It's limiting.

I know plenty of people with piercings and tattoos good jobs, but it is limiting.

If she's not aware of that, she's an idiot. Having said that, the guy was a bit dickish about it with his paper bag content. But she needs to know its limiting, she's drawing from a smaller pool of jobs, and needs to target accordingly.

She could work in a tattoo parlor, fetish shop, piercing parlor. She could probably work as a computer programmer or tech support person. She could work for an alternative website, or a pornagraphic one (as a model if she's pretty, as a programmer or other support position if she's not and the company is big enough). She could work for an alternative magazine. She could work in a coffee shop in a college town. She could start a small business, catering to the alternative community. It would be a niche market, but sometimes its easier to serve a niche than the community at large.

Senior year of college, I dyed my green hair back to brown for precisely this reason. It's been brown ever since. I suppose it will eventually be gray. My one concession to alternativeness is growing it long (not that long, but I definitely look crunchy when its down), but that is easily conservatived by rolling it into a bun. I did this because even though I thought green hair was pretty, I realized it was limiting. (It really was pretty. I know that sounds strange to some people, but bright green is a good color on me.)

I agree with her that it "shouldn't" be that way, that people "shouldn't" judge your ability to do the job by the way you express yourself through clothing... but they do. "Should" and "shouldn't" don't come into it, especially in this economy.

I'm not saying don't put these limitations on yourself, but if you do, be realistic and target your job hunt accordingly.

I stepped into a Wendy's in Wisconsin a few years ago, and the counterperson was the poster child for gum disease. How the manager could ever put her in position to smile at the customers was beyond me.

Your appearance advertises what the company is about. Though I enjoy people dressed as if they were attending DragonCon in costume, many do not, and it is from these many that your paycheck will come.

Unfortunately, I have people who are close to me who live in the mindset that things like jobs, respect, a chance to get ahead, and a comfortable living are all rights that every person deserves. Their reasoning: "We live in the richest country in the world and nobody should have to suffer."

They are waiting for everything to be handed to them. They vote for the candidates who they think are going to fix things for them. Rich people who have "more than they need" are greedy and selfish, and so they believe that this is a problem that needs to be fixed by lowering taxes for the poor, taxing and capping the salaries on the rich, and letting that pay for things that the less fortunate deserve.

Not surprisingly, these people struggle the most in life, and of course place the blame externally. It's not their fault they're stuck in life. They are all forced to be victims by an unfair world. Some of them are 40 years old, never held a solid job in their life, but still refuse to change their mindset.

My sister in law is very like her. Visible tattoos and piercings. She even has her cheeks pierced to look like dimple because she thinks it cute. Its not. She has been over to my house on many occasions and invited a horde of her friends to come with. Seems they all get into a car and all go the same place just because one person needs to go there. These pierced and tattood people came into my house and immediately went for the fridge. Like they lived at my house. My husband kept me from saying anything the first few times because his mom would get mad but after a few times I told him he needed to say something or I would. By this time my house became known as "the place with all the food" and if she said she needed to come over here they would happily drive her and everyone would jump in the car.

Now over the years I observed a few things from a sample of more than a hundred of these over 18 children. First observation: All of them were jobless, or worked fast food- clear into their 30's. Two: They all smoked pot and most used ecstasy-especially if there was a rave. Three: Every last one of them had a record and not for drug possession. Burglary, theft, violent acts type stuff.. Four: Everything bad that was happening to them was the fault of another person. Five: They had all this money to do piercings and tatoos but regularly had their lights cut off or some other utility turned off. They even would give Hubby and I recommendations on which bill to not pay so we could loan them money.. ya know cause the Nashville electric and cable wont cut you off for 3 months and then they have to work with you.. Then we told them we paid our bills every month and didn't get things cut off. Big mistake. After that they bugged us to just give them money because we had so much of it. Had one guy in his thirties ask for cash for gas, cause he brought hubby's sister over and that was a HUGE favor to us apparently. I was 23 and hubby was 26.

