Queenan has good moments. But this is just a weird thing to say:

Then they will enter a labor force that neither wants nor needs them.

And I'm all like, how exactly does he think an economy works? How does he think a species works?

Do people really think the the economy is this thoughtful, forward-looking organism that reaches out lovingly, needfully, to bring purpose, meaning and succor to the unemployed?

No. You have to figure out how to be useful to other people. If you figure it out well, you'll make more money. But in the meantime, you're going to bust your ass, because nobody loves you enough to even feed you if you're not useful. Why should they?

A favorite wisecrack: One of the greatest ironies of the human tongue is that "entrepreneur" is a French word.

Specifically —

> Economists theorize that this may be that
> very rarest of things--a generation that does
> not do as well financially as the generation
> that spawned it.

It ain't "economists" who theorize such things, it's street folk in a bad mood. Few economists with more than a decade's (or a continent's) perspective would argue that this was "that very rarest of things", nor would they presume America to be host of such a nightmare.

> There are no jobs, and the jobs that do exist
> aren't the kinds anyone in his right mind
> would have spent $100,000 to $200,000
> to land.

So what? Is anyone arguing that kids have the right to spend as much as they want on education without (again) figuring out how to be of service to others?

> nothing in most middle-class kids' lives has
> prepared them emotionally for the world they
> are about to enter

Ah yes, Mr. Queenan, the bourgeoisie are so narrow-minded... But even if this were true, a failure of "emotional preparation" is hardly a policy failure worth worrying about in this context. As a rule, people's feelings take care of themselves. The Great Depression was not a failure of "emotional preparation".

> the legacy costs that society has imposed
> on young people will be a millstone around
> their necks for decades.

I blame Barack Obama, who spent ten trillion in his first year... On nuthin'.

"Who's going to support Baby Boomers as they suck the Social Security System dry while wheezing around Tuscany?"

LOL. My mum and stepdad are in fact in Tuscany right at this moment. They do love their Elderhostel tours. However; neither of them ever worked in the public sector, and have saved not only for their retirement, but for private insurance. Mom had breast cancer over 20 years ago, so insurance is tricky for her.

As to the college issue- trade schools are the new en vogue, eh? My ADN (Associates' Degree of Nursing) will cost $9000 in all (base cost is $6k, another $3k for the prerequisites). Tuition, uniforms, books, malpractice insurance, etc. Guess how much I'll be making when I get out? Don't let your kids do something utterly moronic like getting a degree in something unmarketable. Drama? Puhleeeze. Have any idea how much an auto mechanic makes? Grease monkeys may have dirty nails but they can pay their bills.

Check this out....

http://www.garynorth.com/public/department89.cfm

"Economists theorize that this may be that very rarest of things--a generation that does not do as well financially as the generation that spawned it."

Except that the same is true for Generation X. I knew this stuff sounded familiar. That's because I heard it twenty years ago.

Queenan's point might have been more strongly made if he hadn't chosen as his anecdote a young man who spent $200,000 on a drama and music degree. Our economy never has need for large numbers of people in those fields. Even worse, success in those areas is largely uncorrelated with Ivy League degrees (what university did Lady Gaga attend?).

If anyone is to blame (if blame need be made), I would look to the parents, who have lovingly sheltered their children from the realities of the world and taught them little about where the money to support their comfortable childhoods comes from. I have this discussion with a colleague regularly (we are both science faculty at a large state university): are we getting old and crotchety or are college kids these days less motivated, more sheltered, less mature? The answer, of course, it "both."

By the way, I graduated with a bachelor's in electrical engineering and no debt. How? I went to a state school and majored in a field that has scholarship funding (which it has because society needs more engineers than they need actors).

"Three, the legacy costs that society has imposed on young people will be a millstone around their necks for decades."

And whose idea was it that going into debt was a risk for other people?

If you buy a house in NOL's Ninth Ward, if you sign a loan application for an English degree or a house or a new car, there's NOBODY ELSE's name on that contract.

Gee, it's like arguing with the Politburo about a Five Year Plan. What ought to happen is an opinion. What really happens is life - and since that's the part that's real, you better watch out when you sign your name!

