The larger issue of this unfortunate case is what can be done to fix the mind set causing it? We have a huge portion of the MSM that sells fear. The large breadth of the fear selling has inculcated the vast majority of Americans. For instance how do you say to someone, "your child would have to stand outside for thousands of years to be statistically likely to be kidnapped", when they see a child kidnapped on the news almost every day (it's an anomaly but not perceived that way). The one thing I say to someone regarding the fear selling is, "if you fear a stranger breaking into your house and murdering you, you must be utterly petrified to drive your car. Statistics say you are far more likely to be injured or killed in a car accident". It largely falls on deaf ears because their fear is not based on logic. I think of myself as someone who questions conventional wisdom, however, I am guilty of this over reaching fear too. The first time my son walked a half mile down the road in his own neighborhood to visit his friend, I followed in my car, behind and out of sight, because I was viscerally afraid for him. No amount of statistics were likely to subdue that fear. How do you change a society of hundreds of millions that has a visceral response to something largely irrational? How many dozens of times would you have to hear statistical logic to change a visceral response? Maybe I am too pessimistic but it seems heaven and earth will need to be moved to change this mind set. As for the reality right now it just seems males should avoid jobs that put them around young children. A male risks what happened to this 'forehead kiss guy'. Assuming the facts of the case are correct, the effect on this tiny and well meaning act is of a life altering brutal nature.

I have been subject to this sort of discrimination. Being automatically suspect, as a man, because you like working with kids - it is just plain frustrating. Moreover: kids - both girls and boys - need male role models. The past couple of decades have seen a huge feminization of the teaching profession.

This goes hand-in-hand with some of the paranoia: girls and women are less competitive, and this supports the idea that competitive sports and games should be removed from phys-ed. When boys seek an outlet for their competitiveness, when they make and use toy weapons, in other words, when they act like typical boys - oh my, time for counseling, or shall we just call the police?

And then on the other side of the coin, there are the men (in the case I'm talking about, one) who abuse their status in order to prey on youngsters. BUT this was ONE man, and ONE girl, who engaged in a sexual relationship. He was married, a VP at Merrill Lynch, and a girls' basketball coach for the Rec Department here. She was a basketball player on one of the teams. She was underage, but he didn't care. He took her to motels, pro basketball games, bought her presents, etc. and so on. When she wanted to end it, he made things difficult, and she had him arrested and pressed charges. He did 18 months in the hoosegow. His wife, poor thing, stood by him. He has 3 daughters of his own. The whole thing was devastating to the those involved, he's been labeled a sex offender and can't coach any more, can't be around kids other than his own, it's a mess. And the real problem is, he hasn't learned a damn thing. He's still on probation, but he's still out drinking at the bars, getting in fights, generally being an asshole, and still bragging about being "the most popular guy in town". It's crazy, but it's guy like him that ruin it for the rest of them. We really don't need guys like this as role models. The problem is, those are the ones that get the most attention, because those are the ones that make the news. Guys like my brother, who coaches little league and is an active member of his church, and a real stand-up kinda guy, rarely, if ever, make the news.

I agree that there is a hysteria, but I don't think everyone teaches their kids to be afraid of men. Unfortunately the ones who do seem to make the most noise. My daughter had male teachers when she was in pre-school and elementary. There were some that were very phsically affectionate and they were loved by the parents. One in particular was the most requested teacher. His personality fit his interaction. Is it possible this nursery school teacher's personality didn't fit? I tend to trust my instincts when I get that creepy feeling towards men or women. There are some who've made me uncomfortable and some who I welcome physical affection from.

Yes, boys need outlets, and girls do too. I HATE when I go to pick up my kinder girls and the teachers are outside after the bell yelling "don't run!!!" to all the kids. WTF??? We're worried about fat kids, but don't want them running? WHenever someone says something to my girls at the playground about climbing too high etc, I always correct them and tell the girls it's fine, they're doing great. Even when they're using the bar above the swings as a balance beam. I want my kids adventurous and active.

I agree the paranoia about men and children is overdone (even though most of the pedophiles are men, statistically small number though it may be) but we also need to not fault moms who do follow their gut feelings on individual men. Not all men and bad, not all are good. There needs to be room for individual judgement again.

Ironic, isn't it? It's like we are forcing an exaggeration of traditional roles on folks.

At our public school, the kindergarten teacher who rocks and who every parent wants is. . .a man. I'm a room parent and just the other day I hugely praised two dads who signed up to be classroom volunteers (this isn't easy to get men or women to do, since it involves 1. time 2. a TB test and 3. the filling out of forms).

I sometimes think as much as the misplaced fear of men is exaggerated so is the talk of that fear. I just don't see it, I never hear it, and I live in the land of little kids. Every camp my kids go to has male counselors, teenage on up. Ditto every park district sport they play.

Oh, and there's a difference between letting kids run at recess and letting them run during pick-up time. They also line up to go to lunch or assembly, both to learn how to be orderly and to avoid chaos.

Maybe I am just disillusioned by the whole thing but I wonder where are the do-gooder feminists on this issue? Where are the militants who ask for quotas of XX chromosomes in industries and parliaments while ignoring the sexual balkanization of kindergartens?

I guess asking the question gives us the answer...

For clarity...

Among female perpetrators those in teaching roles are ten percent. Among male perpetrators it is fewer than one percent. Even given the gender disparity in actual offending it is likely that a female teacher/male student situation is about three times more likely than the reverse.

Further there are basically as many victims of either gender where underage abuses are concerned. Girls are the more likely victims in the home/domestic setting. Almost by default the most likely victim outside the "home" is a boy rather than a girl. And boys are equally likely to be abused by either gender unlike girls who are predominantly abused by men.

Our scrutiny is all wrong.