Having known all these people, experienced the boundary issues they have and complete lack of self responsibility I can honestly say I wouldn't hire her. Her response is a very good clue to her personality.. It hurt her feeling. Its her choice to put a bunch of metal in her face but your responsibility to hire her and pretend its not there..

Here is a good rule for people. If one of your choices results in a responsibility for someone else, you have a problem. Failure to think things out on your part does not constitute a emergency/responsibility on another's part..

Or as a friend who host for a restaurant down town said to me- " I don't let mouthy people without reservations in. The one who is yelling at you at the entrance will yell at you the whole time they are there..

Same thing. The one who makes demands that you conform to them will have endless demand if you hire them. And that goes for any group of people. Yes there are people who will behave but the yellers wont ever.. Why go through that kind of misery..

And yes I did snap and throw everyone out. Ordered pizza they showed up and ate it all while I was on the porch talking to my MIL. MY kids wound up eating PB&J when I had just spent 30$ on food. My house went from "the place with all the food" to "the house where that bitch lives" real quick.. MY mother in law did not speak to me for 2 years. I was perfectly content with her silence. Unfortunately we made up..

"He said he saw his place in the world as one of responsibilities and they see theirs as one of rights -- meaning, the world owes them."

Is it a matter of age/maturity? Or is this truly a here-to-say characteristic of the current generation of 20-somethings?

And sorry about my punctiation errors an lack of s's at the end of a few words.. Lack of sleep due to teething infant. so sorry I made all of you suffer with me..

"I can't remember if I blogged this, but I asked my friend, Lawyer Tom, the biggest difference between himself and the young associates he hires."

In my experience, asking lawyers about how they manage employees is like asking very short, fat men about how they play center in basketball: they are not equipped to do it, and can, at the very best, only describe how others do it competently.

I attribute this entitlement attitude to the recent trend in helicopter parenting. If a child is never held accountable for their actions, they will rarely become responsible adults.

I find parallels between the tattoo/piercing crowd and the feminists ... neither of whom want to have to put effort into attracting a mate or an employer. I'll go back to my earlier observation that as a social people, we've evolved to depend heavily on appearance to make judgments about our fellow man. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter or wont' affect you.

I don't understand the lawyer management crack. All firms with multiple employees need managers. People management skills are not trained, they are always learned through experience. Lawyers aren't any worse at this than any other type of professional ... i.e. its pretty much up to the skills of the individual as to the type of manager they become. In fact, I would wager that my profession, engineering, produces the worst managers as we are mostly bereft of social skills to begin with.

I happen to like tattoos and piercings, although I only have one (normally covered) tattoo myself. But the people who are into that stuff have to understand: While you have the right to "be yourself", there might be consequences to that, and you have to be prepared to accept them. A limitation in job prospects is one. People making assumptions about your lifestyle is another.

This seems like a case of dick meets special snowflake. I say special snowflake because it takes that mentality to talk to a reporter because someone was mean to you.

But he really could have worded that better. His job is to help people find work, not Judge Judy them into some sense. Something like, "Businesses put a lot of emphasis on how you look, no matter how good at the job you might be. If you keep them in, you'll still have job opportunities, but you'll be limiting yourself. You'll have to make that choice."

OK, gotta say my experienced with tattooed people is not the same as Josephine's! The ones I know have jobs, mostly in computer programming or similar.

And, why yes, many of them DO attend DragonCon!

I would think long and hard before hiring anyone with those facial piercings.

They indicate to me a lack of awareness about social cues and mores. Or even worse, a complete disregard for them.

People WILL make assumptions on appearance. Employees DO represent their employers.

Quickly categorizing people into the "plays well with others" or "runs with scissors" is exactly the kind of info a hirer uses. And with so many people competing for jobs, employers can afford to be selective.

