Well, if you're a woman, and you couldn't find the right man to have kids with, and you've hit menopause, your life is so over /MUCHO SARCASMO

There is this thing, ladies, you might have heard of it, called adoption. And these days, I don't hear much about enforcement of heteronormative adoption laws, so even if a woman was simply waiting for the right woman to come along, she could still adopt. The lesbian mayor of Houston is raising two kids with her significant other, after all.

If adoption isn't an option, then I guess you could scour funerals and divorce courts for single fathers/mothers/ MAS SACRCASMO

There's always being a big sister to an at-risk child. You would have a rewarding relationship with all the perks and none of the stress of being the kid's sole source of love and parenting. Getting involved at schools or places of worship might have the same result.

Then there are nieces and nephews, which I imagine would be like having your face pressed up against a bakery window on a cold winter's day when you forgot all your cards and cash at home.

But to answer the question, I *do* want kids, and if I get to a point where having them isn't feasible, even with the niece and "little sister" and all the kids at the church, it would really, really hurt. I could resign myself, but I think I'd always feel the emptiness.

Accept it? They buy cats, many cats. Duh.

> They buy cats, many cats. Duh.

I dated that woman. Ended weird.

I absolutely can understand the sadness of a woman who wanted to have a child and didn't met the right man in time.

But, I don't think being a choice mom is the way to go.

If you believe having a child is a selfish act — and it is; no baby demands to be born — then you have to look the motivations behind having one solo. Typically it's "I want a baby!"

But, you know, we don't always get what we want, and just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

That said, since most couples experience extreme unhappiness the first few years after a baby is born, maybe a gal should be a choice mom first — and then shop around for a man.

Just sayin' ...

A question for women who have or who've had a strong urge to have children: Is it possible for you (by possible, I mean, not perfect but satisfying enough), if you can't find a partner with whom you can have children of your own, to be a very involved aunt or godparent to others' children? Or is that unrealistic?

heh, way to go with a simple yet complex question, Amy... no less difficult than "what is your life for?" I look forward to the replies...

Kat, children of single parents or divorced parents have worse outcomes in myriad areas of life. Your baby in the womb has no choice in the matter, a la, "Gee, I'd love to be born without a daddy!"

Also, the notion that men generally want a woman with a kid is...unrealistic.

Kat Wilder:

> If you believe having a child is a selfish act — and it is; no baby demands to be born

Yeah, creating another person who will live a life full of wonder, learning, and joy, and spending decades of your own time and hundreds of thousands of dollars of your wealth to raise this new person and give him or her a start in the world is about the most selfish act I can think of.

Great point, Kat. Thanks for contributing.

A girl I dated had eggs frozen at 38, because she was worried about not having a kid in time. That seems like a reasonable option, maybe with a surrogate mother. I don't know if she was planning on having one without a husband, she just wanted to make sure she had healthy eggs.

Of course, she was kinda nutty, I was dating her a few months after that and she was on a mission to find a man and pop out babies ASAP. Frankly she was scary.

She also was an extremely involved godmother. Always spending time with kids, almost to an unhealthy extent. I think she tried to make her godchildren replace the kids she didn't have yet, she would continually be hours late for dates because she said she wanted to spend extra time with her nephew. That was a pretty clear signal she liked her nephew more than she liked me, which is fine, but she admitted she did it to other guys too.

I've been dwelling on this lately, as I fall into the category. There is an element of mourning that I expect will pass. The weirdest part is trying to get a picture of what the rest of you life might look like. It's easy to imagine kids, grans and great grans gathered round the fireplace. What is the iconic Christmas card photo when there are no generations?

I am trying to get Zen and even excited about what life has in store, reminding myself how blessed and lucky I am already. I look at my friends, several of whom also never had children, and realize we are a new demographic. I'm happy, they're happy. We're also surprised and a little scared.

Stay tuned.

50, newly. That'll make you do a lot of Alfie or Peggy Lee thinking-- what's it all about, is that all there is.

Amy — I was joking! All you have to do is read "Marry Him" and see how well finding a man after the fact is.

As for creating another person who will live a life full of wonder, learning, and joy, and spending decades of your own time and hundreds of thousands of dollars of your wealth to raise this new person and give him or her a start in the world is about the most selfish act I can think of.

We have kids because we want them — the world isn't demanding another baby, and there are a lot of them right now who need love and care and food and parents, wanting to experience "wonder, learning, and joy."

