Parental Alienation Disorder sounds deserving of inclusion, although I would say it's more of a sociological disorder, as opposed to something like "anti-social personality disorder" (the new term for psychopathy, despite the fact that it sounds like a term for people who like to have lunch alone; let's hear it for ambiguous terminology replacing universally understood terms), which is a psychological disorder.

There is a very good reason not to include
"Parental Alienation Disorder" in the DSM V. This is the diagnostic manual that is used to justify charges to insurance. Every fake, so-called "disorder" put in this book drives up health-care costs.

Once upon a time, the diagnostic manual includes mostly genuine disorders. In recent decades, it has become a racket. Have a look at the DSM-IV codes:

- Alzheimers - makes sense, a real illness, we ought to treat it.

- Alcohol induced sexual dysfunction - really? How about drinking less? But I can imagine someone genuinely visiting a doctor for this, so let's give it a pass

- Factitious disorder - defined as a faked illness, but you can treat it, prescribe drugs, and rack of charges - because it's in the manual!

- Malingering - I kid you not, laziness is officially a psychological disorder that you can treat.

And many, many more...

This is supposed to be a disease manual, not a list of political causes, however worthy!

Alcohol induced sexual dysfunction

That's in there for the doctor to be able to give a reason to prescribe Viagra and other ED drugs.

I understand why men's groups are pushing for this inclusion. It might be the only way they can get basic fairness in some cases.

But, in general, this tendency to classify behaviors as illnesses or dysfunctions is a bad thing. It only encourages more bad behaviors by relieving the actor of any real responsibility for his actions. As in, "I'm not responsible. I've got a disease. It's out of my control. After all, it's in the manual and I can go to my shrink and get a pill for it."

This is all horse hockey. And a part of the root of what's rotten in our society.

I wonder... would including this in the manual allow people WHO DO IT to get off the hook because they have some kind of disease? Does it apply to the person who is alienated only, or to the person who instigates the alienation? This could cause even worse outcomes if it isn't written right.

On the other hand? NOW seems to promote the dominance of only one gender, they don't seem interested in anything equal. EXCEPT? Did they protest the inclusion of states like IRAN from the UN commision on the status of Women? Iran, a place that doesn't really support womens rights, and certainly allows for honor killings of them.
[crickets]

no, not a word, unless they are flaying how everything is terrible for women in the US.

I wish I could say they astonish me, but sadly they don't.

Groups like NOW need to keep getting more shrill and militant as the need for them fades every day.

Same thing in the Civil Rights area and ACLU. As we come ever closer to the society they wanted to see 30 years ago, they have to keep claiming we are no closer, otherwise...well, imagine being a 49 year old lifer at one of those places and trying to find a real job.

Sheeeeeesh....I've got the opposite problem - I can't get their dad to take them more than once a week! It's like pulling teeth, and I've begged him to take them after school, or on the odd Saturday, I've even asked him to just call them after school once in a while! It's not like he's busy or anything - well, okay he's busy living off his parents and trying to convince the state that he's 'disabled' and needs disability income, but other than that he doesn't do shit for his kids...oh wait, he did show up at the school last night for the band concert, which was #1's last performance with them. But when I asked him if he wanted to take them out afterward for a late dinner (it was over at 9:20) he hemmed and hawed, and I told him never mind. Good thing the girls were still with their friends and didn't hear him. They had dinner at home.

This doesn't sound like a disorder, per se, so much as actions stemming from resentment and anger, designed to punish the ex at all costs and with little regard for the child. Not to say that people who behave this way don't suffer from some sort of mental issue, but I don't think behavior necessarily equals mental illness. Sometimes an asshole is just an asshole.

"It only encourages more bad behaviors by relieving the actor of any real responsibility for his actions."

How so?

"As in, "I'm not responsible. I've got a disease. "

Bullshit. How does responsibility even come into the question? You've got the disease, you've got the responsibility to get it fixed? OK. Other than that, no. If you have leprosy, who gives a shit how you got it? You got it, that's what's important; whether you're to "blame" or not is completely irrelevant.

How about cancer? Wghere does responsibility come into it there? Treatment decisions? are yousaying "You have cancer but it's due to your own behavior; no treatment"? - when the more practical approach is "You have cancer and you're a goner; no treatment."

Besides this has nothing to do with excusing anyone's behavior - "Oh, I was the victim of PAS; I'm entitled to be psycho." - quite the opposite; this is about indicting behavior and preventing its effects in the first place.

NOW claims this is a ploy on the part of abusive parents to get custody when the reality is that this an attempt to get custoday away from abusisve parents. PAS is abuse.

