I have to say that I'm utterly shocked to read this. As far as I know, bars here in Iowa are off-limits for anybody under drinking age...they have regular kerfluffles in the university towns between underage types who just want to go where their friends are and the people who're still mourning the repeal of the Prohibition Amendment.

Of course, the kind of bars I hang around in would make the Mos Eisley Cantina in Star Wars: A New Hope look like Mister Roger's Neighborhood. I'd bet that if the Hells Angels came by, they'd take one look and back out with their noses in the air.

I thought it was illegal for children to sit in the "bar" area of a restaurant. (This appears to be the case for casinos, at least in Vegas.) When I have a bite to eat at the local "Islands" restaurant I usually sit in the bar area and am always surprised when I see a family sitting right up at the bar next to the beer taps.

Taking a cue from your "Chuck E. Cheese" comment, maybe we adults should start arranging to have bachelor(ette) parties, complete with scantily-clad models, at Chuck E. Cheese!

Sadly, though, I think the result of such an attempt would be some type of police action and/or charges of creating a "hostile" environment.

I think it's ridiculous to bring children to bars. Shouldn't be done. But outside of places like ski resorts where bars and restaurants tend to share seating, I've never seen any children at any bars (or most of the restaurants) I go to. How common is this outside of places like Williamsburg?

The discussion about breastpumps at the bar has me intrigued. I wonder if there are any discussion about whether the breastfeeding child prefers his mommy to have tequila or goldschlager.

Many moons ago my alcoholic stepfather would drag my sister and I (about 9 & 6) to the Rod & Gun club, Legion, or VFW for hours. I learned some stuff way early.

I don't see a problem with a kid in a bar for an hour with a quick food stop and beer. But before 6. No extended stays; not after 6. And their are family friendly (i.e. neigborhood local bars vs a a biker bar or strip joint).

But screwing the bar owner for wanting to set the rules; I won't support that.

I like two glasses of wine a week! Sometimes in public! Sometimes three, because Rock n' Roll is my middle name! But there are no children.

When the kids have gone to bed, maybe a drink makes sense. A lot things, important things, make good sense once the kids have gone to bed. But kids like to run around and throw stuff. A fern bar's a weird place to bring them and make them sit while you do something so self-absorbed. Taking your kids out to watch you drink, even moderately, makes making your kids sit quietly in church seem profoundly noble.

The two things that come in to mind why bars are seem like a good place to bring kids.

First, changes in smoking laws. Before hand a smoky bar would scream not my child's health to a parent. But with a smoke free bar that bar of the past now looks like a coffee cafe with beer.

Second, the attitude that "The customer is ALWAYS right!". Yep you heard me no matter how silly, crazy, defy the laws of the land, physics and general morality - The customer is always right. I want to try on this pair of underwear touching my nether regions. What I have to try over my other underwear. I do not want to! I want to relax with a beer or five. But I want to bring my kid, dog, so you have to let me.

Argh!

How about "it depends". There are drinking establishments where kids are appropriate, and others where they are not. Just as there are restaurants of each type. Example: the TGI-Friday's that I know are full of kids, and seem geared for it, even though they have a bar area.

If a bar or restaurant wants to have a "no kids" policy, because that's the kind of atmosphere they want to cultivate, great. If they want to be a family place, that's fine too. It ought to be their choice - and if you don't like the way they choose, vote by taking your business elsewhere.

What I object to are law that force the issue, in either direction. It's your business and your choice. The same goes for men-only/women-only, or whatever.

Of course, someone will rightly point out that this quickly enters discrimination territory. If I can have a women-only gym club, can I have a white-only club? Why? Why not? Where do you draw the line?

Last time I was in Chuckie Cheese they did serve beer - only a few kinds - and an adult had to pick it up from a small bar window.

Around here any bar area is 21+ only. Someone mentioned TGI Friday - well here it is primarily a restaurant which is open to everyone and then a small bar area that is 21+ only. That arrangement seems common here. I do know of place that is like that till 9pm or so and then the whole place becomes 21+.

Sometime back I saw on the news of a lunch place - very formal/classy - that had been invaded by mom's and kids. The owner wanted to kick them out or at least limit there number because he felt they were chasing away the business lunches. However, he couldn't really do that to the everyone or else it was discrimination - he could if he had cause kick each one out individual.

The adult space does seem to be dwindiling. Around here, I would say the bars are pretty much it.

I thought 51% establishments were off-limits to kids? I'm pretty sure they are here, which leaves pubs that serve food open to parental abuse, but true bars are over-21 only.

Who would take a kid to a bar, anyway? I've upgraded my movie-viewing experience to only Alamo Drafthouse, to escape the Jr High mafia scene. And I never really go to bars, but I still think they should be over-21 only. Some places here in Austin have dabbled with over-25 only, to keep the college kids out.

So, I am obviously a parent, but I fully support adults-only places. I actually think business owners should be able to specify whatever group they want to cater to, as the only ones allowed. I'd support adults-only flights, too.

Spot on again Amy. Best line is Your World Is Their Daycare Center.

Thanks for helping to try and inform the clueless.

"Anson took my truck!"

Anson. Ha. That kid has more problems than just being dragged around the bar scene by Mommy.