To each his own, and if a woman — or a man (there are a few choice dads, too)— wants to make that choice, go right ahead.

That said, I know a few choice moms whose kids are rebellious teens now; they never did find the man they hoped to and they are totally stressed out doing it all alone. Not saying that it can't be done, or can't be done well, but having a baby, whether as a choice mom or as a couple. is a selfish act — as in for myself, no one else.

And, you know, I'm a mom — divorced. With a teen, a great kid. I couldn't imagine the world without him, but I suppose the rest of the world could.

Couldn't agree more. But, I wouldn't say she's horrible. Still, when she rejected a guy because of his name — his name! — you really have to wonder.

And, I'm sure glad she's not my mom ...

As I mentioned a few days ago, I have no idea how it feels like to want a baby, so I asked my best friend, who is exactly in this position, or was a few years ago.

She wanted babies so bad, and said the best she could explain it was like when you're missing a tooth. There was a baby-sized gap in her heart or something.

Anyway, she is also a teacher of first-and-second graders. She may love teaching kids even more than she loves kids themselves.

She is surrounded by children, to the point where she can appreciate the time she has to do other things.

I've read that some childless women are too sad and bitter to appreciate other women's babies and don't want to be around them.

Personally, I always thought if I felt a sudden urge to be a grandma, I'd find a daycare or get a sitter's license or something. I'm 54 now and still haven't felt that particular urge.

Most people are "searchers". They want the best piece of land with the most glorious view. They see newer and more glorious views wherever they go, and can't be happy until they find the best one. Because life is linear, you can never be sure that you found the best one, or should have waited a bit longer. If they ever stop searching, they feel that they have "settled" for less than they deserved.

Some people are "builders". They pick a piece of land and build their house there with loving craftsmanship. They can admire other views, but they know that they have the best house for themselves.

Regarding Gottlieb, if you read closely, and read the interview Anna North did at Jezebel of her ex-boyfriend, you get what an entitled, loveless, awful human being she is.

I read a book for the ideas within, but I have to say, I can see why she has a problem. Vivian Gornick, at least, finally admitted it -- that her problem wasn't "the patriarchy," but that she was horrible to live with. (Can't remember what book that's in -- will try to.) I have to run out -- will search my blog for it now and try to post the link.

From the interview with her ex-boyfriend -- there was something about how, at the ice cream store, she was glad for what he ordered, because she never could've respected him if he'd chosen vanilla.

I am now dealing with this issue. Not only have I not met the right man, at 37 years old, but I have a degenerative illness that would horrify me to pass on to a child. But, I can't imagine my life without a child. I can't imagine getting old and being alone.

Maybe I will consider becoming a foster parent? I'm not sure yet.

Gornick quote here:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/01/08/maybe_it_isnt_t.html

The Husband Store

A brand new store opened in New York City that sells husbands. Women see these instructions at the entrance: "You may visit this store ONLY ONCE! There are 6 floors and the value of the products increase as you go up. You may choose any item from a particular floor, or may choose to go up to the next floor, but you cannot go back down except to exit the building!

So, a woman goes to the Husband Store to find a husband.

The 1st floor sign reads: These men have jobs.
The 2nd floor sign reads: These men Have Jobs and Love Kids.
The 3rd floor sign reads: These men Have Jobs, Love Kids and are extremely good looking.

"Wow," she thinks, but feels compelled to keep going.

The 4th floor sign reads: These men Have Jobs, Love Kids, are Drop-dead Good Looking, and Help with Housework.

"Oh, mercy me!" she exclaims, "I can hardly stand it!". Still, she goes to the 5th floor.

The 5th floor sign reads: These men Have Jobs, Love Kids, are Drop-dead Gorgeous, help with Housework, and Have A Strong Romantic Streak.

She is so tempted to stay, but she goes to the 6th floor anyway.

The 6th floor sign reads: You are visitor 31,456,012 to this floor. There are no men on this floor. This floor exists solely as proof that women are impossible to please. Thank you for shopping at the Husband Store.

To avoid claims of gender bias, the store owner opened a New Wives store just across the street.

The 1st floor has wives that love sex.
The 2nd floor has wives that love sex and have money.
The 3rd through 6th floors have never been visited.

Most men, in my view, want somebody to be sweet to them, and they also want to feel they're succeeding at making you happy. They need to know they're appreciated. (Keeping sex going and not letting your looks go are two other essentials.)