"This doesn't sound like a disorder, per se, so much as actions stemming from resentment and anger,"

PAS is not the term for the ex's behavior but for the effects on the child. It is an induced condition, like PTSD.

>>PAS is not the term for the ex's behavior but for the effects on the child. It is an induced condition, like PTSD.

Exactly! Jim nails it. The effects of PAS stay with kids for years.

Holy hell, way to misinterpret the entire thing, huh? Apologies--Jim and irlandes are right, and I need more coffee. Or to go back to sleep.

I'm with Flynne. My ex has visitation 4 days a month, his request, and barely makes those days. When he does, he feels he is giving me a tremendous vacation from our children although my phone rings non-stop with questions from him and he feels the need to constantly visit. I know many wonderful fathers and feel for them if they are being kept from their kids. Many people are assholes during divorce and think they are hurting the other party when really its the kids getting hurt. I've done everything but get on my hands and knees and beg my ex to see his kids and be a father. It was actually the Law Guardian who said to me, "you'll never be able to make him do something he doesn't want to do, be a father."

Women control the family courts and want to keep it that way. The perpetrators of Parental Alienation are overwhelmingly women, that's why NOW doesn't want Parental Alienation recognized.

The ex is a borderline personlity. Kept me from seeing our daughter for 6 months until I could get a court date. Moved 200 miles away after court. Violated the court order by refusing to use my last name for our daughter. Parental Alienation anyone???

NOW's "concern" for the children is about as laughable as teachers unions' "concern" for students.

Lemme see if I can make it simple for those who, in response to what I said previously, think my opinion is "bullshit".

PAS (as described in the article) is a BEHAVIOR in which one parent tries to alienate the kids from the other parent. Leprosy and cancer are not behaviors; they are diseases that happen to someone, regardless of the way they behave (with the exception of, perhaps, doing something that gets one exposed). The only way to cure leprosy and (some) cancer is to get medical attention early enough. OTOH, one can cure oneself of the "disease" of PAS (or inflicting PAS on others, whichever you prefer) by simply being civil, considerate of others, putting the welfare of the kids first, and, overall, not acting like a self-centered moronic baby.

If you want to call PAS a mental illness, and thus a "disease", fine, I'm sure the shrinks will appreciate the business. However, people with proper adult maturity and self-control are capable of curing themselves of this "disease" by changing their attitudes and behaviors.

Cancer and leprosy often happen despite behaviors, and often (particularly with cancer) independently of the individual's behavior. PAS happens as a direct result of avoidable behaviors. This is why I impute responsibility to those with PAS, and not to those with cancer and leprosy. There is a world of difference between the two, and personal responsibilitarians understand what it is.

"If you want to call PAS a mental illness, and thus a "disease", fine,"

PAS is an injury that a parent inflicts on a child, cpa.

"The only way to cure leprosy and (some) cancer is to get medical attention early enough."

So what do you have against medical attention for na injury?

"However, people with proper adult maturity and self-control are capable of curing themselves of this "disease" by changing their attitudes and behaviors."

You are still making the mistake of misunderstanding what the rest of us are talking about. PAS does not refer to the behavior of the abusive parent.

"This is why I impute responsibility to those with PAS,"

So your opinion is still BULLSHIT because it doesn't even address the discussion.

You are simply mistaken about that. No one is talking about "treating" the parent for their misbehavior. We are talking about removing the child from the custody of an abuser with PAS as the form the abuse takes. The only *treatment* for the PAS abuser I would be interested in is hanging them up to die, but that is another conversation entirely.

If PAS refers to the effects on the child of the parent's vindictive behavior, as it apparently does from the discussion above, I too, like mse earlier, must apologize for misinterpreting. Sorry, Jim, for having wasted your time. Apparently, I had a bad day, too.

And I'm in particular agreement with your last sentence.

NOW's stance on PAS doesn't surprise me in the least. It's an organization that often fights real or perceived sexism against women unless the sexism benefits women, in which case they are all for it.

Plenty of men, likewise, favor sexism which benefits them.

I wonder where psychologists weigh in on whether or not PAS is a disorder of worthy of inclusion in the DSM. If anyone knows, please post here. Even if it was, it doesn't mean it recognition of PAS in a case would get the noncustodial parent more time with their child(ren). There are many reasons that explain why kid aren't seeing much - or none at all - of the noncustodial parent. The best judges have a hard time determining the truth, these situations being so murky.

