Did it work?

Hey, look! A "child development expert"!

When I see that, I wonder: how are the expert's kids doing in school?

And better yet, are they as capable as any Boy Scout?

I'm with Nicole. Parent aren't really supposed to have to do much as far as getting the kids to do their work. Hell I don't have to do much and I'm the teacher.

But yeah I second Nicole. Did it work?

The kid is FIFTEEN YEARS OLD - the time for this kind of parental molding has passed.

At this stage in the game, a wise parent provides structure and emotional support - and lets reality do the teaching.

The goal is to produce a SELF motivated person, remember?

I learned SO MUCH the year I had to make up a course in summer school.

Cut his allowance, and let him take a part-time job to learn about why he needs school.

He has to make the decision.

This stunt did not increase this kid's understanding of how the world works - and it taught him that he can't rely on the people he should be able to trust.

So where is the educational value?

Double thumbs-down on this awful parent.

I hesistate to give the thumbs down. As long as physical and emotional abuse aren't involved, I think it's up to parents to decide how to discipline thier kids. Was it humiliating? Yes. But we have all lived through humiliations and lived to tell.
However, I agree with Ben David. I don't think this was an effective punishment for the crime. My oldest 'forgot' to do a homework assignment, so for the next two weeks, I sat with him at the table and watched him do every single assignment. I was bored to death, and he hated the intrusion, but he got the message; forget your homework, and I'll be on you like white on rice.
So a half hearted thumbs down. They could have done something more effective.

The woman didn't beat him, at least, which my father surely would have done.

I believe this is a last resort of a woman who can't see which way to turn to get her son moving in the direction he should.

I'm with the general consensus on this one. Did it work? Not the most effective strategy, as her son will never trust her again, but if he gets a good education out of it....

I am all for public shame. In fact, I believe shame isn't used enough on youth today. People are so much more concerned with protecting thier precious little feelings that they don't force them to be accountable. But, when "child development experts" are so busy pushing "positive reinforcement" down everyones throats, it's hard for parents to know what to do. Positive reinforcment is good when appropriate, but blowing smoke up a kids ass to avoid hurting thier feeligs is bullshit. Sometimes, kids just need to learn that you don't get a gold star everytime you do something well. The world isn't gonna pat you on the back and say "'Atta boy!" every time you do a good job. Sometimes, you just do what you are suppossed to do because your suppossed to do it. And, kids also need to learn that when you screw up you should feel embarassed. That's part of how you learn. If you don't want to be embarrassed again then do better next time. When used properly, shame can be an effective tool for change.

However, I also think that the punishment needs to fit the crime. In this case, I am torn. I don't see evidence of the parents being actively involved in their son's education prior to this event, and I also don't understand why she waited until he was 15 to take action. By 15, kids are already jaded. His study habits should have been addressed long before then. But, if she has tried everything else, including tutors (if it can be afforded) and nothing worked, then I guess this could be an acceptable last resort to me. I guess I just don't know enough about it to judge it as a yay nor nay.

I say this is lazy, slipshod parenting. She hasn't made any effort to discover if there are real problems here.

All she's doing is seeing something she doesn't want in her kid and punish, punish, punish. Even her punishments indicate disinterested parenting.

Does she know this kid doesn't have a learning disability? Doesn't sound like she even asked.

There are so many things wrong with this picture.

First, to get it out front: it is up to parents to decide how to discipline their children. The so-called "experts" are fast to pass judgement when they know nothing about the individual situation.

That said, this situation illustrates three problems:

First, this mother waited far, far too long. Her son, at 15, is a lost cause.

Second, whatever the "experts" say, negative reinforcement is a valid tool: public embarrassment, writing lines after school, or even (heavens) a sharp rap on the knuckles. Our society has become allergic to an entire range of perfectly valid teaching tools.

