Commenters will soon tell you you're wrong about this, but you're not.

There are two sides to this argument. From the brief information given, one cannot be sure which side is right.

I once rented a room from a family with small children. They also had a downstairs neighbor who complained. I saw the children playing and know what small amount of noise they created. The family went to ridiculous extremes: basically, the children were only allowed to play on theirs beds, never on the floor. The downstairs neighbor was till upset - she must have used a stethoscope, in order to remain annoyed.

The alternate answer here is: if this woman cannot tolerate the sound of children, she should live in an adults-only complex.

I suppose it's out of the question to train one's daughter to behave like a civilized human being and not to run down the hallway when she's at home and reserve the pent up energy for areas suited to that purpose.

I would want to hear the amount of noise before I would decide which way to jump on this one.

That being said -- the only way to legally not to rent to people with children is declare your facility a senior's facility. I think the bottom limit is 60. Or a religious facility.

If I wanted to create an apartment complex to cater to only 40 plus, or a "no kids" apartment complex it is illegal.

Remember, we need to house all your little progeny.

> The alternate answer here is: if this
> woman cannot tolerate the sound of
> children, she should live in an
> adults-only complex.

It's my understanding that for about the last twenty years, such places are against the law.

Jim P and Crid, you beat me to it. Whenever the idea gets trotted out into the sunlight, "parents" all over the place complain that it is discriminatory against children.

I mean, don't think we haven't thought about it...

I'll tell you you're wrong on this. A 2 year old running (on carpet) makes no more noise than an adult walking on it. If you live below people (or next to people, or above people) you WILL hear them. Period. Don't like it, buy a house. But wait, even in my house I hear dogs bark, kids playing, cars driving......so either become the unibomber or deal with a little noise. They have no obligation-legally or morally-to sedate their kid or carpet the entire place. I really doubt the little one is running between 10pm and 6am. What other quiet hours does she feel they need to provide in their own home?

I've never heard of a parent-and I know a LOT-that has or would complain about adults-only living. You can blame the fed for that, since not only can you not specify no children, you can't specify at ALL who you rent to. A gay rooming house had to shut down here recently, because of that. Seriously-who on earth cares if gay men want to live together???

"I suppose it's out of the question to train one's daughter to behave like a civilized human being and not to run down the hallway when she's at home and reserve the pent up energy for areas suited to that purpose"

I run in my house. Am I uncivilized? And prekids, had noisy sex. Is that off-limits too, or is it just noise associated with kids? What if they had a treadmill the adults exercised on. I know from experience this makes noise the downstairs neighbors can hear. And they not allowed to exercise in their own home? Walk wearing shoes? Really, where do you draw the line. Patrick?

Hmm. I was right with Amy until the last paragraph of the article. It's hard to tell what's going on here. The parents did have the place carpeted and the neighbor is still complaining?

There's a whiff of those people who buy the house next to the airport and then make a big stink over the noise. Just how much silence should one expect in the downstairs apartment?

My mom rightfully didn't allow running in the house, and neither do I, but I question how much noise a 2-year-old can make running down a carpeted hallway. My own wouldn't have made much; she was too small. It sounds (haha) like the neighbor is eking up her noise restrictions to match whatever noise she hears.

Momof4: I'll tell you you're wrong on this. A 2 year old running (on carpet) makes no more noise than an adult walking on it.

Bullshit. Adults have perfected the art of heel to the ground first when they walk. A two-year-old running has his foot fall as a solid unit. They run like they're on the verge of falling...which they generally are.

Why do you run inside your own house? Is the place burning down?

Any noise that disturbs your neighbors is off-limits, including noisy sex.

Not hard.

Momof4: I really doubt the little one is running between 10pm and 6am. What other quiet hours does she feel they need to provide in their own home?

You think it's okay for the child to make noise at 6:01 AM?

" Any noise that disturbs your neighbors is off-limits, including noisy sex."

Nope. Any noise that disturbs your neighbors between 10pm and 6am is off-limits. That's what the police enforce and what polite society expects. Otherwise no one could ever mow their yard. I run for any number of reasons-playing chase with the toddler, getting to the phone, getting to a hurt kid, or the fun of it. I have a rather large house, specifically so we can move around.

Having a 2-story house, and a 2 year old, I know EXACTLY how much noise a 2 year old makes running down a carpeted hallway. It's not much. I also know what it sounds like when DH is walking down that same hallway to check on them at night before going to bed himself. It's not much. And she doesn't have a big stairwell opening allowing the sound to travel as well as it does here. Downstairs woman here is a hysterical shrew. Especially since most condos have identical floorplans, so what's she doing, standing in her hallway waiting to be disturbed?

