Get Ready For Government Health Care
Theodore Dalrymple writes at City Journal that government does what government does best -- waste money. An ex-minister named Lord Warner admitted that spending on Britain's National Health Service was up 60 percent, while its output had decreased four percent:
...While the service has taken on 400,000 new staff members--that is to say, one-fifth of all new jobs created in Britain during the period--continuity of medical care has been all but extinguished. Nobody now expects to see the same doctor on successive occasions, in the hospital or anywhere else.
This is what a Canadian commenter all but said the other day. He was all "no biggie" about Canadians not being able to get primary care doctors. He bragged that they could get into clinics so they wouldn't die. But, clearly, they see different doctors each time. Not quite the same as what I have at Kaiser, where my primary care doctor had her nurse call to nag me to come in for a Pap smear and a physical, because I hadn't been in for a while.
Also, very importantly, my doctor knows my history -- very well -- and you often cannot get that in short order from reading somebody's records. Some doctors aren't very good at keeping records, especially, I'd imagine, when they have big patient quotas to fill.
I've been impressed with my care at Kaiser because, while I rarely go to the doctor, when I do, I get whatever time I need to present my concerns; I don't feel rushed. Also, I've gotten a number of tests that aren't standard (like a bone density test, which they normally only give to women in menopause) when I've presented good (family history) reasons for it.
I got into Kaiser in my 20s, because I'm a middle-class newspaper columnist and needed catastrophic care and preventive care that wouldn't skyrocket in price, but that would also be adequate or good care. I chose carefully, and have been paying into the system all those years, and taking almost nothing out of it. So, now, I'm expected to pay for all those people who never paid in, but get some disease at 45? Fair, huh?
Unfortunately, government health care is eventually likely to put private health care out of business (a hidden goal of Obama-care, I believe, getting us on on the government teat) -- after increasing costs and decreasing service.
Dalyrmple continues about the British minister's words:
But his explanation for this state of affairs was superficial and self-exculpating, to say the least: he said that the NHS received more money than it knew what to do with because of managerial inexperience. "It was like giving a starving man foie gras and caviar," he said.As it happens, the NHS knew exactly what to do with the money: give it to its staff, new and old. British doctors, for example, are now the second-highest-paid in the world, though not necessarily the happiest. They have accepted the money on condition that they also accept--as quietly as mice--increasing government interference in their work. When you go to a family doctor in Britain, he is more likely to do what the government thinks he ought to do and will pay him a bonus for doing than what he thinks is right. This is sinister, even when what the government thinks is right happens to be right.
There is a possible explanation other than managerial inexperience for the waste, namely that the waste was intended and desired: indeed, that it was the principal object of the spending. Experience has long shown that further spending by state-monopoly suppliers of services (if services is quite the word I seek) benefits not the consumers but the providers. And they--ever more numerous--naturally vote for their own providers, the politicians. Thus the NHS has become an enormously expensive method of ballot-stuffing. Personally, I would rather have outright electoral fraud. It would be less expensive and slightly more honest.
UK health spending per capita $2815
UK life expectancy at birth 80
US health spending per capita $6719
US life expectancy at birth 78
What was the problem with the NHS again? Too expensive? Not value for money?
John Hughes at March 23, 2010 8:20 AM
Typical misuse of stats. What other factors might go into life expectancy?
I joined a medical provider (an HMO) that is affordable, yet provides quality care. I did this in my 20s, when I was quite healthy, instead of waiting to discover that I have some horrible condition, and then mewling that I can't get a medical provider to provide me with low-cost care at high cost to them.
Amy Alkon at March 23, 2010 8:56 AM
I notice you don't address the fact that the "wasteful" NHS is vastly cheaper than the (previous) US medical system.
What has this got to do with the NHS? You "join" the NHS the moment you're born (or when your plane touches down if you're coming from the US.)John Hughes at March 23, 2010 9:03 AM
The life-expectancy stat is meaningless. See this blog link and comments there for the reason. See especially the comment regarding which births are counted where, and the second-to-last comment.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/life-expectancy-higher-in-us-than-uk-at.html
kishke at March 23, 2010 10:00 AM
People get too wrapped in their doctors. The focal point of your life should be something else other than your health care, diet, drugs you take, psychiatrists etc.
Okay, I will be a number in nationalized health care. I don't care if it costs half as much.
I don't want to hold hands with my doctor; I need run-of-the-mill diagnosis and treatment. In and out is okay with me.
I will say this positive about Kaiser: They pull the plug. And you can't sue them--you agree to binding arbitration when you become a Kaiser enrollee.
So they have developed sensible rules and procedures for pulling the plug --the so-called "death panels." In this way, they do not spend fortunes keeping people alive for another couple days or weeks in ICU.