Finally, the schools are almost certainly at fault for handling him with kid gloves. Odds are hekid has been "socially promoted" and is now totally out of his depth in school. Because he is out of his depth, he is bored. Because he is bored, he is disruptive: entertaining themselves by distracting other students and messing with the teachers.

"It's too late, baby, now it's too late."

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

"You can't make a recruit do anything. You can make him sorry he didn't." That last one is courtesy of the US Marine Corps, who wouldn't take this kid.

I always understood, and made sure my kids understood, that life is a series of choices. Ones you make today will preclude others you might want in the future. Too many parents aren't preparing their kids for life when they aren't around to take care of them.

I think we are living in the society that we live in now because previous generations saw what "public shaming" does - and got rid of it because it was a bad practice. I think the people who are "for it" are the ones that feel that THEIR rules will be in power. I am sure the likes of Sabrina might not be for the whole "public shaming" thing if she thought it might be her dragged in the street with "honk if you think I am a whore for having sex without being married" written on her sandwich board. Because seriously...WHO gets to make the public shaming rules???? WHO gets to put themselves up on the moral pedestal and define how much "holier" they are than the rest of the population?? I mean - I read this blog but I don't agree with even 1/2 of what gets posted. So - if public shaming is to be doled out is it me or Amy that gets to decide who gets "the sandwich board" treatment? An example?? Anti-abortionists also believe in "public shaming"...calling out women who want to terminate their pregnancies (they even call the parents of some of these girls to say that "your daughter is killing your grandchild"). So - IS THAT ok? Is that productive?

So - who has the "moral high ground" to decide who gets shamed in public??

Oh - and for this story. $20 says it didn't do a damn thing for the kid.

From reading the Munzenrieder clipping, I thought "That's not right!". Then I read Amy's link at the bottom (the "More Here" link) and that made it pull together much easier. This isn't about study habits, it's about laziness.

The kid did fine in school until about 7th grade (roughly 12-13 years old, so he's only had this pattern of behavior for a max of 3 years). Then all of a sudden, he just stopped caring. He's been lying to his parents about having homework ("That teacher doesn't give homework" and other brilliant excuses) and he failed gym because "he's not an outdoor person". He also decided to do only four questions on his FCAT (our NoChildLeftBehind Scary Standardized Test in Florida) and then not do the rest. This is a kid who has decided, for whatever reason, to just stop putting an effort in. While there is a slender possibility that he's learning disabled, the fact that he did fine until about 3 years ago makes me believe that he's concentrating more on his social activities than his schooling. So if this is truly a case of simply not wanting to work anymore, than his mom had a good strategy. Make it so the next time he goes to school to hang out with his friends and ignore his teachers, his friends tease him and yank his chain.

((As a side note, I'm not sure about the Miami guy's claims that the parents didn't offer to help with his homework, as the Tampa Bay article says: "She said they have offered James help, asked to see his homework, grounded him, lectured him and taken away his cell phone — all to no avail."))

If you didn't click on the link at the end of Amy's post, I encourage you to do so, because I found that way more enlightening than the Miami Times article.

My brother started pulling similar tactics in high school, too. Unfortunately, my mom fell for every single "that teacher doesn't give homework" lie and when he flunked gym, it was totally because the gym teacher was picking on him. As a result, my brother is now a complete and utter loser who has never lived on his own, and the longest he's held a job has been four months.

Kay, fundamentally the answer to your question is pretty simple: society provides public shaming. We never "got rid of it". Every society has unwritten rules. Those who do not follow the unwritten rules are social outcasts - humiliated, in one way or another.

This applies on all scales, from a teenage girls' clique all the way up to the entire country. In your example, the anti-abortionists attempt to impose humiliation on others who do not abide by their social rules. Their mistake is in thinking that they can apply their rules to people outside of their social circle.

Societies enforce conformity, people want to fit in, this is how life works. Multiculturalism and diversity are at odds with basic human nature - at best, we learn to tolerate those different from ourselves, but we seek out the like-minded.