I learned in college apartments that white noise machines (air purifiers, etc) can solve 99% of noise issues with neighbors. She should get one.

A gay rooming house had to shut down here recently, because of that.

I cannot help but feel a little schadenfreude. Weren't gay activists one of the groups agitating for non-discrimination based on sexual orientation? Be careful what you wish for.

mpetrie writes: I cannot help but feel a little schadenfreude. Weren't gay activists one of the groups agitating for non-discrimination based on sexual orientation? Be careful what you wish for.

Let me guess. You scream bloody murder over the issue of gay rights and are vehemently opposed to gay marriage. But when this oppressed segment of society wants to form their own commune, sort of as their own little cleft in the hard granite of society where they can just be themselves among their own kind, you squeal with elation over their supposed double standard. Right?

People who are discriminated against on a regular basis and are on the receiving end of considerable bigotry do like to have their own safe harbors, places where they have the reasonable expectation of not being condemned for being what they are.

But I guess you wouldn't understand that, huh? Because lucky you is white and straight.

Momof4, polite society expects people not to disturb their neighbors, ever. I personally manage to abide by that rule just fine. I don't play loud music without headphones, don't have loud parties, etc.

Not hard.

Here in CT there is a plethora of over-55 communities that are advertised weekly in the Sunday paper. An excerpt: "RiverBend Estates. 55+ Active Adult Community. OPen Mon - Fri 9 -3, Sat & Sun by Appointment.

-Single Family Detached Homes
-Open Floor Plans
-Main Level w/Master Suite
Brokers protected
www.RiverBendEstatesOxford.com

Then there's Maple Oak Reserve: "A Fabulous Lifestye for the Active Adult"

Now, I'm guessing you can have your grandkids visit you, but keeping them long-term is probably not allowed, unless there are extenuating circumstances or something. Not living in one of these "fabulous" places, I wouldn't know.

I agree with Momof4. I think the woman who is complaining about a 2 year old running around is just being a shrew. One 2 year old doesn't make a helluvalotta noise, even when running, unless the kid is severely overweight. More than one, however, is a different story.

Its a matter of consideration. While these parents think their precious daughter makes little noise, try living beneath those running feet all day. And yes, a 2 year old child does run, but then put down thick padding and thick carpet. I always tried to avoid being the upstairs tenant because I had three young children. If my children wanted to run, I sent them in the yard to play. Indoor and outdoor rules apply especially when it affects other people. My kids are not allowed to rough house, throw balls, or basically do anything inside that should take place outside. They're not little soldiers, but I've always had neighbors compliment them on their manners and considerationl.

"Momof4, polite society expects people not to disturb their neighbors, ever. I personally manage to abide by that rule just fine. I don't play loud music without headphones, don't have loud parties, etc."

Really? You've never mowed your yard, weed-eated, used a saw to cut a branch off a tree, lit fireworks on the 4th, nothing? Ever? Nope, not you. Not even so much as a loud fart. I bow in the face of your superior silence.

We have over-50 communities here in TX. I'm betting la shrew isn't far off from 50. Maybe we could send her some informational brochures?

It isn't shrewish, when you live in an apartment building, to expect people to have apartment-level consideration. If you want to jog on your floors, live on the first floor or live in a house not attached to other people's houses.

I live in a house next to other people's apartments, and because of that, I am very, very careful that my dog does not bark outside. She's trained for "no noise!" If she barks once (say a dog comes by the gate and barks at her), I run out and bring her in. My thinking? Your sleep, your reading, your thinking, your pleasant enjoyment of your apartment should not be disturbed because I have a pet.

I lived in New York City, mostly, luckily, around considerate neighbors. Inconsiderate neighbors are hell. Patrick and Crid are right. The pounding of a 2-year-old's stamping feet on your ceiling all the time? That's hell. Apartments are not parks or jogging tracks. If you choose to live in one, in very close proximity to other people, you'd better be prepared to live differently from how you'd live in a detached house in the country.

"You can blame the fed for that, since not only can you not specify no children, you can't specify at ALL who you rent to."

This is true. Apparently, by law, I can't even specify that a tiny studio apt is ideal for only one occupant. The newspaper told me I couldn't specify the number of tenants, as that was "discriminatory". I've never actually looked that law up, but I know for sure I can't specify a preference for male or female tenants, much less sexual orientation.

I agree that these parents should've installed the carpets, but the fact that the neighbor is still complaining indicates to me that she is being overly sensitive.