I had an ex who was vindictive in ways unrelated to PAS, so I know what it's like. My advice to those who are suffering through the anguish of such situations is to do your utmost to remain calm, and devote your time and energy to doing things which will improve your lot in life and your happiness rather than be consumed with the machinations of your ex, and fighting her in court. Court fights will often not go in favor of the person seeking redress; you need to do your best to keep your mental equilibrium first and foremost.

"You are simply mistaken about that. No one is talking about "treating" the parent for their misbehavior. We are talking about removing the child from the custody of an abuser with PAS as the form the abuse takes. The only *treatment* for the PAS abuser I would be interested in is hanging them up to die, but that is another conversation entirely."

Good luck with that!! Parents aren't losing their kids for beating or neglecting them so you don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of removing a kid from a home where the parent is alienating the child from another parent. There are instances where an abuser will claim alienation as a tactic but I'd like to say the court system has evolved enough with the involvement of Law Guardians to differentiate between a parent who is truly abusive and a parent who is being accused of abuse to be kept away from the kids. Unfortunately I've seen firsthand how poorly the system still works so I'm not hopeful that we're at that point yet. It would be nice to know that there would be punishments for parental alienation but I don't see it ever happening except in the most extreme cases and even then it would have to be long term.

My younger brother is going through this right now. He regularly gets calls from his son's mother where she demands he buy him this game system or give her this much money or he can't see his son or she will leave the state with him.. She leaves messages on his voicemail that he forwards to his lawyer.. Horrible stuff. Even has the boy ask for stuff and ask why daddy doesn't come see him. She leaves this stuff on his voicemail because if she actually let the child talk to him he would make a date to come get him and he would know my brother hasn't abandoned him.

The custody hearing is next week and they are pretty sure he is going to win. Of coarse when he does get his son he is going to have to take him to get clothes and all that sort of thing because he has nothing.. More than 600 in child support every month, she gets free housing from the state and foodstamps and the boy has very little clothing or anything else. He has been prevented from seeing his son for nearly a year. I, since we just got back in contact this year after not seeing each other for 16 years, have never seen his son..

I hope it all goes well but I am pretty sure he has been taught to hate his daddy. There are going to be some behavior problems and that worries me. Exactly how much damage has been done.

I agree. While this happens and needs addressing, it's not a personal psychotic disorder. The moms and dads doing this don't have a mental illness that makes them incapable of not doing this. They're just evil. Last I checked there wasn't treatment for that, outside of jail time.

Seems like including it as an illness means people who do it won't be responsible for themselves or their actions, and that's bad. Especially for the people trying to see their kids.

Whoops-if it's to describe the CHILD, ok. I misread there.

"I agree. While this happens and needs addressing, it's not a personal psychotic disorder. The moms and dads doing this don't have a mental illness that makes them incapable of not doing this. "

Again, PAS does not refer to the parents doing it, but to the kid suffering the behavior. I see how you could be confusing this, because it's the parents' behavior that is causing the problem.

The parents tyically have another, already recognized disorder, either Narcissistic or Borderline Personality Disorder.

"Seems like including it as an illness means people who do it won't be responsible for themselves or their actions, and that's bad."

Yeah, agree, but that's not what we're talking about here. It's about the kids suffering emotional abuse, and PAS is the term for the abuse they are suffering.

Oops, sorry - you already said that.

And by the way, having PAS or having suffered that type of abuse shouldn't let anyone off any hooks. It just means 1) that it's abuse and it shouldn't be allowed and it should be prevented and stopped, and 2) the sufferer has an injury that needs to get tended to so they can be set right. If someone injures me with a weapon that doesn't entitle me to go around making other people miserable later on.

Yeah, it's not clear to me either if the proposed DSM diagnosis is supposed to apply to the parent or the child. If it's the child, I would argue that it's a legit diagnosis; after all, it will take therapy to fix. I'm exhibit A.

Josephine, I have a relative who went through that situation with his ex. She'd call and demand that he buy kids for the clothes. He did, and she took them back to the stores and got refunds. When he got smart about that and started removing the tags so she couldn't get refunds from the stores, she took the clothes to a flea market and sold them there(for about 20 cents on the dollar). She also tried, repeatedly, to forge his signature on credit card applications. A few times she got away with this; she'd take the card around to several stores and run the card up to its limit. Then, the next day, she'd take everything back and get refunds in cash. Of course the kids knew none of this.

Dave,

Same deal except she is in the projects and on drugs.. What get me is she also gets to file nephew on her taxes even though she has no job. If my brother gets him she will literally have no income.