The sour, demanding bitch who criticizes a man for everything is the antithesis of what a man wants.

There are several billion people on this planet. Not having met the right man is...oy...there is NO nice way to say it.

That would mean that the woman in question was "the wrong one" for the men she'd met 100% of the time. That being the case...the problem isn't likely that she never met the right man...the problem is more likely that she was nuts, controlling, demanding, a howling feminist, entitled, spoiled, lazy, excessively career focused, or so nit picky over the smallest details and flaws in a man that she'd have driven off prince charming by harping about his choice of hobbies. Now it needn't be all of these things. It could be any one or more of those traits. It might even be some traits that aren't on the list...like being so consistently slutty that no sane man would want to marry her, or so frigid he'd be sex starved all the time...There are a fair number of possibilities.

But the point here is that it isn't that said woman hasn't met the right man. Its that she had serious flaws herself, or serious behavioral problems, that either kept her from looking in the right places (such as at a grocery store at 0900 on Saturday instead of an off campus bar at 0200 on a Wednesday), or kept her from seeing that the men that had been in her life might have made fine husbands, if only she'd been willing to let the little flaws go.

I remember a dear abby LW who said that her sister, asked why she never married always answered, "Because I never met a man who deserved to be as happy as I could make him." For once Abby had a response that was almost Alkonworthy.

I realize a great many women don't hold to such an extreme level of arrogance and idiocy. But between the two sexes, lets face it ladies, we men are a rather less picky about the picture perfect partner. I have about...5 important points to want to keep someone with me. And maybe 3 or 4 extras that are negotiably icing on the cake. I don't know any men much more picky than myself. Women write whole books on the subject.

Its no wonder there is a rise in the childless or the husbandless.

Consider this:

I'm in my 30s now. Separated, goes with the job really, 2 children I'd do anything for, which ironically is part of the reason I'm separated, which is a whole other story. After they're grown, I will probably divorce. When that time comes, I'll be about 41. I'll have completed most of my major professional goals, and I won't have to work nearly as much to have the lifestyle I want. I take DAMN GOOD care of myself...my fondness for two or three Partagas blacks (cigars) per month notwithstanding.

If at that point I want to settle down again, and have another child with someone, I'll be presented with several choices on the dating scene.

I can:
A. Date women in their 40s, fading roses which may have otherwise fine personality traits, if they're looking to settle down now, chances are it is because they were career dedicated before, and are looking now because they want a child, not because they want a relationship. (I know there are exceptions, but there is a "new demographic" as one poster put it, and they are going to be the dominant members of it.)

B. Date women in their 30s, still flowers, probably educated, and had some life experience.

C. Date women in their 20s, wheee! sounds like fun, but I remember MY 20s, and I doubt it would be all that different for the next generation.

My point in those 3 is that as an established fit male with career and prospects and energy, (my family ages well), I have an array of choices. A woman in her 40s does not.

If I were a more sensitive soul, I might feel bad for the woman who hits her 40s and suddenly wants to have kids.

But everyone makes choices, and every opportunity taken is another opportunity put aside.

> Yeah, creating another person who will
> live a life full of wonder, learning,
> and joy

Your sarcasm is repellent.

We see essentially zero evidence that the typical maternal impulse comprises such a comically rich list of goals as you've provided. Most women's daydreams of motherhood dissolve to haze after a scenario of a smiling baby looking up at her in brilliant afternoon sunshine.

And after that, like, whatever. It's society's fault. Or the government's....

I think that it's appropriate for women who've gotten to this point to really investigate what they're doing and why. Because for someone who's that old and hadn't taken steps earlier, children probably haven't been a priority. They need to determine whether they really have the temperament and patience for children.

Former coworker and friend: his wife, when he married her, was about 5'5", 145, sporting a pair of K's, worked three jobs, and was a sweet nice woman. He had only met the F-I-L and S-I-L's a little and the M-I-L had died (natural causes).

So he married her -- 12+ years down the line she's no longer working, had a breast reduction, about 250+ pounds. The F-I-L has failed at everything, has a S-I-L that is a drug addict. Wife also had a month stint at Johns Hopkins Psychiatric - Minnesota in there.

She is now 40+ (hopefully post pregnancy).

They had knock-down drag outs that cops were occasionally called over she wants to have children. He's smart enough to not propogate with her.

He is trapped because his pay would be sucked down on the alimony. He just thanks god on a daily basis that they never had kids.