Amy, I get all that. My kids never run in the house, because they were taught NOT to. When they were little, and started to run in the house, I would always correct them and tell them to "walk in the house, please, running is for outside". But not all parents want to "curb" their children's behavior, for whatever reason. The reason I think that woman is being shrewish, however, is because 2 year olds sometimes do run, and if they're told NOT to, they won't at that moment. Until the next time they get all excited about something. IF the parents are teaching the child not to run inside, and the woman is still complaining, I think she's being overly-offended and needs to try to understand what it's like having a 2 year old. If she can't even tolerate a little child running once in a while, I dunno what to tell her. Move, maybe? Invest in a white noise machine? If the parents are being deliberately inconsiderate, then, yeah, they're being assholes and the woman has a right to complain. But even 2 year olds get tired and have to sleep. I'm sure the kid isn't running around 24/7.

There's not nearly enough information in the letter to determine who was in the right or wrong here. It could be special snowflake parents living over a reasonable human being. Or it could be good parents living over a hypersensitive neighbor. (Or specials snowflakes living above a hypersensitive neighbor). I've lived under quiet kids and noisy kids (I'm blessed with the ability to fall asleep no matter what so even the noisy ones weren't that bad). I've lived over good neighbors and insane ones who would call the super over me pushing a dining room chair back.

But aside from that, if the lease calls for floors to be carpeted then you ought to abide by the conditions of the lease.

Maybe I've forgotten the developmental stage of a 2 yr old (I think momof4 probably knows best), but I find it a little hard to believe that the child is running so much. A 2 yr old is a toddler, barely walking that well. They fall down quite a bit, so maybe that's the noise, but unless they're going to prohibit the child from moving at all, this can't be helped. Plus, a 2 yr old just doesn't weigh that much. She has very sensitive ears if she can hear that through carpeting.

Hoo boy!

This all reminds me of one of the many reasons my wife and I prefer to live next to a soybean field at the end of a dead-end road, with my nearest neighbor on the other side of a hill.

But even here we can't avoid offense completely. When we sold a few acres of timber, the nearest neighbor (who moved here after we did) complained to us about the logging trucks passing her house on the public road. When I shot a rabbit in our garden, she sent her then-husband around the hill to find out what all the noise was about. She complains when our tenant puts manure on the fields, even though he stays the state-mandated distance from her house.

Pretty much what happens whenever human beings live close enough to one another for interactions to occur, I guess. We're bound to interfere.

It is fair to ask for the floor the be carpeted. It is fair to have the child wear soft-soled shoes.

Children should walk in the house. That said, children have different energy levels. If it is cold, playing outside may not be an option.

I saw a television interview with an Olympic gymnast's mom. The gymnast was the youngest of four children. Her mother could not get her to stop jumping on the bed. The mom recognized that she needed an outlet and soon had the child on a heavy training schedule. Hopefully, the gymnast didn't grow up in an upstairs apartment.

We ALL have to be considerate of each other, including the lady downstairs.

Every toddler I know seems to be in a a perpetual state of "run." It comes with having a top-heavy body. They're not very good at being graceful, and it seems unfair to bitch at the parents for a developmental phase that will probably even out in a year or so.

Apartment living is a delicate dance. Everyone is expected to maintain a reasonable level of noise, and everyone is expected to be able to deal with a reasonable level of noise. When my father visits, he is loud. He's deaf and has dementia, so there's no "quiet" switch, and there's no way to train him to be quiet, because he doesn't understand what's wrong. For my part, I bring my dad over after 10 am and bring him home before 9 pm. I really hope my neighbors are OK with it, but if they're not, I'm not going to gag Dad when he comes over.

What if it were a colicky baby?

There is also a point of reasonableness. I was working a midnight to eight shift while living in an apartment. I didn't complain when the neighbors were semi-loud during the day.

There is a case going on now where the grandparents took over care for the granddaughter after her mom became a crack addict. The retirement community HOA is trying to force the child into foster care because the grandparents can't sell the home and move. They are willing to move, but can't afford a mortgage and rent at the same time.

Random thought: As far as creating or allowing adult only complexes, do you think it would affect the casual pedophile predator stats?

As our lady of advice so often points out:

People are ANNOYING.

Living with your neighbors, sooner or later they ARE going to annoy you, everybody has inconsiderate moments.

Most of the time we let those moments slide because they're isolated incidents, no need to make a fuss over a moment. Mountains out of molehills if you will.

Showing consideration for your neighbors goes both ways, sure watching the noise level during the evening is fine.

