How are these kids getting into bars? When I was 18, I couldn't get into a bar!!!

Nicole, I'm not sure where you live, but in California, if the bar serves food, and the minors are accompanied by an adult, they are allowed in the bar, before 9 pm.

I like the expresso and dog solution...and I'm guessing they mean a real life, four-legged, furry dog. That just warms my heart!

The gift of drums might be effective too.

My favorite restaurant/bar in college had a sign "children not in their seats will be boiled and eaten". Seemed to work.

My favorite has always been "Unattended children will be sold to wandering gypsies."

The problem is you didn't used to have to tell people. Now parents seem to think that everyone else should have to suffer if there kids misbehave and they can't control them.

I was in a store a few days ago and this 6-7 year old boy was having a complete histerical fit because his mom wouldn't buy him a pumpkin.

This kid was whaling and you could hear him 100 feet away. I had to get some things in the same aisle and mom didn't have a clue of what to do. This went on for a good ten minutes and the rest of us got to suffer throught this kids fit.

She should have taken him out of the store but like I said she didn't have a clue.

Those really awful kids you sometimes see melting down in public and raising hell? Those kids are often emotionally impaired or even borderline disabled in some cases. I have a few friends with kids that seem fine at first look but actually have impairments that make them lose it now and then. When the kids are tired or stressed out, it makes things even worse. They are great parents with other well-adjusted, well-mannered kids. Those kids just have issues that occasionally manifest in public.

So what you think is bad parenting may be something else at work. Back when we were a less mobile species, everyone would know which kids were a bit off, and it was easy to allow for the occasional outburst, I imagine. Now, freaking-out kids kind of make us nervous, and our reaction is to get annoyed at the parents.

That said, where the parents kind of fall down still is they sometimes refuse to acknowledge that it may not be a good idea to take the child into a place where others have a reasonable expectation to not encounter their disruptive child. A nice restaurant, for example.

The sense seems to be that everyone else must accomodate their desire to have exactly the same family experience as others, despite their kid's outbursts.

I understand their desire, but I don't endorse their view. They want to enjoy a night out with their kids just like everyone else, without having to always go to Chuck E Cheese or someplace similar, where outbursts will go unnoticed. But part of the deal of going to a nice place is people will observe the decorum of the place. If you cannot do that because of some impairment in your kid, well, sorry...

In my experience, the number of truly bratty kids who act out in public is fairly small--most kids are kind of freaked out when around strangers and simply want to stay close to parents. Making mom and dad mad is the absolute *last* thing on their agenda.

My fiance had an argument with someone on a World of Warcraft server when he suggested that WoW create a server just for adults, where people could curse and talk about adult matter.

All the kids got up in arms because they believe they're just as if not more mature than many adults, and many of the parents got their panties in a knot because they thought their children should be allowed anywhere, and they didn't want to play where their kids weren't allowed. They didn't seem to understand that in this case their would be an adult server for adults only, and a family server for everyone else. They were just horrified that there might be a place their kids weren't welcome.

If kids are truly mature, they will understand that sometimes adults want to play with other adults, and it's not personal.

I suspect people would have more patience with children if there were still adult places to go.

My mother's approach to public tantrums would be to quietly ask one of the store attendents, "Excuse me, but do you have a private place where I could spank this child?" That always got me or my brothers to dry right up. Probably get you arrested now, though.

Spartee, I disagree that most of these kids acting out in public have serious issues. I see parents just not taking any responsibility for their kids -- not caring that their kids are disturbing others or even endangering themselves. At the café I go to often, I got yelled at by a parent for going over and stopping a kid from pulling on a giant antique wooden sculpture. The thing was starting to rock back and forth, and if it tipped over on the kid, it would likely have killed or seriously injured him.

My friend Sergeant Heather has an autistic child, and she's careful to only bring him to places he can handle, and when she sometimes takes him to a school event, she tells people around her that he's autistic and there may be an outburst, and she's sorry. She finds that people welcome the opportunity to show a little generosity of spirit. Once again, though, she is careful not to bring him to, say, the library. ("The book fairy" brings him home books to read.) And when they had a birthday dinner for him, they had it in The Cheesecake Factory, and were seated in the noisiest area of a noisy restaurant so as not to disturb other diners.

