For some reason I can't get my HTML going tonight, but if you search "If You Had It To Do Over Again—
Would You Have Children?
By Ann Landers" you'll find a copy of her essay. It would be interesting to have that survey reapeated today.

I remember discussing it with my Mom (I think I must have been 16 or 17) and she admitted she got married and had kids because in the mid-1950s that's what women did. She said had she been born in the 50s or 60s, she probably wouldn't have have married or had kids. She loved the whole 60s and 70s free love thing!

Seriously, is any woman who feels affection for another vertebrate just masking her energy for child-rearing?

"there are probably thousands of single people who die alone, or surrounded only by other people in the old age home."

'This is also true of a lot of old people in nursing homes who DID have kids.'
- - - - - - - - - - - -
... which brings us back to the real divide, which is between narcissistic takers and mature givers.

Family does not necessarily equal community - especially in the sadly atomized reality of suburban America.

It takes effort to connect - in a family or in a community. Those who make the effort will have these connections in their lives, those who don't - won't.

... and the value of these connections is not just (or even primarily) in crunch situations.

Why do people think it is so unnatural to not want children. While I don't think I would have opted out of motherhood, I also acknowledge that it was something that was "expected" of me and that I did without planning. More thought and discussion was put into purchasing my car or house than whether or not to have kids. I had a few friends who waited and they were constantly bombarded with the questions about why they didn't have children and when they were going to make that happen. I also had a friend who was having trouble conceiving and it was upsetting to her to have people think they had a right to demand she have a child on demand. My best friend from the big Italian family who chose to love nephews and remain childless is a very warm and loving aunt to my children as well. And her kid crazy Italian family seems to be the only ones that do not pester her about her choice. I wish my kids could be around more women like her and Amy. Kids, especially little girls, should see that there are options in life. Remaining childless does not mean that you are going to die alone with your cats or that you are going to live a life unloved. And it does not mean that you are cold or are anything like the witch in Hansel and Gretel putting little kiddies into the oven. I know plenty of mothers who should never have had kids, and plenty of mothers who are cold bitches. Having kids didn't change that.

"Seriously, is any woman who feels affection for another vertebrate just masking her energy for child-rearing?"

In fact, Crid, it need not be a living vertebrate. The womanly obsession extends to any object that is even vaguely baby-sized, like a couch cushion or a vase. Yesterday I found myself rocking a small wastebasket to sleep and realized, 'Oh my God! I have such maternal instinct, I should have a baby!' So I threw a few thousand dollars into the wastebasket and called it close enough.

At the risk of sounding childish...good one, Pirate Jo! You made the water I was drinking go up my nose, but good one!

That just means you put it on backwards. Don't feel bad, a couple drinks on a Saturday night, we've all made that mistake.

I think every family needs a childless aunt or uncle. They're great! I have a friend who is 48, with s 3 year old and 18 month old twins. She never thought she wanted to marry, until she met her husband. She never thought she wanted kids until she realized she did with him. She was lucky to be able to do so at that late point, and it cost her a lot. But, she had the money from being a career woman all those years, and had been content until then. One never knows what will happen in the future. That's why most Drs won't sterilize a young woman.

Alkon--
This is a link to a State of Texas program that offers health insurance to people who cannot get coverage elsewhere. As you can see, when you get to 55-60, it gets very expensive. 60 to 65? Pretty hefty.
And that's today--most people expect health bills to escalate...
Basically, we are going to have a large number of uncovered, aged 60-65--$1,000 a month? And the mortgage?
Not everybody lives in a rent-controlled apartment, and then calls for others to get by in the free market.
http://www.txhealthpool.org/080109standardratetable.pdf

i-holier-than-thou --

What the fuck? What does the insurance crap have to do with this thread?

And what's with your name? You do know that most of us regard being either an "i-hole" or being "holier than thou" as seriously negative character traits, right? I mean, we'd figure out that you're an i-hole with a holier-than-thou attitude just from your comments, but why on earth would you want to advertise it up front?

Anyway. Ick.

I want kids. I do find babies rather boring, but I'm sure I'll like my own babies. I LOVE toddlers and kids and teenagers. Babies just lie there. Sometimes they smile. Toddlers are funny!

Oh Ihole, you just made the case for why assisted suicide is necessary. If we could just put anyone we want to sleep we wouldn't have to worry about those 60-65 year olds or the uninsured!