But expecting children never to play noisily indoors during the day is just not reasonable. There is carpet laid down to muffle it, and a two year old just can't make THAT much noise toddling at full speed on carpet from place to place.

Frankly the downstairs neighbor here is the one going to far. She's listening for something to complain about, unless the construction of the place is echo quality & paper thin, its just not likely to be that bad.

Before I deployed I lived in a downstairs place with a couple above me, and even when they were rearranging furniture it wasn't more than a light thumping.

I can understand keeping children on a short leash out in public, but I draw the line in the confines of my own housing. Some people just complain, a lot, over anything.

Amy and Crid would be right, if the source of the noise were larger and heavier than a Mini Schnauzer. Jesus Christ, this woman can't tolerate the sound of a 2-year-old's footsteps, on carpet? What a sad life she must lead.

"What if it were a colicky baby?"

That's what seems odd to me. Why wasn't she complaining about crying and/or screaming? The typical 2 yr old will do much more of that than running. If she can hear running across carpet, she must be able to hear crying/screaming.

It seems to me that this is a neighbor who is one of those anal, hyper-vigilent about condo/apt rules, people - and she didn't like that they were skirting the rug rule. She has no life and is listening for something to complain about.

The construction of the builing is going to determine a lot. In college, I got place in a new dorm (second year it was open I believe) and it was great. You couldn't hear other people screaming. My friend was in one of the ancient dorms and he could (and did) have conversations though the wall with his neighbor.

Given that contract has rule about a certain percentage must be carpetted it sounds like landlord is aware that the noise easily travels through the floor.

Without further information, it seems likely to me that both parties are likely being reasonable.

I live in condos that are "child-free" according to the rules, but as a board member I know we have been told by many sources (including our lawyer) that the provision is not legaly enforceable. The only way to limit on age is to become part of the special 55+ (or whatever it is) program.

So are the parents OK with the thumping sounds of elephants in their own home? I had several 2 yr olds in a house with hardwood, but any composite floor it's the same. So? you don't allow them to run in the house. The apartment I live in now, it's the same. The kids are older, but I simply remind them that the lady downstairs prolly doesn't like the thumping around any more than they would. There's the key, teaching a child how it would feel to have something happen to them, and then apply that to others.

You start this sort of thing young, because repetition is what makes it second nature. "Why are all the lights on in my house/are you trying to heat the great outdoors too/water costs money, why are you wasting it.

Remember that stuff from your parents? They started when you were little. Even though I am a large man, I sneak up on my kids all the time because you can't hear my footfall, and so over the years we made it a game, who can make the least sound? If you don't start these things, and if you never punish if it gets to be too much with warnings, then they never learn. You end up with an uncaring adult.

Look at how the letter was written. "Our lease calls for carpets on a fixed percentage of the floors, but we prefer hardwood floors. We installed some carpets, but adding more would not look right. Besides, virtually all of our neighbors ignore that lease provision."

Not one thing about we have tried our best to get our daughter to quiet down, and she is doing better, but it's not good enough for the lady downstairs...

The don't even talk about the problem. Carpeting ISN'T going to help much, because it is the beat of a weight hitting a hollow instrument. It'll muffle slightly, but the real problem remains. If quiet hours are being asked for, the kid is prolly up late too. My own mamalady lived with tenants like this above her in her last apt. You could never hear the adults, but you could hear the kid clearly, as late as 1am sometimes. Running back an forth in the hall. When the people moved out, they had to gut the apartment, because the people had done such damage. People who really didn't care much about anyone but #1.

Yeah, kids are that, it is up to adults to guide them. They don't know better until you help them learn it.

The aesthetics part of the question made me want to smack them, but what really needs to happen is that the downstairs tenant needs her ceiling insulated. Carpets, even with padding, aren't going to do much.
But why is Randy still writing this lame column? The NYT has a hilarious guy writing an etiquette column in the Style section and he's light-years ahead of this clown.

The downstairs neighbor might be like a co-worker of mine who swore she could hear my iPod from her desk. I lowered it and asked her if she could hear it. "Yes," she replied. I turned it off and asked her again if she could hear it. Again, she replied "Yes." That's when I got her!

Amy, I think we all agree that's how kids should be raised, but unfortunately, not everyone is as nice and understanding a neighbor as you. They'd be like, "Whenever I'm not home, they play alongside my house"...or "They wake me up!" (not considering it's 3 pm)...complain, complain. If someone is looking to criticize kids, they'll find a reason. It's easy to do.