This case just happens to be a bit more explicit than usual. The mother is counting on the fact that society at large supports education, and is exposing her son as non-conformist. Society handles the rest automatically...

Her son, at 15, is a lost cause.

I wouldn't go that far.

Yes, he needs to learn the first rule of holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging down.

He needs to come to the understanding that without completing high school or obtaining a GED, the best job he'll get is as a day laborer. That means mucking out ditches, or doing demolition work with sledgehammers. If he's lucky, he could become a kitchen boy, maybe dishwasher or fry cook.

In better economic times, he could aspire to a higher job than those, but in these times he might find stiff competition for the jobs he could actually land.

Of course, he'll be 16 soon enough. If he feels he's been mistreated by his parents, he can go to a judge and ask for his emancipation and do his own thing.

In either case, welcome to the HK Prep, son. Also known as the school of hard knocks. You're about to be edumacated.

Kay wrote: "I think we are living in the society that we live in now because previous generations saw what "public shaming" does - and got rid of it because it was a bad practice."

That's likely why this latest generation of kids is entitled, lazy, and uninspired. Kids nowadays have no shame because their parents have never let them feel it. They spend too much time coddling them with "positive reinforcement" instead of teaching them to become responsible for themselves.

To answer your question Kay, *I* get to decide what "shaming" punishment my child gets. If my kid had stolen something, I would make him where a sandwhich board that said, "I am a thief" like another mother did a while back. If he's is going to do something, or not do it, then he needs to own it. Me sandwhich boarding my kid after all other efforts have failed may not be the perfect solution but if it's the only way to get through to them, then so be it. YOU don't get to tell me how to punish MY kid. And if it works then who am I to judge. (I am not letting mom and dad off the hook here either. I get the feeling that they could have done a lot more earlier to prevent it from getting this far.)

My husbands middle schoolers use shame and peer pressure as way to get each other to fall in line all the time. They very publicly call eachother out on their nonsense, and you know what? The embarrassed student immediately falls into line. I have seen parents rip their kids a new one in the middle of the quad when their kids acts up in class and I applaud it. I believe the last mom I witnessed said, "You're a big shot? How much of a big shot are you now? Talk to ME like you just talked to your teacher." The kid walked away pretty embarassed but he doesn't act up in class anymore. The feelings of embarassement will go away but the lesson doesn't. Kids need to learn that there are consequances for their choices and sometimes, one of those consequances is humilation. If they behave shamefully, then why should we shield them from feeling that shame when they have to face the consequances of their actions?

Shaming a child for being a lazy ass bum isn't "holier than thou". It's making them accountable for being a lazy ass bum. Shame is the opposite of pride. Maybe, if they do feel some shame, they will start to take some pride in thier work if for no other reason than not to be embarrassed again.

If I were a teen "whore", as you so used as an example, the "sandwhich board punishment" would come from being my hypothetically being pregnant as a result. And I wouldn't be able to take the sandwhich board off. I would have to walk around with that "shame" for the 9 months that I carried the child, and for years after if I decided to keep it. My public shame would simply be assigned to me by biology and not a person.(Or at least it should be shameful but in today's society we more or less make teen pregancy acceptable.)

You cannot compare the anti abortion people who HARRASS the pro choice people to this. It's not even close to the same thing. Abortion, no matter what your opinion on it, is a legal medical procedure and as such, the patients are protected by HIPAA laws and right to privacy laws. The people who publicly harrass patients or families of patients, to "shame them" are engaging in a completely unacceptable action. One, because they are violating someones right to medical privacy. Two, because it's none of their damn business. These people they are "shaming" are perfect strangers. The harrassers have no vested interest in the patients well being. They are only using "shame" to push their own personal agenda. Plus, one could argue that there is no shame in abortion but that's really a personal choice. It's completely different and I would find those public shame-mongers to be 100% in the wrong.