Re-reading Queenan's piece, I realize I'm not so much arguing with him as agreeing with him on the character of today's youth. I'm not sure either the parents or children have learned many lessons yet, though: he says his son is going to law school because the real world held no advancement opportunities. Unfortunately, it sounds like his son will be adding up more debt and will still be underemployed at the end of it.

If you look at the labor and economic statistics from the early 1980s, you can easily see that this same situation has happened before. And because of high interest rates and inflation, it could be argued that it was even worse then. For those of us who graduated into that economy, it was just as difficult. Similar things were written then.

Here's what happened: We woke up, gradually found our way, did what we had to (which for many meant working at jobs that were basic but paid the bills), and we got through it. I write this not in a competitive sense, or to promote comparative suffering, but simply to point out that the article above sketches out a broad hyperbole (since the Depression?). Ultimately, the experience was good for those of us who had it--and rewarded a swath of our generation with the gift of pragmatism and realistic expectations. We grew up fast and grew strong for good.

Further, unlike the university experience we paid for just previous to our entry into the world then (where money is--how surprising--indeed a force to be reckoned with), the clarifying and ultimately useful experience of clawing our way up and out was entirely free, at least in economic terms.

"Even worse, success in those areas is largely uncorrelated with Ivy League degrees (what university did Lady Gaga attend?)."

Your larger point is a fair one, but Lady Gaga is probably a poor example to use: she went to the Tisch School of the Arts at NYU. NYU may not be an Ivy, but it's expensive and quite selective, particularly the Tisch program. She did, however, withdraw after two years to go straight into the music industry.

As Astra said, part of the problem here is studying drama and music. For most people, these are hobbies. Spending $200k on an education in these fields is just idiotic. If you're the next Mozart, you'll get a scholarship - otherwise you ought to get a real education. Idiotic parents, overly sheltered child.

Second, the good questions posed in the article:

Who's going to pay for the health care bill? Gen Y. Who's going to pay off the federal deficit? Gen Y. Who's going to fund all those cops' and teachers' and firemen's pensions? Gen Y. Who's going to support Baby Boomers as they suck the Social Security System dry while wheezing around Tuscany? Gen Y."

At some point, the answer will be "no one". The government can afford this massive debt at the moment, because interest rates are so low. They will rise, and when they do, many governments are going to default. Declare bankruptcy. And no one will be paying those pensions, etc...

"Spending $200k on an education in these fields is just idiotic." No it isn't, I want that damn barista to recite Shakespeare when they get my coffee.

All funny aside it's really a question of what you want to do. You can go to law school and even med school with a liberal arts degree, acting counts. You can do both with a much lower GPA from engineering and science. If you plan on going to either of these you might as well enjoy you first four because the next 3-10 will really really suck. However if you then choose not to continue your education you are hosed.

Also, what Pirate Jo said—

> That's because I heard it twenty years ago.

We've been hearing that about Peak Oil, too. The world is always going to Hell. We're doomed, I tell ya.... DOOMED! We're all gonna die!

When I entered college, I thought about getting a degree in history. My parents urged me to switch to something that would make me employable. I did.

In the latest survey, historians are one of the lowest demanded and paid professional positions in America. I still love to read and discuss history. But I do it on my own dime.

In the latest survey, historians are one of the lowest demanded and paid professional positions in America. I still love to read and discuss history. But I do it on my own dime.

Back in the 80s, when I went to the University of Maryland, I was friends with a history major. He apparently didn't do too well at it, and was kicked out of college in 1990 (he started in 1984). Shortly afterward, I saw him working at McDonalds.

Could his problems be because he spent $200,000 to study drama and music?

And not something that will get him a job that will pay back $200,000?

Exactly what DID this young man think he was going to do after graduating?

In this young man's defense, most likely he was met with the same thing I was, which was all his advisors, parents, and counselors saying "No one cares what the degree is in, what matters is that you get a degree!"

I'm from "Gen Y", and I can tell you growing up that EVERYONE in my life said "go to college or you'll be working at McDonalds". No one, save my mother, said anything about what you should get your degree IN. It was a "do whatever your heart desires" spiel, so long as you went to college and got the degree. If you had a degree, the Magic Job Fairy would come down out of the sky and hand you a career.

