I just heard a liberal the other day say with a straight face that Park51 is not a mosque but rather a culteral outreach center. Yes, it has a mosque in it he admitted but it is not a mosque.

They think we are all stupid.

Those muslims defending the building are lying when they say it is for cultural outreach. It is clearly a victory shrine. It is a symbol of conquest!

I don't agree with the author's final conclusion because I do believe that it's a huge stab in the heart by a group of folks who happen to be Muslim. I bet that when they conceived of the project they were counting on the age-old stereotype that Americans will allow anything to happen ... if enough money is put on the table.

As a counterpoint to this article, I would encourage you to read this posting by Andrew McCarthy:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/244406/ground-zero-thought-experiment-andy-mccarthy

As to the issue Amy drew out of it, I've long known that there's a liberal ruling class of elitists who will say anything to get their way. Up until now the easiest way was to simply call anyone who disagrees with them a: hater, racist, bigot, etc.

Thanks to the growth of alternative media and social networking this isn't going to work anymore.

If this was truly about healing, there would instead be a memorial or some sort of center dedicated to the victims of the attack, not the victors/perps...If this was about healing, they wouldn't be hard on for this location, particularly in light of the huge controversy that it has caused.

Legality and constitutionality aside, this is in exceedingly bad taste. If there was a musuem dedicated to Neo-Nazi skinheads going up near the Holocaust musuem, you'd better believe I'd be against that too.

I've had arguments with some of my friends on this where they try the whole "tolerance" argument. Not so. There is a difference between tolerance and having your collective national face shoved into something. That the President felt he needed to get involved and remind the American people of the First Amendment...pathetic. No one is arguing on the grounds of the First Amendment. But, dammit, the First Amendment also covers free speech and that's a right that a huge number of Americans are exercising right now. The goal being to not somehow make this illegal, as Big Brother isn't the answer, but rather to exert enough pressure to prevent it from going up to start with.

Mosque/community center, call it what you will. I call it a slap in the face and akin to dancing on the graves of 3000 Americans.

The elites are just ignorant of the nastiness inflicted(subtlely or otherwise) by the twofaced islamic mass or mob on the nonbelievers masses.
So, what can we expect from the blissfully ignorant elites who don't live in the real harsh world? Perhaps an apology for trying to threaten us peaceloving nonbelievers?
All the public relation in the world by anyone who is trying to deny the atrocity of the islamic world is not going to work because we, the nonbelievers, who have to live in the real harsh world know and seen the real nasty face of their islam and have a right to be wary of an extremely inconsiderate selfinterest groups associated with an alien ideology who did too many bad things in the past.

The Pentagon, which was also attacked on 9/11, has a mosque in it. Is the Pentagon a mosque? Should Muslims be allowed to work at the Pentagon after 9/11? Discuss in a rational, level-headed manner.

@ franko:

You are incorrect. It is an ecumenical chapel that is open to members of all faiths to come, pray and worship.

Muslims whose clearances have not been revoked for cause ought to be, and still are allowed to work at the Pentagon. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

@franko - why should we discuss anything you bring up in a "rational, level-headed manner" when literally everything you offer is in bad faith?

I'm interested in a comparison of this and Mt St Helens. The government took private land and made it a memorial forest there. Less than 1% as many people died there add on 9/11. Yet somehow the government has no precedent to interfere here?

"Should Muslims be allowed to work at the Pentagon after 9/11? Discuss in a rational, level-headed manner."

I would say, since they belong to "religion" who states in plain english the entire wold must be converted or killed, they have no business working in our government at all. Just like a fundamentalist prolifer has no business working at planned parenthood. There are beliefs people can hold that invalidate them for some work. Period.

then liberals must see a nation of bigots,

If there's a general statement that can be made about contemporary Liberalism, it's that one.

I spend a lot of time around Progressives due to my work and where I live. So I'm intimately familiar with their culture and attitudes. They really do believe that just over the horizon live hordes of night riding racists and wife beaters despoiling the earth in pursuit of their craven desires. Their image of America is almost pornographic. It's also very self flattering.

Their charge of bigotry isn't just intended to shut down disagreement though, it's a justification as well. By casting others as sub-human they can justify their anti-democratic practices and ambitions. How can you allow such a wicked and corrupt society to rule itself, they'll just continue to oppress each and will eventually destroy the Earth. So authoritarianism is necessary to save them from themselves. Of course that authority will lay with Progressives.

I keep feeling like, if the extreme liberals think Europe (or for Bill Mahr, China) is so great, why don't they move there? Or how about we take one part of the USA and let that be liberal-land and a separate nation. Then we can all find out if they're right. If they have one area full of liberals and do all the stuff they want, does it work? But they have to accept that they're their own country now, and we won't help them or defend them - they gotta do it themselves.

I'm a Christian and have Muslim friends. They celebrate Ramadan and have no problem with the fact that I celebrate Christmas. I think most Muslims really are peaceful people. But the extremists are terrifying. And putting a mosque right near ground zero is inappropriate.

I've had arguments with some of my friends on this where they try the whole "tolerance" argument.