Since the mom was a teenager when she had this kid, she's surely desperate for him to keep his sh*t together and make a decent life for himself. I'm sure she wasn't the strictest parent in the past, but at least she's doing SOMETHING. (The story indicates that the father IS around.) At this point, a lot of better-off families would be threatening military school, but this family doesn't have those resources. I'd try a lot harder before it got to this point, and taking the phone/lectures/grounding aren't going to do crap now. The parents probably thought that was being "strict."

If I came home with less than a "B," I'd have no social life till the next report card came out- and I NEVER had my own phone.

A link on the main story led to another feature, where the mom claims it's working.

I read it entirely differently. Mom of six emphasizes education. All six kids do well in school. One boy hits his teens and his grades slack. It happens. Mom tries a number of motivators. Nothing works. So she tries this.

15 is not "too late." If anything, it's a crucial age. The under-story is that it sounds like Mom is terrified he's going to start hanging with gangs, and she's doing her best to prevent it.

The only "child development expert" I see in this story is a mother who managed to raise six (now five) kids to get good grades against what sound like some pretty rough odds.

$20 says it didn't do a damn thing for the kid.

If the kid has any actual self-estime -- and not the hyped version you get when "adults" tell kids not to keep score 'cause we're all winners -- he'll be burning with the flame of well, I'll show her!

Failing gym? seriously? if he isn't feeling shame about that, then a_random_guy is right: he's finished. Might as well take him straight to the penitentary at Stark.

Barring a turn around, that's where he'll end up one day. Unless he turns up dead, first.

I had a mother who believed in shame as a lesson. It would take a very long time for me to tell you all of the self-destructive things I did when younger because of some of her so-called lessons.

I'm not so sure though that this mom is a shamer. While I'm not so thrilled at her style, she was worried that her son was heading for a life on the streets. I have a feeling she was frustrated and didn't know what to do so she thought she'd show him what his future could look like. Not sure I agree with her method but then again, not sure I completely disagree. My mother would have made her seem like a parenting expert!

Sometimes, no matter what the parents do, they get stuck with a kid who just wants to be a jerk. This would be Reason #3,821,446,992 why I don't want kids. Dogs never try to pull this crap.

Oh, absolutely for.

Coming up on 25 years of customer service, I can say with no reservations that I hate this new generation of kids entering the workforce with a burning white hot passion.

They need constant direction and get mad at you for providing it. They try to dictate their schedule, going so far as to rewrite the schedule for you. They do not understand the concept of seniority, working hard to earn perqs, and yeah, the youngest and newest get the shit jobs and shit shifts. They are mouthy--I had a girl who would tell me "no" when I would ask her to wait on a customer *in front of the customer*. They need to be on their cels all day as if they are a captain of industry or a doctor on call. They need entertainment all day long, like 5 year olds. I could go on. And on.

The only child I enjoy is a girl who was raised strict Mormon--got her mouth washed out with soap for swearing and if she stuck out her tongue she'd be told "I'll cut it off and nail it to the door for the birds to eat." Her dad and grandparents were most emphatically not her friends.

She's not damaged or traumatized in any way--on the contrary, she's a honey, and uber responsible. Not Mormon anymore, but I'm not going to cast aspersions on the basic upbringing.

Kristen wrote:
"I had a mother who believed in shame as a lesson.It would take a very long time for me to tell you all of the self-destructive things I did when younger because of some of her so-called lessons."

There is a difference between using shame to control a child, or to suit some other personal belief, and using shame as a teaching tool.

Like I said before, punishment should fit the crime.

Public shaming only works if the bad student is capable of shame, which seems unlikely at this point. And if the parent isn't going to stand there to make sure he's standing on the corner wearing the sign, he won't. And if the parent has the time to stand there making sure he's being shamed, they have the time to make sure he's doing his homework

Though, neither she nor the boy's father tried to help him with his homework, they grounded him, took away his cell phone, and gave him lecture after lecture to get him to raise his grades, but nothing worked.

