You know, there was a time when feminism was about getting women an equal shake. These days, it seems to be all about being the Ultimate Victims.

My dad told me to worry if men stop looking. I think that's pretty good advice.

More demonization of male sexuality, anyone?

Also, should people who go all to pieces when subjected to the malevolent "male gaze" be trusted as police, military officers, legislators, etc.? Sorry, I don't think such delicate little flowers could possibly stand up under the stress -- they likely would succumb to a fit of the vapors.

Don't women understand how pathetic and weak they make themselves appear with these "I'm so fearful" comments?

"My dad told me to worry if men stop looking."

Amy, I think you have little reason to worry. ;)

> I am feeling extremely anxious and
> uncomfortable and sad and scared,
> and I'm feeling ANGRY

Tell me again why women are always reporting what they feel.

Y'know, the thing about pieces like these are you can never be sure the editor didn't write a few comments just to stoke the fire. But even if he had, this was golden:

> I am a sexual person

I used to listen to Loveline, and when a teenage girl called with a problem and said "But I'm a very sexual person!", listeners could be certain she was intensely naive . When most folks decide to be sexual, they start paying attention to others people's feelings, sexual and otherwise.

aw, let the shrinking violets self-select out of the gene pool... comment guy was right about a lot of things, but for women who take offense? Welll... you will never placate them. It's just better if they are ignorant of the way a guys brain works if they are going to need the smelling salts after [right on! Jay R]. For whatever reason we were made this way, we are. So basically there isn't a way around it. This is both truth and fact. Sadly, the women aren't trying to figure out the good parts about guys at all. 1:10,000 girl is stupid. Why worry about such a longshot thing, when it is likely that those other 9999 guys would like nothing better than to protect you. There is a vast number of those guys who would do anything for you. Some percentage are going to worship the ground you walk on.

And she worries about that one guy? If you have a brain you are likely to figure out who it is and avoid them. Which leads me to a favorite cliche movie line. A life lived in fear, is a life half lived. AND it's from a chickflick! OI!

so... amy, I want looking for the source article and comments again, and the links just send you to the life frontpage, so's you know.

I did read an interesting article on the real reason why women are so unhappy there. I couldn't help but be pragmatic, and wonder if the some of the answer is that they MAKE themselves that way... one of the stats talked about in the article was that only 3% of women in Japan have depression, vs 17% here... and I did the W-T-F? Oddly enough, for women wh marry in Japan, usually immediately stop working, and start having kids, and don't go back to work until the kids are in middle school. IF they go back. This is an expectation there, and a rigid one. 3 of my friends who have gotten hitched there, have all figured this out. Japan has it's own problems, but it's pretty tough to compare it to here.

As someone who travels, mostly by air, for business WAY too much, this article makes me anxious, sad and is giving me an ulcer. I spend a lot of time in airports and pass much time by people watching (with a significant portion of that dedicated to eye candy watching). How dare I get judged for how I pass my over abundant amount of useless time!

A service to all men would be to have the writers of those responses wear some grandiose insignia (maybe it incorporates a panic button linked to the 911 system) that signifies their fear and horror at normal male behavior. Every male will see it on them and know to refrain from giving them even a microsecond of a glance (it will also be extremely helpful to know who they are for non dating purposes).

"Hysteria"? I think they passed hysteria and are closing in on psychosis.

I am not sure why your link isn't working for me, but I found the article here:

http://www.doublex.com/section/life/dandy%E2%80%99s-guide-girl-watching

What I have learned about some woman's perspective:

It's not okay for you to rape me. (Assault crime)
It's not okay for you to say anything about me. (Speech crime)
It's not okay for you to look at me. (Gesture crime)
It's not okay for you to think about me. (Thought crime.)

Unless, of course, you're hot, and I find you desirable. And then it's a crime if you don't!

Here's a short instructional video to help you out: (slightly de-htmlized to confound the filters.)

play.killerfrog.com/b8b8b8l0/SNL-Skit-on-Sexual-Harassment.html

I hope that helps clarify the situation.

