... so do the facts about how the brain grows and adapts confirm or contradict the "born that way" claim of gay activists?

The Brain That Changes Itself is an excellent book. I've given away about 7 copies thus far, to educators, scientists, and artists, and everyone who has read it has been blown away by it. It is well researched, brilliantly organized and very well written. It is an easy and engaging read backed up with a treasure trove of references.

Ben David, if the book provides an answer to the question of "born that way?" that answer is, "it's complicated."

For example, in once chapter of the book it is mentioned that some of the hormones that affect the brain are produced in the intestines. The book as a whole becomes an excellent case in point for viewing human beings as a whole system, and as open systems at that - we (each human being) have electrical and hormonal responses to what and who is around us, responses that affect everything from our sex drive, to what we learn, and how well we learn.

The book also lays the groundwork for the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual arousal (the latter being open to influence by childhood trauma), although I don't recall it putting a fine point on such a distinction.

When we add to that the recent discovery that some of the DNA "switches" that get flipped "on" by environmental influences may stay flipped "on" through several generations of progeny, the line between nature/ nurture gets blurred even more.

I think the book provides a context for understanding what we are and how we work, and suggests that we're just at the beginning of that understanding.

Thank you Amy for recommending such a great book.

...so do the facts about how the brain grows and adapts offer any hope of correcting the irrational hatred of homophobic bigots?

Silly me. The expression "homophobic bigots" is redundant.

Ben-David, do you still think that a citizen can be deprived of their rights or have them withheld if they don't have sex in a way you approve? Does this mean that you still hold the mistaken idea that gender is binary?

I showed you how to find that out for yourself, but you didn't look, I guess.

Again: search for the term, "Androgen Insensitivity". The resulting storm of information from accredited researchers should humble you.

If that happens, you can keep it a secret. I won't ask, so you won't have to tell.

Per Doidge's book, when parts of the brain are damaged, it actually seems that other parts can be trained to take over.

This is true, to a point.

The brain is plastic, but neuroplasticity has limits; and certain regions of the brain are specialized for certain functions. The alternative hypothesis - "mass action" - has been conclusively disproved. While the brain is somewhat adaptive, and there is some variation between individuals (especially as a function of handedness), there are specific regions of the brain that in nearly everyone are responsible for language, vision, motor control, memory formation, and executive function.

The brain becomes significantly less plastic as we age. A child may recover from an injury to the speech centers located in the left temporal lobe, but an adult with the same injury is likely to have pronounced deficits in language production, comprehension, or both, depending upon the magnitude of the lesion and it's location within that region). Similarly, damage to the occipital or parietal lobe is likely to result in problems seeing or perceiving objects.

The development process in the brain is characterized by the loss of many pathways (known as pruning) and the strengthening of others.

While it is true that with extensive therapy, some additional regions can be recruited to perform the function of damaged regions, and some skills can be retrained to work differently, the degree of recovery is usually quite limited in adult brain injuries. Prior to puberty, the outlook is better, but still circumscribed.

This type of thing is also good for victims of child abuse. Certain parts of your brain don't function properly and using certain techniques you can retrain your brain to work right.

For instance those who don't convey emotions properly. I had the bad habit of smiling when I was in pain, learned as a result of being told to smile and tell someone who had just done something horrible to me that I loved them. People would misunderstand this to think that I was happy they were hurting or that I was enjoying my own pain. You literally have a drawing of each emotion on your bathroom mirror and you have to ask your self which emotion you are feeling and make that face.

It's a hard way to go but I can now express emotions more or less they way I would have had I not suffered the abuse. I have tried to explain to my children that decisions are like a trickle of water slowly eroding the ground around it to become a stream. Over time making the same decision creates a
pattern, a habit if you want to call it that. This can be good or bad but the brain, if you consistently decide to act or be a certain way, the brain will grow in that direction.

Abuse causes certain parts of the brain to not grow but with the right therapy you can teach you brain to do the right things. It's why so much emphasis is put on teaching abused people to trust. If you can trust you can grow. If you don't trust others you will keep to your same habits. Learning to trust someone is a first emotion, learned at the mothers breast.. But if you never learn it it stunts everything else.

I hope this makes sense but as I made a happy face or an angry face In the mirror I gradually began to understand what I was feeling. I recognized it as the emotion I was going through. My brain literally changed. I went from not feeling much to really feeling and knowing what it meant.

It is wonderful that it is used, differently of coarse, in so many other areas. I have never been through any of those other things, such as loss of mental faculty, but it is good to know that it's possible to change.

Somewhat related, but during my ASL studies, I had heard about a Deaf woman who had suffered some minor brain damage, and lost her ability to think in terms of spatial relationships. When asked to describe her living room, for instance, several pieces of furniture were piled on top of each other, and there was nothing in the left side of the room. (In ASL, spatial relations are actually done more quickly than in spoken language, as in ASL, items are plotted and placed in the space in front of you.)

However, her ability to keep track of several people she was discussing was undiminished. Originally, they thought this was a function of spatial relations, but it seems the language region of her brain had taken this over. (In ASL, when you talk about people, you pretend they're present and create a space for them, then point to that spot whenever you refer to them. When you're talking about a bunch of people, you put them all around you, each person in a different spot.)

Michelle:
Ben David, if the book provides an answer to the question of "born that way?" that answer is, "it's complicated."
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Thanks for a mature response, that doesn't sink to name calling (bigot! Religious nut!) or casting sand in readers' eyes (fruit flies with 24 neurons and a 2-week life span exhibit homosexual behavior, so it must be normal for humans... now let's read a book about the incredible complexity of the human mind...)

Yes, it's complicated.
Huge amounts of PR lies and PC umbrage are deployed to hide that complexity.

Thanks for a mature response, that doesn't sink to name calling (bigot! Religious nut!) or casting sand in readers' eyes (fruit flies with 24 neurons and a 2-week life span exhibit homosexual behavior, so it must be normal for humans... Posted by: Ben David

Right, because humans are purly rational beings who never have any biological programing like every other life form on the planet.

And that is why from the moment our species was created out of dirt that no one has ever done anything irrational or primal, and there has never been any war, or individuals killing another for their food or women, and every system of gvernemnt has been perfect rational and never influenced by baser urges and its been a non stop orgy of scientific acheivement and cultural progression.

Oh, wait a minute, there is something wrong with your line of reasoning Ben

quote:
you go from post to post, spewing about homosexuality
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You are in charge of what gets posted here.

And you post things that contradict each other.

The rational/libertarian by-your-own-bootstraps stuff directly contradicts the "dating for chimps" and "born that way" stuff.

I just point out these internal contradictions.

You don't do a very good job addressing them, other than resorting to label-slapping - and your own obsessive dissing of religion, even though my posts on homosexuality hew entirely to actual behavior.

But it's easier to attack a Bible-thumping strawman of your own devising than to actually address my points.

So: how DOES the evidence of neuroplasticity jibe with the "born that way" claim - which as we've seen on previous posts, isn't even good genetics?