I just wanted to post this about an Ann Landers survey I read about a few days ago. According to the article, Ann polled her readers and asked how many of them regretted having their kids. Forty percent of repondents answered that they did and if they had it to do over, they would NEVER have had their kids--and most had husbands! One woman even referred to herself as basically an exhausted stress ball after her kids, whereas before she and her husband were relaxed, free of financial worry, and had ample spare time for each other. I think a lot of women who get the longing to be a mommy should go work in a daycare with every age group for a year. I had my first baby when I was 17 and had NO HELP from my parents. I have no regrets because I feel I am a better person and I know I would have turned into a self indulgent adult brat if not for him, but it is hard. It's still hard and he's nearly eleven. Not a bratty, rebellious eleven, but now I'm looking more at the expensive side of things, like after school activities, summer camps, and sports. You have to keep your head and learn not to buy a new purse every week or go without cable for a summer or whatever. It's all about sacrifice and some women and men aren't built for it.

Alimony made sense when women were not supposed to work outside the home. It provided a lifeline to a woman until she settled into another house.

Now, it makes no sense. I wonder, if politicians had said, "Tell you what activisits, you can go for all the jobs you want to...but if you are able to get those jobs, there is no reason for ex husbands to provide alimony any longer...so we're going to end the practice." I wonder how many women's lib activists there would have been?

Jim, I'm not much for empathy, but even I am sorry for that friend of yours.

I've just turned 30 and have begun to think, for the first time, about having children. I've read that 35 is kind of a pivotal number - the occurrence of serious birth defects evidently increases dramatically among women who give birth after 35.

So, I've been thinking about this, and wondering. I'm not in the perfect financial position, but I don't know if I'll ever be in the financial position I think I "should" be to have kids. Just FYI - it's not a case of needing government support, I'm not in that kind of position either. I do have a wonderful husband who would be a wonderful father. But I agree that it is a selfish decision to bring a baby into the world, one that should require a great deal of thought.

But then, a relative said to me the other day, "You'll never regret having kids, but you will always regret it if you don't." I wonder if that's true? That's why I'm interested in this particular discussion...

Crid, you're an OK guy, we disagree on a great deal, but no worse than any of my drinking buddies and I.

But on this line:

"We see essentially zero evidence that the typical maternal impulse comprises such a comically rich list of goals as you've provided. "

I have to say, if your own mother was not just such an example, you don't know what you missed. Maybe I was just lucky.

"Most men, in my view, want somebody to be sweet to them, and they also want to feel they're succeeding at making you happy. They need to know they're appreciated. (Keeping sex going and not letting your looks go are two other essentials.)

The sour, demanding bitch who criticizes a man for everything is the antithesis of what a man wants."

----------------

And this is why I read your column, and your blog Miss Alkon. You are that rare wench that really understands men.

Yes ladies, we really are that easy to keep happy. Remember what is in those 3 sentences, and only the lowest of the low in the male gender will abandon you for even the hottest 20 year old stripper.

Don't forget about the stomach. There's gotta be good cookin' too....

heh, Juliana, if the Chica is sweet to me, I'll cook for her... or we can go out.

I think Jessica K, has really nailed the Q? with the idea of regret, and might've beens. The fear of this causes some unfortunate behavior.

Fear is the mind-killer as they say.

This is the tweet of the day; there are no contenders.

Fear is the mind-killer as they say.

Posted by: SwissArmyD

Dune. BEST 80's MOVIE EVER

> I have to say, if your own mother

You can get personal about it you wanna... my own mother exceeded the curve for excellence by a size-huge margin, and you wouldn't believe the deets if I told you. But I wouldn't call it "luck". She worked hard, made sacrifices, and negotiated rough waters for the whole ride.

> Maybe I was just lucky.

You should reflect on that possibility. As should commenter tjic, who describes the will to motherhood this way:

> creating another person who will live a
> life full of wonder, learning, and joy, and
> spending decades of your own time and
> hundreds of thousands of dollars of your
> wealth to raise this new person and give
> him or her a start in the world

Maybe this guy's whole life is a Hallmark Card, with orchestral themes lilting softly in the background as he opens the envelope with gentle fingers... Maybe he honestly believes this is what the impulse to motherhood means for humanity. But it would be fun to hear his explanation for charts like these, which describe fates of something less than "wonder, learning and joy."

And maybe this happens in rhetoric across the globe. I wouldn't know. But American culture has a despicable habit of describing maternal nature as the comic-book superpower for a doer of good deeds, a munificence undeterred by impurity, incompetence, or practicalities.