Regarding being happy, this book -- The How of Happiness: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want -- by my friend Sonja Lyubomirsky, gives research-based ideas about what it takes. One of them is having gratitude, and I think that's a big one in my life. There's a big part of me that's a little kid -- excited by and grateful for the small things in life, like the two strips of bacon I just ate, and for going out yesterday and seeing the shells my neighbor's kids collected, and for the support friends are giving me during this period in book hell!

I notice in many unhappy women I speak to a certain pissiness about life. Per Sonja's work, it seems you can change your orientation if you just want to, focus on changing, and make an effort to do so. She found that about 40 percent of your happiness is changeable (with stuff like gratitude), and the rest is environmental and genetic.

Sonja's work is a pretty important part of the last chapter of my book. PS My book just got a really nice review on Twitter from a woman whose work I'm going to blog about soon:

@sciencegoddess I just got done reading preview copy of "I see Rude People" by @amyalkon. It was such a fun book, sorta sad it ended!

Now THAT made me very happy, and I don't think there's any chance I'll suffer what Sonja wrote about -- "hedonic adaptation" -- if there are more like that.

Thanks -- reposted it -- although it may just bounce to their homepage again...grrrr...and thanks for posting that second link without the html. In book hell, and it helps to not have stuff go to spam today!

"It was such a fun book, sorta sad it ended!"

I know that feeling -- quite a compliment!

Blatantly staring at people is rude. It's just plain bad manners. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'll agree with Nicole. Blatant staring is just rude. But there is a difference between a stare...and a brief glance assessing someone's physical attractiveness by my own standards, along with perhaps a double take if she's delightful to look at.

That said though, I'm not surprised so many American women are unhappy.

They've spent the last 40 years hearing men be demonized...its tough to be required to hate the good men in one's life, and be happy.

They've spent the last 40 years listening to other unhappy women try to convince them that women & men are identical, when it is our differences which can make sparks fly and our interactions be so much fun. Hard to be happy under those circumstances.

They've spent the last 40 years being told their only happiness can be found in avoiding marriage, and that children are a burden that enslaves women...ergo they must deny any maternal desires or instincts. Its tough to deny yourself something your nature demands...and be happy. Doubt it? Just ask a gay person who tried to deny their homosexuality to themselves.

They've spent the last 40 years being told by other women "experts" that the only path to happiness is to act as much like men as possible...and that their feminine instincts or frank "girliness" is bad. How can that make someone happy?

They've spent the last 40 years being told that they are oppressed by the patriarchy, and that men are predators out to rape & abuse them. Its tough to be happy...living in fear of half the population.

They've spent the last 40 years creating "the victim industrial complex" convincing other women that they are victims doomed to fail...its tough to be happy...living as a victim.

Everything male, has been depicted as evil unless it is done or practiced by women...and everything female...has also been depicted as oppressive, evil, or victimizing...all by the same feminist rags, talk shows, and "experts", that started ranting 40 years ago. The real question isn't why 17% of women suffer from depression that we know of...but how many more there really are, and however many there are, how the devil is it that there aren't more of them?

Back in the days when I was still single, I noticed a lot of ads from women which read "I'm such and such an age but I still turn heads." You see the same type of attitude in Latin countries. Men there are much more blatant, yet most of the women there seem to appreciate the attention (within reason, I assume).

Obviously, a man needs to exercise some restraint. Looking at a woman should convey a sense of *appreciation* of her, rather than some creepy sense of leering.

For those women still bothered though, cheer up. The day will come when men will no longer pay attention to you at all.

>> The day will come when men will no longer pay attention to you at all.

Well, I rather regret that last sentence, after reviewing it. But not entirely. There's something about demanding that men not check women out that irritates me. At a deep level, I identify a fair amount of my maleness with that behavior. It's just part of being male for me, at a very deep level.

These girls who are freaking out should quit worrying ... I have a hunch they aren't the ones the men are staring at anyway. In fact, that's probably the part that's bothering them.

I can't help but think of the larry sommers (or was it summers) incident, in which he suggested that biological differences might account for at least part of the shortage of women in certain scientific fields. A few women ran crying from the room, some supposedly fainted, and others said they wanted to faint, or vomit, on the spot.

Now I think of that reaction, and I think of the perspectives presently under discussion as coming from some of the fairer sex.