My absolute favorite bar used to be Toad's Place, in New Haven. Great bands, great drinks, party all the time. Until. They started having all-ages nights, because some of the people in some of the bands were *gasp!* underage! Couldn't have that! "But the bass player's only 17!" But we're paying them. He's got to go on." "But it's against the law!" "We'll have to make an exception." Which led to the bar letting in underage "fans" of the band, which led to "all-ages night" which was great, watching not only the Yalies, but all the other underage kids puking on the floor. Swell. Then the manager got smart. First, he put up a fence, and you could only go beyond the fence into the bar where they were serving drinks if you had an ID. Then he made one part of the bar "designated" drinking, on the all-ages nights. So you could go see the band, but if you were drinking, you had to watch the band on the closed-circuit TV in the bar. They don't serve food, though, and they don't open before 7, except to let the band in, but honestly, if I saw anyone in there with kids in strollers, I'd have to boycott the place. There are other bars, though, that are supposedly "family friendly" as long as the kids are not directly in the "bar" area. But I still don't see what's wrong with going to someone's house and bringing your own drinks, if that's what you want to do. You could put the kids in the yard in the summertime. In the winter, yeah, I guess some people get cabin fever or whatever, but in that case, I'd get a sitter for the kids and meet the other moms, sans kids, for drinks. There really is no reason to bring kids to a bar, just because mom wants a drink or 2. Besides, it's cheaper to drink at home. Ambiance schmambiance, little kids do NOT belong in a bar.

I want to know where those of you live where the laws state no one under 21 in a bar. I'm moving there tomorrow.

In Colorado, it's apparently perfectly fine to belly your kids up to the bar complete with coloring books (I WISH I could say I didn't have a front row seat for that), have a birthday party for a FIVE-YEAR-OLD, and just generally treat the place like it's the Anheuser Busch Daycare Center, complete with clueless parents who are too busy getting wasted to watch what their kids are doing.

People need to realize that if you choose to be a parent, you are NOT going to have the same level of freedom you had before kids. If you're not willing to make the sacrifices, then don't have them. The village does not want to raise your kid for you, and if you bring them to the bar and let them run around and annoy me, I will teach them some new vocabulary words. Just sayin'.

Context is all. I have been to more bars in more nations than I could ever hope to remember.

Taking a kid below 18 to a loud, crowded "saloon" type atmosphere during boozy times (typically past 9 pm) is a bad idea. Parents doing that are wrong-headed.

A parent taking a kid of any age to a beer garden-type bar, where the tone is sedate and the hour is still early, to have a beer with a friend or two similarly encumbered by well-behaved kids is no imposition on anyone. (Some might actually suggest it is important to help socialize kids to how people interact socially and drink without excess.) Kids' presence in a bar, by itself, does not detract from your experience, or shouldn't. Only when those kids--or clueless adults--start crossing boundaries does it become a problem.

For example, you want to curse it up and laugh loud at bawd jokes? Great. Stay home or go to a loud joint after 9 pm, where you are very unlikely to find kids or other adults who want you to STFU. But at 6:30 pm in a quiet pub, *you* STFU and don't expect other people to restrict their lives to suit your taste for bawdy jokes and loud laughter.

Also, I have never seen a child hit someone with a beer bottle, kill someone while driving drunk, or do any of the other things adults screw up so badly after going into a bar. Yet kids in bars are so self-evidently a problem, when their impact is non-existent, except as an annoyance to the childless? By contrast, adults often ruin other people's lives (or end them) after visiting bars.

If I am ladling out umbrage, my first and largest spoonful goes to adults in bars who do all that stupid shit that really ruins the night.

Poor kids. Sit in a stroller or wander around bored out of your mind because mommy needs another boiler-maker. We have a bowling alley/casino here where I've seen kids literally begging their folks to take them home.

Pathetic.

Besides, who drinks when in charge of their kids anyway?? DH OR I have a beer when we go out to eat (at 4 pm, so as not to bother others who might have paid for a sitter) but never both. You want a cop to really get you for everything he possibly can? Get pulled over smelling of alcohol with kids in the car-drunk or not.

You really, really want to sit and have a beer with friends who have kids, with your kids? Do it at home.

Our rule has always been no drinking when we are with the kids - not even one. What if something happens? Besides, if you get caught driving around with kids after one or two drinks, it's child endangerment. I can have plenty of drinks after I've made arrangements with the sitter and they are safetly in someone elses care, then I can let loose!

I have friends on their first round of kids, and YES they are adorable, but when I'm up at the bar more than likely to get away from my own kids, I really don't want to entertain or watch yours!

Bars are NEVER a place for children.

It's Brooklyn. All the young "hipsters" live there now. They can't believe there is anything they aren't entitled too.

~~~

Funniest site evar!! ... http://notalwaysright(dot)com/

Customer is Not always right

~~~

(Note: we are VERY generous in offering frozen yogurt samples in those tiny paper cups that could fit on your thumb.)

Me: “Here you go, our six choices!” *offers samples*

(Customer takes samples and shoves the whole thing in her mouth and sucks contents out. When done, she puts the cups back on the counter with yogurt and a LITTLE bit of saliva dripping off the sides. She scoots them in my direction.)

Me: *stares back, thinking, are you serious?*

Customer: *stares back at me for what seems like forever*

Me: “There is a trashcan right below you that you could put those in.”

Customer: “Ew, I’m not touching those! That’s your job.”

(The customer walks away, leaving me staring at the messy glob of cups on our front counter.)

Me: O___o

I don't think kids should be bellying up to the bar, but most of the behavior mentioned here (running around, making a racket, parents generally allowing the kids to be nuisances) is inappropriate in many other public settings as well. I've had a few meals ruined by the same thing.

I find this shocking, epsecially that mothers would picket or organize against a bar establishment for not letting them have their "mommy and me" time there.

This wouldn't happen in FL. Anyone under 21 isn't allowed to sit at a bar. We do have bar/restaurants, so of course, you'll have families there, but I've never sat at a bar, or been in a bar area with a small child sitting near me (except at some place like Chilis or TGI Fridays). Usually, the owners would be afraid of liability and/or losing their liquor license (here, those are hundreds of thousands of dollars).

What is going in NY? Are there no restrictions? And it seems like NYC has tons of family-friendly restaurants, that also serve liquor, if mom really wants to sit and have a beer with friends. Life doesn't have to change THAT much - you can still meet for a glass of wine in a low-key restaurant - but anyone with any sense knows bars aren't appropriate for children.