What get me is that she said in court that he didn't do anything for his son and he brought the receipts for what he had bought him.. She turned around and said that the money he was spending on his son was so much that it proved he could afford more child support. How fucked up is that.. And worse the idiot judge considered it a good point.

For those who are going through a situation in which the parent with custody is either intent on or successful at turning the kids against the non-custodial parent - or who have relatives or friends going through this situation, I offer a hopeful idea: that a parent who really loves their kids almost always can, with some determination, find a way of demonstrating that love. And when that happens, the kids will eventually notice and respect you (unless they are hopeless miscreants either due to genetics and/or environment.)

What I'd advise payers to do is do everything possible to keep up on child support. It's hard in today's economy, but always pay whatever you can, even if you fall behind. If you do, and you end up in court, you will have some credibility in the eyes of the court. Your ex's possible contention that she's justified in keeping the kids from you until support is paid up should hurt her in the eyes of the court that way.

If you strive to be the kind of parent that sets an enable worth emulating, your kids will benefit. That's the kind of folks my parent were, and that's the type of person I strove to be as my kids were growing up. I've never told them I was trying to be a good model because I figured actions speak louder than words. (My 21-year-old is amazing mature; in fact he was at 17.) Stated a little differently, strive to be a grownup - because in the case of those who want to turn the kids against the other parent, they aren't really acting like adults.

Imagine, if you can, how it must feel to be a stranger to your own kids...knowing that at the same time you cannot see them you are also paying money every single month to someone who hates your guts. You women wonder why these guys don't "man up" and see their kids when they get the opportunity? Try putting yourself in their shoes.

I know several men like this. They feel like such a slave to their ex's they walk around all depressed all the time between going back to court again and again to give their ex's more and more money.

I know what it is like. I was the NC parent for 5 years. Paid all my CS and felt like a stranger around my son. Fortunately for me, she got greedy and tried the old moveaway. Now I have custody and she lives 1,000 miles away. I actually feel sorry for her because it hurts like hell, and I give her all the time she wants in the summer and spring break--no questions asked.

I'm not saying your ex may not just be a complete asshole and wants nothing to do with your kids...I'm just saying there might be some reason besides the one you think.

For every man out there that acts like a jerk after divorce there are 10 who wonder how they can be a good father seeing their kids 10 days out of every month.

Also, for anyone who thinks PAS is a joke, take a good hard look at yourselves and think about some of the things you say to your kids about your ex. You may think it is trivial, but your kids remember every single bad thing you ever said.

Parental alienation belongs in the DSM as an adjustment order. There are disorders in the DSM that address a child's unhealthy attachment to a parent, parental alienation is just the opposite side of the same coin.

It is important to remember that parental alienation is both a mother and father's issue. Sadly, neither men or women have cornered the market on the unhealthy emotional issues that lead one parent to damage, and in some cases destroy, a child's normal, healthy relatinship with the child's other parent. Both men and women are both the alienating parent and the targeted parent in equal numbers.

Thank you for your attention to this issue and efforts to raise the visibility of parental alienation.

Sincerely,

mike jeffries
Author, A Family's Heartbreak: A Parent's Introduction to Parental Alienation

Josephine MO7:

How did the custody hearing go?

Sounds like your brother got his first taste of the "logic" of the Family Court system during his support hearing-- you will be amazed, aghast and disheartened by what judges think are good points. I hate to say it, but many judges are simply ignorant of the damage that their decisions cause-- destruction to parent-child relationships, bankruptcy, threats of incarceration, etc. It is shameful.

My boyfriend is in the same situation as your brother. His ex-wife is an alienator and fits the description of Borderline Personality Disorder to a T. The worst is that she comes from an extremely wealthy family... she has millions in a trust fund.... so no attorney is too expensive and no issue is too trivial to take to court.

Despite presenting solid evidence of her alienation, lies, interference and malice, the court thinks she is Mary Poppins instead of the horrible witch that she is. There is no end in sight to the torture they inflict on my boyfriend for the "crime" of being a loving father and wanting to see his kids.

As an adult who suffered not only from a hostile agressive parent, but one who slipped into Parental Alienation Syndrome, I need to speak up here.
My mother demanded that I prove my loyalty. It was incessant. I was punished if I could not prove my loyalty daily, hourly, sometimes moment to moment. I was left feeling that my father was an "ineffective little man" who either couldn't or wouldn't rescue me from my tormentor. That was what led me to lash out at him... after all he left me to be tortured day after day.
PAS is not just the damage to my relationship with my non-custodial parent. The person who said it was like PTSD is not too far off. I suffered extreme trust issues, polarizing problems (everything was either black or white, there was no room for grey.) I had depression, self esteem issues (not uncommon when you get convinced that half of your DNA is demonic), I had trouble choosing healthy relationships. I treated my father very poorly, creating a downward spiral. The worse I treated my dad, the worse I felt about myself.
I was 40 when I finally asked him why he never came and rescued me. He was absolutely clueless. In my rush to convict him in my mind, I had failed to make sure he knew what my mother was doing.