And I wonder how it is that such women expect men to take them seriously.

I'm reminded of a dilbert strip in which a female intern or some such is being lightly reprimanded by the boss, her response is to immediately cry and shout "everyone hates me no matter what I do!". Subsequently a female engineer approaches her as the boss retreats and says to her, "Thanks, that lowered the glass ceiling by about a foot."

I adore women, I've worked with many, but I've born witness to such conduct time and again, hysteria, self endowed victim status, and so on and so forth, more times than I can count, and from a much higher percentage of females than any one even the most intelligent women here would believe.

I know we're not supposed to judge groups based on individuals...but if a large percentage of individuals belonging to said group behave in a particularly undesirable & consistent manner, wouldn't it be inhuman NOT to begin to harbor a degree of wariness over them?

If women as a group want to be taken seriously, they need to start by ceasing to offer empathy to those who make a joke or a weapon of their gender. Instead of burying themselves in oprahesque lust for victimhood (like that trainwreck daughter of whatsisname from the mamas & the papas who was claiming 10 years of abuse by her father after she grew up)

Yes, I know some of you here already know how to behave in a way that will win your colleagues respect, get the job done, and get ahead, hence...why some of you already are successful in your chosen fields. But even you must admit, as you've seen it yourself, how rare your qualities are.

I would submit that a fair bit of Miss Alkon's relative hostility to the female complaint is because she's confronted those very issues amongst others of her gender.

But these are just my assessments you are all of course, quite welcome to disagree, indeed if any of you do, I look forward to your counterpoints. On some issues, I'd rather my perspective turn out to be incorrect. I fear though, that on this one I am not.

Robert says:

I can't help but think of the larry sommers (or was it summers) incident, in which he suggested that biological differences might account for at least part of the shortage of women in certain scientific fields. A few women ran crying from the room, some supposedly fainted, and others said they wanted to faint, or vomit, on the spot.
Now I think of that reaction, and I think of the perspectives presently under discussion as coming from some of the fairer sex.
And I wonder how it is that such women expect men to take them seriously.

Here's how: After they recovered from their collective hysterical fainting spells, they got him fired. So we probably should take the sniveling little tyrants seriously.

Robert, I should probably mention that I know you meant "take them seriously" as adult humans, while I meant take them seriously as threats to liberty, and I agree with your assessments.

Gotta agree with Pirate Jo! I like being looked at, and will be unhappy when I stop turning heads. Hasn't happened yet, but I know the day is coming. Maybe when I'm 70...

That said, being looked at is different than being leered at, but the thing is, if the guy doing the looking is only looking, where's the harm? There isn't any, as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, I'm walking down the street, and some guy appreciates the way I look or walk or whatever, that's an ego boost for me. To look at it any other way is kinda silly, and paranoid, too. It's not like the guy's gonna attack me or anything; there are still laws in place that would prevent that. We don't need the Brain Police monitoring our every thought - egads, 3/4 of the population would be in jail just for thinking about killing someone! (I admit it, I think about how nice it would be, just to be able to shoot my little dashboard-mounted rocket launcher at the idiot in the car in front of me on their cell phone! I fantasize about it! I could easily get off on it! Damn! Where's my PU-36 explosive space modulator?)

Go to any national park, even the ones with the most spectacular scenery, like the Grand Canyon or Banff, and look around. You'll see for yourself that the most popular activity among men there is the same as it is in shopping malls - girl-watching! The femininny's battle against natural instincts hasn't progressed nearly as far as you'd think from reading all those hysterical comments.

And I wonder how it is that such women expect men to take them seriously.

For people like this, being taken seriously is just another entitlement. It's not something that you earn. This is why they're always amplifying their aggrievement - that they don't feel 'safe', that they are oppressed by some idea or experience. What they're really doing is jockeying for status. In their culture victims are privileged.

The very idea that respect and 'being taken seriously' should be earned is offensive to them.

And it's not just women, plenty of men play this game as well.

Any woman that feels victimized by the appreciative glances of an admiring male is a pathetic soul.

I refuse to feel guilty for being a normal male human being and resent the implication that the innate sexuality that compels ALL HUMANS to look at each other as prospective partners and make judgments about each others appearance is somehow harmful.