The whole "dying alone" thing is retarded. It's all about the life you craft for yourself. My mother died a few hours ago, and I was there. But so were a lot of other people. If my mother had never had children, those people would have been there to see her off anyway. One can nurture without ever holding a child.

I have a 4 year old kid. She is beautiful, smart, articulate, age-appropriately compassionate, polite, well-mannered, delightful, etc. Everyone comments on how terrific a kid she is and how great of a job I am doing raising her right. However, nearly everyday, I want to slap her or strangle her, or just up and leave her to cry herself into oblivion. I sometimes want to punish her for making my life not about me. Sometimes I dream about living in an alternate timeline where she never existed. There would be so much I could accomplish! So much *me* I could explore and develop!. There is so much I could do, be, see, feel, think, breathe and experience if it weren't for her incessant neediness. Oh, the brain drain! The "mommy! wipe my butt, I went pooooooop!" (BTW, people not responsible for wiping her butt seem to find that cute.) I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.

I never wanted kids growing up. I had a painful childhood and went back and forth between the "the world is too overpopulated anyway" and "maybe I'll adopt when I'm older" excuses. However, when I was 24 I had a pregnancy scare that made me realize that there was something in me that would like very much to be pregnant, just not by the person I had slept with. The next month or so, I got myself knocked up by a person I would consider to be a prime breeding candidate. Physically and mentally, he was everything I could have ever wanted in a sperm donor, including a desire to not be involved in raising the child.

I absolutely loved being pregnant. The experience of being a biological test subject, the whole experiment I was embarking upon was fascinating and new. At times it was scary, but mostly it was intriguing and rewarding. I looked forward to the social experiment I had the opportunity to conduct, and was eager to test my musings of behavioral and evolutionary theory.

For the first few years, she didn't require much. I took care of her physical needs. But recently, she's developed a sense of self and now it is my ridiculously hard responsibly to make sure she is presented with educational and social opportunities, as well as moral guidance (in addition to all the food, clothing and shelter I must still provide).

Last year, being exhausted and needing help, I tried a few nannies and day care situations. It was a temporary relief at best. I then relented and sought out a life partner with whom I could exchange skills and support to help with this "parenting" thing. I found a compatible partner (yes, I really am this dry and logical in my real life, but also a feeling person- it's a neat dichotomy). The only problem I had was that he was fairly certain he would like one more child. I resigned myself that I had made a mistake in having my child, and if this decent, kind man was willing to be a full-time father to my child, then I could sacrifice my own professional and personal ambitions once again for my child's sake as much as for my own. I secretely hoped he would change his mind about having a child once he saw how much work a child was. And by the grace of a divine source (or my keen insight and good luck) I was right. He realized about himself that he is, like me, a person of pleasure and that children are incompatible with that precious pleasure. His dreams of being a father and mentoring a young child are fufilled by my (our) child and we are truly a very happy family in our own way. Personally, I love my little girl's hands. I fell in love with them when I first saw them on the ultrasound. I also love the way she wiggles when she's running to get her dolls or to give me a hug. There are so many hugs and kisses in our household an outsider would never guess the thoughts that go on inside my husband's and my heads. His joy comes partly from my saving him the work of taking care of a child for the first 4 years.

Neither one of us truly wish we didn't have her. She makes our free time in which we can pursue our own interests much more valuable. We appreciate life much more than we had previously from knowing what we've lost and can't have. I would not do it any other way, for my daughter has taught me the potency of our decisions. I do however, when asked, actively caution others to really think about what it takes to raise a responsible human being. Your sense of self must come from the rewards of parenting because you simply won't have time to do or be anything else in your life. Yes you can do both half-ass. But IMO, children don't deserve to be raised by parents that are half-assing it.

Candid enough for you, Amy? :-)

P.S. My behavioral theories are proving right, and she is a fascinating test subject. It's just a lot of work.

Pirate Jo:
Yesterday I found myself rocking a small wastebasket to sleep and realized, 'Oh my God! I have such maternal instinct
- - - - - - - - - -
... so what's the semiotic meaning of all those guys waxing their cars? Unfulfilled need to nurture?

Joking aside - I think modern society does not realize men's desire to give/nurture, and does not give men avenues for this (see the threads here on men's rights/distancing of men from anything to do with children).