What bothers me is how willing you are to side with the complainant. You immediately condemn the parents, even when there's not enough information, like in this case, to determine fault. I doubt you'd do that with your own neighbors, since you already view them as good parents, even if their kids sometimes misbehave (as all kids do), but you never give the benefit of the doubt to other parents.

The reality is that some people are just intolerant of children, and it doesn't matter what the parents do.

Count me as one who agreed with Amy until the update part. It's important to be considerate of your neighbors, and I would try to keep the noise to a minimum, but some people are just unreasonable nuts who you can't please, so why bother trying. I would be pissed if I went through the trouble and expense of putting the carpet in, and still not have it be good enough. And expecting small children to never make any noise in THEIR OWN HOME is unreasonable. Children should be running and playing and laughing. Send them outside? Then other neighbors might hear them.

"Crid is right -- I'm right about this."

Yup, you are 100% right. I'm always highly considerate about not making a noise that bothers the people around me; anything less is selfish, inconsiderate, and yes, uncivilized - by the very definition of civilized.

Things like mowing your lawn is a pointless strawman, since that is a *necessary* noise in order to maintain generally expected standards of upkeep. Running around the house, shouting, playing loud music - none of those are necessary. You're welcome to do it *provided* you aren't bothering your neighbours, but if you wilfully and unnecessarily bother your neighbours and don't care, then you have a character flaw.

... and it's not because I wouldn't *like* to also run around or play loud music that I don't ... but only spoiled people demand they get to do whatever they want even when it harms the people around them. Civilized people in a civilized society make compromises to live together civilly.

"And expecting small children to never make any noise in THEIR OWN HOME is unreasonable. Children should be running and playing and laughing."

No it's not unreasonable; children should be taught to well-behaved and considerate of others --- just because a home is "YOUR OWN HOME" (ooh, capital letters) doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want when you happen to live within close earshot of others. It really doesn't. Sorry. In case you hadn't noticed, the planet has been getting somewhat crowded, and people have to often live very close to one another.

I can hear a ticking clock through a bomb shelter wall. Can I tell people they don't get to have clocks? A 2 year old on carpet just isn't that noisy. I still say she's a shrew. Maybe not in part one, but it's part 2 that's telling.
People do make noise. Everyone knows that, and it's an unavoidable fact of life. That's why there are nuisance ordinances. To expect people to be silent always is ridiculous. For me, the whine of a lawnmower-which ALWAYS starts just when I get the baby down for nap-is the most grating noise on earth. Doesn't mean my neighbors can't mow their yard. And yes, 2 year olds DO need to move. The kid probably isn't even running-toddlers make really quick steps, because balancing is so hard for them. It's almost like a run, but that's their walk. Which they HAVE to do. Deal or move.

I think it's simple ignorance about 2 yr olds, which is excusable if you've never had one. Maybe you would lump ALL children in with a toddler, and hold them as accountable as an older child. But a 2 yr old weighs about as much as a minature schnauser. They cannot "stamp" on the floor in any meaningful, or menacing, way. With carpet or without, but especially with, no reasonable person should be disturbed by the pitter patter of a 2 years old. Those of us with children immediately recognize the neighbor's complaints as bogus and petty.

The question is not "How much noise can a two-year-old running on carpet make?" Many of you assume it can't be that much, and the old bitch should just deal with it. However, you have absolutely no way of knowing how it sounds in that particular building. The thump-thumping of little feet above could still carry quite a bit. Just because it might not bother you much doesn't make it okay to bother the lady with it. And you're still not asking the right question, which would be, "How can I, despite the challenges of having a two-year-old, still be a considerate neighbor?" Treating others' comfort as equally important to your own is not always easy. Just right.

We all know that children cry and yell and pitter-patter on the floors, that loud sex is enjoyed, lawns must be mowed, and the dog might let loose an errant bark. You can either let it all happen without caring that it might disturb others, or you can take steps to minimize it. Hmm, which is the more ethical, less childish thing to do?

I know, defensive parents--"It's a two-year-old, for god's sakes! It's natural for them to run! There's nothing you CAN do!!" No? I would say working to correct the running / stamping and limiting loud play in the APARTMENT (not on the playground!) is both conscientious communal living AND good parenting. I'm not a parent, am I allowed to say something like that? Oh wait, actual parents on the thread say the same thing, I guess I'm not completely full of crap.

And as for natural, just as you might try to bite back your screams in case your neighbors prefer sleep to witnessing to your orgasm, you might try to keep your child from running so wildly in the hall if the noise is disturbing your neighbor. Is that so unreasonable? Maybe it's not always going to work--hard to retrain those barbaric instinct! But isn't it the right thing to at least make an effort??