I have multiple tattoos that are visible if I want them to be but I am able to cover them with clothing. It's not hard to do. It's not as limiting as everyone seems to think. I work as an accounting clerk in a big organization.

josephineMO7, nice way to pigeon hole people! What you have an issue with isn't people with tattoos but deadbeats who happen to have tattoos. I know many peeople with body art who own homes, cars, and take very good care of their kids. It's unfortunate your sister in law is a waste of space and hangs out with similar people.

I have tattoos and I work in a law firm and our employee handbook states no visible tattoos in the office. The bulk of them are easily covered and not an issue for me at work. However, I got one on my bicep this summer knowing full well this would have to remain covered in the office. It was my choice to get inked there, but it's my responsibility to keep it covered. My lifestyle choice should not be my employer's problem. When my daughters started getting tattoos I reminded them that they should consider where they put them because even though tattoos have become increasingly popular, people would still judge them based on their appearance. I also told them that at some point in the future tattoos may fall out of favor and could potentially be problematic for them in the real world. Needless to say, my oldest has partial sleeves on both arms...she works as a cocktail waitress. Thankfully she found an employer that doesnt' consider it an issue.

Tattoos will not be viewed favorably in Japan.

Life is unfair. I don't have Bill Gates' money. On the other hand, I'm alive, employed, and in good health.

I also believe that there is a disconnect between the facially pierced, unemployed woman and potential employers.

To her, I bet her piercings are meaningful and indicate her bold and artistic individuality.

To an employer they may indicate that she is a socially oblivious freak that shows poor judgment.

I'm not surprised they aren't jumping to hire her.

Dh and I both have tatoos, and I used to have body piercings. All coverable in the average workplace. WHile I don't assume bodywork=trash, I DO assume people who have sleeves, or tats on their neck (ick!) or their kids names on the ankle or the like are not interested in fitting into "traditional" society, so I would not hire them for a traditional job.

Nicolek,

I have really good friends who go to dragoncon. My husband helped start mtac here in Tennessee. I know people who have tattoos that they cover up for work. I was talking about people who live the lifestyle. I was talking about people who go all out with peircings and tattoos to the point where you couldn't see their faces for all the distraction. As I said I am sure there are some people who are like this who are great people. Work hard and live well. If thats the type you know- who go all out but have thier shit together then that is what you come away with. And if they are going to dragon con they must be doing something right cause that ain't cheap. Hubby had an offer to go but he didn't want to go all the way to Atlanta leaving me with a 6 month old.

Anyhow, I think you may know the minority if you know people with piercings and deliberately visible tats.. I have a few friends who are Into it like I said but I know maybe 5. But. Those are people my husband and I attracted as friends. We have expectations of people and if they don't live up to them we don't bother talking to them. And by expectations I am referring to behaviors not looks. My sister inlaw however attracts people more like herself. Stupid, and I mean that in a *she should have know better but didn't * way, lazy, belligerent, juvenile and with a real big everybody owes me attitude. For every one person who is friends with me that does piercing and behaves she has 25 around her that are useless and have boundary issues.. My friends are the minority in that culture and I recognize that.

*****Quickly categorizing people into the "plays well with others" or "runs with scissors" is exactly the kind of info a hirer uses. And with so many people competing for jobs, employers can afford to be selective. *****

Exactly. Also, I work in accounting and I have four tattoos, three of which are always covered up with normal clothing.

The fourth one is on my ankle, and I agonized over it a long time, specifically because I knew it would be possible that some future employer would not like it and therefore not hire me. I also made sure it was a very "acceptable" design (a Celtic knot shamrock) so as to minimize the impact it might have on people. If I'm wearing slacks it's not visible, but in a skirt, absolutely.

And, having it there was my choice and it's my responsibility to accept the consequences of that choice.

"This is my lifestyle." Bullshit!