Take another look a tjic's golden paragraph up there... Is there any comparable force at work in men's lives, one that you could mention in a group without facing laughter? Is it likely that evolution has granted such excellence to one sex, without bring complementary magic to the other?

It's not just that people are willfully oblivious to the specific horrors that this sunny chatter about motherhood excuses. There are general consequences, too. I think all those divorces described in the graphs are what happens when people realize that these problems are insoluble without unpleasantness. People don't want to hold each other accountable in any general sense... Especially if they too can imagine seeking recourse in divorce or single motherhood.

It's much easier to pretend that a truly (yet vaguely) 'loving' mother can handle anything.

Interesting. I've mostly made my peace with the fact that I am highly unlikely to have children. Sometimes are harder than others, but I've enjoyed teaching children martial arts and adore the babies of my friends. I concentrate and have an interesting life and know I'll probably end up with two cats. Life isn't fair, I made my choices, so I'd prefer to make some lemonade. Strangely enough, I seem to be a less bitter person the older I've gotten. Of course, maybe that is why I'm dating a younger man. :)

Alimony made sense when women were not supposed to work outside the home.

I agree in part (i.e. if they are working, then they can continue working).

In his case -- he has been the sole breadwinner for X number of years, so he is hosed. But at the same time the CFO who comes home and "I'm leaving you for my 25 year old secretary" after she has been a home maker for 15 years. I have no sympathy for him either.

------------------------

Back when I had my precious Penny -- he would relate stories to me of their relationship. After some of them I would make a point to buy her a bouquet of flowers (or other gifts) that evening.

I'm tired of dating men from single mothers. No matter how "good" they were I'm generally stuck with a guy with a bunch of issues. And yes I understand that alot of married mommies AND daddies give their children issues but it nowhere near compares to a man who has never had a father.

A question for women who have or who've had a strong urge to have children: Is it possible for you (by possible, I mean, not perfect but satisfying enough), if you can't find a partner with whom you can have children of your own, to be a very involved aunt or godparent to others' children? Or is that unrealistic?

This is me. Two nieces, two nephews. And 3 cats. Oh, and because of menopause, lots of angst-free sex with men who are not father material. I couldn't be happier how it all turned out.

> Ppen at May 28, 2010 10:33 PM

That's a compelling data point! Ever'buddy see that?

That was an interesting link crid, i'll have to find that book

A review from back before Salon's mind was locked down and closed for business.

See also. Money shot:

Thus polyandry, or mating with multiple males, is an advantageous breeding strategy for langur females. By mating with as many extra-group males as possible, female langurs ensure their offspring against infanticide should one of those males take over the group at a later date.

"From a mother's perspective, polyandrous behavior is assiduously maternal," Hrdy said.

"You'll never regret having kids, but you will always regret it if you don't."

I have heard that too. However, I have heard other things. My MIL (who loves her kids) said, "Eh, there are a lot of other great things to do in life." A coworker (who is very family-oriented) said, "You will be missing out on something amazing but you won't know because until you are a parent, you can't understand how it feels."

I suspect that's about right. If either my husband or I had wanted children the other would have been happy to go along. In the absence of a strong urge from either of us, though, it didn't seem like we should have kids "because we are supposed to."

I'm tired of dating men from single mothers. No matter how "good" they were I'm generally stuck with a guy with a bunch of issues.

I've come to feel similarly about women raised this way. When I was younger, these were the promiscuous girls and now they're the women with lots of baggage.

> A coworker (who is very family-oriented)
> said, "You will be missing out on something
> amazing but you won't know because until
> you are a parent, you can't understand
> how it feels."

There's probably a better name for this, but let's call it inverted sour grapes. (Supersweet grapes?)—

Rather than worry that the lives of singles are as carefree and pleasure-filled as he imagines them to be, the coworker will pretend his own life has precious magic that others don't know about... Or at the very least, that anyone in his position would feel as he does.

This is almost never the case. A fundamental weakness in the human condition is that people won't accept that others feel differently.

"Missing out" is one of the most demented clichés at work in popular thought. And it bugs me because I think it gets an extra charge from commercial culture, which uses it to goose sales of motor homes and grooming products: "Don't MISS OUT!!"

"I'm tired of dating men from single mothers. No matter how "good" they were I'm generally stuck with a guy with a bunch of issues."