This is one area where i find my religious Jewish community to be much more fulfilling. Men are respected as teachers, valued as husbands, fathers, and neighbors, and Torah study and communal work are "male bonding experiences".

Monica, so sorry about your mom. Even though she was suffering, I'm sure it was hard letting her go.

Person with kid, I'm at a loss but would like to say thank you for being so honest. Being a parent, especially a single parent is not easy. At first I thought you were miserable, but after reading on, it seems like you have managed to find a way to do what's best for all of you even if deep down you aren't so happy with your choice. We all have our what the fuck did we do days but you seem to have managed it. I only hope that as your daughter gets older, it gets easier for you and that your daughter continues to grow into a beautiful person.

"What do you use for a Great Dane, a litter bathtub?"
No, a doggie door. A big one. And they have sensative stomachs, so you probably shouldn't have carpet. Honestly, though, the Chihuahua is more of a pain than the big guy... he shits on my bath mat on purpose, and pees on my husband's laundry.

Person with Kid:
yes, I really am this dry and logical in my real life, but also a feeling person- it's a neat dichotomy
- - - - - - - - -
Please read the posts above about narcissistics who enter relationships solely for what they can get out of them.

You seem to have found a "soul mate" who learned "just in time" that he was a "person of pleasure" who really doesn't want to give to others.

Kindly let us know who dumps who... or how long it takes him to figure out that you married him to offload work resulting from previous opportunistic breeding.

"If, on the other hand, you measure happiness according to what you find rewarding, then children get far higher marks - right up at the top with work."

AA wrote: "I'll take work, thanks"

Not taking issue with Alkon's preference here, but I think she's giving short shrift to a very good point. Lots of people don't like their paying jobs, but everybody likes the feeling of job well done. Its entirely appropriate to obtain that feeling of satisfaction from successful child-rearing.

Ben-David:

I'll agree with your assertion of narcissim, but I think I have a healthy and necessary amount. I think what I am is a whole lot better than (or atleast a nice balance to) those people out there that are all about "giving back" and "making a difference" which is born out of guilt from having more than their neighbor. Those people make quality socialists and frankly, I am glad I am not one of them.

I also agree with your accusation of "opportunistic breeding". That's exactly what it was. And I admit that it was a mistake. But I am "managing" it (Thanks Kristen) and have actually come out stronger.

I disagree, however, that my husband and I aren't compatible in the long-term. We are both aware of our collective neuroses and think we've got a pretty good chance of making our partnership successful. You seem to be imparting drama onto my relationship with "soulmates" and "just in time" realizations. It's really rather simple: I like the guy. He likes me.

I look at it this way: we've all got some baggage, and my husband and I are willing to help carry a bit of the other's load. He has a history, too. But we make each other happy.

So, thanks for commenting so honestly. You are the first one to say anything like that to me. That's how I've seen it this whole time but few I've approached have been willing to acknowledge my behavior and certainly no one has ever been so detailed. Maybe it's a "takes one to know one" type of thing?

One last comment, slightly off-topic. I would like to correct my word choice. Instead of "logical" I should have chosen "detached". I'm also insanely logical, but my bad for not picking the most accurate term.

Ben-David,

"Kindly let us know who dumps who... or
how long it takes him to figure out that
you married him to offload work
resulting from previous opportunistic
breeding."

You demonstrated in the assisted suicide thread that you were insufferably smug and self-satisfied. You have just confirmed it by your words to Person with kid.

Did you read her entire post? Including the last couple of paragraphs? Yeah, she jumped into having a baby without nearly enough thought, and she admits it. But then she talks about how much she and her partner love the child and how the child is worth the sacrifices. Despite the hastiness of her (and her partner's) original decision, she's clearly grown up and she and her partner are putting her child first -- as they should. She may have acted selfishly at first, but she is doing everything in her power to atone for it and to make a good life for her child.

By the way, speaking of the assisted suicide thread, I noticed you scuttled away when I made a point you couldn't answer. I'm hoping you'll scuttle away from this one, too.

And MonicaP --

I'm so sorry about your mom. I've thought of you a few times over this last week. I still think that the comment you made about your mom in one of the previous threads was one of the sweetest things I ever read. You were very lucky to have each other.

"we've got a pretty good chance of making our partnership successful. "

One would hope so, since your daughter will already grow up knowing her real dad wanted nothing to do with her. Losing another one would be cruel and damaging to the extreme.