So offer the tyke a sip of your drink.

Maybe the bar owners can order little kid-sized pilsner glasses from Germany or somewhere.

Nothing like pitting entitled kids against entitled parents.

RE: YWITDCC

We had a group of mommies in my town that used to deliberately take over establishments - not bars, but cafe's and restaurants. There was a kerfluffle when a local bagel place basically asked them not to come around any more. Five or six of them would arrive in the morning w/ their kids, and the kids' toys, and spread out across all of the available tables. Then they'd hang out for several hours while the moms held court.

When the mothers wrote to the local paper, attempting to embarrass the bagel shop, they were met by several letters the next week, from other establishments pointing out what these women were actually doing - they hadn't been candid about this in their original letter - and that they had become notorious for doing this at restaurants all over town.

Families patronize pubs in Ireland. What's the big deal? We need less regulation, not more, remember the libertarianism thing? Or was that a passing phases?
Alkon's anti-child rants probably are a form of resentment, and also false entitlement.
Maybe Alkon would prefer living in a retirement community in Switzerland.
In Israel, kids are welcomed almost every place. A common attitude is show expose children to adult settings, such as banks, so they will want to participate when they get older.

Well, no one dislikes Amy's "anti-child rants" more than me, but, on this, she happens to be right. It's not excessive regulation to prohibit children from being in bars.

My favorite Italian restaurant has a bar area, and there are some high, cocktail-style tables there. The main restaurant is away from the bar area, though it's still open. On occassion, we have stopped in and found friends at the bar, and I might grab a bar stool for a few minutes while I chat with them. Since I know the bartender, she has sometimes encouraged my daughter to sit down at the bar next to me when it's not very busy, but I say "no". I just don't think it's appropriate for her to sit AT the bar, even though she's 15. I can't imagine thinking it was ok when she was 6.

Just break out a salt shaker and Mayor Bloomberg will chase everybody out.

The closest I've come to that faux pas was taking my girls (9 and 6 then) to Hooters after a gymnastics meet. It was the only place around still open - if I remember it was on a weekday after 10 in Rochester, and we had an hour plus drive ahead of us. My wife was with us. We both like the wings. It so helps that my wife was cuter than the barmaids/servers/?, so there was no danger of me embarrassing myself. My kids were, as always, well behaved. Let's just say that Japanese and American child rearing methods differ. You don't need the details.

If it serves food, it's a restaurant, and it's OK for well behaved kids to be there. If it only serves alcohol, it's a bar, and kids are verboten.

The problem isn't kids, it's kids with no manners or limits. Oddly enough, their parents seem to exhibit the same traits.

"Okay, Mister, so look the other way when the lady's breastfeeding!"

Yawn. If the woman wants to feed the kid in public, I've got no problem staring, not in lust but more likely in disgust that you think I need to see your titty feeding your kid. Propriety? It appears to be dead. Cover up, use discretion and let the kid eat in semi privacy. Those women seem to be the type that also whine and cry that "breasts aren't sexual!" then turn around and wear tops showing off copious amounts of clevage.

> Ambiance schmambiance, little kids
> do NOT belong in a bar.

Exactly. Adults need to chill, but kids need to calm down, and it's not the same thing. A kids who needs to calm down should do so immediately. But an adult, a GOOD adult, can wait as long as necessary (maybe until the kids are asleep) to chill.

I agree entirely with Crid's post above.

This link is relevant to this discussion.

http://community.livejournal.com/depression/8223318.html

"We need less regulation, not more, remember the libertarianism thing?"

Um, yeah. Ultimately, I think it should rest with the owner of the establishment.
Kid-Friendly? Fine. No Kids Allowed? Fine.
Just respect the rules of the establishment.

Actually, come to think of it, the flip side of "the customer's always right" argument is "don't disrespect the host."

What do you think, Amy?

"Usually, the owners would be afraid of liability and/or losing their liquor license (here, those are hundreds of thousands of dollars)."

Same here-TABC is NOT to be messed with, and people whose livelihood depends on that liscense take no chances.

Breastfeeding doesn't bother me in the least-you have to really, really, really be trying hard to see boob while it's done. But if I were the one doing it in public, and someone was trying hard to look, I'd not say anything to them. It's public, after all. If it bothered me, I'd move. And I have breastfed just about everywhere. I've had people come over and talk to me while I'm doing it, then when I pull kiddo up to burp (shirt immediately falls down to cover) they've said "OMG, I didn't realize ....stammer stammer stammer" and I just say "It's ok, that means I was doing it right!".

Anyway, the point is adults need places to be adult, and bars should be one of those places. Whether the kid's being bothersome or not doesn't matter. Restaurants are not bars, and if you want wine with whine, go to one.

I remember weeping openly when Tavern on the Green in NYC became kid friendly. Now they are closing up shop. I personally don't find this a coincidence.
What is it with parents insisting that they should be able to bring thier wittle pwecious pwincess evweywhere!?
"Oh but it will hurt her feelings if I leave her at home and go our without her," I heard one parent justify once. Trust me lady, the kid doesn't want to be there anyway. They would much rather be at a playground, or at home with thier toys, or at a circus, or some other KID friendly place than at a resturant anyway. Why don't parents just come out and say that bringing thier kids to adult places isn't for the kid, it is for them because they can't bare to leave junior. I get that sometimes parents need a drink but they truly feel entitled to that drink RIGHT NOW so they drag junior out with them. You want to get out and have a drink? Then get a babysitter. Can't afford one? Then you really shouldn't be spending what little money you have on a drink anyway dontcha think?

Back home in Montana, where your choice is either the Mint or the Silver Dollar, everyone brings their little kids to a bar. It's not a big deal. Most people drop in for a beer and a bump--Oly or Rainier--and goes home. Sometimes the kids ride in the back of the pick-up with the dogs.
Would I do it in LA? No.
But out in the sticks? Why the hell not?