A friend of mine gave me a book titled "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen (And Listen So Kids Will Talk)" which has lots of suggestions and role plays for handling things like tantrums at the store.

It works great on other people's kids, too. I've had compliments from passengers on the train, and I don't even HAVE any kids.

Gah...I wish more places would put up these signs! I worked in food service for years and one of my biggest pet peeves was unattended children. Once there was only one table in the whole place; a mother and her 5 or 6 year old girl. The mother sat and enjoyed her lunch while I had to explain to her "darling" child what I was doing, why I was rolling silverware, why she couldn't help, etc all the while begging her to stay away from the big, heavy swinging door to the kitchen. I wasn't even safe in the waitress station...this girl just walked behind the counter with me! I was FUMING mad. Just because I was sitting at a table for a few minutes, that did not mean I was on break. I was doing my prep work. I was BUSY. That time between the lunch and dinner rush is my chance to relax and prepare for the night. If I wanted a job babysitting, I would have gotten one! I finally had to tell the mother: "I have work to do in the back where I won't be able to watch your daughter. If she is in front of that door when I come out, she will get hurt." She sat her kid down after that. I didn't get a tip...but it weas worth it. (For the record, I wasn't threatening a child, just stating the obvious. That very door had knocked me on my a** just that week...and I am full grown.)

My favorite was the time 3 families came out to dinner. Once they were done eating, the parents sat around drinking while the spawns ran wild through the dining room....the FULL dining room. At one point the young toddler that somehow ended up on the floor started banging the GLASS salt and pepper shakers she had emptied onto the floor together. Of course, they broke. Luckily, I was watching and scooped her up just before she put the broken pieces in her mouth. Would you believe I got the "How dare you touch my child" look from mom and dad? Un-phased by the fact that their baby almost ate glass, they all went back to their drinking....until the 5 year old hugged a cactus. I know I shouldn't take pleasure in a child hurting...and I didn't....but I had to chuckle at Mom and Dad spitting out their margaritas when the screaming started.

All jokes aside, restaraunts are dangerous places for children. There are hot, heavy plates flying around, swinging doors, knifes, stacks of plates, etc. It's not just annoying to have a kid running around at your feet while you're trying to work. Someone could get hurt. Either your child gets a face full of sizzling fajita or I'm going to sprain an ankle trying to avoid them (thus leaving me unable to finish my shift and make my living)...all because people don't want to watch their kids. RUDE.

I love the message! A variant could be a cheap toy making a sharp, annoying sound. :D

I once at at a resturant that had a sign saying an 18% tip would automatically be added to the bill of any party larger than 15 people and any party larger than one asshole

That should read "I once ATE at a"

Kim, I feel your pain. I've been down that road too, and it ain't pretty. What's going on here is too many people have an over-inflated sense of entitlement, which they are passing on to their children. And it's got to stop, but I'm at a loss as to how, or even if, that will ever happen.

On the sign thing, my favorite by far (seen at a Ren Faire) is "Unattened children will be sold as slaves."
Then there was the one at a PetCo. store: "Unattended children will be given a lollipop and a free kitten."

Here in CT, it's illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to be in or at the bar in any restaurant. Three yards away is the minimum. Places like Bennigan's, Ruby Tuesday's, Appleby's, TGIFridays, that have bars that are seperate from the dining rooms are required by law to enforce that 3 yard minimum but you still get parents bringing their kids in there "just for a minute". Because, you know, the rules to apply to them.

Because you know, the rules don't apply...

I've seen both the espresso/dog sign and the "sold as slaves" sign around Austin and in all the little touristy areas around here.

I agree that many parents DO have an over-inflated sense of entitlement. We go to a neighborhood pub, and there is a sign on the door that states that children aren't allowed, but people bring them in anyway. Usually, it's the same people, over and over again, who've decided it's fine because they're "regulars."

There are plenty of places where you can get a burger and a beer (or a margarita and enchiladas) that ARE child-friendly; some even have playgrounds. Of course, I'd hope that parents would control their offspring in those places, as well. Personally, I've never see little kids in a white-linens type of place, but it wouldn't suprise me.

By the way, I was walking into the ladies' room at Target the other day, and a mom walked out with her 10 or 11-year-old son. Is that normal? (He didn't seem to have any disability.) Can you really not send your fourth-grader into the men's room on his own, or leave him by the door for a minute while you go?