If the wariness is necessary it should be directed at both genders. And we need to forget this notion that it only happens to girls.

For anybody who is interested in a more real view I'd recommend The Invisible Boy. It's nowhere near exhausting but compelling nonetheless.

>>Ironic, isn't it? It's like we are forcing an exaggeration of traditional roles on folks.

NicoleK,
I was just thinking what a depressingly accurate comment that was - when I heard one of the 2009 Nobels (in medicine) has gone to a scientist I know - Carol Greider - for her chromosome structure research.

(I'm not being a strident feminazi harpy - I'm just thrilled!).

(Googling around gives this re: the science prizes - possibly slightly out of date : there are altogether 35 female Nobel Prize winners out of 789 individual laureates, i.e. 4.4%; only 12 women got Nobels in science).

"It's crazy, but it's guys like him that ruin it for the rest of them."

Sad, but true. Why is it that if a man molests a child, we should keep all me away from children, but when a woman abuses a child, it's seen as an individual action?

@Jody...

You personally know Ms Greider?

I heard about it for the first time on the radio about two hours ago.

Screw the gender politics. I join you in the celebration.

Well done young lady.

To be honest I hope she views herself as a scientist rather than whatever it is her genitals represent.

>>You personally know Ms Greider?

Absolutely, gwallan!

(And thanks for understanding my comment wasn't gender studies agitprop. Just a happy shout out for meritocracy & the knowledge that it's tough at the top of any profession.)

Jody, allow me to second gwallan's statement. I'll have to Google Ms. Greider's name later and see what her research is about.

Kristen writes: "I agree that there is a hysteria, but I don't think everyone teaches their kids to be afraid of men. Unfortunately the ones who do seem to make the most noise. "

Kristen, I think there are two aggrevating factors that play into it. The first is that the reversal of the presumption of innocence in a lot of child-molestation cases makes it very risky not only for the men, but for the organizations that employ them. Consequently, one or two misandrist extremists can impose their views on a whole community. And when the organizations cave it, that seems to legitimize the misandrist position. People who would otherwise not think that way start to attach legitimacy to it because organizations that they consider trustworthy have, seemingly, embraced that view.

The other thing is that we all know there's a ton of peer pressure on parents these days. Raising children imposes incredible social demands for conformity on the parents. We all know that radicals and self-appointed elites are good at worming their way into social leadership positions (because, as Kristen says, they make the most noise). Once they do, they can bring peer pressure to bear on anyone who disagrees with their views.

I'm just back from a meeting for the school's big event of the year. Maybe 30 parents -- every single one of them a mom. Maybe if fathers didn't make themselves so scarce around schools and instead made themselves fixtures, these attitudes everyone claims are rampant would change simply due to proximity. I know, I know, dads have jobs. Me, too, and every mom I know. But we're still there.

You guys can blame it on the feminists -- and you always do -- for scaring you away but maybe this one's on you, too.

Good point JulieA. There is a group started by a dad after a school shooting called Watch Dogs. Their goal is to have a dad in every school of the country, every day of the year. Just hanging out, being there, talking to students, whatever. Dh joined. It's pretty neat. They background check of course, anyone who walks in the school doors is background checked. I think that's great, btw.

"You guys can blame it on the feminists -- and you always do -- for scaring you away but maybe this one's on you, too."

Feminists are the last ones to blame in this. The standard old matronly harpy that has always been with us and tradtional gender sterotypes are the real problem.

As Nicloe says: "Ironic, isn't it? It's like we are forcing an exaggeration of traditional roles on folks."

yes. And while feminists often fall int this tradtionalist trap (The "AngloBitch Thesis") just by fault of grwoing up in the culture, they at least make some effort to break free.

"Maybe if fathers didn't make themselves so scarce around schools and instead made themselves fixtures, these attitudes everyone claims are rampant would change simply due to proximity."

Actually, Julie, this is just a litle bitty bit obtuse, don't you think? You've just had it explained to you how men are being hounded out of those settings, and yet you come back with blaming men for the discrimination aimed at us? Did it ever occur to you that men might eb avoiding these situations? I suppose if a man gets defamed and then charged and then jailed, he's a deadbeat for abandoning his kids like that?

Greider - not only is it a joy to see this going to a woman, and an American, but the work she and her co-awardees were honored for is obviously hugely significant.

"Hello, Male Maintenance Department? Apparently we have a serious breach of the Glass Ceiling in Sector 4 -- Biological Science. Not just one, but TWO women shared a Nobel Prize in science with a male scientist. Crazy, huh? Next thing ya' know, cats and dogs will be sleepin' with each other! Anyway, get your asses in gear and fix that crack before any more women get through, for Pete's sake!"

Seriously, well done the ladies!

Just as the logging profession does not attract very many women, I don't think I'm being sexist to note that being a kindergarden teacher does not attract too many men. So, I think there may be a "If he wants the job, he's suspicious" kind of attitude that afflicts those men who are drawn to this vocation.

This still is no excuse for tolerating the "man menace" attitude that bookends the "man doofus" attitude so popular in today's (yes, post-feminist, female pleasin') culture.

I'm just back from a meeting for the school's big event of the year. Maybe 30 parents -- every single one of them a mom. Maybe if fathers didn't make themselves so scarce around schools and instead made themselves fixtures, these attitudes everyone claims are rampant would change simply due to proximity. I know, I know, dads have jobs. Me, too, and every mom I know. But we're still there.

You guys can blame it on the feminists -- and you always do -- for scaring you away but maybe this one's on you, too.