This is the issue no one wants to talk about, but a large fraction of h/c dollars are eaten by people past their expiration date.
Also, the R-Party wants to keep the Terri Schiavos of the world "alive" forever, as long as the heart-lung machines can keep the cadaver warm. That costs millions per patient.
Talk about intruding between the doctor-patient relationship? The R-Party Congress held a special session, and President Bush cut short a vacation (!!!!!) to try to insert themselves into that doctor-"patient" relationship.
I guess Schiavo's husband, her doctors, the hospital, and State of Florida officials were on in cahoots, trying to murder Schiavo. And they did it.
That's why we need federal control of health care. I mean not. What a minute--what's the argument again?
BOTU at March 23, 2010 10:01 AM
Ah yes, the wonderful NHS.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/man-left-infertile-after-wrong-testicle-removed-at-west-suffolk-hospital-1924127.html
Sio at March 23, 2010 10:01 AM
And here's an excellent NYT article that debunks the life-expectancy argument (as well as other justifications for health-care reform):
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/business/04view.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=business&adxnnlx=1269363752-fLVQBskwwLm69TIXoJtgOQ
kishke at March 23, 2010 10:05 AM
BOTU:
But it's going to cost TWICE AS MUCH you imbecile.
@John Hughes - we all know that the WHO statistics are as useful as tits on a boar hog. Since no two countries use the same definitions for "alive" at birth, anything that purports to compare lifespans is like comparing apples and bricks.
brian at March 23, 2010 10:09 AM
I dunno. Tits on a boar hog might be sexy to a male boar hog. Each to his own.
BOTU at March 23, 2010 10:24 AM
I want Kaiser, too. So I'm moving to Southern California.
Deirdre B. at March 23, 2010 10:26 AM
Bear in mind that the United States is the ONLY remaining developed country without universal healthcare. It's not just the U.K.- Sweden, France, Germany, Italy...can every other developed nation on earth be wrong? I will never understand why the United States will actually cripple it's own productivity by failing to care for its workers' health. Japan and Germany are great examples of countries with strong economies that don't shit where they eat.
Kim at March 23, 2010 10:35 AM
Kim, sweetheart, it's a little thing called the Constitution, we have it, they don't. And there is a damn good reason for it.
That's why all of our ancestors came to this country...because it wasn't like Europe. If you think things are so great there - what's keeping ya?
Our philosophical, scientific, innovative, political, entrepreneurial spirit, freedom to create and live our lives according to our each and every ability without government intrusion - THAT is the difference between us and them. We are the FIRST to do this.
You want to know what our country really stands for and why we chose a DIFFERENT way to govern ourselves - its because every other government model had been tried and failed - over and over. We did something different.
Do yourself a favor...get a library card and just go nuts in the place.
Take a look at our Federalist Papers, our Constitution and Bill of Rights, our founding documents - and look into the intentions of our founding fathers.
And for a real nice taste of our hidden history (because people believe we were founded on "Christian Principles") take a look at something called the Iroquois Confederacy and their system of Governance and how they had established a peaceful government "of the people, for the people and by the people" - Which so HAPPENED to be COMPATIBLE with Christianity.
We are the first and only, sister. Remember that. We don't need to be like anyone else. If you want public health care so bad - why don't YOU move. Leave us out of it.
Feebie at March 23, 2010 10:59 AM
Ah yes, those wonderful examples of ultra-high productivity, Italy and France (where work is rationed). I notice you didn't include Greece, which is probably the European country with the most experience with socialized medicine. Even Germany's productivity doesn't compare with the U.S., and Japan hasn't even been in the ballpark since the '80s.
From the linked article: "Thus the NHS has become an enormously expensive method of ballot-stuffing. Personally, I would rather have outright electoral fraud. It would be less expensive and slightly more honest."
We are seeing this all over the free world -- central government becoming its own biggest constituency. It's probably the ultimate leftist anti-democratic tactic. It is the ultimate in Big Brother. We are being governed by people who read "1984" and saw it not as a cautionary tale, but as an instruction manual.
Cousin Dave at March 23, 2010 11:05 AM
I spent several years in europe.
When I got there it was the hottest summer had in 100 years.
It was a similar temperature over in parts of the U.S.
Lets compare results.
In that summer, you had so few deaths from heat stroke, dehydration, etc. in the U.S. amongst all cross sections of society, that we could count the total almost as easily as taking off our shoes to use our toes as well as our fingers. In short, a handful.
In europe...France suffered over 10,000 dead due to a simple heatwave.
Why?
To few medical staff on hand to handle the people already there, to few facilities for the population at large. Bad enough yet? No? Ok, continue on.