Quiet hours are not a bad idea, and are actually kept in Germany. Throughout the country, you are forbidden by law to play loud music, mow your lawn, or do anything else that creates noise that disturbs others from 1 to 3 PM, 9 PM to 7 AM, and all day on Sundays and holidays. I have seen Germans correct neighbors (usually Americans) on this.

The few apartment buildings and the one neighborhood I lived in were amazingly quiet--superior construction, or consideration? These places included young kids, and also plenty of dogs, among their inhabitants. You'll see them running around and playing (the kids, that is--German-owned dogs are too well-trained, I am 100% serious) but it would still get nearly silent during the daily quiet hours. It was nice.

Maybe the neighbor IS a cranky old bitch. That doesn't mean she is unworthy of some peace and quiet, whether her neighbors have a toddler or not. If they can sincerely tell, or better yet SHOW the lady that they are making a true effort to reduce the thumpy-thumpies, then she has little cause to complain again. So in that way the neighbor CAN compromise--just not the way some of you think.

I just looked it up. A 2 yr old weighs around 30-35 pds. Same as many small dogs. Of course, parents, and pet-owners, need to be considerate of noise, but honestly, anyone that freaks out over a 30 pd creature walking or running around above has too sensitive ears. That building must be as thin as paper, which is not the parents fault. They installed the carpet and that still wasn't good enough to insulate her from the 30 pd "threat". There's something wrong with this complainant.

"In short, because you have reproduced and dislike rugs, you don't get to disrupt another person's thoughts, sleep, reading, or their general peaceful enjoyment of their home."

Oh dear. Is this a bit peevish? Jaundiced? Sour-grapey?

LS, don't you have kids? Ever been in the basement when they were running across the floor? Many buildings have no insulation between floors, so yes it can be like paper. Dogs don't hit on one foot, as humans do when they are running, so... each human footfall gets the full weight...

But that isn't really the problem is it?

When people get together and work stuff out, they can make a problem go away. And, when they say: "deal, not my problem" Then it won't get worked out. IF the parents get the kid to simmer down, and pay attention to their neighbors, the problem falls below the threshold that it's worth getting irritated over. Either the lady stops making a fuss or moves out.

But then they wouldn't be writing somebody and trying to justify their own behavior as reasonable, they would know it is. Who is it they are trying to get to justify their actions, and what actions are they justifying? Lotsa people live in apartments and always have... Regardless, what you remember is the kind people and what they did for you, even if it was just a smile. You try and forget the door slammers, and the ones who park your car in, because they just need to run into the house rather than actually pulling all the way into their own space. The smily one had 3 kids, 4, 2, and 9 months. I never heard a peep, except when the 9month old was colicky... and then we comiserated over colicky kids.

"my wife and I prefer to live next to a soybean field at the end of a dead-end road, with my nearest neighbor on the other side of a hill."

I know, it's the best way to go -- and nobody nosing around in the shed, checking out the hockey mask and chainsaw collection. So peaceful.

"expecting small children to never make any noise in THEIR OWN HOME is unreasonable"

Bingo. It is their home, and kids have rights too. They do not have to be totally silent, just reasonable. Life is about compromises. The kids should not be too noisy and the downstairs neighbor should not be too fussy. However, yes, the downstairs neighbor may notice that kids live above her. After all, they do.

As several people have pointed out: there is not enough information here to tell who is at fault. It may even be that no one is at fault, if the building is poorly constructed. What I find disappointing is that so many people, including our hostess, automatically assume that the fault lies with the children.

BTW: I had no idea that adults-only complexes were illegal, but if the people were under a certain age.. The twisted logic to justify this is a feat worthy of...well, something. Whatever happened to the constitutional provision that guarantees "freedom of association"?

Amy: totally off-topic, but a book that you might like to blog about: Why Gender Matters

Too many bloody rug rats already.

bradley: They do not have to be totally silent, just reasonable.

One doesn't have to be silent to avoid disturbing the neighbors. I can watch television without disturbing the neighbors.

Of course they should have bought the rugs immediately, in fact they should have installed carpets without even being asked, it was in their lease after all, and I am sure they knew perfectly well the child was being noisy.

Having said that, I once lived above a neighbour, very briefly thank goodness, who started banging on the ceiling as soon as I simply opened my door, walked in and across the floor. Literally. He was just an arse, some people are, short of buying hover boots and not touching the floors at all, I was never going to make this chump happy.

So, I might have wondered if their downstairs neighbour was being unreasonable, had they not refused to do the right thing in the first place. Bottom line, if you want the space, peace and privacy of a house, buy a house. If they can't do that I am quite sure they can get a bottom floor flat where their child can run around a lot more.