The critical difference is in the behavior.

If your child is sitting at a table eating a sandwich or playing a game or coloring, I don't notice they are there and don't care.

If your child is screaming and shouting and running about and making it difficult for me to enjoy the meal I'm paying for, then I've got a problem. And I'll make it YOUR problem.

Alkon's anti-child rants probably are a form of resentment, and also false entitlement.
Maybe Alkon would prefer living in a retirement community in Switzerland.
In Israel, kids are welcomed almost every place. A common attitude is show expose children to adult settings, such as banks, so they will want to participate when they get older.

Posted by: Mr Short Dick at January 19, 2010 9:38 AM

Get off my lawn.

Here in Alberta, you have to be 18 to enter a bar. However, there are many restaurants that have a "bar-like" setting -- tall tables, TVs, music. I see no reason for having or wanting to drag your kids into a real bar.

Some places here even have live music playing on weekends -- a nice setting to introduce older kids to age appropriate night life. In some of the smaller tourist towns, establishments are often restaurants until 9:00 p.m. and then bars after that. Seems to work well.

I don't understand why these mom's can't find a local, family friendly restaurant to have a snack and chat over a cocktail. Of course, they still have to ensure their kids behave appropriately.

Chuck E. Cheese in this city is awful. The games are all ones where you roll your token down the slot and try to hit a target. Just plunk your tokens in folks! Talk about setting kids up for Vegas. I know home video games killed the market, but I miss arcades -- particularly those with a bar area. It was fun to grab a beer and then spend an hour racing my son on Gran Turismo! Or shooting Bucks! The home games just don't compare.

Everbuddy enjoying this handsome tinseltown weather?

If your child is screaming and shouting and running about and making it difficult for me to enjoy the meal I'm paying for, then I've got a problem. And I'll make it YOUR problem.

Posted by: brian at January 19, 2010 12:26 PM

That attitude according to some people makes you a child-hater. Oh and in Israel, the kids jump on the tables while the adults drink adult-beverages and everyone just chuckles!

What is going in NY? Are there no restrictions?

NYC parents have developed a rep for being the all-nanny, all-the-time types. One couple I know of requested that the nanny get the kids to bed before they got home from work so they wouldn't have to deal with them. For people like that, kids are an enormous inconvenience.

That's the extreme, but I also know quite a few working moms (this issue seems to be more common with working moms) who do love their children and insist on taking them everywhere when they are not at work. The SAHMs I know are eager to leave their kids home when they get some time to themselves. So perhaps guilt+money=raging sense of entitlement.

That said, I go to bars several times a month in NYC, and I never see kids there.

"Alkon's anti-child rants probably are a form of resentment, and also false entitlement."

She's not anti-child, she's anti-crappola-parenting. And she's right.

I spent my entire childhood begging my parents to take me home from the bar. I would have been happy not to have to spend hours at a time there. My parents were certainly not paying any attention to our behavior--they were there to tie one on. They drove us home afterward, too. Something that I guess has not occurred to any of the pro-kids-in-bars crowd is that people often behave badly when drunk. Some of them are even sexually inappropriate with children! I saw more fucked-up adult behavior before I was 10 than you would believe. It wasn't until I was in my 20s that I realized this was kind of abnormal.

To summarize: it's not just bad for adults who don't care to hear shrieking children in the beer joint (which group I am definitely in), it's bad for the kids. Y'all are going to have to trust me on this.

The bar owner should start offering the tyke-sized t-shirts that say "I'm why Mommy drinks".

The bar owner should start offering the tyke-sized t-shirts that say "I'm why Mommy drinks".

Or the one T-Shirt Hell offers up: "Daddy drrinks because I cry."

Alkon's anti-child rants probably are a form of resentment

I resent bad parenting. And my "rants" are not "anti-child" -- they're anti-underparenting and inconsideration. What matters, for example, isn't that my neighbor's son sometimes wakes me up, but that they ask him to please be quiet when they think I might be sleeping. In other words, the fact that they care, that they make an effort not to just run roughshod over the rest of us because they reproduced.

As for supposedly BEING "anti-child" (an assumption simplistic thinkers and lax parents always leap to) I'm pretty much the favorite person in the world of a few children -- all of them very well-parented. I write and mail letters from the elephants to my friend Sergeant Heather's autistic son, and try to be a force for good in the lives of about nine kids altogether.

Amen to the resentment of underparenting. I used to work in a women's clothing store that provided coloring for the kids in the dressing room area, so we were kid- and mom-friendly. There were several kids that knew us and would greet us by name when they came in. There were also the kids of the moms who dragged them in first thing on a Saturday and left them to their own devices for three hours while the "mommies" tried on clothes. The kids were acting so bad that a regular customer, who was the sweetest lady I have ever met in my life (and who always came to drop a lot of money with us whenever she was in Nashville), came out of the dressing room and said that those were the worst MOTHERS she had ever been around. I have heard a mother in a dressing room tell her daughter to go ahead and pee (I hope) on the floor because mommy was still trying on clothes (this was at a department store that will remain nameless for its own protection... it rhymes with "Lacy's.").
So, yes, I resent the hell out of underparenting. And I love kids, well, the well-behaved ones, anyway. I tend to blame the "parents." It must be hell on the kids to grow up with now boundaries.

And, Flynne, do those T-shirts come in adult sizes, because I think they may well represent this epidemic.

Hey to those that say hey in ______ (fill in country) they allow kids in bars. It reminds me that in some African countries and Asian too that you can piss on the street. OkOk I will admit that is a over the top comparison almost a logical fallacy. But it still is true. In the west the general attitude is that children are NOT to be in bar.