How to handle lascivious looks from a man you aren't interested in? With a laugh. A *friendly* laugh. This isn't Saudi Arabia, for chrissake. Show some fuckin' game, you silly women. Make some friends. It won't kill ya.

What's bizarre about their complaints is that they seem to expect that they should have the ability to dictate what men should think and feel.

It's one thing to resent being leered at, but they wish to prohibit any visual observation that evokes a mental state that some woman could find offensive. They want the authority to determine the content of mens' minds. They don't believe that men have the right to exist as sovereign, self determining, individuals. This perspective is much more dehumanizing than the 'objectification' that they infer from a passing glance.

Moo wrote: "What's bizarre about their complaints is that they seem to expect that they should have the ability to dictate what men should think and feel."

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant! This so succinctly sums up my own thoughts.

By the way, after reading how "freaked out" many of the women purport to be, it's no longer surprising why I gave up trying to talk with women I met in coffee shops, etc. here in Vancouver. Apparently saying "Good Morning" to someone you pass by on the street is akin to sexual harrassment for some. :-(

"I can't help but think of the [Harvard President Summers] incident, in which he suggested that biological differences might account for at least part of the shortage of women in certain scientific fields. ...
Now I think of that reaction, and I think of the perspectives presently under discussion as coming from some of the fairer sex.
And I wonder how it is that such women expect men to take them seriously."

Easy. We live in a time where people can be that silly without real consequence. It seems pretty well understood that in most populations, more men are suited for abstract thinking of the type Summers discussed--if you give the population a real chance to sort itself. That is just one of those distributional quirks, kind of like women being predisposed to carry more fat than guys or guys having more upper body strength. Not really a big deal, unless you want to deny a fairly unimportant facet of reality, like Summers' detractors wanted to do.

Fortunately, we live in an age of unbelievable abundance, so we can afford to be silly like that. And women can get all huffy about what thoughts men have about women they see. (Thoughts! Wow. Just wow.)

When subsistence-level existence was the norm, however, a refusal to acknowledge sex differences and organize things along those lines probably meant the village was wiped out by famine or invaders.

I will be interested to see if such grim feedback on behavior is still supplied by the world we inhabit today.

Being in the lodging/rental industry, I see the best and worst behaviors of both genders. It's true what Robert said that far too many women snivel and cry. Last week, I had a female tenant burst into tears, then threaten to vacate, just because I wouldn't give into some ridiculous, extremely petty demand.

Yet, to be fair, males have their own unique way of showing discontentment too. Yesterday, a male tenant threatened to hurt another because of a silly pet dog/bird issue. The threat of violence was unnecessary and extreme.

Women should really stop being such crybabies/victims, and men shouldn't become so physically threatening. I think it's the worst behaviors of both genders that give the rest of us a bad rap with each other.

That said, I like being looked at, even leered at sometimes. I'll take what I can get. lol Who wants to be invisible?

I'd have to agree with lovelysoul, who wants to be invisible?

I LIKE being the noticable big brute, indeed I work to maintain myself as such.

Frankly, I take those particularly frivolous female complaints as a sort of "shit test" to see we have spines. A sort of "How much will they put up with" situation.

If summers had said immediately to the audience after the mass attack of "the vapors" "That is why there aren't more of you in those sciences" they'd not have had a leg to stand on.

True men have their forms of manipulation as well, but in the case of men, its usually nothing that can't be resolved either with closed fists or a beer. And we don't typically indulge the men who act like whiney little shits. that oprahesque fascination and "support" for self proclaimed victimhood just doesn't exist. Woman whines...she's on oprah being told she's brave. Man whines..."Shut up and get back to work dumbass."

Where women emphasize with "connection" with one another, men emphasize status & respect. A man that works harder or makes more or accomplishes what his peer group considers status granting, will get those things. Amongst the female gender, connection often means empathy & understanding, which is fine as far as it goes within female social circles, but men are not good with validating emotions as a general rule.

Look at the arguments the complainers make, they emphasize how these things make them feel, what they seem to want is validation for their feelings, and the fact that men do not change, do not care, and do not validate them, well, it means the men must be demonized and are out to hurt her in some way. In short, its just an extension of most of the other misunderstandings between male and female. Women do not get, that men make very bad women, we're not even remotely the same in many ways.