Towards the end of college, I started seeing the career counselors. They had no real advice for me. One said get an internship at a newspaper to be a journalist (even after I told her I wasn't interested) and the other gave me a book called "Great Careers for English Majors", which outlined doing things like novel writing, screen plays, editing, and other unattainable jobs. Not one suggested librarianship (my chosen career, despite the fact that I just got told yesterday that we're handing out demotions to make ends meet for next years budget...), not one had any real advice at all. I've come to believe that career counselors are paid to inebriate college kids on their own hopes and dreams.

As for the commenters saying that kids today are less motivated, more sheltered, and less mature.... You're right. I am one of the few of my friends my age who has steady employment. I'm the rare one who doesn't still need weekly money injections from my parents. I have a career, albeit not one with much advancement opportunities and which is quickly going the way of the dinosaur. Most of my friends are now entering their mid-to-late twenties, and still living like their in their college heyday. We were told that we were special, that our parents lived for us, and that if we just followed our dreams, it would all turn out aces. No one mentioned hard work, practicality, or the fact that sometimes your dreams are stupid and unlikely. I fear for the next generation, who are receiving even more coddling.

"If you look at the labor and economic statistics from the early 1980s, you can easily see that this same situation has happened before. ... For those of us who graduated into that economy, it was just as difficult. Similar things were written then." [Jim]
I'd love to read a study on Gen X and the economic downturn. Near as I can tell from news reports and daytime television, they seem to be the age group that's the most out-of-work right now. I've wondered if the gloom-and-doom forecast of that graduating group hasn't come at least a little to fruition in that many seem to be the ones let go from jobs. I know my brother (much older than I) and his friends all seem to be struggling, but for different reasons - some are still paying for divorces and child support, others have yet to find a career and just float from job to job, and one or two are finding their careers are being outmoded. It'd be cool to read some actual facts on that stuff.

Cornerdemon I strongly recommend a book by Strauss and Howe called the 13th generation. About my generation x.

Actually anything by them. Millenials rising is the latest but the one before it The Fourth Turning is very interesting and relevant today.

I've come to believe that career counselors are paid to inebriate college kids on their own hopes and dreams.

I was also an English major. And I couldn't agree more. My first job out of college was in publishing (and it took me 3 months to get it). I hated it. Every day. But I used it to get myself on my feet financially. My sister graduated from the same school as I did and basically has been operating under the assumption that she "should" get to do what she "loves." My parents have been subsidizing this (her lifestyle currently resembles what most would consider a vacation).

I kept the full-time job and then got a part time job in a field I love, working nights and weekends. I applied to grad school, and a one of them was impressed enough to give me a scholarship. I quit both jobs and have spent a year studying what I love and working my ass off (nearly fulltime work hours, full-time student) in a cool city. My savings took a hit, but I'll have no debt. I am very lucky.

I'm now about to graduate (again), and, although I have all sorts of shiny new skills, I'm in a tough field. If I have to go back to doing a job I hate to get by, it'll suck. But getting to do what you love isn't a right--and a lot of people in my generation don't realize this.

...at the same time though, I feel for this kid. He's graduated from an amazing school and expectations are high. And now, everyone and their mom is asking him if he has a job, and he probably feels ashamed to tell them he doesn't.

I went through that when I finished undergrad (see my post above). And it's starting to happen again now that I'm almost done with gradschool. Everyone has advice for me and, most of it's useless because they don't know anything about my field. It's annoying.

I have vowed that I will NEVER EVER EVER ask a soon-to-be-grad the following things:

**"So, do you have a job yet?" (This soon-to-be-grad has already been asked this 423902 times today. Constantly having to answer 'no' is really demoralizing and stressful.)

**"What are you planning on doing after you graduate?" ('I don't know' doesn't seem like a good enough answer. But often it's the only answer when you're constantly applying for ANYTHING you're qualified for).

**Anything that begins with, "Have you considered...". (um, I know my potential field better than you because, well, I've been studying it for the past few years and have gotten advice from people 10x more qualified than you. Unless you are IN my field or know someone I could contact for advice/a job opening, your advice is probably useless. And then I have to tell you, 'Why yes, I HAVE considered that.' And then you'll reply with 'Well, have you considered [insert another inane suggestion here].' The other day, a well-meaning relative asked me, a student in Journalism, if I had considered being an "editor" instead of "a person who writes stories." *headdesk*

At loss for words for the recent grad? How about, "Congratulations! And good luck. I know it's a tough time."

uhhhh.... didn't most of these nincompoops vote for Hopey-Changey?