Well, apparently in Colorado children are allowed to belly up to the bar - I've seen it more times than I can count - and the entitlement attitude around here is amazing. Parents think their kids should be welcome EVERYWHERE and woe to you if you even think of giving them "the look" about it. Seriously, since when is it appropriate to allow your child to run around in a BAR? Don't even get me started on the family birthday party for the five-year-old - IN THE BAR. My boyfriend was sure it was a party for the guy who was clearly the grandfather, and I told him "No, watch, it'll be the kid". Sure enough, it was the kid's birthday. Apparently his handlers couldn't go one afternoon without beer. Sheesh.

I couldn't make this stuff up. Honestly.

When I was in an aquarium, at a touch tank filled with horseshoe crabs and urchins and whatever else, my sister and I saw this little boy yanking on the arm of a starfish, almost like he was going to pull it off the tank.

I gently told the kid that he shouldn't do that, that it might hurt the starfish, and he was all hurt and offended - his mom gave us the stink eye and told him not to listen to us, that he was doing okay. Even as young as I was - 13, maybe? I knew that common sense was severely lacking in some parents.

@Flynne: "Because you know, the rules don't apply..."

Maybe we need new signs:

Unattended Children are Not
Permitted to Run Around
The Dining Room!

(This Means Your Precious Whelp, Too!)

Or maybe:

Unattended Children Will be Referred to
Child Protective Services

That might scare 'em a little.

Unattended Children Will be Referred to
Child Protective Services

I like this one!

My favorite personal experience about unattended children, and I so wanted to slap the snot out of the mom.

I worked for an attorney who also owned an Irish pub. The law office was on the second floor of the building and the bar, was downstairs (by the way, this was a great arrangement!). Quite often I would find children running around the landing in front of my office - their parents were downstairs in the bar finishing their meals and/or drinks in peace. I usually escorted them downstairs to the restaurant and asked their parents to keep them off the landing as we were too busy upstairs to mind their children.

One afternoon, I found 2 little boys, ages 5 and 7, in MY bathroom in the law office, playing in the sink. I asked them if their parents were in the restaurant, both of them looked at my like I had 2 heads. I asked them to come downstairs with me and they did reluctantly. Obviously they had been taught to never speak to strangers. As we reached the bottom of the stairs this woman started screaming at me as she raced across the parking lot. Evidently, she had been in the stationary store and the boys didn't want to go inside so she let them roam around a very busy parking lot and in and out of businesses harassing people who were working all because she couldn't bother to be a parent. Needless to say, she didn't like the fact that I reined in her precious little darlings. B*TCH! I told her to keep a leash on her children in the future.

"Those really awful kids you sometimes see melting down in public and raising hell? Those kids are often emotionally impaired or even borderline disabled in some cases. I have a few friends with kids that seem fine at first look but actually have impairments that make them lose it now and then. When the kids are tired or stressed out, it makes things even worse. They are great parents with other well-adjusted, well-mannered kids. Those kids just have issues that occasionally manifest in public."

I don't buy the 'impaired' excuse. Kids simply didn't act like that in public 40 years ago and I don't believe that these impairments suddenly sprang into existence in 1995.

If your kid can't behave, keep him at home and teach the little brat some manners.

It's funny- ironic funny, not ha-ha funny- that parents get offended, versus embarrassed, when a stranger has to correct their children's behavior.

Kids did not act like that in public 50 years ago either.

We'd have suffered the dreaded corporal punishment and been scarred for life, for certain, but:

1, It would never happen again.
2. No lawyers would have been involved.
3. No parent would have thought anything of it.

Where do you think the loudmouth idiots on cell phones came from?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1145633

So, what do you think of this? I see that she has been sold "speech therapy, occupational therapy, and developmental therapy" for the past six months now. I suspect that her kid's "disorder" is pure horseshit, manufactured by the same people who are selling her the above-listed therapy.

Commenter #16 is on the right track, I think.

I was returning my cable box (awkward and heavy to hold) this weekend and standing in the longest line imaginable. I try not to be cranky, but I am human.

To top off this lovely experience was the fact that some suburban parents with their matching fleeces and hot lattes brought their two children in with them (and by the looks of it, loaded them up with sugar).