Too true. I was raised by a single mother, and most people here will testify as to how mentally and emotionally defective I am.

I agree that men tend to be less picky about women than women are about men. How many men end up settling down with the first woman they meet who is nice to them and gives them a regular supply of sex? I suspect a fair few.

And generally women are attracted to a smaller percentage of men than the proportion of women that men are attracted to. So women have the advantage here. It is generally women who do the choosing.

For any woman who complains that they cannot find a man, there are only two explanations. Either she has very high standards, and is rejecting a lot of men she considers not good enough. Or she is really that ugly or nasty that no man would want to be with her.

Seriously, men are simply creatures with simple needs. How hard can it be?

>>This is almost never the case. A fundamental weakness in the human condition is that people won't accept that others feel differently.

Amen! I describe what is exactly the same concept, differently, my view is that all human parameters are on a Bell Curve. That includes desire to have children, and tendency to feel a need for religion, and almost anything else you can identify.

My definition of being educated is no one is truly educated until they understand this.

This conservatives think liberals are stupid, and liberals think conservatives are evil. As hard as it is for a conservative like me to openly admit, both are just doing what they are 'wired' to do.

> men tend to be less picky about women
> than women are about men.

Eh, maybe. Amy had a post about this a few months ago... Women seem to want to regard their love lives as a narrative to be shared at some later date, like a book report. And they want some drama in the early chapters, before the enviable "happily ever after" happens. Specifically, a woman wants to believe that she's moved through the world with enough color and flash that The Magical Eyeball of Cosmic Fate has a chance to see them, and to drop the Mr. Perfect of her generation into her path.

Men just want a whole buncha different tail.

>>How many men end up settling down with the first woman they meet who is nice to them and gives them a regular supply of sex?

I had a close buddy at work. He and I both married and divorced in the early 70's. He is a very wise man.

In the mid-90's, he asked me, "Why did we marry our first wives?" He used to ask provocative questions like that, and I always knew I was about to have a good time.

After some discussion, we agreed pretty much what is said in the quote at the top if this posting.

As young men with no job, no money, we were, ahem, not treated well by young women whose attentions we sought.

As soon as we got good, stable jobs sufficient (in those days) to support a family, women came running. After so many years of being kicked around by women, when we encountered the first woman who acted as if we were desirable, we imagined that they loved us, and that we loved them, that we had found our true love.

It is much like two young men engaged in a pushing contest. If one jumps back suddenly, the other falls on his face. We pushed and pushed, looking for a sex partner; the first woman to cooperate and we fell on our faces.

There is some evidence if you explain this phenomenon to young men still in the rejection state, there is a chance, albeit not 100%, they will avoid this mistake. In those days, no one explained those things to us.

And, men are talking. Not all men; there are always those seeking the Darwin Award. But, men are increasingly opting out on commitments to women who had their careers and fun, and at 30 want to be married, at least temporarily to the same men they previously rejected while they dallied with Butch The Biker.

Forgive typo-zoidal bungles, distracted over here

I have my own definition of having it all, and it has nothing to do with anyone else's standards. If you try using a universal yardstick to measure your life, you'll always come up short. I'm the only one who's allowed to define what makes me happy. And, by golly, I'm living it right now.

>>What if you're a woman, and you want to have kids, but you just don't meet the guy to do it with, and you wake up one day and you've aged out of the egg business? Is this a horrible tragedy, or do you accept it?

Accept it. I had the opportunity to have children with a man who would have married me. I didn't do it because I could foresee a life of conflict and power struggles ahead for us, even though we loved each other. I didn't have the courage. By the time I found another man I loved it was too late for babies. In any event, he doesn't want them.

It's certainly something I feel sadness over, but it is in no way an actual tragedy. The fact that I was able to make my own choices at every stage of my life is, to me, the opposite of tragic, even if I now regret some of those choices. Also, I refuse to believe that my fertility was all I ever had to offer. I intend to spend the rest of my life seeing where I can be useful.

Eggs frozen at 38? For most women, that's too late.

I think the problem is that we don't learn about fertility enough. Women assume that they can have kids in their 40s... and they can... with donor eggs. Most women don't know about that last bit.

Yes, there are some women in their 40s who have children with their own eggs... they are a minority.

It's very funny, but infertility is a huge issue in my social group. The women aged from late 20s to late 30s. You'd think late 20s would be an ok time to start, and it usually is.

The problem is, society sends this "Wait till later" message, which is just not realistic and feasible for most people.