Let the re-education begin!

Cornerdemon, you wrote: "I'd love to read a study on Gen X and the economic downturn. Near as I can tell from news reports and daytime television, they seem to be the age group that's the most out-of-work right now."

They aren't. Not to be too much of a statistics freak, but the demographics are easily gotten--and can be considered pretty reliable. The hardest hit by the downtown are the least educated and the youngest. While it seems contrary to the topic of the article that served as the catalyst for this discussion, a college degree is a reliable indicator of continued employment. The worst off in times like these are those who forfeit a high school degree.

So while there could be an endless debate about the utility of degrees in arts and other fields with no clear connection to immediately-valued skills and knowledge, a degree in anything is useful in most cases. College teaches more than simple course content. The nearly inevitable socialization involved in attending a school teaches socio-economic class markers and gives clues to accepted behavior that then allow us to join a kind of socio-economic tribe. Like it or not, credentials are important. You don't need to buy an Ivy experience to do this though. As with any purchase, you have to take a measure of what you can afford. And to take the vocational-technical route certainly makes more sense than a study of an art.

My original point (perhaps not well-expressed) was that this somewhat distressing situation has happened before, and fairly recently. My own observations about the effect on those of us who faced the last profound recession as recent graduates (and true, they are anecdotal at best) is that a little hardship was a darned good life-lesson for us. It--as it's said--builds character. It doesn't feel too good while it's going on, but the payoff in clear thinking, uncluttered by foolish dreams, will be worth it in the long run. And again, that part of life didn’t need to be bought, and perhaps taught far more than the time at college did.

I've been wondering lately, will the Education Bubble burst like the housing one did? Will employers start to figure out that many of the jobs generally filled by college grads don't really require a college education to do? Is that already happening?

Queenan's observations don't necessarily jibe with my experiences as a college student. I'm in the business school at a large state university, and almost all the graduating seniors that I've talked to have jobs--and at companies like Goldman-Sachs, Ernst&Young, PriceCooperWaterhouse, etc. Many of them will probably be making more than my parents in a couple years. For myself, finding a summer internship was pretty hard, but after searching for 3 months and applying to almost 50 places, I landed an awesome internship making $13/hr plus commission, with the option of continuing throughout the school year and possibly full-time after graduation. And yes I know people without internships or even basic summer jobs like waiting tables, but most of them didn't put much effort into the job search. So I think there are jobs out there for qualified college students/graduates as long as you are willing to put in the time, put yourself out there, and learn how to network and market yourself. Maybe schools need to do a better job teaching students these skills.

I do agree that a huge problem lies in high schools and parents encouraging their kids to "do what makes them happy" instead of thinking about what's marketable. On the other hand, I know people (usually foreign or non-white) whose parents are on the opposite extreme and are convinced that doctors and lawyers are the only worthwhile professions out there, and that approach doesn't make sense either. Bottom line is that you need to pick a major that has job potential, that you're good at, and that you like-in that order. My younger sister is about to start college and she's majoring in English because she's good at it. Well sure, she's had 12 years of mandatory English classes, but she's never had the opportunity to find out if she's good at business or economics or computer science or engineering, etc. High schools need to do a better job of exposing students to classes that have major and career potential.

You might be right Jim.

To some degree I'm sure you are.

BUT.

I have to wonder:

How much of the part about "the hardest hit being the least educated"

Is related to the significant numbers of under educated people, who are uneducated because of their own character flaws, personal failings, and lack of drive.

Did you know anyone who dropped out for a stupid reason?

I knew a few in high school that never finished because they didn't develop the personal attributes needed to work at much of anything.

Those people, in GREAT economic times, will still pay the bills because there is a labor shortage, even squeeky wheels get to roll in those times.

BUT

In bad ones, when people who do great work are plentiful, the people who do piss poor work get dropped like a bag of burning shit.

-------------------------

I DO understand that this does not describe all the undereducated.