One can be true to herself without rendering herself too freakish to make a living. I have multiple tattoos. I got my first one at 19. Even then, when my career goal was to climb the corporate ladder at Hot Topic, I knew better than to get it anywhere it wouldn't be covered up by regular work clothes. Visible piercings I kept to my ears, my tongue, and a small gem in my nose - nothing that would cause noticeable disfigurement when I decided to get a "grown up" job and remove them. I'm able to put on a suit and pumps and do my job, then go home at night, put on a pair of leather pants and a vinyl halter and show off my body art in a appropriate forum. I never felt my "lifestyle" was being suppressed.

The young woman in the article might be unemployable, but what does that matter to an Englishwoman? She won't go homeless, hungry, or without medical care even if she never works a day in her life.

She needs to explore the concept of context. The guy did her a favor.

Kendra,

I never said I had a problem with tats. I get that you have a few. You had the good sense to put them where they could be covered. That ability to reason well and make good decisions is why you have work opportunities and my sil, who actually got a full frontal tat to look like a rosy lace negligee, has to beg for a job at Wendy's. You are not the type of person I am talking about. You are the minority that is considerate of other people. And yes I had a problem with the deadbeat tendencies of my sil's friends.. The overwhelming majority of people I have met with tats and piercing have been like my sil. My hubby's buddy John has several tats and several piercings in his nose, ears and lip but has never hit me up for gas money or a "loan".. And he likes anime.. which helps.. So him I respect but he is one of 5 in a sea of indecent un-respectable idiots.

See you are are defending others on the assumption that they are like you. That most people who have 1 trait in common with you are responsible and handle their business. That is not necessarily the case.. Walk through a trailer park or the project.. You are severely outnumbered. So are my few tattooed friends..

Let me put this another way. I am Catholic.. I am a libertarian- borderline anarchist- and I have very stringent beliefs on money & liberty issues. I would like to believe that I am in the majority but I am not. Most of the people I go to church with are outright commies. They have openly discussed their belief that bill gates should have everything he owns taken from him so it can be passed out to everyone else. I pointed out that they didn't earn it and these people told me in all seriousness that he didn't either. I wish they were more like me but no. They want everything redistributed and believe Jesus would too. I Made the mistake once of pointing out that Jesus said a man who will not work should not eat. I was nearly crucified for it..

I don't speak for Catholics or anyone else when I talk. I don't defend the polices my diocese comes up with just because I am catholic too. I don't take offense at slights towards Catholics.

Most people who share your like for tats are not like you. If you ever visit Tn. I would happily round a few hundred up and introduce you.

Momof4,

Exactly. But they will demand you accept them how they are. And after you hire them they will demand you be tolerant of a whole host of tendencies they have.. Tattoos are a decoration, of varying degrees of sentimentality and type, the mindset of those in the "lifestyle choice" is not the same as someone who just has a few tats..

However one thing. I don't consider anyone trash.. Even my SIL is just a person who is making dumb decisions right now. And she could change my opinion of her without removing a single bolt or ear stretcher..

Yes, visible piercings and tattoos limit the pool of jobs available to you. Yes, this woman sounds irritating.

However, I am 25, and all I feel entitled to in the workplace is basic respect and to have co-workers who do their jobs well. Or at least try to do their jobs well. In my working life (since 15, so only 10 years) I have been much more dedicated and much more capable, frankly, than many of my older co-workers. I learned a lot from the notable exceptions but I nonetheless get really irritated by Lawyer Tom every time he is quoted here.

Josephine: my niece is cut from the same cloth as your SIL.

She got pregnant at 16, dropped out of high school (and never finished even when provided with a tutor). She has facial piercings and a couple of indiscreet tattoos. She broke up with the baby daddy because he "wasn't fun anymore." She dumps the kid (now a toddler) on anyone that will allow it and takes off for 3 day breaks. All because "life isn't fair." And she "never got to have fun" as a teen.

She has never had a job. She applied to a community college and they rejected her. And she has no clue why since she is so very smart. She'll tell you so if you let her.