The least they can do is minimise the noise to the best of their ability. Being more concerned about how pretty their hardwood floors look than their neighbour's peace and happiness? Now that is truly selfish.

I suppose a reasonable response might be to buy some pads for below the carpet. And have the kid mellow out in the evening.

I might ask the lady to see her apartment, and then have my spouse and kid run down the hall while in the lady's apartment. You know, trust but verify. If you cannot really hear anything, then it is time to cheerfully turn to her, call her a crazy bitch, and tell her if she comes near you again, you are getting a restraining order.

Oh, and where did people get this freakish notion that in no way, ever, at no time can other people make the sort of noise that living, moving humans make? Apartments and dorms can be noisy. /shrug

Wow. Lots of comments on a topic I really wouldn't have expected to generate so much back and forth. And me here late to the party.
I have no deep and pithy point to make but the post has put Paul Simon's "One Man's Ceiling Is Another Man's Floor" in my mind as a serious ear worm.
No that I'm complaining. Really. Much.

Speaking of the song, there's a line "There's an alley in the back of my building / where people congregate in shame" which I find apropos as if people actually *felt* shame these days, about half of what they do wouldn't be done.

I called a realtor once, on what looked like a house, & was told the community was adults only 45 & older. But it turned out to also be trailers.

~~~

You CAN specify who you want to rent to, if the property is Owner Occupied. (atleast here.) If it's part of you own house, you can be specific.

~~~

Our neighbors are actually quieter now that they have a kid. Before it was screaming, door slamming, fights. Now they sound like normal neighbors.

Interesting article, Amy.

People need to have realistic expectations about their place of dwelling. A house in the middle of the country will likely have no sounds of neighbors interrupting the serenity, and an apartment, particularly dependent on the quality of the construction, will. (I've lived in places where you could hear the toilet flush in the apt above, every single time.)

That said, the attitude of the parents who resisted laying down carpet despite it being a requirement, is more than a little selfish. Now that they have laid the carpet and there are still noise complaints, maybe lady downstairs IS overreacting.

It all goes to the awareness that you're not the only person on your particular square on the grid, and behaving as such. Golden Rule, anyone?

I mentioned the to-do about the kid on the plane to my sister-in-law when we were visiting last month. She didn't have an opinion on that particular topic, but she said she had noticed a definite decline in our tolerance of children.

She and her husband do not have children, by choice as far as I know. She is a very intelligent person who has that calm, thoughtful way of speaking that makes you pay attention and consider what she says.

It was over the Thanksgiving holiday and there were continual distractions so we didn't get into any discussions about it, but what she said has stayed with me. I don't know if it's true, but I do see that nothing seems to get posters more riled up than a topic like this one!

My own opinion: a.If you sign a lease, you gotta follow it. b.As the other Beth mentioned,that old golden rule, you know the one about "doing unto others as you would have others do unto you", really applies here.

As for quiet hours, when there's no running... does anyone else remember playpens? My mother definitely made use of hers. She had one for when she was outdoors hanging clothes on the line, for instance. No toddlers running into the street or whatever. Same thing inside when she needed it.

"As for quiet hours, when there's no running... does anyone else remember playpens? My mother definitely made use of hers."

I was just asking a friend of mine (who is also a mother of three) about this same thing. I was telling her about the neighbor of mine who sat through our entire condo board meeting fighting with her 2-year-old. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why she didn't put the kid in a playpen for the hour or so that our meeting took. Instead, she fought with this whiny kid constantly, as the child smeared goo all over everything and repeatedly tried to yank the power cord out of the laptop computer. My friend used a playpen for her three kids, and they didn't come out all crazy or anything. What gives? Is there an anti-playpen movement afoot?

What gives? Is there an anti-playpen movement afoot?

It's probably some nonsense about stifling a child's creativity by putting up barriers to her environment. On the other hand, 2 years old may be just old enough to start climbing out of them.

I agree with your sister-in-law, Pricklypear. I've noticed the same thing. There seems to be a kind of a backlash against parents and a real disdain for children, unless they're perfectly behaved.

Maybe that's because a few rotten parents, with unruly kids, have ruined it for all of us. But I think it could also be because, in the past 15-20 years, we've been experiencing a baby boom, which we hadn't experienced since WW2 (I was born at the tail end of the last one). Back then, our mothers mostly stayed home and having children was the norm, so people were used to being around children.