Some people just draw the short straw, they have serious mental problems, they took jobs early on to take care of families, parents, or whatnot, rather than take care of themselves, they make sacrifices and so on and so forth.

There are good and honest undereducated and uneducated people who the world, parents, schools, families, and so on and so forth failed.

In my experience however, it was the rare person who left school to work to take care of a sick relation rather than go to school, compared to the lazy, entitled, and bored, who did so.

I do not feel bad for the failures of the character defective.

I feel no obligation to provide for them.

I work a full time job as a deployed soldier, I have gone to school consistently for years in pursuit of a degree. I scrimp and save to invest wisely, I do not spend frivolously. I take on side jobs when possible as a tutor in subjects I've done well in (which is all of them so far) and have even taken time to write and sell the occasional story, whatever it takes to provide everything my family needs.

Devil take the whiners, including that ignorant brat that spent $200,000 to study drama and music.

His parents failed him.
His school failed him.
His creditors (assuming he got these as loans) decieved him.
But above all, he failed himself.

He didn't ask the most obvious question in the world:

What next?
What job will I do?

He SHOULD have had people asking him these questions before he left high school, but he should have been asking them himself also, instead of holding pie in the sky dreams.

-------------------------------------------

Like Rudyard Kipling said in his famous poem "IF"

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;

I won't waste your time with the rest of it, grand though it is, you can find it online, suffice it to say it ends with these words:

"Yours is the Earth, and everything thats in it,
and, which is more, you'll be a man my son."

The next generation I think, is short of men.

"Even worse, success in those areas is largely uncorrelated with Ivy League degrees (what university did Lady Gaga attend?)."

Wow. That's not a meaningful example. Out of 350+ million English-speaking people poised to take advantage of the market, fewer than 100 solo artists reach that level of notoriety, perhaps in a decade. Alice Cooper is impressed, and he's not easy.

I know of auto mechanics with big houses and fancy cars. Exactly as with other jobs, though, they know that wealth is not generated by an hourly wage - and where to put themselves to be of use, and therefore be paid.

There is degree pressure today merely because so many with no skills whatsoever graduate from public school. Fix that, and fix the idea that debt is something you should go into, and you'll fix the problem.

"Your larger point is a fair one, but Lady Gaga is probably a poor example to use: she went to the Tisch School of the Arts at NYU. NYU may not be an Ivy, but it's expensive and quite selective, particularly the Tisch program."

Whoops. I guessed. Should have known I would guess wrongly.

"Queenan's observations don't necessarily jibe with my experiences as a college student."

Queenan is talking about the population of smart, connected kids who grew up in comfort, joined all the right clubs, went to the right schools, and now are finding that the real world doesn't value all the things they believed were important. I believe that the hardest-hit segment of the population in this recession are male blue-collar workers, particularly in fields like construction. Unfortunately, journalists and filmakers don't know any of those people, so they write about the poor Ivy League grads instead. (And I do feel sorry for these kids but Queenan's idea that this is the second Depression is incredibly silly.)

"My younger sister is about to start college and she's majoring in English because she's good at it. Well sure, she's had 12 years of mandatory English classes, but she's never had the opportunity to find out if she's good at business or economics or computer science or engineering, etc."

Young people are being taught that "I can't do math" is a valid statement. No, it may be hard for you but very, very few just plain can't do it. It's also a shame that so few undergrads know that graduate education in the physical sciences and engineering generate little to no debt because you are paid to attend (you are given a teaching or research assistant job). My field (astrophysics) even has schools offering signing bonuses to the best potential grads to lure them away from other schools. Amazing.

There doesn't seem to be any "education bubble." As the article above illustrates to some degree, employers have available to them a buyer's market, not a seller's market. And potential employees must work hard to hawk their utility to employers. So there doesn't seem to be any false illusion of value in the sense of the dot-coms and then houses, our beloved 'tulips' of the last decade. There are single potential buyers, not many, and they have a vast choice or workers to buy--and may set the value themselves.

But one might agree that the purchase of a degree (in both time and money, and perhaps in some cases, effort) is a gamble of a sort. And that any illusion that a conferred degree has value without real work experience is naive. Is a college graduate more capable than any other person? There's no proof of that; only real experience tells whether a person is a good and able worker. There are plenty of brilliant and effective people with no college background. Those with a strong mind, ambition, and conscientiousness would typically rise in fortune no matter what state the world was in--with or without credentials. No "rock star" is out of a job at any time.