They had grabbed some of the large bags used for customers to carry equipment out of the store and started playing potato sack races across the slippery floor - bumping into the rest of us, falling down...etc. I wanted to say something, but people like this - these clueless parents that look adoringly at their children while they are engaging in inappropriate behavior in public - get really defensive and unmanageable.

FINALLY, some lady that worked at the cable store turned around and told the kids to stop what they were doing or they'd get hurt. The kids dumbfounded asked "But Whyyyyyyyy". The lady raised her voice and said "Because I said so!" and gave the mother a dirty look. Yipppeeee.

The mom went and shuffled her kids out the door, the dad was completely clueless and as they were leaving one of the kids went and hid under a table. "Now Johnny....." UGH.

And these kids are going to be the ones running the country when I am old and gray.

It's everywhere now. Personally, I favor the direct approach. If kids are not allowed in the pub, you tell them they're not allowed in the pub, and if someone tries to bring a kid in, you tell them to leave.

At the YMCA, there are signs outside the locker room that clearly state that children aren't allowed in the locker room, but the daddies bring them in anyway. The Y has lockerrooms for little boys and little girls, plus a day care facility to drop the kids off, but some people just don't think the rules apply to them.

I can imagine how this must go.

HSH (Harried Suburban Housewife) takes kid to three different doctors, all of whom tell her, 'No, HSH, your kid doesn't have (fill-in-the-blank disorder) - he's just a typical 2-year-old brat. Kids have existed in their more-or-less modern form for nearly 90,000 years, and 2-year-olds have all been pretty much the same during that entire time. Keep the little beast home until you civilize him.'

These doctors don't stand to make much money.

So HSH takes her kid to a SPECIALIST, who finally gives her a DIAGNOSIS. And how do you know that this specialist knows what he is talking about, more than the other doctors? Probably because he charges three times as much per hour and writes a prescription.

This isn't really much different than those people who overuse the healthcare system in other ways - those whose homes are always overflowing with presecription drugs for every sniffle, backache, and cold they have ever come into contact with.

Your kid's not a brat and you're not a bad parent! He just has a disorder! And I can make him act like a slightly more civilized chimp if you pay me $200 an hour.

I do admit that human diets in western countries have undergone significant recent changes (meaning, in the last 30 years, and largely due to agricultural subsidies - watch the movie "King Korn").

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/kingcorn/

However, if you are such a crappy parent that, even with all the choices available to you at your local grocery store, you still choose to fill your kid up with high fructuse corn syrup and starchy junk, I'm willing to concede that your kid might have an actual health problem. Not as big as his parent problem, but a big problem nonetheless.

Yes old rpm....back in the day. Years ago, when a friend of mine's brother started acting out in a theater mom took care of the problem in the lobby. While she was workin' that ass a lady told her "you shouldn't hit that child". Pausing, mom told the woman "you want.....some of this?". The good old days.

@Pirate Jo: "Commenter #16 is on the right track, I think."

You're right, PJ. Commenter 16 on that site has a good point. It kind of sounded to me like the poor mother had some kind of checklist of defects that applied to her little boy. Worse, it took 16 comments for someone to raise the BS flag.

There were certain places where we simply could not take our middle daughter when she was two and a half, what with her propensity to pick up whatever was in front of her and fling it in a random direction.

Patrick, the mothers at the YMCA do the same thing. With their 10, 11, 12 year old SONS! However, I've found the management to be very cooperative in maintaining order, even in the face of some extremely huffy ladies.

Pirate Jo- as to your link from mothering.com; once LW's child gets into public school, I predict it will get worse. He'll be compartmentalized, and diagnosed beyond the reality. There's extra guv'ment cash for "special needs" kids. Ask any pediatric neurologist what's behind the autism "epidemic". Why is autism a spectrum disorder? So that more kids can get lumped in. The city school district near where I live has gotten into trouble for offering to split the money with parents if they agree allow a doctor to diagnose their child as autistic, even when the child shows no symptoms. My own school district lost $18,000 a year in federal funding when I took my daughter out of their program for children with developmental delays (she has cerebral palsy and epilepsy) to put her in private school. They did not let her go without a fight, even slandered and libeled her enough to be actionable.