I thought the bolded bit here was telling. The parents aren't involved with the kid's work; I'm certain that has a role in his poor performance.

I also think this sort of stunt borders on a abuse and is likely to backfire on the parents.

A poor job on their part all around.

Sabrina, shame should be the natural reaction when caught lying, stealing, or cheating. A child who is not doing well in school may have a learning disablility. If that is ruled out, then cooperation between the parents, school, and student are the best way to come up with a plan for the child to succeed. And then there are some kids who just are lazy and unmotivated and its hard to find a way to reach them no matter what a parent does. Those kids are harder to deal with and sometimes its a matter of maturity. I don't think shaming a kid like that is likely to produce any positive results.

Christopher, I think that might be that particular reporter's mistake, because the Tampa Bay article reports something completely different: "She said they have offered James help, asked to see his homework, grounded him...". It implies that they attempted to help with homework, and offered to get tutoring for him. So I think there's a bit of conflict depending on who's reporting the issue.

Kevin said: "The under-story is that it sounds like Mom is terrified he's going to start hanging with gangs, and she's doing her best to prevent it."
I agree. This is a lot of what I felt was really going on as well. She's afraid he's hanging out with a bad crowd, and is trying to show him where it'll lead.

Kristen of course I agree with you for the most part. Shame should be a natural reaction for wrong doing, but how can a child learn that something is wrong if they aren't taught it? A child doesn't automatically feel shame, they have to first be taught that what they did was wrong and be punished appropriately for it. Shame doesn't occur until the person is capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Teenagers on the other hand, learn differently. Shame isn't something that just comes naturally to teenagers. At that age, impulse takes over and it seems that they go backwards slightly in their growing up process. They test limits and push boundries. They also sometimes deliberately defy adults publicly because they know that there is usually little that an adult can do about it without being labled as an "abuser". Sometimes its a matter of maturity of course, but again, how can we expect them to mature if we don't hold them accountable? Sometimes, with very stubborn ones, traditional routes just don't work. So parents have to get creative. Sometimes you have to resort to public shame. By making them publicly out themselves so to speak, they are forced to own their screw up. It makes them work doubly hard to earn back the trust, and reputation they lost due to their screw up. To a teenager, reputation and fitting in is EVERYTHING and I have no doubts that it only takes ONE incident of a well exocuted "sandwich board" so to speak to shape them up. It's drastic, but sometimes, it's the only thing that gets through a stubborn teens head.

I don't think it should be the first choice, but I am not going to judge a parent for it. Until I have walked in thier shoes and dealt with their kid, I can't say what would have worked better.

"They also sometimes deliberately defy adults publicly because they know that there is usually little that an adult can do about it without being labled as an "abuser".

Isn't it the nature of teenagers to be rebellious? We can go back to the 1950's when abuse wasn't considered abuse and kids were rebeliing. I don't think teenagers today are pushing boundaries because parents are powerless. I think its quite typical of many teens. I have 3 teens now all completely different kids. I have one kid who has never given me a bit of trouble and another one who is a constant test of my patience. Overall though, they are pretty good kids and as the adult I have to figure out ways to prepare them to live productive lives after they leave the nest. My middle guy has come up with some very inventive ways of pushing boundaries which means I've had to come up with very inventive ways of keeping him in check. I think that's pretty typical when teenagers are in the house and I can assure you my son isn't testing me because he knows my hands are tied due to allegations of abuse.

Surely Kristen I agree that teens have been rebelling since teens existed. That's just the nature of the beast. And like you said, not all teens are alike, so it's naive to not believe that some teens very well understand that sometimes, their parents hands are tied. Heck, I know I threatened my mom with it once or twice. By your own admission, you've had come up with some inventive ways to keep one of your own in check. So why are you so quick to judge this mom? By all accounts, she seemed to have no problem with her other kids other than this one so she can't be a total failure as a parent can she? It's likely this child just needed the hard lesson for it to sink in.