When my children attended private school I had a different attitude but with my children in public school I stayed completely away from parent volunteering other than the most simple things such as baking cookies for Halloween. The reason? I found that the PTA was nothing more than a lapdog for the teachers union. Their fundraisers were nothing more than giant potlatch schemes to raise money around in a circle to be spent on D.A.R.E and other such crap. I figured I had paid once in the form of property taxes , am still paying and will in perpetuity. I was damned if I was going to work for a public entity for free in addition to that. I can't imagine any real man wanting to spend his time walking around the school holding a sign up for D.A.R.E and as a real woman I wasn't going to debase myself that way either. Isabel

Er, Julie? While you were off at that meeting, us guys were covering your job for you. ;-) Seriously, I can't help but note that your note was posted in 10:06 AM in whatever time zone the site operates in (Pacific, I assume). Up until recently, the chance of me being able to take mid-morning time off to go to a school meeting would have been very close to zero; we had meetings and telecons nearly every day at that time. And staffing being what it is right now, there's not much backup for anyone, so if one person takes the morning off, something gets left undone. And don't forget, the kinds of jobs where you just can't take off from work to do errands during the day are the jobs most likely to be held by men.

Er, Cousin Dave. . .I have my own business. And if you'd asked I'd have told you that I worked ALL night in order to be at that meeting. And I'll work again ALL night in order to have been there.

But a lot of men seem to have entire days to devote to posting on this blog. I can only do so sparsely because. . .I'm supporting a family. How do they manage?

And fyi, I don't see the dads volunteering on weekends or in the evenings, either.

Isabel - Sorry you had such a bad public school experience. And I hate D.A.R.E. and we don't do it. Our school is great but poor and depends on parental participation. We raise money for things like. . .books and the new science program. P.S. What's with the real woman crap?

Head on over to Salon, there's a great related article. It's about how dads in movies are always portayed as totally incompetant. I feel that the media portrayal of men as idiots ties into this fear of leaving them around children.

When I was a kid, Dads coached the soccer teams. So we had Dads involved in our lives. Granted, it was the 80s, but have things changed THAT much? Or is it just that I lived in a progressive area?

DARE is stupid.

You guys can blame it on the feminists -- and you always do -- for scaring you away but maybe this one's on you, too.

Posted by: JulieA at October 5, 2009 10:06 AM
----

The double twist reverse blame the man in the end gambit. Well played madam. Well played indeed.

Its been rather amusing to me as I grew up in the 80-90s watching the Mr. Mom stereotypes played out in the media that many women seem to have no problem ripping on men for not being perfect at raising the kids. Yet men who balked at women entering the workplace were a bunch of crybabies for being hesitant (no matter the reason) in letting women into their traditional "spheres of influence".

"Just as the logging profession does not attract very many women, I don't think I'm being sexist to note that being a kindergarden teacher does not attract too many men. "

I am a man and I taught school for a while. I taught high school and loved it, and subbed in middle schools and loved it. A lot of people who love to teach the younger grades fear and loathe the older kids. Kindergarten would bore me to catatonia. It's like herding sheep. I'd rather work in a dog day care place. So maybe it has to do with gender, maybe it has to do with individual gifts.

Men can have their whole life tossed by one accusation, be it rape, molestation, whatever. There is a huge double standard which certainly can wreak havoc for those that would be inclined to be a Big Brother or some other type of Father figure to children. I was asked to be a Girls Basketball coach by a friend a few years ago, I politely refused because of the possible negative consequences, even though I know I could be of some value, it's sad, but it is what it is.

"Isabel - Sorry you had such a bad public school experience. And I hate D.A.R.E. and we don't do it. Our school is great but poor and depends on parental participation. We raise money for things like. . .books and the new science program. P.S. What's with the real woman crap?"

What I am trying to tell you is that men and women with better things to do won't play the NEA headgames for long. If your public school is so poor that you are raising money to buy science texts I would find out what your district has in the way of administrative overhead. It would probably be ultimately cheaper to buy your own child's textbooks and maybe a couple for the poorer kids in the class (if this really is not your districts prioirty) than to run everyone's time and effort through the fundraising mill where everyone usually consumes gallons of gas and hours of the free time to make nickles on a bakesale or 10% on door to door chocolate candy bars. It is busy work pure and simple designed to keep the parents thinking they are "doing something" and divert them from looking at what the teachers and the kids are doing in class. Like I said, if you are talking about a private school that is different and I hope the hours you spend give you a rebate on your tuition equivelent to at least what you can make at your job on a per hour basis. Generally men and women who can do math and have real jobs do not spend their time volunteering for anything to do with the public schools. Their efforts are well meaning but in the long run counter productive. Money is fungible and most public schools have enough for what they need but usually choose to spend it on having an assistant administrative principal in charge of curriculum or other such garbage, knowing when they cry poor and make textbooks a low priority that some parent (suckers) will pick up the slack. :-) Isabel

Isabel - I'm sorry they weren't creative at your school. I've recently instituted a fundraising program that will raise $10,000 for our school this year with maybe an hour a month of my time. Since I don't earn $1000 an hour, that's a pretty good return. In fact I spent a bit of today talking with someone about how to roll this out nationally. It's one of those ideas so obvious that I can't believe it's not already in every school.

Sure our school has popcorn Fridays and such -- as much to teach the kids about money and savings as anything. But we try to hold big fundraisers that make big money instead of piddling around. I guess you were smart enough to help your public school with that.

I didn't say science texts. I said books -- we have built a new library with our stupid fundraising and have a spectacular librarian who has a wish list. But we also wanted a full-on science program, unusual in public elementaries, and so we went and got it. You're really dissing that?

Seriously, in this era of school cutbacks you think districts have more than enough? I don't know what kind of mother you are, but if I have to roll up my sleeves so my kids don't have to have more than 20 kids in class or can have music classes, so be it. Isn't Amy and everyone here always talking about the necessity of public involvement in the public schools. (We're exactly the kind of school Amy's program would benefit, except our kids are too young.)