But for the average person of no special merit--and with no family connections and wealth--it is a leg up; it is a visa for possible entry. You must find a way to distinguish yourself from the crowd, especially as a young person, and a degree is a known and traditional way to do that, endorsed by hundreds of years of social potency.

I wanted a career doing what I loved, but no one wants to pay me to smoke dope, drink wine, and watch porn. So I have to fix computers.

Robert, firstly profound thanks for serving our nation, and second accept my own gratitude for your injection of Mr. Kipling into these threads. Outside of the male-oriented parlance of his time, we might do well to ask ourselves what a "man" is these days, and by that we might mean that young men and women will eventually be thankful for the opportunity to become responsible adults at an earlier age due to these economic circumstances. There is a silver lining in the challenge of these times--in that it will be a good thing for these folks to cast off any visions of sugar plums and white picket fences at a younger age than usual. There will be a group of people whose entry to adulthood in the band of two to three years as the economy recovers who will be stronger and more resourceful because of the challenges they will face—and overcome.

"I wanted a career doing what I loved, but no one wants to pay me to smoke dope, drink wine, and watch porn. So I have to fix computers."

*Snork!!!* That's hilarious. It is true, though, that sometimes work is going to suck simply because it's work. If it was all fun, someone would already be doing it for free.

And this, from Radwaste:

""Three, the legacy costs that society has imposed on young people will be a millstone around their necks for decades."

And whose idea was it that going into debt was a risk for other people?"

We aren't necessarily talking about contracts you sign your name on, like buying a house, a car, or an English degree. Who is paying for Grandma and Grandpa to drop out of the workforce while they are still relatively young and healthy, so they can loaf for the next 25 years? Who is going to cough up the $2 million Grandpa needs for a heart valve replacement when he's 75? (Which is why he manages to live so long in the first place.) Who is going to pay the interest on the money the government borrowed back then, since it didn't raise taxes on Grandma and Grandpa? In no way is the answer to ANY of these questions "Grandma and Grandpa."

Pirate Jo, lots of people think the government program, or the people they vote for who bring them, are just wonderful - because the debt they cause is for "other" people. That's what I not-so-obviously intended to include.

Thanks, Radwaste - As to your other points, about young people borrowing a fortune for an expensive but unmarketable degree, a house, car, etc. I think you are saying that many of their financial woes are of their own making, and I agree. I was thirty years old before I bought a decent car. Even when I was in my early 20's, fresh out of college, I saw my classmates make brand new cars their first purchase. So they ended up with $25,000 car loans, on top of their college debt. No wonder so many of them are STILL buried in debt. The younger generation seems willing to accept even more - they have come to see indebtedness as a permanent way of life.

But when it comes to the crushing national debt and the burden these entitlements place on young people, I think they have every right to complain. Gen X is right there in the same boat with them on that score. If Gen Y goes through the same disillusionment and disappointment that Gen X did, and experiences the same distrust of governments, institutions, and hierarchy that the X'ers did, well good! When we finally start to amount to some numbers that count, we might finally start getting rid of some of these corrupt institutions we inherited. We'll eventually get to the top of this steep hill, and things will work themselves out, but it's going to be painful until we get there and might take a long time.

>> I've come to believe that career counselors
>> are paid to inebriate college kids on their
>> own hopes and dreams.

> I was also an English major. And I couldn't
> agree more.

It's not that you guys are wrong. You're not wrong.

But, y'know, um, these spirits find each other.

No counselor ever had anything to offer me, though they all demanded their office time anyway. (And on two memorable occasions, bungled the paperwork with painful consequences.)

But, like, even when they were making their pitches about what life might be, I could look into their eyes and read the calendar posted on the wall behind their heads. One of the greatest showbiz devices of all time was the schoolteacher's voice on the Charlie Brown cartoons, the muted trombone warbling with windless disinterest. "Wamp-wuhwuh-waaaaawaaaa"... It was always like that.

Peer pressure isn't an excuse for bad choices, but neither is counselor pressure.

Colleges and universities are in the later stages of being a scam. The ancient Chinese required a long course in Confucious to be admitted to the bureaucracy. We require a long course in college to be admitted to serious work.