They also had so heavily taxed energy usage that very small numbers of the population even had air conditioners, it was the new class divide, those who could afford AC...and those who died in the heat.
Bad enough yet? NO? Ok.
Because their laws guaranteed lengthy vacations which due to labor laws could not be revoked even in the event of an emergency, badly needed personnel who could have taken care of the dying, were still taking off on vacations at the time, and those already on, either were unable or unwilling to do so, and under no circumstances could be compelled.
So, socialized car in a single relatively short span of time managed to kill 10,000+ people, mostly elderly or other dependent persons.
And that is the sort of system we want to impliment in our country?
Great thinking.
Robert at March 23, 2010 11:10 AM
Yeah, Kim - where are you getting your statistics, your ass?
The US has the highest per-capita productivity in the world. France, on the other hand, has permanent double-digit unemployment.
Tell me again the productivity enhancing virtues of government health care?
The only people who benefit are the UNproductive.
brian at March 23, 2010 11:17 AM
About anything at all? Absolutely. What do they say about low-fat, high-carb diets? That's what our government has been pushing for years, unfortunately.
Since they can all be wrong about something, why not centralized administration of health care?
The fact is, decentralized decision making (capitalism) has improved the lives of billions of people, while centralized decision making (in guises as diverse as Communism and the U.S. Department of Education) has made worse the lives of billions of people. We have to put up with some centralized decision making to avoid being conquered by Canada, but in the long run, concentrating power almost never ends well.
Two universal principles are involved here:
1) everyone has different needs
2) centralized decision makers do not have the ability to optimally meet everyone's needs; they don't have enough information and they are corruptible.
According to the OECD, only Norway and Luxembourg are more productive than the US in terms of GDP per capita. In GDP per hour worked, the Netherlands bumps the US to number four.
Pseudonym at March 23, 2010 11:19 AM
The effing Netherlands beats us on productivity per hour?
Sheesh.
Let's copy them.
You know, health cre is dead as an issue. We have it now, next topic--how can we catch up with the Netherlands? The Netherlands gap. Must have something to do with the nether regions.
BOTU at March 23, 2010 11:28 AM
Why do you think that's bad?
Let's try flushing our health care system down the tubes, and see if that works.
Pseudonym at March 23, 2010 11:39 AM
@Robert: Europe was crippled by the heat wave you mention because it was extraordinarily rare, unlike in the U.S. The same way I'm sure, say, the dutch would have been better prepared for the Katrina flooding. The same way, say, Toronto doesn't shut down when it receives a few inches of snow the way DC did recently. It's all relative.
@Feebie: your ancestors came to this country because they were radical religious zealots that were escaping persecution. The Quakers, Calvinists, etc. founded the U.S. as a safe-haven for religious expression (their own, anyway). Incidentally, all European nations have Constitutions--they are just not necessarily named as such. And didn't the bible say something silly like "the meek shall inherit the earth" and encourage people to care for the sick and poor of the population?
I am not commenting upon the government's ability, or lack thereof, to effectively roll out the healthcare bill. All I'm saying is that it's about time that someone recognized that a person has a basic human right to exist, and that right should include the right to access reasonable, available health care. No one said that the government is going to pay for nose jobs. But if your mother or father becomes ill and passes away, shouldn't your surviving parent be entitled to a reasonable standard of living without declaring bankruptcy? Not everyone had the same start in life, and despite the tenet of "equal opportunity", you'd have to be living in a vacuum to believe that the world works this way.
Sorry you don't want to pay for the old and the sick of the population. I guess you'd better hope that you're not among them one day.
Kim at March 23, 2010 11:59 AM
Umm, Kim, my ancestors came here from Sicily and Argentina - they were escaping socialism. Both countries had so called government run healthcare - and it didn't work. My Sicilian side was left on their own so they used folk medicines and herbal concoctions. My Argentinian side, their health care was rationed and my great grandmother died in a hospital because of lack of nurses to help her when she choked on her own vomit.
I should warn you about making assumptions.
"I am not commenting upon the government's ability, or lack thereof, to effectively roll out the healthcare bill."
And you don't think that is, at least partially important? We are handing over our lives and well being to them, aren't we?
"All I'm saying is that it's about time that someone recognized that a person has a basic human right to exist, and that right should include the right to access reasonable, available health care. "
No one is saying they can't exist - they are saying that we are responsible for our own choices in life. Accessible, yes - reasonable is completely subjective.
What if people choose to buy cars instead of health insurance? That ain't my problem. They have the freedom to thrive without my interference, just as they have the freedom to fail. Besides, no one that walks into an emergency room is denied treatment. If they did not buy insurance or didn't take the appropriate steps to do this - why is this my problem? I have, and I did.... There are exceptions, but that is what charities are for. That is what non-profit hospitals are for (they do a certain amount of free services to secure their non-profit status').