It is the present attitude the of present ME and X, Y generations that scream to me of why this behavior happens. They are very selfish. Some people just do not get the idea that LIFE changes. Amy has time and time again said her opinion and I agree with her. That when you have a child you, your options change. Before hand if you didn't like you boyfriend you could move on to another. But once you have a child with said boyfriend/husband that changes, you can not skip out and go on to what feels better. You have to subvert your choice to suit your children's choice. But these present young generations are not getting the idea that life changes. Other Life changes are more then having a kid. It means growing up. Yep you may have been able to drink and stay up all night in college but that kind of behavior in the business/work place will get you fired. Yea as a teen you probably would be able to get a light sentence for smoking some dope but as an adult you will get a bigger sentence. Yep LIFE changes. Yet no matter how much you scream and throw a tantrum you can not refuse the change. These child totting barflies are like that 50 year old botox frozen faced Mailbu celebutard that just can not accept that they are not 25 and fresh faced anymore. Stop caving in to these tantrum throwing adults.

Going on, the other thing that I feel really sad and mad about about is how these business get held hostage but these mom activists and lactavists and other activists. I feel that a business owner should be able to set the rules of his business he just has to accept the consequences of his or her actions. If they want to make a black only hip hop club - good. A Korean only Korean restaurant, whatever! God it will be almost that bars will have to have bouncers for the day time too.

This reminds me a little about a situation that happened in Australia. A few gay bars that where located in popular Nightspot areas where asking for permission to block non gays and WOMEN from entering the bar. I mean some guy is looking for a good night of dancing or relaxing with some like minded gyas, maybe a hookup and along comes a group of women on a Hen's night (Bachelorette party) who proceed to ruin the mood with drunk behavior and the attitude that the gay men would love to hang out with some straight woman. Some of the bars where given a special dispensation to be discriminatory. I mean the bars should not have to ask for permission it is just common sense that a gay bar will be for gays.

Whenever we discuss this issue, I always feel like there's such a disconnect between those of us who are parents and the parents we hear being described. Who are these people?

And, it occurs to me, that good parents hang out with other good parents. Bad parents must hang out with other bad parents.

The kind of selfish, hipster parents being described here are foreign to many of us who aren't living in urban areas. I'm surrounding by hispanic families, and they are heavy into discipline. Not that their kids are perfect, but they generally keep them in line, and they wouldn't dream of taking them to bars. The "mommy and me" groups I attended all took place at the park or at church. We never considered taking over a restaurant with our active toddlers.

This must be some new parenting philosophy of those who consider themselves too "cool" to adhere to traditional discipline and responsibility.

I would like to say one thing about breastfeeding. There is absolutely no reason a mom can't breastfeed discreetly anywhere. Even when I was a new mom, 20 years ago, there were shirts and bras designed for discreet breastfeeding. The shirts have slits in them, so a mom doesn't need to lift them up, or show any breast at all. No one can usually even tell whether you're just holding your baby or breastfeeding. And breastfeeding is usually the best way to keep an infant quiet in a public place, like a restaurant.

Everyone is feeling so oppressed these days that I have to wonder if that false sense of victimhood is part of it. You know, black people weren't allowed in white bars a hundred years ago, so this is JUST LIKE THAT. /sarcasm.

Yep it is so ironic MonicaP. the screams of "I AM A VICTIM". I teach English in Korea and the majority of the ESL teachers here a young middle class white Americans and Canadians. Once in a while some White guy gets refused entry in a nightclub or Taxi driver refuses to pick up. These sheltered kids then scream later on RACISM and compare themselves to Blacks in the South. I role my eyes at those people. It is not even close.... You want racism here try being a Nigerian or a South East Asian in Korea. Those people suffer!

Getting refused entry into a club or being asked to not bring your kid in to a bar is NOT equal to the indignities of Blacks under Apartheid or Jim Crowe Laws.

***And, it occurs to me, that good parents hang out with other good parents. Bad parents must hang out with other bad parents. ***

This, exactly. If you are a good parent, you're going to be quickly annoyed by the bad parents. I mean, if you paid for a babysitter so you could go out to the bar for the evening only to see some crappy parents letting their kids run and shriek all over the bar, aren't you going to be royally pissed off? I know I would be.

And, like Amy, I'm not anti-child, but I AM anti-crappy parent. You can't blame kids - if they can get away with it, they will. That's the parents fault. The entitlement attitude you get from some of these people is remarkable - if you dare look at them like they should do something about their kids' behavior, you get nothing but attitude in return.

The only bright spot in all that is that I can go home safe in the knowledge that as soon as those kids become tweens, the parents are going to get theirs.

"The only bright spot in all that is that I can go home safe in the knowledge that as soon as those kids become tweens, the parents are going to get theirs."

Ah, if only it consistently worked out that way. I know some kids who were holy terrors when they were that age, with lax parents, and they are now great, poised, accomplished kids as tweens and teens. I also know parents who did everything right and their kids are on drugs.

In fact, I'm dealing with the drug issue myself now, as almost all my daughter's friends are smoking pot and some are on harder substances. Unfortunately, it crosses the boundary of good parent/bad parent. I cannot believe some of the kids that I would never expect to be on drugs who are, and I've known the parents for years, and all we can do is band together.

In fact, I just had to call a very nice couple, who I know to be really good parents, to tell them their 15 yr old daughter came to my house stoned. They appreciated the call, just as I would (will).

I guess that's why I'm often sensitive to people being too quick to judge parents based on their kids behavior. I'm not an apologist for bad parents, but ultimately, good parenting doesn't always equal good kids, or bad parenting equal bad kids. So much of their development gets influenced by peers, teachers, media, and their own personalities.

Good parenting certainly helps, but it's just one ingredient in the whole recipe.

And yet again, Lovelysoul wants to be as nice as possible to adults who drop the ball. It's like a contra-pantomine of decency....

PS --

> I'm not an apologist for bad parents, but

Yes you are, at every opportunity. It's your schtick, it's your deepest reflex.