College does not have to provide a measureable result, so they provide any convenient result or no result. They are separated from the needs of their customers, except for providing the "diploma", a mysterious piece of paper that can be awarded in any subject. So, colleges and universities are being run for their own advantage, not for students. Academic "freedom" has become academic "anything".

College is an Expensive IQ Test
-- They Let You Pay Them. It Doesn't Mean They Are Worth It.

From 11/2008 Washington Monthly by Kevin Carey:

Colleges are status-seeking institutions. Research and scholarship, Division I sports programs, new buildings, and high SATs are all components of status. Status seeking would be perfectly acceptable if a college’s reputation were based largely on teaching. Colleges would balance the competing interests of students, faculty, administrators, alumni, and the public. Self-interested institutions would prosper, and students would get a high-quality, reasonably priced education.

But status in higher education is not based on comparable measures of student learning, because such measures aren’t publicly available; lobbyists for colleges and universities have made sure the data is kept under wraps. It is effectively impossible to judge institutions by their outputs, by how much students learn. So, the pecking order is based on inputs like freshman SAT scores and tuition cost. Price has become a symbol of quality, instead of a component of quality. Colleges have many incentives to raise prices and none to lower them. Lower prices send a negative signal, often driving away students.

I'm Gen Y, graduating from a state school this Friday. I chose a state school over a private school I loved when I was in high school because of the money - it would be infinitely cheaper for my family to pay for state education. I am graduating with a BA in history, but - WAIT FOR IT - am going to dental school in the fall.

The trick is not to major in something you hate, just because it's marketable. You'll hate it and won't do well, and the marketability doesn't mean anything. The trick is to major in something you love, but have a long term plan and work towards that with other classes, internships and experience to enhance your resume.

I did a little work with the admissions dept at my school and they did say "choose a major you'll like" which I agree with but they also said "take a few random classes in the beginning, you don't need to figure out right away what you want to do." Bullshit! That's what is screwing college kids over, not the majors.

"Will employers start to figure out that many of the jobs generally filled by college grads don't really require a college education to do? Is that already happening?"

At least in my field, that's been happening for a while. The problem is that the grads are not over-educated, but mal-educated -- they learned a bunch of stuff, but not the stuff they needed to learn for the jobs available. Worse, some of them learned stuff that actually makes them less desirable as employees. There's a fairly large segment of the humanities and social sciences these days that combines pseudo-scientific quackery with instruction on how to be a malcontent. Employers avoid these grads like the plague.

One Idea that I am really liking is if we let the loan officers knock some reality into the system. Unfortunately the trend is going the opposite way.

Treaat it just like any other buisness loan. Present a buisness plan, profitablility projections, past performance.
You want to go to borrow $100K for college? Tell me your major and show me your grades/test scores, and I'll consider it.
Hmm you want to go into engineering and have a 3.9 gpa? Sounds like a worthy investment.
You want to go into history, and have a 3.5 gpa? Sorry I can't approve that.

Doing what you love is fine. Its a dream, IF you can get paid for it.

If you can't get paid for it, get a job to pay the bills and do what you love as a hobby until you can do it for money.

I'm not paying shit to support some dumbass art history major that well, took out 100k in loans to study art history.

I still wish I could get paid to ride my bike all day, but not only do I *not* get paid for it, I even had to buy my own bike! WAAAHHHHH!

Three, the legacy costs that society has imposed on young people will be a millstone around their necks for decades.

Then young people shouldn't have voted overwhelmingly for him. Votes have consequences.

The trick is to major in something you love, but have a long term plan and work towards that with other classes, internships and experience to enhance your resume.

Agreed. I was an English major in college, and I don't regret it at all. I have never had trouble supporting myself (at one point, I had more jobs than I could handle, and I was supporting my husband). I realized there was a tradeoff. No one is really impressed by an English degree, so I did several unpaid internships and worked hard to get out in 3-1/2 years to reduce the tuition burden. I got two job offers within three weeks of graduation.

We don't all have to be engineers and scientists to make a good living. We just need a realistic plan.

Ronald Kessler on college being a scam:

http://www.newsmax.com/blogs/RonaldKessler/id-69