Basically, I have zero respect for her. I will not support or enable her crappy choices nor do I have any sympathy when she sucks my soft-hearted mother into her schemes.

The niece is a user and won't let myself be used.

Laura,

I wish I had that freedom when hubby and I were young. My sil has done the same thing. Oh except when she got pregant with the first she got to 6 months before she realized she was pregnant. Hit us up for 3 grand so she could go to Texas and have an abortion.We are prolife but she just knew the baby was messed up from all the drugs she had done so we had to give her the money. She, the baby, is a beautiful little girl whom I adore. Another thing- my mil always says great stuff about her new boyfriends.. Until she tires of them and then they are instantly losers. They have learned better than to do this crap to me. I told hubby I didn't put up with this from my family and I going to from his either..

Humans are a social animal and will be social with those that appear or act similar. First and foremost, this is a discussion about what a person is perceived to be and not who they really are. Not a discussion of their personality, experiences or work-place abilities. This is a discussion of a first-impression, gut-reaction response to seeing another person’s physical appearance (regardless of how often flawed or inaccurate it may be).

What constitutes crossing the border of ‘body art’ is somewhat like Justice Stewart’s quote on hard-core pornography: (I can’t really define it but) “I know it when I see it”. Having a ‘usual’ set of piercings or few tattoos is considered socially acceptable (much more so than even 10 years ago). However, there is the gray-zone of going from belly-button, multiple ear, nose stud and/or tongue piercing into ear gaging, cheek/lip/eyebrow piercing to outright self-mutilation. There are the usual ankle/foot adornments, tribal arm bands, tramp-stamps and back-of-neck Chinese characters that you thought meant ‘love’ but really mean ‘pork’ and there are the full sleeves, hand, facial and neck tattoos (though not including chest, back, pelvis and thigh tattoos that are not meant for usual public viewing).

I guess the issue trying to be articulated is there is a line traversed between trying to subtlety express your individuality that crosses into shoving your ‘individuality’ into other’s faces (while also thumbing your nose at society). What constitutes this line is ever changing: in the 50s any visible tattoo would have been scandalous, multiple ear piercings absurd; currently it is commonplace. Indeed, I would predict that if you wait another 20-30 years the pendulum will swing the other way and our level of tattoos and piercings considered ‘extreme’. However, it is the ‘crossing the line’ that we are discussing.

Although there is a gray-zone, you know when you are crossing over—it is the social mores of the given time we are all familiar with. And I will wager that these who ‘cross the line’ do so willingly and with full knowledge they are shoving their ‘individuality’ into everyone else’s face. They full-well know what they are doing and want to appear three standard deviations outside of norm to achieve it. But when society ‘calls their bluff’, by not offering them jobs or status, they get all butt-hurt that they are not treated like everyone else.

**News Flash** People are always going to treat you based on first physical impressions. Potential mates, employers, strangers, the person sitting across from you on the subway will always judge you based on your appearance (again, regardless of how flawed that judgment may be).

Stop complaining and get used to it.

A man who works in one of the departments I manage has two full sleeves - some of the work pretty good, some rather garish to my eye - plus "interesting" hair and gauges in his ears. While he is excellent at his job, and friendly and outgoing, he'll never progress at the company. We're in a conservative industry, and could never allow him to have face-to-face contact with our conservative customers. This means he can never attend the trade shows that are pretty much a requirement for advancement. Thus, he is doomed to sit in a cubicle for the rest of his time with company, and never move up the career ladder. He may be satisfied with entry level work for all eternity. I was not, and made sure my one tattoo is easily covered in any reasonable business attire.

People need to remember that they live on Planet Earth, not Planet I-Should-Get-Everything-I-Want-And-Right-Now.

"She applied to a community college and they rejected her"

Oh snap, I'm going to use that one. I always thought admission to a community college was ministerial.