I'm only saying bad parents don't always produce bad kids, Crid. They don't. It's simplistic thinking. Bad parents = bad kids. Good parents = good kids.

But, of course, you don't have any kids, or much life experience that you're willing to share, so your shtick is to be crabby and judgmental over everyone else's life while safely avoiding any scrutiny of your own.

Yes, I'm more tolerant and forgiving and understanding of other parents because I've walked in their shoes at times. I've been there. I've lived enough to see that people who are swift to judge are usually those who must always be right and, in order to always be right, they must stay in a tight little box where they don't take any risks. No risks, no mistakes, no criticism.

Parenting a child is a risk. It takes guts and humility because you'll be wrong more often than you're right. You'll make mistakes and be at the mercy of other people's judgements of you and your child...who you'll love, and fear for, and rejoice in, and cry over.

And, all that, believe it or not, Crid, helps one develop EMPATHY. I'm not sure you've ever felt that, but you should try. It's not a bad thing.

> I'm only saying bad parents don't
> always produce bad kids

It's a silly thing to say. I can't imagine a sillier rhetorical tack. Drunk drivers don't always wipe out school buses full of the mentally retarded on the way back from summer camp... So what? Should we be as forgiving as possible? If a guy only maims the kids with broken bones because there's no fire to kill them, should we be more patient with him?

> helps one develop EMPATHY. I'm not
> sure you've ever felt that,

It comes up here year after year: When people argue for the supremacy of feeling in human affairs, the feelings with which they're concerned are always, always their own.

What you're describing is not empathy; it is, in fact, a bad thing.

I forgot to build in some convenient overkill.

To go with the school bus ... http://www.theonion(dot)com/content/node/38942

Crid, I was responding to Ann who said at least she could rest easy knowing "as soon as those kids become tweens, the parents are going to get theirs."

And that is just not, in my observations of 20 yrs as a parent and child-advocate, true. Even some parents who are abusive and neglecful or on drugs somehow - by luck, or divine intervention, or good genes or whatever - have kids that actually turn out very well.

I'm not saying we should applaud them. Not at all. But there really isn't some type of "parenting karma". It doesn't work like that.

Anyone who has ever observed a large family can see that, even with the best parents, there's usually some kids who turn out well and one or two on drugs or in prison. Same parents. Same upbringing. Same parenting.

If this was science, you'd see there's no direct and absolute correlation between parenting and outcome. Too many other factors can intervene.

As for empathy, that seems like a totally lame excuse for not showing any. I guess if you act selfish and judgemental that means you're a really caring empathetic person? Gee, that's the kind of self-serving twist a sociopath might come up with.

That's one of the best Onions ever.

> as a parent and child-advocate

Oh, that's frogwash.

LS, why get out of bed in the morning? Whatever's going to happen will happen, right? No point in punishing drunk drivers... Some of them will kill, some of 'em won't... And you can prove that statistically... With "science"!: Every day in the United States, there are drunk drivers whose don't kill. So let's all just all stop being such big, judgmental meanies! No reason to ask people to do well.

"child-advocate".

"judgmental".

What the hell does this have to do with drunk driving? You make nonsensical arguments, Crid, just because you're cranky. I was responding to Ann - get that?

And I think I can rightfully call myself a "child advocate". I was a GAL for almost 20 years. I founded and chaired a charity guild specifically to raise money for the needs of those foster children, such as braces and tap shoes and senior prom photos - things that weren't being covered by the state because I saw a need. That charity is still active today. I've also worked tirelessly to raise money for our local children's shelter, which takes in children who have been abused and neglected until they can be placed in foster care or adopted.

But, you know, when I speak of empathy, I'm only thinking of myself. I know nothing at all about it.

You never mention anything that you do for the good of mankind. Not one thing. Yet, you scoff at people like me who at least DO SOMETHING beside bitch. If this is your main contribution to the world, Crid, it is pretty damn sad.

It'll be ok Crid. You moment of Zen ...

http://www.celebuzz(dot)com/first-look-photos-g150701/

> I was responding to Ann

You were speaking to us all, and in the usual context. You always speak to forgive parents; we must never judge. Your reflex, so specifically but reliably invoked, is a wonderment. Why? Why is forgiveness of incompetent parenting so important to this woman?

Megan- Thanks. I know little of the Kardashians, but suspect an hour in their company would be torture. The name first came to us during the OJ debacle, which is not a good sign.

Zen goes here.

Good Lord, I leave for a second...

I'll give you, lovelysoul, that occasionally a kid grows up good in SPITE of it's parents. I'll also give you that the reverse is also occasionally true.

That does NOT excuse crappy parenting, however. And no, I'm NOT going to cut them any slack. If your kid is being a brat in a public place that is not Chuck E Cheese, TAKE IT OUT. And I'm sorry, but WTF happened to the idea that there were kid places and adult places? Why are people entitled to do exactly what they want, just because they want to? You speak of empathy, well, that cuts two ways - these entitlement-minded parents have NO empathy for anyone and NO concern for anyone but themselves.

I don't go to Chuck E Cheese and tell the kids to sit down and shut up, so don't bring kids to my bar and tell me I can't swear.

"Why is forgiveness of incompetent parenting so important to this woman?"

Partly because it was my job, as a GAL, to try to find some positive aspects to these human beings and some hope for the children's outcome, despite their less-than-ideal parenting situation. I could not just write them off as future delinquents and the parents as hopeless losers. THAT would've made me unable to get out of bed every morning.

I had to believe - then as now - that it wasn't inevitable that the kids would turn out "bad". And I had to believe - then as now - that their parents, who would likely regain custody in most cases, could find better ways to parent if only someone cared enough to help them, not just condemn them. I had to believe in the ability of people to do better than their worst moments.

Luckily, this was true in many cases. The parents matured, learned better skills, and the kids actually thrived. And we're talking about parents whose offenses were MUCH worse than letting their kids run wild in a restaurant.