Intentional single motherhood is shitty. Props for doing something about it, but it needs to last another 14 years no matter how you two feel about each other.

A chic from australia tricked my older brother into getting her pregnant (yes, he should have used a condom and kept it in his posession, definately) then went back to australia. My older brother is not the kind who is ok having a kid he has nothing to do with. Every dollar he can make goes either to taking him to visit, or to supporting her and her non working mother, who also has a 6 year old from another man half a world away. Surprise surprise, her kids have problems. The boy has serious ones. My brother's daughter, being 2, is mostly ok thus far. I am sure she's going to have serious questions for her mom someday.

My personal opinion is he needs to go take her and raise her here. The mom lost her say in the matter when she choose that shitty situation for her kids.

.... so Gail gets more worked up over my post than Person with Kids herself.

so, Gail - who exactly is "insufferably smug and self-satisfied", hrmmmmm?

Person with Kids:
I certainly wish you marital bliss. But all we readers know about you and hubby is that:

"I then relented and sought out a life partner with whom I could exchange skills and support to help with this "parenting" thing"

and:
"He realized about himself that he is, like me, a person of pleasure and that children are incompatible with that precious pleasure."

... in other words, two people who looking to avoid/offload the work of nurturing others, and maximize personal pleasure.

Based on what I've seen of life, I don't think this is a "normal level of narcissism". I think it's what got you into single motherhood, and I don't think it offers a solid basis for a stable, long-term relationship - which is what your child needs, as others have pointed out.

Your child DOES need a stable relationship. But the story so far indicates that the adults involved don't care much about what other people need...

".... so Gail gets more worked up over my post than Person with Kids herself. so, Gail - who exactly is "insufferably smug and self-satisfied", hrmmmmm?"

Ben-David --

Getting angry when someone abuses someone else isn't being "smug and self-satisfied." Look up the words and see.

Just because Person with kid meekly puts up with your excessive bashing doesn't mean I can't call you on it. If someone is beating up someone else, you should speak up, even if that person just meekly sits there and takes it.

In this instance, Person with kid has analyzed her own mistakes, condemned them, and struggled hard to correct them, all on her own. And yet you still had to give her a sarcastic slap, and predict future disaster in her life, smugly telling her to "kindly inform" you when it happened. Grrrrr. It was completely unnecessary and really obnoxious.

Would you tell someone who stole, went to prison, regretted his errors, and started a new life that he'd certainly end up back in prison? Would you tell a recovering alcoholic that she'd certainly drink again sooner or later? How about someone who lost 100 pounds? Would you tell them they'd gain it back sooner or later?

Ben-David and momof4:

There are more facts. But it's not realistic to give the whole story, but I'm not actually an evil person and my little girl isn't screwed. She will be fine. If anything, I'll take the blame if that's what needs to happen. But I doubt it will come to that.

Her first dad was ambivalent from the beginning. I called him up and said: I'm pregnant, do you want to be involved? He hemmed and hawed. I gave him over a year while he went from cold to hot and back to cold (I still have his contact info and he has mine). We tacitly agreed that it was an impractical situation to have him be an active father. I think he very much loves and thinks about the baby he made, and is comforted that another man has stepped up to the plate. He mentioned once that "it still feels shitty" to not be involved.

As for how I chose my current husband, well it certainly wasn't for a whimsical falling in love. I chose instead to do what was best for my daughter and find someone who would be a good father, provider and partner. He's a fantastic husband and we are best friends and every day we find ourselves falling in love more and more with each other. It's not a typical situation, but then again so many typical situations end in divorce and pain for everyone involved. I think my husband and I are fortunate to have made all of our mistakes before we got married and have a self awareness that will make us stronger as a couple.

The original question I was responding to was what do you do when you have a kid, but that's not what you would have chosen had you (I) had your (my) head screwed on straight?

Well, what you do is love that kid anyway and do all the things necessary for that kid. It doesn't mean I ignore my own needs. My sister did that and her kids are seriously screwed up not having had a role model with a backbone (who valued her own needs). Life is a huge balance, and parents have to find that balance having come to parenthood from wildly different paths.

Gail: Thanks for speaking up for me. I'm not too fragile, but it's nice having someone speak nicely of me. I don't mind the truth talk too much, though. Truth is truth; I don't run from it. But thank you for recognizing in my words my honest intentions.