This is black and white thinking on your part. If you believe the ONLY way to fix the health care system to be accessible (heck even reasonable) to all citizens of the US is by putting it in the hands of the government - you may need to read into more of the options out there, and what HASN'T worked for other nations. Keep in mind how large the US population is to the other countries you've mentioned. Also keep in mind our illegal immigration problem.
"But if your mother or father becomes ill and passes away, shouldn't your surviving parent be entitled to a reasonable standard of living without declaring bankruptcy?"
There are people out there that actually take this into account and are responsible to ensure this doesn't happen. They probably live a lot more modestly than those who didn't. Besides, again, that is what families and charities are for.
"Not everyone had the same start in life, and despite the tenet of "equal opportunity", you'd have to be living in a vacuum to believe that the world works this way."
They have plenty of equal opportunities in life, plenty - but they need to choose to explore these for themselves. Hey, I've had my fair shakes at many misfortunes in life that were completely beyond my control, so have many like me - and the day I lay down and say "poor me, I can't do for myself BIG BROTHER needs to provide for me" is the day that I no longer have my freedom. I am a walking dead person.
So you would rather have people dependent on a government than in themselves - who is the bigger monster.
Fair is everyone gets a shoe. Equality, is everyone gets a shoe that FITS. Think about that!
Feebie at March 23, 2010 12:22 PM
"ancestors came to this country because they were radical religious zealots that were escaping persecution."
Also, this is a misconception (being the ONLY reason that is) and it's part of why I think a lot of this can be solved by privatizing the school systems in this country.
More reading for you - The Bank of England and TAXES. Check it out.
This is like when people say the Civil War was to end Slavery. No, it wasn't.
Feebie at March 23, 2010 12:33 PM
In the United States, everybody already has this right. Nobody suggests that anyone should be prevented from buying health care with their own money.
I definitely do not want to pay for the old and the sick. I want to help the poor, which is different.
Pseudonym at March 23, 2010 12:41 PM
"Sorry you don't want to pay for the old and the sick of the population."
That is correct. I do not.
"I guess you'd better hope that you're not among them one day."
Oh I will be. And then I'll do the decent thing and get out of everyone else's way and die, already. It's really irritating to agree with BOTU on something, but for crying out loud. The taxpayers can't afford to spend three million dollars on some old geezer who's never earned that much in his life, just so he can live to be 80 instead of 78. If he's as rich as Donald Trump, he can spend his own money however he wants. But the old people in this country are sucking us dry, thanks to Medicare, and now Medicare just got bigger.
Pirate Jo at March 23, 2010 12:51 PM
"the meek shall inherit the earth"
Also, Kim, this one right here ....it's taken out of context.
I'm paraphrasing, but this means something along the lines of those that do not use their power to MAKE others to submit to their wills, will live in heaven.
Got that. Those that don't FORCE ME TO PAY FOR THEIR OWN CHOICES IN LIFE.
Feebie at March 23, 2010 12:59 PM
Kim,
I think what you're failing to grasp is that the subsidizing of healthcare is what is causing the constant rise in healthcare costs. Ever wonder why prices in healthcare always rise no matter what the economy is doing?
And btw, Toronto can't seem to handle snowstorms, about a decade ago they forced to call in the army ;)
Charles at March 23, 2010 1:10 PM
"But if your mother or father becomes ill and passes away, shouldn't your surviving parent be entitled to a reasonable standard of living without declaring bankruptcy"
Um, no, no one is entitled to a reasonable standard of living off my money but me. Shit happens in life. My husband may die tomorrow, who knows? If he does, I damn sure won't be looking to garnish your wages to pay for our lifestyle. You act like declaring bankruptcy is a bad thing, when the fact is it exists specifically for the sorts of unexpected financial devastations in life that sometimes happen, so you can get out from under insane debt instead of working to pay it the entire rest of your life. THAT'S a safety net, not something to be avoided with other's money.
There are a lot of people in this world who need to grow the fuck up and take responsibility for themselves and their choices.
momof4 at March 23, 2010 1:24 PM
"Sorry you don't want to pay for the old and the sick of the population. I guess you'd better hope that you're not among them one day."
But unless I die in an accident, inevitably someday I will be one of them. Question: who's going to pay for me? My generation and the ones after me will have been milked of our last dimes to pay for the generations ahead of us. There is absolutely no way that either Social Security or Medicare survives until I reach retirement age. The window to save Social Security has closed; it's mathematically impossible at this point. Not even the Chinese have enough money to buy all the T-bills that would be necessary to cover it... and even if they did, how would we pay the interest?