Please since you're a self-declared real woman define a real job for me? Is it based on income? Is it 40 hours a week? Do you have to have a boss? Can you be the boss? Does sustaining an entire family on your income define it?

OK, back to work I go. Check the time Cousin Dave.

And guys, I"m not saying it's all men's fault on the volunteer front. But if you tuck tail and run it won't change. People who live next door to different kinds of people tend to find commonalities -- and levels of comfort not previously shared. Same with schools. Get out there and put in an hour or two. The more who do, the more familiar it will become, the more it will become not just accepted but expected. As I said in my first post, I was SO pleased to see two dads sign up to help in the classroom. And if anyone gives them grief, I'll be the first one to have their backs.

"People who live next door to different kinds of people tend to find commonalities"

Actually, people who live in racially diverse neighborhoods score higher on racism traits than the general public. Not that that has anything to do with your larger point :) but it's an interesting little factoid.

"I'm sorry they weren't creative at your school. I've recently instituted a fundraising program that will raise $10,000 for our school this year with maybe an hour a month of my time. Since I don't earn $1000 an hour, that's a pretty good return. In fact I spent a bit of today talking with someone about how to roll this out nationally. It's one of those ideas so obvious that I can't believe it's not already in every school."

Money doesn't come from nowhere. 10k is less than the school district will pay for one full time classroom aide. I don’t' care how creative you say you are. Please tell me what the idea is so we can have a rational discussion about where this "free money" is coming from. Color me skeptical.

"Sure our school has popcorn Fridays and such -- as much to teach the kids about money and savings as anything. But we try to hold big fundraisers that make big money instead of piddling around. I guess you were smart enough to help your public school with that."

I didn't want to help my children's school except when they were in private school. Like I said before, money is fungible. That means that when you put money into something you think is worthwhile, your school is then free to waste taxpayers money on excess administration. I think I did a fine job of teaching my children about money and saving at home. Again, your big fundraiser is more than likely soliciting donations for things that your district should be buying. Why don't you tell me where you district is and in what state and I will tell you what the annual budget is for each student and people on this board can decide whether parents selling popcorn or even extracting 10k worth of OPM (other people’s money) is really contributing to the bottom line? You obviously have a lot emotionally invested in this activity which means that you are probably unwilling to do the math. Also, if you own a home please tell me what your annual property taxes are and the percentage that goes to the district so we can discuss what you are already paying for this "free" education? I actually favor a system more like Japan where the majority of children are in private schools. Charter schools here in the US are probably the best we can hope for because the NEA and their state affiliates control most of the education in this country. I know a lot about school funding in my state, and other states, as it was the subject of a extensive research paper that I wrote while in law school. Also my mother is a retired teacher and school administrator as well as a former school board president.

"I didn't say science texts. I said books -- we have built a new library with our stupid fundraising and have a spectacular librarian who has a wish list. But we also wanted a full-on science program, unusual in public elementaries, and so we went and got it. You're really dissing that?

Yes I am, especially if your school and your money are duplicating public facilities already available through the state and county and the city and your school district is spending their money on every athletic team known to man or excessive administration. (Football is particularly expensive) I am ambivalent about libraries. I found them very useful when I was a child although the first school library I encountered was in Junior High. Most scientific writing and old literature is now online so a school library may just end up as another place to park kids rather than in a classroom in front of a teacher. I don’t know what you consider a “full on science program” for elementary students to be, as in my opinion most elementary students are unable to reason well enough or have enough factual information to really understand science. They are capable of learning quite a bit of rote information that will serve as a background for later when they have enough math, chemistry, and physics and biology to actually do “science” My husband has judged many school science fairs (yes he volunteered) and what passes for “experiments” are first, mostly done by overburdened parents, and second, not experiments at all, but actually demonstrations.

“Seriously, in this era of school cutbacks you think districts have more than enough?”
Yes I do and they should learn to live within their means.

"I don't know what kind of mother you are, but if I have to roll up my sleeves so my kids don't have to have more than 20 kids in class or can have music classes, so be it. Isn't Amy and everyone here always talking about the necessity of public involvement in the public schools. (We're exactly the kind of school Amy's program would benefit, except our kids are too young.)"

The answer is obviously, I am a terrible mother who asks a lot of uncomfortable questions about what the government does with my money, and am unwilling to throw it randomly at a school without having a pretty good idea of what kind of results (if any) it might be buying. The best education either of my kids every received was at a Catholic school with 26 first graders in one room. Tuition was less than my property taxes for one year and the teacher (a nun) said that 26 was easy. She had taught as many as 35. Every child in that class, and there were a number of low income hispanics on scholarship, learned to read, and read well. It was everything I could ever ask as a parent. Classroom size is a red herring that the NEA uses to make sure that the school district has to hire as many potential new union members as possible. Again, I would love to look at your districts funding numbers.
My children did music in school. But the school music program was so minimal that no one became a competent musician without private lessons. Both of my children had these and my son is a professional musician who is paid very well. The private sector covers these needs very nicely. Schools today try to do way too much, and a little bit of everything, and invariably do nothing well.

“Please since you're a self-declared real woman define a real job for me? Is it based on income? Is it 40 hours a week? Do you have to have a boss? Can you be the boss? Does sustaining an entire family on your income define it?”

You can do anything you like. I don't really care but I think it is really counterproductive to raise money for the government for free. Why don't you send some extra into the IRS while you are at it? I don’t think you are a bad person. Just very naive about what your children’s school and the district would be doing without your efforts. You will never change their priorities by enabling them to have it all and then plead poverty. I believe that your job as a taxpayer and a parent is to ensure that the school's and the district’s priorities in the classroom match yours. If they don’t you should either vote with your feet (which under many systems would remove funding for your child from the district) or you should be applying pressure as a voter to elect people to the school board who share your priorities.