We don't seek validation & we don't offer it. We don't seek empathy and are not generally good at providing it. (I've tried, I suck at it) We don't look for emotional connections, we look for competitions, we don't fear attention, we enjoy it.

If women really understood what went on in mens heads, most of them would be a combination of horrified & fascinated. Some women come damn close, Miss Alkon certainly has a better grasp than most, though I do think she sometimes overstates biology over culture as a predetermining factor in behavior, I do believe she's as close to the mark as a person could reasonably expect.

Frankly though, if men stop treating stupid complaints seriously, they'd start to dry up. These little petty tyrants, to borrow Robin's phrase, make headway only when men feel bad about things they shouldn't. Men should enjoy being men, and women just leave that well enough alone. Especially social scientist crackpots.

"We don't seek validation & we don't offer it. We don't seek empathy and are not generally good at providing it. (I've tried, I suck at it) We don't look for emotional connections, we look for competitions, we don't fear attention, we enjoy it."

This I disagree with, Robert. Many men in my life offer validation and empathy. I think a man can still be man and show those qualities. Sometimes, the way that men show empathy, love, and validation is different than the way women would do it. My boyfriend shows me more by doing things for me, and through physical affection, but he is also very validating verbally when I need that.

"Where's my PU-36 explosive space modulator?"

Coincidentally, I just watched that episode on YouTube Saturday night :-)

The Larry Summers incident was awful. When I read feminist tripe about 'there are not enough women in rocket science/engineering/math teaching etc etc, I always want to ask why didn't THEY go into one of those fields. I have an idea it would shut them up pretty quickly. There are no laws anywhere keeping women out of any field, so where are they??

There are no laws anywhere keeping women out of any field, so where are they??

Well, those fields aren't inviting to women.

I think it's because math is so violent it scares them off.

The Summers incident was basically a set-up by the faculty for his dismissal, which was actually motivated by more mundane controversies - such as his desire to have them teach foundational and core classes.

Though the facts have been lost in the retelling, what Summers had actually done was to mention innate difference as one of multiple conjectures that could be studied when attempting to explain gender disparities in the hard sciences and mathematics. He didn't endorse, nor even elaborate, on this argument. He'd simply stated it in a cataloging of the viewpoints that address the disparity.

"He didn't endorse, nor even elaborate, on this argument. He'd simply stated it in a cataloging of the viewpoints that address the disparity."

And yet, he ended up with his balls stapled to the wall.

Welcome to the "equality" movement called "feminism."

To the girls in the article- Good luck defying evolution.

I was in a club several years ago and two extremely attractive girls/women came in.

Early 20's, high heels, shortest skirts allowed by law, plunging necklines on their skirts/blouses. They were standing at the next table and were dressed to kill. One extremely drunk guy who was slobbering before they got there now had something to slober over. One of the girls took offense at this guy and complained that he was staring at her. He was about 1 or 2 drinks from falling on the floor.
I thought it was more of a statement of the one girls immaturity to complain about this obvious drunk looking at her. She was bright and shiny with a out fit on and had very little covering the goods. The guy probably would have been happy staring into a lava lamp. My thoughts were you dress like that and go to a bar where there are obviouds drunks there and you don't expect some drunks tongue to hit the floor?

It may be a control thing. A controlling person would not like the fact that others can look at them without permission and think whatever they want about that person. It's not bad, just a personality type. Some people can't stand elevator music, some hate sushi, some need to be in complete control of themselves at all times. Is it realistic to think guys won't look at you? Not if you're remotely attractive, or heck unattractive. Do you have to like it? No. And the world still turns.

You know, maybe if we pantsed more women, then they would complain about that, and not getting "leered" at.

As the stereotypical geek guy, my heart bleeds for these poor poor objectified women.

Then again, maybe I can sympathize. I wish women wouldn't constantly judge me by size of my bank account and/or job.

In one of my classes there is only 1 woman out of about 40 people. That woman is from India. I just find it amazing.

They don't have to become Muslims to wear a burqua. More time wasted over a problem with a very simple solution.

Good point, momoffour.