Ask them if they'd support Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church if they where attempting to set up an outreach ministry in the Castro district of San Francisco?

Ever since 9/11, it has become clear that "progressives" are far more afraid of the American majority than they are of Islamic terrorists. They view us as dangerous beasts, and themselves as an intellectual Army of Occupation, striving valiantly to keep the beasts under control.

"I'm a Christian and have Muslim friends. They celebrate Ramadan and have no problem with the fact that I celebrate Christmas. I think most Muslims really are peaceful people."

@KrisL: I think a more accurate statement would be that most Muslims lack the knowledge and/or commitment to truly adhere to their religion in the purest sense....as I told someone else just today--I trust the Muslims who aren't devout. Those who aren't devout enough to be dangerous..

@David Foster: Zactly.

It's not just a tactic for shutting down debate, or demonizing the political opposition. So many progressives can't stop themselves from pointing their fingers at everyone else & screaming "bigot!" for the same reason that so many morbidly obese people can't say no to another jelly donut - because it makes them feel so good. Fervent Ground Zero mosque supporters can google 911 Hard Hat Pledge the same as anyone else. Somewhere in the rational part of their minds they must know that all this sound & fury signifies nothing, because that mosque can't build itself, and no one will be able to round up enough construction workers to get it built at that location. But they can't help themselves.

Goddess:
saying something's all about bigotry is a highly effective conversation ender.
- - - - - - - - - - -
I'll have to remember that for the next gay-rights thread...

The attitude that Mayor Bloomberg and his ilk display towards the rest of the American people who disagree with the appropriateness of the Ground Zero mosque is exactly the same kind of totalitarian mindset that Lenin and Pol Pot displayed towards their own people. We, the unwashed masses, are a bunch of ignoramuses in their eyes that must be educated and prodded towards what they consider to be enlightened behavior that fits with their ideology in order to achieve utopia. Anyone who therefore disagrees with them must be labeled the enemy or in this case bigoted or racist.

"then liberals must see a nation of bigots"...

I prefer the word "leftists", but the point stands: They do. Leftism is basically the politics of narcissism. Leftists really do believe that they are superior to everyone else.

"The NYT calls the centre nothing less than 'a monument to tolerance'."

Of course, it is no such thing. If the Saudis allowed a Baptist church to operate openly in Mecca, that would be a monument to tolerance. The Cordoba House is tantamount to the Nazis mounting a swastika on top of the Arc de Triomphe. (My apologies for the Godwin's Law violation, but I think it's in context here.)

"After 9/11, George W Bush called Islam a 'peaceful religion' and urged tolerance. "

I understand why W said that at the time -- emotions were at a fever pitch, and W wanted to squelch any thoughts of civil war. But we've since learned that his statement was incorrect. Islam has responded to the world's tolerance since 9/11 with the Madrid and London train bombings, the Bombay attacks, the Bali night club bombings, countless more that I've forgotten, the utterly inhumane Iraqi insurrection, the radicalization and destruction of Gaza, etc etc etc. Islam has no interest in co-existing with anything -- not even itself, really. It is a religion that worships omnicide.

"Nihilists! F**k me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."

And that's ultimately what Islam is. Nihilism, codified. Which also explains why certain parts of the "progressive" movement find Islam so appealing.

When peaceful Muslims stand on a mountain top and condemn, very loudly, the atrocities perpetrated by their radical brethren, then we can have a discussion on tolerance, until then, no deal on the GZM.

http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=5568075

A fine example of what I am talking about when I use the term "intellectual Army of Occupation" is provided by Jim Leach, chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Where was Barry during the cartoon escapade?

I mean, building a mosque=good, protesters=bigots; drawing a cartoon = bigots, protesters=good?

How many of their creepy islamic mosques do those islamic people need in the world to kill us nonbelievers? It is really cruel and most inappropriate of those cruel islamic people to build another huge horrible mosques after killing so many innocent nonbelievers.

The fact is there are no peaceful moslem.
They only pretended to be peaceful when they have no nonbeliever support or no western support for their evil islamic cause.

What is wrong with hating groups of nasty racist islamic people who tried to ruin our nonbelievers quality lifes with every type of evils?
I am surrounded by insane islamic/oriental/asiatic influenced people who together with their nasty islamic community have inflicted fear after fear throughout my life with their endless stupid policies. It is only normal that I hate these type of nasty islamic idiots that inflicted so much misery on my life and on this planet.

To me the clearest answer to this statement, "The NYT calls the centre nothing less than 'a monument to tolerance'." Is the simple concept if 100 million people are calling it an insult, you are intolerant if you don't scrap the project.

Another disgusting loud mosque will only bring more evil, poverty, divisiveness and conflict to America and America don't need that.

Many nonbelievers rightly opposed the building of the mosque because to imply that mosque is not link to any terror is just naive. Because their islamic mosques are linked to an alien terror ideology and we, the nonbelievers have a right to strongly oppose it in the free world. There is no no need for their islamic related terror/crime or the evil of their islamic community to dominate our nonbelievers life.