"Europe was crippled by the heat wave you mention because it was extraordinarily rare, unlike in the U.S. The same way I'm sure, say, the dutch would have been better prepared for the Katrina flooding. The same way, say, Toronto doesn't shut down when it receives a few inches of snow the way DC did recently."
I defy you to show me where tens of thousands of people died because of either Katrina or the D.C. snowstorms. Even here in the South, where we stay home from work when we get a couple of inches of snow (and Northerners rightly make fun of us for it), the hospitals manage to keep working! The doctors and nurses don't just say the hell with it, let's go to Florida for three months and leave the patients to freeze to death.
Cousin Dave at March 23, 2010 1:54 PM
Pirate Jo agrees with me? Does that I mean I ahve to make love to a boar with tits?
BOTU at March 23, 2010 4:18 PM
Our society will evolve, adapting the simpler methods of the noble Native Americans, and put our old and infirm out in the snow for the wolves to find.
Or was that the Amish? I always get them mixed up.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 23, 2010 4:53 PM
I think you should try, BOTU, you never know. Your soulmate could have tusks!
Pirate Jo at March 23, 2010 5:30 PM
I understand Texas is getting overrun by wild boars. Do the girl goars have tusks? Or is that a guy thing.
BOTU at March 23, 2010 5:40 PM
They're collared peccaries aka javelinas. No tusks on the girls :) And supposedly pretty tasty.
momof4 at March 23, 2010 5:52 PM
[H]uman beings are spectacularly good at destroying trust-generating institutions. They do this through three creatures: chiefs, thieves, and priests.
Chiefs think, “I’m in charge, I own everything, I’m taking over, I’m going to tell everyone how to do it, and I’m going to confiscate property whenever I feel like it.”
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 23, 2010 8:50 PM
I think the key point here is that this is not a health CARE reform, but a health INSURANCE reform.
Any time you get business and government in the same sentence, a trainwreck is surely in the making.
Once again, I get punished for working my ass off to support myself and get an education so I can get a good job (that luckily has kick-ass health care, which I'll probably lose now) all so some nitwit can sit on his ass, collect a check, and make me pay for the consequences of his years of drinking, smoking and not going to the doctor.
Thank you, US government, for killing the middle class. I might be able to support 3 welfare mothers, but I certainly can't take on the burden you're throwing in my lap now.
Ann at March 23, 2010 9:00 PM
It's not just the U.K.- Sweden, France, Germany, Italy...can every other developed nation on earth be wrong?
You betcha. And if these socialized health systems actually took care of working men and women the way you think they did, then that monstrosity that was just signed into law might actually have been worth considering.
mpetrie98 at March 23, 2010 9:01 PM
But Americans are special. We do everything right no matter what. I'm sure we'll rock this health care business. We are win! Suck it bitches!
Sum d00d at March 23, 2010 10:12 PM
> We are win! Suck it bitches!
If we're so ignoble, why do you live here? Would we miss you if you left, and went someplace where people are better?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 23, 2010 10:35 PM
If we're so ignoble, why do you live here?
We're imperfect, as are all people. I'm here because I was born here, my family is here, my friends are here, my children will be born here, and because I think our system allows us to continue to work toward that whole more perfect union thing. Just because I think we are still failing in some aspects of that doesn't mean I don't think the endeavor isn't worth it.
Would we miss you if you left
Hell yes. I am one badass motherfucker.
Sum d00d at March 23, 2010 10:56 PM
> We're imperfect
Speak for yourself.
> I'm here because I was born here, my family
> is here, my friends are here
Aw c'mon... There was a day –not that long ago– when a courageous ancestor in the D00d clan decided to shuck all that stuff to pursue a more righteous life, so he came here. If you think he was wrong, you too should find that spark of daring in your heart, and move forward. By which I mean away.
> I am one badass motherfucker
B/A M's don't expect other grownups to pay for their healthcare.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 23, 2010 11:03 PM
Speak for yourself.
Fine. I'm imperfect.
Aw c'mon... There was a day –not that long ago
Well before the revolutionary war on both sides of my ancestors. If that counts as "not that long ago".
If you think he was wrong, you too should find that spark of daring in your heart, and move forward. By which I mean away.
You must have missed this, "I think our system allows us to continue to work toward that whole more perfect union thing. Just because I think we are still failing in some aspects of that doesn't mean I don't think the endeavor isn't worth it."
That's why I'm still here, and still trying to win. I got two kids on the way, and I want them to grow up with their cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents in a U.S. that is an improvement upon that which I experienced. And I'm willing to fight for the kind of America I want.
B/A M's don't expect other grownups to pay for their healthcare.