Now, there seems to be quite a divide in lifestyles. Many, who had grown accustomed to not having children intrude on their peace and quiet, suddenly feel surrounded by children and they're annoyed.

"What gives? Is there an anti-playpen movement afoot?"

When my kids were little, there were "play yards" - octogonal shaped areas, bigger than a playpen, but able to contain the child for long periods (with supervision). They were great. I couldn't have gotten anything done without them. But maybe that fell out of vogue.

Still, a two year old can move around in them. If someone can hear 30 pd footsteps, they might hear the child.

The Golden rule may not do anything for the situation. The down stair's lady may want quiet and be perfectly willing to give it. She might even want to know of she is bothering someone so she can do something about it rather that annoying the neighbor. The upstair's people just want to accept disturbances quietly. So it seems we pretty have this same situation. Though I suppose to truely follow it the upstairs resident would not let the complaints from the neighbor bother them.

Really this type of situations seems like it often does not have a good solution.

Now, there seems to be quite a divide in lifestyles. Many, who had grown accustomed to not having children intrude on their peace and quiet, suddenly feel surrounded by children and they're annoyed.

You may be right about this. I think it also has to do with a fuzzier line between the adult's world and the child's world. It seems there's nowhere for adults to go that's strictly "adult." Parents are even taking their kids into bars and late-night movies. My fiance was recently bitched out by some people playing WoW for suggesting that Blizzard create an adults-only server where adults could speak freely.

playpens have been recalled-kids got bent in half over the side and died of suffocation or something. They gave pack n plays now, which are too small to confine a puppy in if not asleep, much less a kid over 6 months. Every plastic-locked drop-side crib ever made has been recalled too, pretty much. Parenting is WAY different than when we were kids, some for the good, some for the bad. But you just can't compare.

I've seen gates, which are functionally equivalent to play pens.

Right? When I lived in a trailer (B.D.*), I put up a gate across #1's bedroom doorway, because it was the only way I could get any housework done without her underfoot. She was in her room, she was safe, I could hear her, I could look in on her, I could get my work done. Then I'd take down the gate, and she would proudly show me her "imperations" (her word for the piles of toys and such that she would make), which we would then clean up, followed by a nap. Worked every time.

*Before Divorce

I've lived in my apartment for four years. During that time, I've had five different upstairs neighbors. One had no children, two had older kids (6 & up), and two have had preschoolers. The ceiling isn't thick nor is it thin. But I can hear the preschoolers run. Every blessed running step sounds like a bongo drum to me. However, I can't hear their parents walk. So for those saying that its impossible to hear a two year old run, I would like to invite you to my apartment to listen for a while.

Other noises leak through - whenever the two year old has a screaming fit, I can hear it. When Mom vacuums (and Mom LOVES to vacuum), I hear it. But I can't hear their TV, regular crying, or much other noise. It's just the way the little ones run, all their weight thumps down heavily. By the way, all apartments in our complex have carpet, so this through carpet that I can hear this.

The ones with the littlest kids have been the hardest to deal with, simply because you can't really complain. They're kids, they can't run softly, and to tell a kid that they can't run off energy in their own house (especially since there's no safe place to play in our complex) is unfair. However, I do wish I could ask Mom to vacuum less. She must vacuum every day.

One of the worst neighbors I had was the one without children, because she didn't know how to run a washing machine. She unbalanced that thing so bad, I would swear that it had to be WALKING across the floor! And, naturally, she loved to do her laundry as often as possible.

So please, guys, before saying that you can't hear a two year old run, come on over to my place sometime. You can hear it, even if you can't hear them talking or crying (a screaming fit is easy to hear, however).

I think I used to live beneath these idiots. They're a major reason why I stretched my budget to the breaking point to buy a house.

Every year it was someone new and equally loud. I had Mr. Muscles who worked out with barbells, Hefferella who must have weighed in at 400lb, the single mother whose children liked to sleep in so she'd scream at them at 10 minute intervals every day from 6:00 - 7:30 a.m., and my favorites, the folks who adopted a homeless howler monkey who liked to scream at ramdom intervals nightly (no human child could have produced such sounds).

I wouldn't have minded the little screecher so much, but his parents must have belonged to the 'cry it out' school of parenting, or as I like to put it, 'too damn lazy to get out of bed and deal with the brat's wet diaper'.

As for the little runner, her father worked the 7-11 shift and her mother would get her up so that daddykins could see his little angel. This would invariably lead to a good hour of running back and forth. If it had happened between 6-7 p.m., I would have shrugged it off as one of the normal vagaries of apartment living, but late at night while I was trying to sleep, it was intolerable.