Never relax your child's discipline because of a diagnosis. It just borrows more trouble than you already have, and spreads it around for everyone else to suffer from.

Pirate Jo, SO true. The really sad thing is that no seems to be accountable for anything in this country anymore. If you can't blame little Billy's behavior on video games, rock music or other children they MUST have some sort of disorder...which they "cure" with addictive drugs. It is never the child or the parent's fault anymore. I think it's truly f*cking disgusting that so many breeders would rather drug their children into submission than be caring, loving attentive parents. These people do just as much, if not more damage than physical abuse, in my opinion. It's not just getting the kid hooked on speed....it's the life-long belief that nothing is ever their fault because of their "condition".

"Patrick, the mothers at the YMCA do the same thing. With their 10, 11, 12 year old SONS! However, I've found the management to be very cooperative in maintaining order, even in the face of some extremely huffy ladies."

NO way. Really? My first response would be to tell you to just start walking around naked. Mothers will stop bringing their pre-teens in the women's locker room when they walk out with boners. But in the absurd world we live in these days, that might land you on the sex offender registry!!

I HATE it when women bring their boys to the ladies room. I mean if the kid is, say, 5, then ok. 7, okay, that's kinda pushing it, but it's ok.

But sometimes I go out of a stall and there's this teenage guy there with his mom! I'm sorry, if the kid is post-puberty and taller than most of the ladies he does NOT belong in the ladies room.

Next time I've seen one, I've decided to start screaming hysterically.

Nicole...DO IT!! I will if you will! Luckily, I have never seen a kid that old in the ladies room...I'm a pretty passive person, but I would say something about that...both to the mother and to the management.

Old School moms in France are still fond of a quick slap across the face as discipline, even for toddlers. It is extremely effective, and most of these children do just fine in restaurants and shops.

I was shocked when I first encountered it, but empirically, it works. Lots of things I don't like about France, but traditional child rearing is not one of them.

@Kim: "Mothers will stop bringing their pre-teens in the women's locker room when they walk out with boners."

Thanks, Kim. Now everyone's going to wonder why I'm wandering around the office snickering all afternoon!

"My first response would be to tell you to just start walking around naked."

We do. That's my point! It's a dressing room. Showers. Lockers. The "children" love it and their mothers don't give a shit.

Robin, next time look at the "Kid", scream and call out: "LADIES!! WE HAVE A PEEPING TOM!! YOU GUYS COVER UP WHILE I GO GET SECURITY TO REMOVE THE PERVERT!" Sure, the poor kid will be humiliated, but at least he'll be too ashamed to come back...even if his mother is completely dense and sees nothing wrong with him being in there.

Ya know, the media's got to share some of the blame for this too, what with all the stories about kids being abducted, which is one reason why moms take their "baby boys" into the ladies' rooms with them; special interest stories about kids with illnesses, and how well they're doing, and you know other parents are all "well, if that child can do this, so can mine" ; and those reality shows that are anything but - anyone with half a brain can tell they're scripted. Remember Balloon Boy? It's just spiraled out of control, all the madness. When my kids were toddlers, I could read their moods, and if one or the other or even both ever ever started acting up in any store or restaurant, we were outta there, no questions asked. And they knew it too. I was complemented on the younger one in a restaurant once, when she was not quite 3, about how well behaved she was. She knew if she wasn't, we wouldn't even be there.

I see your point, Flynne...but I still don't think there's any excuse. Exactly how many of those stories revolve around children being abducted while in the bathroom or while a parent is in the bathroom. There aren't nearly as many child abductions as you would think. I can't remember where I saw thew stats, but I was shocked.

If you're a woman and scared to let your son go into the men's room by himself, you can stand outside the door and call loudly "I'll be right outside!" as he walks in. No one is going to take your kid knowing you are standing right there. Another option I've heard is to have your child sing a song while he's in there and let him know that if he stops, you're coming in. If it's about YOU going into the bathroom and leaving him alone....well...either have him stand outside the ladies room and sing or don't go out alone with him. It seems simple to me. Tell your child not to talk to any strangers while you are gone (except the server or another employee) and if a stranger talks to them, scream.

I agree that the media has most people in an over protective frenzy....but people have the option to use their own common sense when it comes to parenting. If they raise their child based on what the media tells them to do...they have much bigger problems than bringing their kid into the bathroom.