A couple of weeks ago I had my homeowner's policy re-written and the assistant at the insurance office couldn't seem to fax me a copy of the new policy to sign. so I took an hour off and went by the office. I was really quite shocked to arrive and find out she had 2 partially concealed titoos, in an otherwise professional setting. Very distracting. On the one hand they worked-she upsold me on some insurance for my sewer line. On the other hand, I suddenly realized the problem with the fax machine was in the user part of the user interface.

Professional women have made great strides in the last few decades by getting us to think of them as more than a pair of tits. Doesn't really help that cause when you go and draw on them.

This lady should move to Austin. She will find work here...if she gets a couple more tattoos, that is.

Can I say something?

No matter how anyone feels about nostril, nose bridge, or eyebrow peircings

NO ONE
ABSOLUTLY
NO ONE
LOOKS GOOD WITH LIP PIERCINGS

your face is a symetric triangle, and throwing off the symetry on the base is always unattractive

"Is it a matter of age/maturity? Or is this truly a here-to-say characteristic of the current generation of 20-somethings? " Gretchen, my totally unscientific observation is: your generation seems to be bifurcating. There's one segment that think that life owes them. The other segment has probably embraced responsibility more than the previous two generations (including mine) did.

Lifestyle choices like this have absolutely no place in the business world or any job that requires looking presentable in front of people. Sorry folks, but you have to conform if you want to work in a serious job. If you want to be a bouncer or a roadie go ahead with the tats and the weirdo pierced lips and such.

I see this all the time where I live, and most of them are in college. Maybe they grow up and get the right look, but I'm guessing not.

When you are in college getting indoctrinated, that is your business to look however you want, but when you are looking for a job, all the rules are made by the employer.

Someone above said that once they would get hired they would continue to try to push their lifestyle choices...I agree but would also add it is a lawsuit waiting to happen. If you don't hire them you don't have to worry about getting sued.

Josephine, sorry about your negative SIL experience! You're right, I don't know that many tattooed/extremely pierced people, and my pool is self-selected... most of 'em pretty preppy, even the pierced ones though they desperately want to convince people otherwise. I don't know what the ratio of irresponsible to responsible tattooed/pierced people is.

I'm young (still in my 20s). I'm inked (all hidden by a long sleeve blouse). And I still manage to be responsible. It's a modern miracle.

And if you want to talk about entitled attitudes, let's discuss why a good portion of my paycheck disappears into fucking social security.

"He said he saw his place in the world as one of responsibilities and they see theirs as one of rights -- meaning, the world owes them."

Really, I'm pretty sure people have been bemoaning some variation of this for the past, oh, 500 years.

""The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

^^As spoke Socrates, 2000 years ago.

I nonetheless get really irritated by Lawyer Tom every time he is quoted here.

So, Lawyer Tom's experiences are less valuable than your own?

Now, I know people with tatts that have their shit together. But I know lots more that are a couple of bricks shy of a load. A 'wild crowd' of them would occasionally descend upon my favorite bar to drink excessively, and two brothers claimed to be homeless, and try to bum beer, cigarettes, what have you.

But that wasn't the worst of it. They seemed to be unacquainted with the purpose of soap and water and stank to high heaven. We're talking about being able to peel wall paper and possibly raise the dead.

Would it have been rude to drag them out back, and hose off? fortunately, they've been banned from the bar, apparently permanently. Which is pretty astounding, as they'll pretty much let anyone back in after a cooling off period. Maybe they walked out on one too many bar tabs.

Cool post! How much stuff did you have to look up in order to write this one? I can tell you put some work in.

Maybe its going to the debt we owe China. They have us in their hip pocket as we cant even pay the interest on the loans unbelievable, and they just want to print more which is why I said if were going to blow 50 billion, put it on the border fencein the long run well save because we wont have so much crime, welfare freebies to pay, overun hospitals and schools, vandalism, law enforcement, prisoner costs, etchigh cost now but will help overall in long term