No, they pay for the health care of those who can't do it on their own right now. That's what badass motherfuckers do. They don't whine because they're doing a bit more than some people. That's what bitches do.
Sum d00d at March 23, 2010 11:28 PM
Can we all agree that pricing transparency is good in markets?
Anyone want to call that bad?
Even if it comes from the civilization destroying health care bill?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/transparency_and_the_health-ca.html
Sum d00d at March 23, 2010 11:46 PM
There is no moral credit whatsoever accrued by spending other people's money to do good things. If you were merely inclined to help other people, no one would stop you. Your will to tax and manipulate is about other things, pathetic things.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 24, 2010 12:10 AM
I've done my thinking on this and have decided there is moral credit in a society that protects its weak by making medical care available to them. You've offered nothing to adjust it except your social opprobrium. Which I doesn't really count for much. Repeal it at the next congress or so if you dare, or go for judicial activism. I know the Roberts/Scalia/Thomas/Alito radicals will be delighted to support you; it's Kennedy you need to win. And we'll see. There's no doubt that that justice Kennedy is the most powerful single individual in the U.S., as he stands between the unconstrained corporatist oligarchy supported by the Republicans and the conservative wing of the Supreme Court, and the people-centered liberal wing. So it's all about who counts in the U.S. Support the Roberts wing, and corporations own the U.S. Oppose them, and there is some small chance the people still do. But we already know where you stand.
Sum d00d at March 24, 2010 12:39 AM
There is no moral credit whatsoever accrued by spending other people's money to do good things.
I'm sure that this also means that you oppose using tax dollars to wage meaningless wars of aggression against states such as Iraq, right? Unless you're willing to make the obvious admission that was in no way a good thing; if so, welcome to the sane side of politics.
Or is bombing the citizens of powerless nations and then placing our solidier there so they get killed a lot more valuable to you than making sure that the less fortunate of our your own fucking country can see a doctor without destroying their financial health?
And yet you deign yourself worthy to lecture me about morality.
Pretty much I have to say fuck you. I take care of my own. And then some. Contra your assumptions, I create value in this world. And doing so grants me and mine some freedom.
And I think those of us who have succeeded in doing so are obliged to do something to make things better for those who don't'.
You think we should do whatever the fuck we want and that others should suck eggs.
It's the essence of the only serious Republican fiscal proposal since Reagan. The only person who has been honest about it is Ryan's. His proposal is all about protecting present wealth and shifting risk down the economic ladder. If that's what ya'll want, fine. Let's have that debate. I'm happy to explain why economic mobility in the U.S. has collapsed in the last 30 years or so. Republican, pro-wealth, anti-productivity policies.
The American dream is dying, and it is clearly the fault of the so-called conservatives who drape themselves in the flag. Palin does this really well, even though the flag should never be used as a cape. But what does that bitch know.
Sum d00d at March 24, 2010 1:11 AM
> I'm sure that this also means that you oppose
> using tax dollars to wage meaningless wars of
> aggression against states such as Iraq, right?
I supported the Iraq war; thanks for asking.
> Or is bombing the citizens of powerless nations
First, why the precious word "citizens"? Their are bad people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Calling them "citizens" doesn't make them into the school board members and bank tellers of Schenectady .
> than making sure that the less fortunate of our
> your own fucking country can see a doctor without
> destroying their financial health?
This monstrous legislation does nothing to diminish that. If these services are mispriced, having them managed by a bunch of self-fellating technocrats who so tellingly excuse themselves from their own manipulations will not be the solution. For about three generations, the American brilliance at pricing things has been kept out of health care; with resolution of that irony, there will be no progess. Pretending precious resources cost whatever we want them to, no matter how much they mean to people, is an especially insane response. You are not being kind; you are not being compassionate. If you were, and it really meant this much to you, you'd use your own money.
> I take care of my own. And then some. Contra
> your assumptions, I create value in this world.
I don't believe you. If you did, you'd have a much better idea how this works. You may well, like our feckless President, find a bunch of wealth from other people flowing through your life... But this is not the same thing. (I noticed your word preference for "create value" instead of "create wealth": It's an odor of academic entitlement I recognize from childhood.)
> And doing so grants me and mine
> some freedom.
Your freedom has never been impinged. It's your eagerness to spend the wealth of others on your infantile fantasies of power and your own kindness that's at fault here.
> You think we should do whatever the fuck we
> want and that others should suck eggs.
I think things of tremendous value don't become inexpensive just because it would gladden you're Disney heart if they did.
> But what does that bitch know.
She knows that you're instantly, bitterly enraged by truly empowered women, and that's just for starters.