So, if I don't get all hyped up and full of self-righteous condemnation over a kid misbehaving in a restaurant, as you and some others do, it doesn't mean I think it's great. But, to me, it's still not the worst thing a parent can do and certainly not an irredeemable situation.

Improperly supervised children in restaurants are unfortunate and annoying, and I agree the parents should be doing a better job. I totally agree they should not take their kids into bars. I said that several times in this thread.

Yet, having seen much worse parenting be overcome and kids turn out well, I just can't get into the whole, "this is the most terrible, selfish parent ever, and these kids will turn out to be brats!" laments.

I guess it's all relative, so if you really want to understand where I'm coming from, maybe that context helps.

> try to find some positive aspects
> to these human beings and some hope

I'm not interested in judging them in some grander context. I'm interested in judging them in the one in which they offend. And "hope" is a contender for the most abused word of a young century.

> I had to believe - then as now - that
> it wasn't inevitable

Same with me and the drunk drivers... Capiche? I have to believe that some of them won't crash into school buses, or I'd just curl up and cry!

> certainly not an irredeemable situation.

So let's get on with the redemptive part, before the kids ruin the dinner entrees or the after-work screwdrivers... Premature forgiveness is not redemption.

> I guess it's all relative

No.

It's not premature forgiveness. I didn't say anything about forgiving them for ruining your meal, or your screwdriver. If you want to be angry, you're entitled.

I'm just asking people to relax and get some perspective. You are seeing one day...usually not even one day, maybe 30 mins of that parent and child. Maybe they are the worst parent ever, or maybe you're just seeing a really bad day or moment. Most of us would hate to be judged on one day or moment of our whole lives, parenting or not. It's not like none of us have ever annoyed someone else. We all get distracted, or behave thoughtlessly at times.

You can be pissed over the annoyance, but it's a bit premature to predict that the child will turn out badly or that the parent is a selfish failure. I just think everyone shoud refrain from going THAT far.

Most of us would hate to be judged on one day or moment of our whole lives....

But all of us are. Every day.

And we do it to the rest of the world, too.

When someone comes to your door, you don't know if he's a good person or a serial killer. One look through the peephole and you make up your mind whether to open the door or to pretend no one's home.

Going on a date, we size up and form quick impressions of the other person that help us decide whether to answer that fake call or ignore it and enjoy the evening.

> I'm just asking people to relax

Cain't! Snotty kids and snottier parents are getting on our nerves!

> Most of us would hate to be judged

This is not so! I beg to be judged... I ache to be "judged"!

I want to be judged as the best thing that ever happened to this planet, on account of:

1. My electrifying good looks

2. My exemplary character, the distillation of civilization's best

3. My brilliant musical skills

4. The clarity of my expression

5. The sheer, thundering power of my sexual technique

6. My exquisite taste

7. Etc

Listen, seekers, I don't care who you are or what fucking daytime television show you're watching. The next time, and everytime thereafter, that you hear some doorknob chattering about "being judged" or being "judgmental", know that you're being conned. Your capacity for judgment (no matter how weak or how strong) is the best thing about you.

And don't let them tell you they meant something else. They meant what they said! They're asking you to turn off your brain... and you shouldn't do it. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO JUDGE AND BE JUDGED.

Dammit, Conan got there first.

"Your capacity for judgment (no matter how weak or how strong) is the best thing about you."

It's not if you're wrong. If you're way off base. The fact that we all do it sometimes doesn't make us right. I shudder at the arrogance of people who believe their snap judgements of others can't ever be wrong.

I had a young couple come to my door not long ago looking to rent. He was black, with dreadlocks, and she was white. They were both rather poorly dressed. I'm ashamed to say that my first judgement was "trouble!". I almost told them my unit wasn't available. But, just hearing that in my brain made me annoyed at myself. I decided to take a walk and get to know them better.

Turns out they owned a fancy organic restaurant in South Beach, and one in Manhattan. I rented to them and they were excellent tenants and terrific people.

Refraining from judging people too quickly and too harshly doesn't mean your brain is "off". It means it's "on".

> "Your capacity for judgment (no matter how
> weak or how strong) is the best thing
> about you."
>
> It's not if you're wrong

Yes, it is. You might do better next time. It's important to practice.

"It's important to practice."

I've heard no evidence that you practice anything. You present yourself as this sage expert at life, yet the only personal experience I've ever heard you share is about a dive trip you took once.

And I hestitate to even say that for fear of misjudging you, which is obviously who I am. But I suspect you really need to put yourself out there, Crid. I don't think you practice enough compassion.

Naw, I just don't squander it in order to prove things to people.

I don't go to Chuck E Cheese and tell the kids to sit down and shut up, so don't bring kids to my bar and tell me I can't swear.

THIS. EXACTLY this. This is the bottom line. Little children do NOT belong in a bar. Done deal. Get OVER yourselves.

They're asking you to turn off your brain... and you shouldn't do it. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO JUDGE AND BE JUDGED.

And THIS. This is the BEST reason right here and now to chuck all this "politcally correct" bullshit. Because that's exactly what it is. Bullshit.

This whole judging thing...some of it is based on instinct. Is it always right? Probably not. But if I look at someone and get the impression that person is unsavory, I'm going to listen to my instincts, because I'd rather misjudge someone than end up dead in a ditch.

Just sayin'.

Obviously, you don't go into a back alley with someone you don't know.

I didn't mean to get into this silly judgment debate. I don't think children belong in bars. Period. I would be the first to walk over to a parent and tell them they'd sat down in the wrong area. I'd do it nicely, assuming maybe they didn't notice how close they were to the bar, but if they responded like an entitled asshole, I'd have no problem telling them off. I do it all the time. I'm not a pushover.