Isabel - Taking a breather from compiling reports (I will never be comfortable with Excel, ever).

The money is coming from the families, obviously. But in small weekly amounts that won't dent anyone's budget.

I never said administrative overhead wasn't insanely out of whack -- even though we're in a tiny school district with a wonderful reputation (but a wide discrepancy between average household incomes in each of its schools). And you have no idea whether I'm fighting the school board while fighting to give my kids the best education possible while they're in the classroom. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

And you're kidding me on the science, right? It's not like we're forcing chemistry on elementary school kids. It's to get them grounded in the sciences and give them a love of science (and math) and not just drop it on them in middle school and expect miracles. Isn't that another thing people are always posting about on this blog: catching up to other countries in the math and sciences. Do you think Japan waits until high school to get its students acclimated?

And classroom size isn't a red herring if the classroom is hugely diverse economically, racially and ethnically. It's sad but true: a lot of kids need to get from school from they can't get from home (but, hey, you'd get along well with their parents -- they don't volunteer at school, either!)

Thanks for the work break and the laughs. Back to the ledger with me.

"And you're kidding me on the science, right? It's not like we're forcing chemistry on elementary school kids. It's to get them grounded in the sciences and give them a love of science (and math) and not just drop it on them in middle school and expect miracles. Isn't that another thing people are always posting about on this blog: catching up to other countries in the math and sciences. Do you think Japan waits until high school to get its students acclimated?"

I don't know what you are talking about when you use terms like "grounded" "giving someone a love of science" and "acclimated" Most of these terms I hear used by professional educators (and I use that term loosely) who have no clear goals and no clearly defined lesson plans. In short. they have no idea what they are actually teaching, if anything, and how they are going to measure the results. The fact that they are failing miserably is apparant by watching the standardized test scores declining across all socioeconomic groups in the U.S. Math is like music. You can listen to Mozart all day long for a love of music but you will never learn how to play an instrument or sing well without a great deal of practice, dedication and more repetitive endless boring practice. I think the modern American school system believes that you are teaching children something if they are entertained. If you did some research on the Japanese system you would realize that their schools are a heck of a lot more boring than American schools tend to be. The days are longer. They spend more time in the classroom and they do more homework. Most of the ambitious who want to get into a good college go to a seperate prepratory school on Saturdays. A lot of their education involves repetitive boring drills like endless math problems, and foreign language vocabulary which they memorize. The work is designed to teach rote skills and concepts that are necessary if you are ever going to be able to do math and science accurately. I had a Japanese exchange student living with me for a year. These methods (kind of like the Saxon math program) and a generally higher IQ is why they are ahead of us in math and science. American students are so used to being entertained rather than educated they do not have the self discipline or (external discipline imposed on them) to be able to learn the basics that will allow them to go on to Algebra, calculus, physics and chemistry. Schools and teachers in the US try and compete with TV and video games for the children's attention. In many other countries they do not. Many other countries in the world realize that a lot of things you need to know to go on to an advanced education are boring, but you need to learn them anyway.

Just finished my project (er, check the time Cousin Dave).

Isabel - House rules: No TV except on the weekends. The weekly video game allotment: 30 minutes -- when chores are done and allowance is paid (25 cents for each year). My six year old just picked up a 5th grade level book -- 156 pages -- and polished it off in two days. My oldest is getting her master's in public policy after graduating with honors from a top university on academic scholarship. (Yeah, it's a huge age gap, I know; there were "circumstances.")

Damn those public schools and parents who think it's important to get involved!

I actually agree with much of what you say. I just think your reaction to it is ridiculous: run from the schools instead of repair them at every level (including administrative). Oh, and I've lived in Japan and Germany and several other countries -- and speak their languages at least conversationally, so don't have to rely on a single exchange student to explain the experience to me.

This is my first Amy blog debate, it's been fun, but this real woman has got to run. Gotta shower, make lunches, and get back to work.

"Actually, people who live in racially diverse neighborhoods score higher on racism traits than the general public. Not that that has anything to do with your larger point :) but it's an interesting little factoid."

Momof4 I'd love to see that study.

OK, Julie, so I was jerking your chain, but... if you go back to the statistics, women are far more likely then men to take jobs that offer the kind of flexible working arrangements that allow them to go to all of these school-related events during the daytime. That's because most families still regard the husband as the primary breadwinner in the family, and I seriously doubt that that's going to change anytime soon. When I was a young child, most of the schools had things like PTA meetings in the evening so that more parents could attend. My mom and dad both went to ours, and I recall quite a few other fathers being there.

And yes, I have tried volunteering for classroom activities. The teachers were thrilled, but the administration made it very clear that my presence as an adult male was not desired and that they regarded me as a threat. I didn't want negative reviews getting back to my employer (it was a program they sponsored), so I stopped.

And I totally agree with all of Isabel's points. The level of waste in public school systems is incredible. Per-pupil spending in public schools since about 1980 has far outstripped inflation, and teacher salaries (at least around here) are now very competitive with other jobs requiring a similar education level. Yet the NEA and the school districts are still poor-mouthing like it was the 1970s. Isabel is absolutely right in shortages of textbooks and supplies are artificial crises, manufacturered to play on public sympathies and get more funding. The real problem is that anything that's related to actual classroom instruction is at the bottom of the funding priority list; absolutely everything that's administration-related comes first. And like Isabel, I'm not in the mood to give the government free money just so the bureaucrats can feather their nests more.

(I mostly have sympathy for the teachers, but... they are the ones who keep the NEA in business.)