You're a pissed off little man. This doesn't ennoble your judgment, which is not about the troubled people: This is all about you, and your need to look down on others, and your need to take control. That you are not alone makes this no less transparent and pathetic.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 24, 2010 6:34 AM
WithOUT resolution, etc.. Early, no coffee
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 24, 2010 6:49 AM
You go Crid!
brian at March 24, 2010 7:12 AM
some d00d writes: "Well before the revolutionary war on both sides of my ancestors. "
Oooh, American royalty! No wonder the spectre of Obamacare doesn't bother you. I bow to your obvious moral and intellectual superiority. May I kiss your ring? Then perhaps you will tell us about one of your brunches with the Kennedys?
Cousin Dave at March 24, 2010 7:38 AM
I still feel bad about the withOUT thing. I was late for the shower, thence to this auto dealership for a tune-up. Mistakes happen, people.
The environment is just so target-rich: We are compelled to make so many choices. If we were to rewind this morning's outcome-sequence like an old VHS tape and let 'er rip again, I'd probably take a shot at this–
> bombing the citizens of powerless nations
What's with the "powerless"? These are places where (by warlordism in Afghanistan and abject corruption in Iraq) some sufficiently powerful people have crippled the development and decency of the entire country. And Iraq sits atop the first- or second-finest pool of light, sweet crude in the known universe.... They got all sorts of "power". They got "power" that they literally don't know what to do with. Man-for-man, the monsters in these places have no strength against an American soldier, and this is indisputable: But powerless they are not. Why would they be the ones our new friend would identify with?
How uch of this is really adolescent rage, previously-suppressed impulses of teen rebellion suddenly and inappropriately given authority in the grown-up world? When we see comments beginning with:
> I've done my thinking on this
...We are left to presume that it must be a lot.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 24, 2010 7:51 AM
One more before the day begins in earnest:
> than making sure that the less fortunate
> of our your own fucking country can see a
> doctor without destroying their financial
> health?
One painful truth which liberals don't want to acknowledge –and there are tens of thousands to choose from- is that health care may be so expensive because it's worth it, or at least worth more than they personally would like to pay. (I, personally, think a new Ferrari should cost about seven thousand dollars.) Medicine does things for people that were unimagined magic a generation ago.
The fact that these miracles command us with such intimidation doesn't mean we should pretend they're nothing, nothing at all, mere trinkets to throw on the sidewalk: It means we should each work and serve in order to make sure they will be available to us.
______________________
What's most repugnant about these smug children is the naivete of their ancient, entrenched delusion that they have, through their own personal excellence, countermanded human nature. They've decided everyone's going to be nice 'n cuddly. And they're going to insist....
...Except, again, in in their own cases, as Amy properly notes in a separate item on the blog today.
It's always, always done with other people's money.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 24, 2010 8:15 AM
First, why the precious word "citizens"?
That's what you call the people who reside in other countries?
Their are bad people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes, their (sic) are bad people in those countries, and in others. But you cannot deny that millions of innocent people bore the brunt of our aggression.
Outside of a valid reason to go after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and get Bin Laden, at which we failed miserably due to the ineptitude of our former president, we had no long term business in Afghanistan.
And certainly none in Iraq, whose utter disconnection from the sort of Islamic militant thinking that led to Al Qaeda's attacks on us was apparently lost on you and, unfortunately the morons in charge of our foreign policy at the time.
I don't believe you. If you did, you'd have a much better idea how this works.
Hmmm, let's see. I work for a small media company where one of my duties is mobile product development. An iPhone app I developed should hit 500,000 installs in the next week or so. Currently people are logging upwards of a million hours a month on it. This project cost under $20,000. In addition to adding another distribution channel that has turned out to be rather massive (iPhone users turned out to be more engaged than web users, and we've needed to make various server-side accommodations to avoid performance hiccups), the app has led to some great press, featuring in the app store, and partnerships with heavy hitters like Intel and Nokia. Instead of relaxing with family, I recently spent my holidays on a making sure a new project got completed so that we could get it featured at CES in early January. That was also successful, but the new platform has not taken off in the same ways as the iPhone (no recent platform has, though I'm optimistic for Android). I'm currently working on plans to leverage our iPhone success by building versions of that app that should allow us to effectively target new verticals and open up new monetization opportunities.
That count as knowing how wealth creation works?
pwned.
I think things of tremendous value don't become inexpensive just because it would gladden you're Disney heart if they did.
Who said they become inexpensive? I'm not. Health care is expensive, and our past ways of paying for it are stupid. The current bill, which is not perfect by any means, will cost a lot of money, but it will also cover more or less everyone in the U.S. when everything kicks in. It will also help entrepreneurship by making it easier for people to get affordable insurance without working for a big company. It's a bummer if you think this plan is a bad use of our tax dollars. I disagree.
She knows that you're instantly, bitterly enraged by truly empowered women, and that's just for starters.