I can't believe how pissed off this issue is making me. The more I think about it, the more angry I get. Don't I have the right to walk into a LADIES room and expect to only see LADIES? What? MY privacy is no longer important now that YOU had a son?

Liz wrote: "Old School moms in France are still fond of a quick slap across the face as discipline, even for toddlers. It is extremely effective, and most of these children do just fine in restaurants and shops."

I couldn't agree more. Not for first infractions, but when small kids refuse to listen. Pain is nature's teaching tool, why shouldn't parents use it too? When I said this a few weeks ago, even on this board I got jumped on.

I think it's funny that "the child has a disorder"
is mentioned so many times.

Children haven't changed in the last 50, 100 even a 1000 years. Parenting has changed.

In the last 40 years psychology, academia and the government have had detrimental influences on parenting.

We don't have child disorders we have parenting disorders. Parenting is the only thing that has changed.

John Rosemond a well known parenting author, and my favorite, said he loves to go to the Bahamas and be around the native kids and families.

The children don't have tantrums and fits like American kids. Guess what hasn't changed in the last 50 years in the Bahamas? Parenting.

Ah Ms Alkon, you always seem to find my hot issue buttons :-)

I am a 26 yr old "A.D.H.D." diagnosed servicemember. And even I don't believe in autism, A.D.D., or any of the other myriad maladies we Americans conjure up to relieve the awful pressure of raising a child.

(why didn't someone ever WARN me that fucking and having fun without precaution could lead to having a kid???!)

It is, and has always been, bullshit of the purest ray serene. JoJo hit it on the head. This crap didn't exist when our parents were kids.

Your child hyper? It's not ADHD. It's hyperness. It's called being a kid. Want to rectify it? Teach the child to reign it in. Trust me, it works. Wait till they grow. I wish I had half the energy I used to.

Your kid not pay attention in class? It's not a disability. The child doesn't want to pay attention. That's also pretty typical.
Rectify? Take away the fun things the kid DOES like. Show them how boring life can GET. My oh my, how that works.

(when I got too old for the belt, my parents took the nintendo controllers. Equally painful.)

Your kid out of control in public? Throw that medicine bottle away! My parents needed only remind us of the One True Law of being in public... "We WILL eventually go home again...". Good behavior followed.

My parents (God bless them) never withheld the rod, NOR the respect, when earned, of acting like an adult. My parents never talked down to me, never treated me like an addle brained child, unless I acted like one. They knew that being spanked for stealing a batman toy from a store was a pale substitute for going to prison for stealing a car... That's something more parents need to learn, and learn fast. Cause the kids won't figure it out on their own if nothing is ever painful. Or their fault.

> The thing was starting to rock back and forth,
> and if it tipped over on the kid, it would likely
> have killed or seriously injured him.

Darwinism at its finest. Why intervene?

I am totally going to do it. I'm going to scream "Man in the ladies room! Call security!"

Chrono, I didn't get spanked for stealing my pack of gum... I was given fifty cents (or whatever it was) and made to go pay for it, and then throw it out. Of course I was red-faced and crying, so obviously the clerk knew what was going on. And I knew the clerk knew. Most humiliating moment ever.

Needless to say, I did not become one of those teenagers with a shoplifting habit.

I'm still embarassed thinking about it. I wanted to curl up and die!

Chrono, I didn't get spanked for stealing my pack of gum... I was given fifty cents (or whatever it was) and made to go pay for it, and then throw it out. Of course I was red-faced and crying, so obviously the clerk knew what was going on. And I knew the clerk knew. Most humiliating moment ever.

Needless to say, I did not become one of those teenagers with a shoplifting habit.

I'm still embarassed thinking about it. I wanted to curl up and die!

Posted by: NicoleK at November 3, 2009 1:34 PM
_____________________________________

You had good parents.

I don't know about yelling for security in the ladies' room....some poor kid with a domineering hover-mother is likely to end up as a registered sex offender. Wouldn't it be much easier to say something to the mother?

"I am totally going to do it. I'm going to scream "Man in the ladies room! Call security!"

Just know that not all mental disabilities are as obvious as Downs, and if you do that for a disabled child, you are rightly going to feel like an idiotic insensitive bitch. Much like the woman tsk-tsking about a tween who was screaming at an amusement park this weekend where we were. Idiot couldn't stop running her mouth long enough to see he was nonverbal, and screaming was all he COULD do.