If women were better educated about fertility and how it declines, this would be less of an issue.

Women assume that they can have kids in their 40s... and they can... with donor eggs.

My cousin just announced she's having a baby. She's 45. It's supposed to be a secret that she used a donor egg. I'm pretending to be happy for her, but mostly I'm just hoping it all works out OK.

Irlandes, thanks for sharing your experiences.

I think you touch on an important point here. There is a pervasive double standard where men are expected to measure up to women's expectations, but men are expected to just settle for any woman who wants to settle down or is feeling her biological clock tick away.

I have had these kinds of arguments with some of the posters here, and I've been condemned for being lazy or narcissistic or somesuch for simply explaining why women cannot always have what they want.

And I think that women nowadays have more of an entitlement mentality about these things. If a man can't find a girlfriend or a wife, he is more likely to think that maybe it is because he doesn't measure up in some way. But women tend to believe they deserve an ideal partner.

Nicole I think that most women used to know these things, but it became PC to promote the idea that women's fertility extended into your 40's. I don't think that this had any scientific basis, it was just feminists trying to validate their ideas about how women should live their lives.

If women were better educated about fertility and how it declines, this would be less of an issue.

Posted by: NicoleK

Janoodle hit the nail on the head. If women were propery educated on fertility issues many would make different choices.
Anyone ever see the epidose of Familly Guy where Peter becomres a feminist?

He meets a woman named 'Gloria Ironbox'(pretty sure Candice Bergen voiced her) who replies to Lois' observation about feminisim being about choices - "Whats the point in having choice if you make the wrong one?"

I think many feminists in charge of the movement have that attitude and feel justified in hiding info from the masses in order to ensure women make the "right" choices

The rediscovery of the truth about women's fertility would make a fascinating topic for a documentary. There really has been a movement to conceal the realities of fertility from women and to revise the scientific and medical literature on the subject. You'll still encounter a lot of resistance from feminists on this subject. They're wedded to the idea that the fact that women are more fertile when they're younger is false and that the promotion of this fact is some sort of conspiracy by men. Millions of women have believed them and as the result missed the ability to have children. I don't think that the magnitude and effect of this deception is well understood by the public.

> . They're wedded to the idea that the fact that
> women are more fertile when they're younger
> is false and that the promotion of this fact is
> some sort of conspiracy by men.

I've seen this amongst the (female) feminists in my own family, who WILL NOT ACCEPT at abortions result in a higher incidence of breast cancer. They just won't let it be said.

And let's be blunt—

> If women were better educated about
> fertility and how it declines, this would
> be less of an issue.

It doesn't just decline, it deteriorates: It's not just that fecundity that diminishes, outcomes are worse in all contexts.

"I absolutely can understand the sadness of a woman who wanted to have a child and didn't met the right man in time."

The average woman has about what, 30 odd years to 'meet the right man' before the clock runs out ... can it really be *that* hard to find a semi-decent man?

MonicaP: "I'm pretending to be happy for her"

I'm hoping that just *sounded* really cold but came out wrong.

I wonder what message the kids of choice moms are getting — at the very least, wouldn't they be learning that dads don't matter? That's what I wonder — are fathers irrelevant?

"That would mean that the woman in question was "the wrong one" for the men she'd met 100% of the time. That being the case...the problem isn't likely that she never met the right man...the problem is more likely that she was nuts, controlling, demanding"

I agree, a woman that is over 35 and haven't been able to find a husband the problem is her not the men. Something in her behavior she is attracting the wrong men, or she is too picky, or she wasn't interested in men until the last minute, or she likes crappy men. That or either is one of those women that spent ten years in a relationship with a guy that is telling them that he is not ready and she hasn't figure out yet that since the beginning he didn't want anythign with her and the I'm not ready is an excuse. I have absolutly no pity for those women. If they wanted children they should had tought about that in their twenties.

I dont think conservatives are evil, i think they are stupid. They dont handle complexity very well, and that is a sign of simple mindedness.

"I'm tired of dating men from single mothers. No matter how "good" they were I'm generally stuck with a guy with a bunch of issues. And yes I understand that alot of married mommies AND daddies give their children issues but it nowhere near compares to a man who has never had a father"

This is exactly right, I ended up being a single mother because I got involved with the son of a single mother who promissed me that he would never abandoned a child of his. As soon as I told him I was pregnant, he abandoned me. Men from single mother are the biggest liars in the world.