I agree with everything Hitchens says. I find the other chap (Rosenbaum, is it?) very hard to pay attention to: he looks and sounds far too like Gene Wilder for me to take anything he says seriously....

The first guy likes hearing himself talk -- a lot -- and unfortunately, says little in lots of words.

Is that a reference to the first bloke in the video, or the first bloke in the responses thread...?

:/

I agree with Hitchens about the evils of organized religion. I take issue with him ridiculing people's privately held beliefs. People need God for spiritual sustenance. How can he mock them for this?

Its very easy. Imagine for a moment you met an aztec who belived he HAD to sacrifce at least four people a year to Tezcatlipoa in order to make the sun shine.

The only difference in the ridiculasness of your belif and his is that yours only requires eating bodypart in effigy rather than reality

> I take issue with him ridiculing people's
> privately held beliefs. People need God
> for spiritual sustenance. How can he mock
> them for this?

Your argument actually finds some traction here. When the religious beliefs are truly private, it's hard to complain. I've just starting a job at a new site, and have, after two of three close shifts with people, been asking them whether they're religious. There's been zero pattern to their responses... I truly would not have known. So long as they're not out there picketing to do something horrible, why complain? This is what we've done to typical American Christianity: We've demanded it be pursued as an intensely personal taste, like a minor dietary preference. It's worked out well. And the only people upset about it are the professional chefs (preachers).

Hitchens' argument is an important one, and I think everyone should bear it in mind: Religious texts are unimprovable. When the smelly stuff hits the fan (and he's right, eventually, it always does), non-believers have to be ready to defend their boundaries instantly, harshly, and personally.



But when persuading others to surrender their allegiances, there are things to bear in mind. In no particular order (yet; ask again in 2017):

• Religion can tidy up a disorderly life. Religions have rituals. Rituals are not to be missed. This isn't a small thing. When you're in a challenging place in your life (alcoholism, say, or maybe cancer treatment, or maybe just starting a new job), doing things consistently is important. It allows testing of selected variations. (Isn't this the essence of science, or at least of human reason?) Darwin built the need for order into our hearts, and the church will deliver the goods.

• Life is dark. Life is way fucking dark. I've had a fantastically, EPICALLY rich (if not wealthy) life, full of automatic education and opportunity, bountiful food, winter warmth, solid health, loving family, well-stacked libraries, better-stacked dates, and even more opportunity... And still I've been appalled by the horrible things that can AND WILL happen to much better people for absolutely no reason. That's how the natural world works: In the end, you lose everything and nature wins. Not the church, not the school, not the bank, not the lead guitarist... NATURE WINS.

Well, that's shitty. But people don't talk about it.

And there are good reasons not to talk about it. A favorite aphorism from the last twenty years was in Colin Powell's autobiography: "Optimism is a force multiplier". If you don't pay too much attention to the odds against you, you might do pretty well.

So every time your average (church-going) Joe turns on his TV in the morning, he sees an array of chirpy blowjob women with fancy hair talking about how great life's going to be that day, and he knows it's not true. So then he goes to church on Sunday, and the preacher says "Dude, life is way dark, ain't it?" (And Joe won't try to con him about it, since he's the guy Joe calls to officiate at funerals.)

The church (alone) tells the truth. Joe may not buy the product of the Today Show sponsor, but he'll drop a few dimes into the collection plate.

• The best churches (specifically NOT including Scientology) demand humility. I think because of the way the natural world works: You only make real progress in challenging circumstances when you're ready to set your ego and other investments aside to see things as they are; humility's another fundamental human need.

• People are lonely. There's almost no limit to loneliness. Look at this blog, look at the internet... People are fearful and they're scared, and before you make fun of them for having imaginary Saviors, you ought to have the strength to acknowledge what people mean when they say they're looking for a religious connection...

...Unless making fun of people is what you got into the atheism business for, as it all too often is. You can't be counted on to pull people out of a religious fog until you offer them something better... Not just something clearer, but something warmer.


One last point: I think (and I know you didn't ask) that chattering about "organized religion" is poor form.

It's wordy. You don't have any precious distinction in mind, do you? For some reason, at least two (maybe three) generations of Americans have fallen into the habit of sneering –or doing air quotes– as they say the word "organized"... As if this were an administrative problem. But they're never challenged on the point being made. Is the problem that churches too often use Microsoft Office applications as they compose their mailing lists (with its famous inhospitability to networked printers), when they should be using Google Document software? Or is the problem that in a proper religion –one you might approve of– people would just fucking KNOW what God wants out of them? Very little good happens in this world without consulting the wisdom of others. All religions are "organized"; everything else is asshole-ism on an individual basis.


I loves me some Hitch. Just sayin'.

OK, "fearful and scared" are the same thing, but this is my Friday night. What, you never had a short glass of Cab at the end of a tough workweek?

Deceiver! I don't believe you!