Cousin Dave -- I was just yanking your chain back.

You're right on the breadwinner status, although our school has a large number of single mothers (myself included). And for the majority of my adult life I had deadline-consumed jobs at large corporations. Nothing flexible about them. But I still figured it out, even if it meant arriving early, foregoing lunch, never making small talk, and taking stacks of work home.

I bet as more men share custody or gain full custody they'll figure it out too. Necessity is like that!

Most PTA meetings are in the evening. Dads still don't come.

That's a shame about your school (not to mention asinine). I just haven't seen it where we are. Maybe that's one advantage of having a disadvantaged school: they'll take any and all help.

Julie -

It's because the leftists haven't taken over your local school administration yet.

Yet.

"Most PTA meetings are in the evening. Dads still don't come. "

"Evening" covers a lot of ground. When does this or that specific meeting start, because that si the only time that actually matters - 6:00 PM? That's when a lot of workers are just gettintg home, if that early. Not exactly tailored to accomodating working - breadwinner - parents. More tailored to looking like they accomodate breadwinner parents, probably. The moms who commute don't go either. Can't.

Been down this road.

Julie:

I suspect that this is the study that MomOf4 is referring to ..

^ Robert Putnam (2007). "E Pluribus Unum: Diversity and Community in the Twenty-first Century -- The 2006 Johan Skytte Prize Lecture". Scandinavian Political Studies 30 (2)

And guys, I"m not saying it's all men's fault on the volunteer front. But if you tuck tail and run it won't change. People who live next door to different kinds of people tend to find commonalities -- and levels of comfort not previously shared. Same with schools. Get out there and put in an hour or two. The more who do, the more familiar it will become, the more it will become not just accepted but expected. As I said in my first post, I was SO pleased to see two dads sign up to help in the classroom. And if anyone gives them grief, I'll be the first one to have their backs.

Posted by: JulieA at October 5, 2009 6:13 PM
-------------------

While I get your point and agree that it would be good if more men didn't shirk off getting involved, its a bit more complicated than you make out.

Cousin Dave's example being a perfect one. You can't sit there and say, "get involved more!" when the downside isn't having the local hens chuckling over you making a silly mistake regarding kids, its having the local constabulary ruin your life because you supposedly "molestered" (see southpark tv show) some kid.

"Having their backs" is a nice sentiment but you'll have to forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical that women and mothers would be lining up outside the courthouse to protest a bad arrest in any real numbers. Well, unless its someone famous who agrees with your poliitics (see Clinton and NOW or Whoopi and Polanski).

I watched a local DA here in Oregon (McMinnville) go after 3 12 year old boys for sexual assault charges. The media over played it a bit with the "they face up to 5 years in jail!" lines but the DA wanted to make an example of these boys who were spanking girls on their butts one day in school as some school prank deal. Nevermind many of the girls gave back what they got (or started it), nevermind that the school cop questioned some girls about their actions and those of the boys, only 3 boys were sitting in a courtroom months later. Cooler heads prevailed and the boys got a slap on the wrist but had to apologize in court and pay around $500 for some girl's counseling over the trauma.

>>"Evening" covers a lot of ground. When does this or that specific meeting start, because that's the only time that actually matters - 6:00 PM? That's when a lot of workers are just getting home..."

Jim,
Sure - these end-of-rush-hour evening meetings are a gigantic pain - for ALL working parents! I've stood in line with numerous other hassled working moms and dads on school nights, wishing the meetings could start much later - it's just a part of being a parent.

Cousin Dave (yeah, it's 10:30 a.m., I know, I'm exhausted from two all-nighters and cutting myself some slack as my boss): I actually agree that the spending on overhead and administrative is crazy. But it doesn't help me or my kids to say, 'Screw it!' and just abandon them to the public system since I can't afford private. That's why I'm involved, and why this morning I wrote a check to the teacher -- and handed it directly to the teacher. My donation will go exactly where I want it -- the classroom. And I got to specify how it would be spent. And I just don't see how anyone could fault raising money for a new library and pulling it off in this economy. Oh, we're in California, where times really suck right now.

PTA meetings are at 6:30 p.m. If they were later, tired working parents (ME!) would complain about that too.

Sio - I'm hardly some simpleton. I know it's complicated. I also know there are a thousand things fathers can do to help at school that would ease everyone into their presence (but like i said, our school welcomes them). I'm sorry, but I think it's a cop-out to do otherwise. And i think it makes an active argument against men getting custody of kids if they're going to say they can't be involved in their kids schools because someone might make an accusation. Someone could accuse me of stealing (I handle school money) or slapping a kid or any number of things. It doesn't cow me out of volunteering.

Thanks for the study Moo. I'll check it out.

Actually I was referring to something I read in college, and I graduated in '03. But, I'm interested to read the above one as well. I can't find the one I read. Either it's not online or my searching needs help.

I minored in sociology and am full of useless factoids about people in groups.

My elementary was in a nice neighborhood, and only pulled form that nice neighborhood, so plenty of tax $. We were using microscopes in elementary. Did lots of science, actually, and that's what started my love of it. I majored in biology/genetics in college. Saying that little kids don't do experimetns is false. They may do experiments on something you already have a solid knowledge of, but it's important for them. Just like testing gravity by dropping things is important for babies.

I always went to the "good" schools, and the amount of time wasted at them by other, slower or goofing off students was crazy. So class size does matter. Fewer students=less time spent on crap and more time teaching. I can not BELIEVE O-idiot wants to lengthen the school day. What, smart kids don't twiddle their thumbs enough already throughout the day?

"Jim,
Sure - these end-of-rush-hour evening meetings are a gigantic pain - for ALL working parents! I've stood in line with numerous other hassled working moms and dads on school nights, wishing the meetings could start much later - it's just a part of being a parent."