So, inclusion of PAS in the DSM would open up the posibility of payment for treatment for kids growing up with this disorder. It is necessary.

Parental Alienation is so unrecognized by courts and social workers that it should be put in DSM for recognition and action. My 3 children in Germany were totally brainwashed by the mother against me after the oldest was 7 and I could never see them (Germany policy to keep foreign fathers out). Now as adults two of them never contact me and the other rarely does. Having children like that whom one at first raised and loved is worse than death of the child- you have to accept death, but you can never accept brainwashing of your child against you and you perpetually hope for change which may not come.

You can view "PAS" in action here: http://antimisandry.com/fathers-forum/who-needs-fathers-sake-kids-videos-29428.html

As a nurse in psychiatry at a large university in California and as a family member who has been personally affected by PA/PAD, I am continually hearing more and more references made about PA by the professional clinical staff. Its awareness and likely widespread acceptance is definitely on the upswing!!

Parental alienation is a mental disorder? Is a man with a mental disorder a fit parent?

Thanks for posting this article Amy. My girlfriend and I have been reading your articles for several years. I recently saw my 15-yr-old daughter, at her confirmation, for the first time in 5 years. She saw me. I waved to her. But she would not walk 30 feet to say hello. Not in front of her mother. People do need to understand that PAD is real and it hurts.

I know that Parental Alienation Syndrome is a real affliction, because I experienced it as a child. My mother illegally excluded my father from my life for over 6 years, spending that time brainwashing me into believing my dad was, well, garbage. She accused him of domestic violence, but ALL my memories of domestic violence were her assaulting him. With my father gone, there was no-one around to advocate for or protect us from the horrific physical abuse meted out to us by our step-father, or the terrible mental and emotional abuse of our mother. My mother--with the blessings of the courts and society--booted my father out of my life for 6-years; it took another 6 years for me to work past the brainwashing and START to form a relationship with him, to START to see him as a human being, not the pile of garbage I had been brainwashed into believing he was...and he died 4 years later, before we had fully bonded again. Needless to say, both of our lives were immeasurably--and needlessly--impoverished by Parental Alienation Syndrome. My father was a good, decent man; not perfect, flawed as all humans are, but a good man nonetheless; he didn't deserve this--no human being deserves that. For NOW to deny the existence of PAS is like denying the reality of Battered Woman Syndrome. I find NOWs denial of PAS particularly absurd in light of studies that show that from an early age, Relational Aggression is the favored form of aggression by females (Crick & Grotpeter, 1995), ie, little girls tend not to hit their adversary, but to sabotage their peer relations instead...if Jane is inclined to spread false rumors about Johnny in kindergarten to socially isolate and punish him, why is it so unfathomable that she might do the same thing to him viz his children at a later date? Parental Alienation Syndrome is real, and all of NOWs histrionics simply resemble the rantings of those fools and racist ideologues that deny the Holocaust ever happened.

I understand the issue of PAS, and I think that inclusion in the DSM is a good idea since so much junk science is already included one more won't make much difference.
But I think men need a wake up call and I am all for NOW's position on this. From a world wide perspective, most countries agree that children belong with the Mother unless substantial evidence can show she is unfit. Men's only responsiblility is to make money and pay for infrastructure. Other than that, they have no say in the matter. It is really important that men learn their place in the new world order--beneath women. Women are far less expendable than men. Women are important from an economic standpoint in they account for 9 out of 10 marketing dollars. Without women, businesses would be in very bad shape. Really the only thing that men are good for is to fix things around the house and to make sure that women have adequate means to garner more material goods and to pay life's necessities. Look at Bees for instance. We don't question bees' perspective on hive living:
male bees are the drones, and the females are the queen's that keep the hive in existence. Let's also put to rest the implication that Feminists
are responsible for the plight of Dads with respect to their divorced wives. Male Judges outnumber female judges by at least 8-1. These are male judges that are making these decisions, not females. Young men and college men in particular must learn that they are there only for the benefit of society--and by society what we really is women. So men, quit your whining and do what you do best--go to work and SEND ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!