But I'm all for kids not being taken where they don't belong.

A sign I'd like to see: "Parents of noisy kids will be given free condoms."

As for screaming if you see a boy in the ladies room, it is statements like that which make it hard to take gender equality seriously.

If women are so emotionally and psychologically fragile as to be traumatized by the mere presence of a minor in those circumstances, then it is hard to believe that women are capable of competing with men in other cut-throat fields.

What next? Fainting every time someone tells a crude joke or makes a sexual innuendo? That will really break those glass ceilings!

It is not that uncommon for women to use the men's toilets, particularly when the women's are all being used. Surprisingly, I have managed to survive such things without the need for trauma counselling or screaming for security!

Kim, why embarrass the kid by calling him a pervert when the mother's at fault?

Kate writes: When I was in an aquarium...

What are you? The woman from Atlantis?

Reminds me of a Pearls Before Swine strip.

As Rat and Pig are viewing an aquarium, Pig is singing full voice, "When the moon hits your eye, like a big pizza pie..."

Rat tells him to pipe down, so he can enjoy the aquarium in peace. Pig apologizes and notices an eel popping into view and asks, "What's that?"

Rat says, "That's a moray."

The last panel shows Rat confronting Pastis, the cartoonist of Pearls Before Swine and telling him, "Retire early."

Apples and oranges, there, Nick S. Adult women using the men's toilets, where? at a bar or a concert venue is one thing, but adolescent boys in the women's locker room at the Y or a ladies room in a restaurant is totally inappropriate, because those boys aren't there out of necessity, but because their mothers are ignorant or lazy and/or expect to be given a pass. Any boy child under the age of ~6, okay. Older than that is a big NO. Any mother who thinks that her boy child older than 6 should be allowed in a ladies' locker room at all, for any reason, needs a reality check, big time.

Again, these aren't 7 year olds. These are WAY BEYOND "over 6"

You're right, if they are mentally retarded or transgender or something I'll feel like an asshole. But I'm betting most aren't.

Flynne, I wasn't referring to boys being in the female change rooms. I agree, that is a whole different kettle of fish and entirely unacceptable. And I don't know why any mother would feel the need to take her 11 or 12 yo son in there.

I was referring to mothers who take their sons into the female toilets. I can't see what the big deal is. Everyone is concealed behind a door anyway.

But whether or not you agree that such things are appropriate or not, it is still amusing to hear people say 'if this happens I will scream for help' in the supposed current age of gender equality and strong women. Seriously, I can understand such a response if we are talking about being menaced by an unknown man at night. But junior using the wrong bathroom? Help! Save me! Pulllllease!

Offtopic: Be amused.

'Any mother who thinks that her boy child older than 6 should be allowed in a ladies' locker room at all, for any reason, needs a reality check, big time.'

Right, but I for one don't think it ought to entail calling security or humiliating the boy in question.

Patrick, a twist on that was also done in B.C. 'When an eel lunges out and bites off your snout, that's a mora-a-a-y':-D

The locker room discussion is an interesting one. Imagine a father bringing his adolescent daughter into the locker room with him. He would probably land in court for child abuse!

How to deal with it - that's hard. The poor kid is probably already dying of embarrassment. It would be nice to find a way to help him while teaching the mother a lesson.

Probably the best approach, really, is to tell management what is happening and get them to talk to the mother privately.

Parents of unattended children will be given a complimentary vasectomy and/or tubal ligation.

I was referring to mothers who take their sons into the female toilets. I can't see what the big deal is. Everyone is concealed behind a door anyway.

I get that, Nick S, and agree, kind of, but still, the age factor comes into play. A 6 yo in a ladies room, yeah, okay. A 12 yo? NO way. Why isn't he in the men's room? He's old enough to do his own thing, and doesn't, or shouldn't, NEED to be with mommy at that point, dontcha think?

Nick, I was referring to screaming in the women' locker room, not a rest room. Ad it was said mostly tongue in cheek...but since you obviously didn't get that...I'll bite:

It isn't the "trauma" of seeing a boy in the ladies room. It's the principle of it. I am a woman. I prefer to not have men around when I go to the bathroom or change. It's inappropriate for a boy who is starting to notice girls to be around naked women. Not only does it make the woman uncomfortable, it must make the child uncomfortable. It's just plain inconsiderate of the mother to do this.