I know. and I've seen it from the teachers' side too. It just seems like it wouldn't be such a sacrifice to start them at 7:00. That's all.

"But if you tuck tail and run it won't change. "

Yeppers, JulieA. And Sio points out what that action should be - crippling lawsuits aimed at overzealous DAs and bigoted policemen and busybody women who make false accusations based on nothing but their prejudices - a few decades of that and they think three times before they launch a life-destroying lie at someone.

Julie writes: "That's a shame about your school (not to mention asinine). I just haven't seen it where we are. Maybe that's one advantage of having a disadvantaged school: they'll take any and all help."

This was a disadvantaged school. Having seen its administration up close and personal, I now have a good idea why it's disadvantaged. The administration did not give a damn about anything except protecting their turf. The teachers, in private, told me some horror stories. I won't repeat them because it might get someone in trouble if someone should happen to see this. Suffice it to say that the teachers are practically begging for help, and the administration is worse than useless.

"That's why I'm involved, and why this morning I wrote a check to the teacher -- and handed it directly to the teacher."

You know something? I offered to help a teacher try to get a grant paid directly to her from a corporate fund that I know of. Turns out there's some law against that in our state; teachers are not allowed to accept donations or grants made directly to them. Everything has to go through the school. Can you believe that? The school board and the administration have got them locked up tight. I have no doubt that this was something the NEA rammed through the state legislature.

> I'm just back from a meeting for
> the school's big event of the
> year. Maybe 30 parents -- every
> single one of them a mom. Maybe
> if fathers didn't make themselves
> so scarce

I suspect more fathers would be present in those meetings if the mother's had already thrown them out of their family's lives (in all respects save the financial).

Or permitted them to walk out.

OR selected them as fathers with the certainty that they'd soon be out of the picture anyway.

By nature, women are often enchanted by and concerned with children. Men, in general, aren't fascinated with the character of children, and that sometimes includes their own. Masculine interest has to be encouraged.

PS— Social pressures on men aren't the problem, social pressures on men are the solution.

Typo!

.. if the mothers hadn't already thrown them out...

You knew that, right?

Crid - As usual, I have no real idea what you're talking about.

It's like you're a living, breathing example of the sentence "Beautiful green dreams sleep idly," which Noam Chomsky called (I'm paraphrasing) a gorgeous, grammatically correct sentence that is utterly without meaning.

Then again, you're a guy with a failed marriage and no children and what appears to be nothing else but this blog to occupy his time.

I took home the sign-in sheet so: There were 31 moms at the meeting.
All but four are married, and two of those are widows. So for certain we know where two of the dads were.

Other than that, I can't address your comments because they're just green dreams.

when they act like typical boys - oh my, time for counseling, or shall we just call the police?

I've often wondered if boys acting like boys is the reason why so many elementary school boys are diagnosed with ADD. It is a legitimate problem, but expecting a little boy to sit still for hours on end is unrealistic.

-Julie

I do so agree, JulieA.

You wrote, Crid: "By nature, women are often enchanted by and concerned with children. Men, in general, aren't fascinated with the character of children, and that sometimes includes their own. Masculine interest has to be encouraged.

Your thoughts (which I'm sure are lively & extensive) on the mysteries of feminine versus masculine nature have no bearing on men who WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH KIDS IN SCHOOL.

"I've often wondered if boys acting like boys is the reason why so many elementary school boys are diagnosed with ADD. It is a legitimate problem, but expecting a little boy to sit still for hours on end is unrealistic."

Yes and this shit happens to little girls too. Typically they don't get diagnosed because their behavior is to sit and dream, rhather than to poke and joke, and sitting and dreaming doesn't inconvenience the teacher the way the there behavior does. A lot of this has to tdo with the conveninence and incompetence of teachers at leading kids and controlling a classroom. Poor leadership skills sanctified by a protective mafia.

ADD, or ADHD as it is called these days, is a real condition and it is about as disordered as left-handedness. Unfortunatley the ignorant superstitions that use to afflict left-handed people still afflict ADHD people. I'm at the point in life where I think an icepick in the side of the neck is about the only useful approach to ignorant, superstitious people, but that doesn't really hold out much promise of help to people dealing with it.

Jody -

If memory serves, it was actually "Furious green dreams sleep idly."

Still without meaning, though.

If memory serves, it was actually "Furious green dreams sleep idly."

JulieA,
To continue the theme (sorta!) I've always loved Marvell's lines from "The Garden":

"Annihilating all that's made
To a green thought in a green shade".

> I have no real idea what you're
> talking about.

...and yet...

> Then again, you're a guy with a
> failed marriage and no children and
> what appears to be nothing else but
> this blog to occupy his time.

Well meee-yow! With no clarity, I've managed to get well under your skin. How did that happen, exactly?

> Your thoughts (which I'm sure are
> lively & extensive) on the
> mysteries of feminine versus
> masculine nature

You oughta be sure, as often as we've tangled.

> have no bearing on men who WANT
> TO GET INVOLVED WITH KIDS IN
> SCHOOL.

Why not? Are men who want to get involved with kids in school greatly different from other men?
______

Always amazed by the things that set people off... Some people can't even make peace with concurrence.

Cousin Dave said...

You know something? I offered to help a teacher try to get a grant paid directly to her from a corporate fund that I know of. Turns out there's some law against that in our state; teachers are not allowed to accept donations or grants made directly to them. Everything has to go through the school. Can you believe that? The school board and the administration have got them locked up tight. I have no doubt that this was something the NEA rammed through the state legislature.

These sorts of rules exist in many organisations including the private sector. They are particularly important in government however.

It's all about transparency Dave.