Nah, I love them. I'm married to one, and the son of one.
Palin enrages me because she represents what I see as the worst of our country - ignorant and proud of it, parochial, intolerant, bible-thumping - literally drapes herself in the flag (a no-no, if you know how our flag is supposed to be treated), and then has gall to claim people like her to be "real Americans", a definition which is clearly intended to exclude people like me.
Sum d00d at March 24, 2010 9:00 AM
It will also help entrepreneurship by making it easier for people to get affordable insurance without working for a big company.
No, it will harm entrepreneurship by making it much more expensive to start businesses and keep employees. They are dumping a huge part of this new expense on the shoulders of businesses, large and small.
kishke at March 24, 2010 9:49 AM
Kishke,
There is a good discussion - pro and con - about the effects of the bill on entrepreneurship going on at McArdle's blog. Even as stalwart an opponent of the reform bill as she admits it's possible this will have positive effects. Worth a read:
http://www.theatlantic.com/megan-mcardle
Sum d00d at March 24, 2010 11:54 AM
Having read McArdle's bit and some of the comments, I'd say she's lukewarm at best.
Given we already know that compliance costs with other federal regulations have impeded or stunted growth (EEOC and SOX for starters), and we know that eliminating "job lock" did nothing to increase either entrepreneurship or employment in Massachusetts, it doesn't look too good for applying the same thing on a national scale.
Insanity is performing the same set of actions while expecting a different outcome.
brian at March 24, 2010 12:35 PM
Redundant. Like "kitty cat," "puppy dog," "tuna fish," "untapped potential," "rehash," etc.
Patrick at March 24, 2010 7:22 PM
Palin doesn't enrage me. I think someone with her want of brains can be easily duped into thinking that she would make a great vice-President. I blame her handlers most of all. They should have vetted her more carefully, and not let the poor woman embarrass herself before the entire nation.
She was a poor choice, and in not realizing that, they humiliated her publicly.
Patrick at March 24, 2010 7:32 PM
I think someone with her want of brains can be easily duped into thinking that she would make a great vice-President
Perhaps then I should be enraged at those who think she would make a great veep, or a great President, or a new Esther. That anyone takes her seriously as other than a potentially kickass female Glenn Beck reflects very poorly on our nation.
Sum d00d at March 24, 2010 7:45 PM
they humiliated her publicly.
She did a lot of it to herself.
By some accounts, she handily contributed to that experience. From what I've read, she came in knowing nothing and simply didn't try to learn anything. There's been no more earnestly deserved trainwreck than her Couric interview. It's not like Katie Couric is a bulldog journalist pushing tough questions! Palin destroyed herself with her abject failure to answer softballs that any reasonably well informed American could knock out of the park. What news media do you read? It's a trivial question. Unless you simply don't read anything. In which case, you answer "everything". And feign umbrage at the idea that the question is valid.
Her recent performance on Glenn Beck provides ample evidence she still doesn't care about learning. Who was your favorite founding father? "All of them!" She eventually got to Washington, which isn't a bad choice, though not the choice of someone who has thought deeply about the philosophical underpinnings of our government and the current liberal/conservative divide.
As I mentioned elsewhere, though, all of this is irrelevant to the numbskulls who support her. Every time she's proven a fool, or trips up, or is otherwise exposed as a fraud, they take it as part of the conspiracy against her. She's bulletproof, and she knows how to play the media game. Stupid but clever, that's our Sarah. God help us if anyone grants her anything more powerful than her upcoming reality show in which she purports to still be a woman of the people at 1MM+ an episode.
Sum d00d at March 24, 2010 8:01 PM
Yes, I saw her on on Glenn Beck, which is surprising since I never watch the show. Even he didn't buy the "all of them" response.
But no, it wasn't the response of someone who hasn't thought deeply about the issue. It was the response of someone who couldn't name the Founding Fathers and settled upon the safest guess she could think of. Washington is a good choice if you don't know who the various Founding Fathers are, you have to pick one. And you might need to prepare for a really hardball follow-up question...like "Why?"
Personally, I would have chosen Franklin. Truly, a Renaissance Man of the age.
Patrick at March 25, 2010 1:29 AM
"Every time she's proven a fool, or trips up, or is otherwise exposed as a fraud, they take it as part of the conspiracy against her."
Hmm, let's exchange she for he, and that's a perfect summation of Obama. And his supporters.
momof4 at March 25, 2010 7:28 PM
Except Obama actually knows shit and doesn't routinely spout nonsense. And before you mention that silly TelePrompTer meme, watch the videos of him talking to Republican congressmen, in detail, off the top of his head.
Sum d00d at March 26, 2010 1:50 PM
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