As for the engineering thing, it's true many of us women just aren't good at math...or we're intimidated by it. Not sure which, but of course, there are still females who ARE good at it. Several friends daughters are now in engineering courses.

I was at the top of my math classes until around 10th grade...probably geometry? Perhaps it's spacial then. I believe males tend to have better spacial intelligence.

Anyway, I did so poorly that I decided I was "bad at math" and didn't pursue any advancement in that subject. So, it might all boil down to how we present math to high school kids. They almost always do algebra, then geometry.

"I wear shorts in the summer because its hot, not because I want men to stare at my ass. "

But what if this is LFlo?

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?p=4339

"The thought of the author doing so makes me want to vomit."

If she just dresses like that no one will think sexual thoughts, but they'll sure stare at her ass. And then THEY will vomit. See, a simple solution.

Yikes!

Thanks, Gretchen. I WAS going to have breakfast this morning!

A google ad on this oage today is from
'CatchHimAndKeepHim.com'

Or as I've said: "If you don't want me to look at them, then don't put them where I can see them."

Mae West: "It's better to be looked over than overlooked."

Women check out other women almost as much, maybe more in certain venues. Sometimes, another woman just has a great outfit on or is exceptionally pretty, and I find myself staring at her - out of appreciation not because I want to have sex with her. I don't recall any woman ever getting mad about that...well, not since high school ("take a picture, it'll last longer!")

I have seen women stare down other women in a mean way that they felt were dressed inappropriately or too sexy for the occassion. Unless you're at a nightclub, it's not considered good form to dress too slutty. That means you're on the prowl, and nobody wants that at the PTA meeting.

Jeezus H. Christ. After reading the comments on that thread, I'm going to start being far, far more careful and leery in my interactions with women. From now on, women that I see in public are just obstacles to be avoided, like poles or rocks; I will pay them no more notice than I need to in order to avoid collisions. I will confine my interactions with women to a handful of safe spaces where I can be pretty sure that my intentions won't be mis-interpreted.

After reading all that, I'm starting to think that some of the misandrists who are so down on American women have a really good point.

"I wear shorts in the summer because its hot, not because I want men to stare at my ass. "

mom4 nailed this one: this is about control. Did it ever cross this spoiled little princess's mind that what she does or doesn't want is not binding on what some stranger does? I guess she's not real clear on the notion that other people are beings independent of her perceptions and wishes. There's a clinical name for this condition.

I wear shorts in the summer because I want men to stare at my ass. Really. I have a great ass. When I want to stay cool, I wear long cotton skirts to keep the sun off my legs.

that was great. this article has given me an ulcer AND made me cry.

Holy shit. What does she do when people cut in front of her in line? Have a nervous breakdown?

This thread is too funny! My girlfriend, who is from Paraguay, thinks it is absurd the way women act here. She says in latin america the women LOVE to get noticed and dress up so men will notice them. Also, she said that women who dress up all hot and then say "I dress up for myself" are lying their asses off.

Too funny...I can look at what I want until they outlaw looking at someone...

I adore women, I've worked with many, but I've born witness to such conduct time and again, hysteria, self endowed victim status, and so on and so forth, more times than I can count, and from a much higher percentage of females than any one even the most intelligent women here would believe.

I work in IT (as I have mentioned before) and I actually make a point of being one of the guys, including in how I dress. We give each other shit, give each other verbal rabbit punches, etc. It is all in good fun and I would no more burst into tears at work than cut off my nose. I can't think of a single situation (except being RIF'd....maybe) where tears are justified in the workplace. The women I've worked with (few and far between) don't get this idea. My current fellow female refuses to lift ANYTHING! Seriously, she expects the guys in the group to carry her servers for her and do all hardware repairs on her behalf. You should see some of the eye rolls that are done when she isn't around. She doesn't get anyone's respect.

Outside of work, it is nice to be looked at, and there is a difference between being looked at and a man being creepy. Frankly, I'm one of those wives who points beautiful women out to my husband. What does looking hurt?

I think it's because math is so violent it scares them off.

Brian, you never fail to crack me up! I like math, but then again, with a BS in Computers and a Master's in Accounting and Finance, I better like math!

-Julie