Does anyone know of a book or books that chronicle the evolution of Islam from the early Turks to now? I know how violent the Quran (or whatever the correct spelling is) is, but I wonder why the Turks were so tolerant of Jews and Christians in their conquests across Europe several centuries ago, especially compared to today's yahoos.

A friend who writes a magazine for women in the Middle East that would like to go to school in the U.S. has told me that when she was growing up with Muslim parents in Saudia Arabia two decades ago, she and all of her friends wore jeans and only the headscarf, and that no one she knew took the Quran literally, similarly, she suggested, to the way that modern Jews don't take Leviticus literally. So why did this transition happen?

If anyone knows a book, I want to read it, because I'm really curious.

Wow, so much hate here.

You know that A) the Cultural Center (or mosque, whatever you want to call it) is not at ground zero, but is in fact 2 blocks away and B)there are currently two other legitimate mosques in the same neighborhood within this 2 block area?

Also, I feel the Nazi/holocaust analogy is a poor one. I think putting a German cultural center next to a holocaust museum would be more accurate in describing this situation.

But there I go again! An "intellectual leftist" letting thinking and logic get in the way of passionate patriotic fervor.

Wait, didn't someone mention Nazis? History anyone?

@dunn

I'm about as unpatriotic as you can get (depending on your interpretation of the word). I hate all the jingoistic rhetoric that the intellectually lazy use in place of real thinking.

Never the less, I have reservations about their true motivations for situating the mosque there. I strongly suspect this is nothing more than a sly, deliberate, middle finger to all of America.

Well, surprise, surprise. The "moderate" Ground Zero imam turns out not to be so moderate after all:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673

Will this "cultural center" include a display on the destruction and murder that occured only two blocks down the street...and will it include a strong condemnation of that destruction and of the motives of the perpetrators?

Dick Cavett makes a good point:

"Our goal in at least one of our Middle East wars is to rebuild a government in our own image — with democracy for all. Instead, we are rebuilding ourselves in the image of those who detest us. I hate to see my country — and it’s a hell of a good one — endorse what we purport to hate, besmirching what distinguishes us from countries where persecution rules."

It's a dumb point. As if there's the slightest comparison between us and say, Saudi Arabia. Anyway, we're not rebuilding ourselves in the image of those who detest us; all we want is to keep them from rubbing salt in the wounds they've inflicted on us.

Jessica F, those middleseatern, turks, etc were only pretending to be tolerant because they were at that time economically lost in their desert and educationally illiterate. They became more intolerant and fiecely authoritarian as they got rich support from westerner and got richer. Even in malaysia also, those malayislamic people were reportedly were not as nasty when when malaysia was in the mostly jungle era. but after more advanced foregners came and helped to develop stinking malaysia, those malayislamic people became more intolerant and more nasty. that is an unpleasant reality.

Now, the islamic people all around the world are ruining their socalled country with their extreme intolerance, extreme greed in their top hierachy, extreme political instability, their violence(which erupt quite frequently in their poverty stricken world that their islam ruined and damaged) and trying to ruin the whole world as well. Disgusting people. When the islamic people are not as rich anymore with their filty petrodollar, most nonbelievers will be less afraid of their cruel islamic people.

Of course, when those islamic people who can hate us, nonbelievers so much as to want to kill us or destroy our living opportunities or prevent us from having equal opportunites to advance, then we, the nonbelievers can also can hate them as much, if not more.

dunn, German Nazi is history. No longer happenning. But islam nazisim is stil alive. We, the nonbelievers is just sick and tired of islamic pretentious world. sick of their mosques. sick of their hypocrisy. sick of their misrule. sick of their greed. sick of their violence. sick of their islamic people.

I've taken the time to compile a bunch of related info on Daisy Khan, the wife of the Imam behind the Ground Zero mosque. She's a real piece of work!

Just another one of their disgusting islamic hypocrisy at work. The way they make use of their islamic women with or without their headgear to promote their too many evil islamic cause is just too disgusting.

@dunn - No hate, only reason. There is no such thing as an "intellectual leftist", for if there were they would comprehend the abject failure of every one of their beliefs wherever they have been implemented.

The building in question is, in fact, a PART of Ground Zero. One of the landing gear from one of the planes went through the building, prompting Burlington Coat Factory to close the location.

The existence of other mosques or houses of worship of any kind in the neighborhood is utterly irrelevant.

You, and others who think like you, are mistaking aggression for outreach due to your complete lack of understanding about islam. When the muslims stake a claim on land they have conquered, they destroy any monuments that the previous culture had, and replace them with mosques. This is the closest they're ever going to get to replacing the twin towers (regarded by bin Laden as a monument to American greed) with a mosque. But Ground Zero is to America as the Temple Mount is to Israel.

@franko - as usual, wrong. Cavett doesn't make a good point, he makes a stupid one. Would he have approved of our building a war memorial for Americans in Dresden?

I think the single biggest fault of American Leftists is their irrational willingness to use the language of the enemy, thereby lending him aid and comfort. It's a kind of soft treason.