I've spent twenty years working within government some of which involved contracting with or purchasing from private enterprise. I've been offered cartons of whiskey, tickets to sporting events, even cash, and many other things to "grease wheels".

You can't have just anybody, willy nilly, taking or dispersing money in an organisation. At the very least it gives the appearance of disorder. It carries with it a huge potential for corruption. Any entity can be destabilised merely by the appearance, let alone reality, of something gone wrong. An entirely solvent bank can suffer a run because of rumours and gossip. Entire government departments become locked in stasis while politicians argue about a TV or a bloody teddy bear(as has happened in Australia).

I believe you would find that if you made a donation sufficient to fund something specific to a given school you could provision it to target a particular activity. It would certainly work that way in my country.

Ultimately what REALLY matters isn't how money gets into the systems. It's about how it's spent. That's where you and I and everyone else really need a say.

One thing to consider Dave...maybe a little bit of socialism can be a good thing thing in these instances. If all incoming moneys are specifically targetting particular things as defined by the donors it's very likely that only the "fashionable" things will get it. How do you think boys are going in our schools at the moment?

>>Are men who want to get involved with kids in school greatly different from other men?

Gimme strength!

Yes, Crid, the men who wish to become involved with kids in school are clearly strikingly different from the guys YOU tried to wedge into the conversation.

You know - the ones you insisted had already been booted from their kids' lives by the monstrous regiment of mothers, in addition to being further naturally disinclined - as men - to be "fascinated with the character of children".

gwallan: "I've spent twenty years working within government some of which involved contracting with or purchasing from private enterprise. I've been offered cartons of whiskey, tickets to sporting events, even cash, and many other things to "grease wheels".

I'm not offering them bribes, you goddam motherfucker! If you repeat that, I'm going to find out who you are and sue you for libel. Asshole.

The rest of gwallan's speech just reinforces what I said: it's about control.

>>I'm not offering them bribes, you goddam motherfucker! If you repeat that, I'm going to find out who you are and sue you for libel. Asshole.

Cousin Dave,
I don't know if you & gwallan have a hostile history, but fwiw, I didn't remotely detect any slurs on you in that comment.

(The details are too dull to recount here, but there was a similar issue of rejected corporate - science - sponsorship at my kids' high school because it was being funneled through an individual teacher. The rejection did, in fact, make sense in the end.)

> Gimme strength!

Pray for clarity instead.

> the ones you insisted had already
> been booted from their kids' lives

I was jus' asking... Actually, "suspect" was the word I used. I mean, golly... Why do you folks think no men showed up? Apparently it's 'cause husbands are just irresponsible meanies who need to be clucked at, and anyone who interferes with that judgment by considering deeper forces is a bee in your bonnet.

>>I mean, golly... Why do you folks think no men showed up?

Well, golly gee, Crid - why don't you try fucking reading the comments in this thread?

Rather than elbowing in to blather that the problem with school meetings is childcentric feminine enchantment versus the priorities of the marginalized male?

Here ya go:

1. "I have been subject to this sort of discrimination. Being automatically suspect, as a man, because you like working with kids - it is just plain frustrating..."

2. "Guys like my brother, who coaches little league and is an active member of his church, and a real stand-up kinda guy, rarely, if ever, make the news..."

3. "There is a group started by a dad after a school shooting called Watch Dogs. Their goal is to have a dad in every school of the country, every day of the year.
Just hanging out, being there, talking to students, whatever..."

4. "Up until recently, the chance of me being able to take mid-morning time off to go to a school meeting would have been very close to zero.."

5. "I am a man and I taught school for a while. I taught high school and loved it, and subbed in middle schools and loved it..."

6. "I was asked to be a Girls Basketball coach by a friend a few years ago, I politely refused because of the possible negative consequences, even though I know I could be of some value, it's sad, but it is what it is..."

7. "And yes, I have tried volunteering for classroom activities. The teachers were thrilled, but the administration made it very clear that my presence as an adult male was not desired and that they regarded me as a threat..."

Right. So what you want is: ____________________.

(To encourage men to participate, perhaps? Jus' thinking out loud here.)

ADD, or ADHD as it is called these days, is a real condition and it is about as disordered as left-handedness. Unfortunatley the ignorant superstitions that use to afflict left-handed people still afflict ADHD people. I'm at the point in life where I think an icepick in the side of the neck is about the only useful approach to ignorant, superstitious people, but that doesn't really hold out much promise of help to people dealing with it.

My husband is very severely ADD. We often have to see movies he likes twice so that he can follow the entire plot because he is up and down so much he can't sit still for 1.5/2 hours. However he is brilliant and wonderful the way he is. His mom is still consistently trying to push him to take medication, but he never noticed a difference, so why take it?

Yes and this shit happens to little girls too. Typically they don't get diagnosed because their behavior is to sit and dream, rhather than to poke and joke, and sitting and dreaming doesn't inconvenience the teacher the way the there behavior does.

Again, this is why there were two recesses, many changes in activities (math to reading to social studies to science to art etc) and a long lunch when I was in elementary school. Now they are making the days longer and reducing the outside run around time. I couldn't sit in a room quietly for 8 hours listening to a lecture. Why do we expect kids to do it?

I understand that I am the woman who advocates for narcotic pain management, but pills are not the solution to everything!

-Julie

Gimme strength!

@Jody I have found only one effective way to deal with Crid:

*Julie pats Crid on the head and says, "Here you go...a nice shiny ball!"

He should be distracted for a little while so that you can talk with the grown ups.

-Julie

Don't be snotty.

Somewhat on point!

@Cousin Dave...

No slur toward your good self was intended.

I was merely trying to present a case as to why organisations can't simply take money any old how.

I'll take better care with my phrasing in future.