Whether YOU think it's silly or not, there is a picture of a lady on one door and a man on the other for a reason. It makes some people uncomfortable to go to the bathroom/change/shower in the presence of the opposite sex. It isn't your place (or an over-protective mother's) to change the rules just because YOU don't agree. What are you teaching your kid if you just walk him into the women's room like it's no big deal? What if he goes to school and does that? In this day and age that's a one way ticket to being a registered sex offender.

Small children are one thing, but there is an age limit. Would screaming in a changing room humiliate a kid? Yep. Would I feel bad about it? Sure. Would I reel like a bitch if said child was disabled? You betcha, but I feel like a sicko walking around naked in front of kids...so it's really six of one half dozen of the other. Why don't I just talk to the mother? Well, because I have little faith in her ability to reason and consider others if sahe already walked into a woman's changing room with a boy.

Oh, and women going into men's rooms? Really? Where, at a bar? I'm not saying it's right, but it's different when kids aere involved. Plus, men and women just look at these things differently. I know, how dare I seek equality while admitting that we are different? *insert dramatic eye roll* Most of the men I know would just laugh if they saw me walk into the mens room at a bar because the ladies line was too long. Women and men are different...and not just because they have pee pees and we have wee wees. They just tend to look at certain things differently. It has nothing to do with being weak or not being equal. Wanting privacy while you're in the restroom isn't a weakness, it's normal.

The thing is, there are little girls in the womens' room, too. Obviously if some kid sees me pee I'll be annoyed but get over it.

But do you really want 13-year-old boys hanging around where, say, your 11-year-old daughter is changing or peeing?

Even in a restroom, when you're ina booth, you can totally see through the cracks on either side of the door, there's almost an inch gap.

Little girls often go into the ladies room by themselves. They shouldnt have to worry about having older boys there.

If making a scene is what it takes, I'll do it.

"Rat says, 'That's a moray.'"

Thanks a bunch for that, Patrick... now my co-workers are all looking at me funny.

Wanting privacy while you're in the restroom isn't a weakness, it's normal.

Exactly, Kim. Exactly.

Children who are unattended and annoying who come by my table in restaurants learn words like cunt and motherfucker. I try and say them repeatedly and just loud enough for the parents to overhear what I'm saying next to little Johnny. Would you be surprised to learn they come and get their kids tout suite?

Children who are unattended and annoying who come by my table in restaurants learn words like cunt and motherfucker. .

I've done this in the past with mixed success. A reasonable amount of time the parents complain to the manager of the restaurant that I am using foul language around the yard apes. The last thing I want to do is engage in a heated debate with stupid breeders while my food gets cold.

I have written the following note on paper napkins (asking the child to give that to their mommy) with pretty universal success,

"If I were a bad person I could have easily stolen your child."

It kinda feeds the hysteria, but works rather well.

-Julie

I once heard of a guy who carried around post-its with the message "If I were a child molester I would have your kid now" and stuck them on the back of kids who were clearly unsupervised. I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm tempted.

"This crap didn't exist when our parents were kids."

Ludicrous. Of course ADD/ADHD existed, but when our parents were kids there was no recognition and no treatment. Those kids were just labeled as lazy or poor students and got flunked out of the public education machine.

i remember once when i was a kid at a restaurant i was describing to my parents a garfield episode where garfield pounds on the table with his silverware and yells, 'service, service!'. of course i did this with demonstration, and the waitress dutifully came over and asked what i wanted - you know, polite, with that smile that indicates clearly that she wants to smack you? i don't think i've ever been so embarrassed in my life. my parents made me apologize, of course, and explain exactly what i was doing, which sounded really stupid, of course, and then i didn't get dessert.....this was one of the rare instances that i misbehaved and was punished not by way of a spanking, but it still worked.... not quite as effective as my mother's guilt trips - she would come in my room, sit in the corner, and start crying, asking why did i do what i'd done, what about her as a parent let me think it was appropriate, what could she do differently.....i think you all should try that one, let me tell you, whatever she was guilting me about - i NEVER did it again....