What bothers me, and perhaps I'm overly sensitive to it, is when people project labels onto the kids and predict bad outcomes. I've worked with a lot of kids from bad backgrounds, and that is often the knee-jerk reaction that people have towards them, and it can be damaging. You can't assume that just because a kid has a rotten parent, they'll turn out rotten.

Quick, what's the opposite of Up

~~~

I'd do it nicely, ... I'd have no problem telling them off. ... ??

assuming maybe ... often the knee-jerk reaction ... can't assume ....... but if they responded like an entitled asshole

but but but ... what if they just broke a crown on a olive pit!

I don't think children belong in bars. Period.

*****Obviously, you don't go into a back alley with someone you don't know.*****

Well, yeah. But it's also generally quite easy to tell the difference between a) a parent who's having a bad day and b) a parent who is blatantly ignoring their kid and expecting the village to not only find it cute, but to do their job for them. It's not really being judgmental, it's being observant.

And, call it what you want, but most of the time kids with crappy parents grow up to be crappy adults. Learn by example and all, yanno. If that makes me a judgmental bitch, so be it. I'm just working with what I've learned from 43 years of personal experience.

I don't know what your 43 years of experience entails, but I've had 20 years dealing directly with kids from very bad homes - mostly kids removed from their homes because they were so bad, not just because their parents let them run around a restaurant. Still, I've seen them go off to good colleges, get degrees, raise families, and become productive citizens.

Like I said before, look at any large family, even with great parents. You'll have one or two kids that still turn out badly. Good parents don't always get good kids and crappy parents don't always get bad ones. That's just not true, as much as it would be neat and simplistic if it were.

In fact, I've seen a lot of kids do well in a purposeful effort to rise above their unfortunate backgrounds because they really appreciate and understand that they don't want to end up living like their parents, whereas many kids from advantaged backgrounds take all their opportunities for granted and don't try very hard to succeed.

That is not to say that it's ok for parents to take kids to bars or let them annoy people! That doesn't negate the anger you feel at having your meal or bar time infringed upon. Just keep things in perspective.

These parents may be nauseatingly "hip", self-absorbed, and entitled, but they're not on crack, and they're not neglectful (if anything, they're too attentive, but kids rarely suffer from that). You may despise these parents and hope they end up with "bad kids". But, as unfair as it seems, their kids - especially in this chic, urbanite set - are more likely to end up at Harvard than Skid Row.

Yes, and they'll end up at Harvard with the same entitled, self-centered attitude as their parents.

Sometimes...just sometimes... a brat is just a brat.

> I didn't mean to get into this
> silly judgment debate.

Of course you did... You just didn't mean to lose it. But yours is an important bluff to call. A lot of popular stupidities start this way. I remember the first time I heard the "don't judge" thing. It from a fellow seventh-grader in 1972. (It was so dumfounding that I was speechless.) It's been spread, like a cancer, by my own generation, and I'm suitably ashamed. Witless chatter about "labels" started about a year later: I remember seeing it in an episode of TV's "Mash".

I remember one time in particular when some kids ruined a meal. It was just after the divorce, and I was dating this MBA, an accountant for a famous showbiz enterprise. She was a real stunner, with a figure like crackling thunder and exotic everythang... She was about seven different races, five of them beautiful, and the other two playful. She had a head of hair that I'll never forget. No fancy cut or treatment, but this thick, dense, joyous cloud of naturally orderly curls that seemed to shade her whole (womanly) body. This was in the days when women were wearing these little cinch-cables on the back of their dresses to show off their waists... Remember those? We're talking the Arsenio years here....

So everyone said I should take her to the new Santa Monica satellite of a famous L.A. Mexican place, which shall remain nameless. And even though there were plenty of empty tables, I let them seat us too close to the one with kids.

And they were savages, running and shouting and bumping into our stuff. I spoke pretty quickly to the woman who was sitting at the table with them, and she made some vague comments like "Settle down kids...." But they didn't. It's not like she was talking another adult, or reading a book or even on the phone. This was passive-aggressiveness of the purest cane. She was just staring off into the middle distance as her charges ruined the evening for those around her... As if daring us to take care of them for her and relieve her of the chore, or as if just trying to get some attention from other adults.

And I think what's going on here too... Not only in the case of Amy's bar-drinking mamas, but in this very blog thread. This is obviously not about the discomfort caused by misbehaving (or poorly-managed) children:

> is when people project labels onto
> the kids and predict bad outcomes

No one's "projecting" dick. We've already got a bad outcome... The kids are getting on our nerves. At this hour, it might not be their responsibility, so we're going after their parents. Someday, when it is their fault, we'll go after the kids directly.

You seem to think someone's called a midnight ceremony of the Bearded Elders in Black Robes in the Ancient Caves to sit in a circle around the Fire of the Great Spirit and damn these children (or their parents) to eternal suffering. This is not so. We don't care what their lives are going to be like later. It's not of interest to us. We just want the little fuckers to behave in public. (Your arguments that some kids will do well anyway are just inane; if the world is so random, I don't know why you'd bother to participate.)

It didn't work out with that girl anyway, I couldn't keep her attention. It hurt like Hell at the time, 'cause she was supposed to the Rebound Woman. But I remember that during this earthquake, we were having a candlelight dinner under the glass atrium of the Columbia Bar & Grill on Sunset. (The whole patio used to be under a glass curtain.) And I was on my feet, tugging her wrist, saying "We need to move now", and she just kind of sat there and phony-giggled through locked teeth... One got the sense that she wasn't living in the moment.

And the guy she dated next took her for something ten grand, and she already had a wicked mass of credit card debt. In later years, her perfume forgotten, it seemed fate had been provident....

And of course that restaurant was owned by an actor named Wayne Rogers, who used to be on "Mash". So our lesson tonight is that All of Life's a Circle. (Let's all do the "circle" gesture!)

sad times :( my favorite neighbor moved back to LA to film for band of brothers. *sighhh* he'll be back soon enough though!