My neighbor, who in my opinion is a great mom, has a horrible teen. She's got two kids, dads in the picture (divorced), and they aren't abused in anyway. Her other son is thriving. Him? He's the defintion of bad seed. She has tried every method short of military camp to get him to shape up to no avail. I have even heard him say "What are you gonna do? Hit me? Go ahead. Then I'll call the cops." And you know what, I have no doubt he would. And she would likley have some sort of investigation and even if she's cleared, the stigma of an investigation doesn't go away. She will forever be the mom on the block who was investigated for abuse.

If she didn't resort to this I'd be surprised but I'd be even more surprised if he actually showed up for the punishment to begin with.

While there is a slender possibility that he's learning disabled, the fact that he did fine until about 3 years ago makes me believe that he's concentrating more on his social activities than his schooling. So if this is truly a case of simply not wanting to work anymore, than his mom had a good strategy. Make it so the next time he goes to school to hang out with his friends and ignore his teachers, his friends tease him and yank his chain.

cornerdemon
_____________________

I was going to oppose what the mom had done until I read the above.

(However, public humiliation in front of strangers strikes me as being something one should reserve for the WORST offenses - such as when, some years ago, a preteen girl - in Florida? - went with her mother to the hospital where she works, snooped into patients' records, got their phone numbers, called them and told them they had AIDS when they didn't. I have no idea whether she got put on probation or what, but since, IIRC, there was no report of the mother forcing her to wear a big sign saying "FILTHY LITTLE LIAR" plus an explanation, I'm assuming that didn't happen.)

We may not have all the details. However, it may surprise some that Dr. John Rosemond does NOT support the idea of parents helping with homework. See more here:

http://tinyurl.com/6zkmzlr

The relevant pages are 159-161.

And, according to another book, "The Dumbest Generation," by another author, it's only a minority of kids who are getting too much homework rather than too little, so the argument that today's kids NEED more help from parents isn't necessarily true.

After reading the link, I am thumbs up. We have enough lazy-ass leeches in this country, if this makes the number one less, then you go mom.

I think I might have written "I'm failing everything, even gym" on the board, though.

Sabrina, I didn't judge the mom at all. I said that I have a feeling she was frustrated and didn't know what to do. While I don't know that what she did was right, I don't think it came from a bad place. She had a genuine concern that her son would end up on the streets and was trying to show him what it was like. I don't even necessarily believe she was trying to shame him as much as show him what life would be like on the streets. So please don't confuse that with me judging her because I didn't do that at all. My comments regarding shaming kids came in response to the comments of other posters.

I agree with Patrick - lazy parenting.

"So please don't confuse that with me judging her because I didn't do that at all."

Going back I see that. Sorry Kristen. I managed to combine one of your posts with another in my head... my bad... I shame myself... :p

And, according to another book, "The Dumbest Generation," by another author, it's only a minority of kids who are getting too much homework rather than too little,

I noticed this with my nephew, who is 13. He kept complaining that he got SOOOO much homework. His mother backed him up on that. I took a look at what he was doing, and it didn't seem like much at all. The problem was that he couldn't/wouldn't sit still to do it, so it took forever. And he is a poor reader, so he doesn't always understand what he needs to do.

I don't buy that all kids are getting so much more work than they used to.

Humbug.

I don't have a great deal of patience with whining.

As I tell me son and daughter: The maximum range of an excuse is 0".

Now with that said, that the parents are not involved in their child's work strikes me as telling.

I can picture the words, "I've tried everything but tutoring him and his grades still don't go up!"

For fucks sake you lazy bitch sit down and go over his homework with him. Check his work, make sure he understands what he's doing, and that he is doing it.

She had no clue there was a problem until the report cards came out, she knew he had problems because of the previous round of report cards...so...she had no involvement beyond punishment, and expected things to change in a positive way?

Maybe the kid is unmotivated or lazy, maybe the kid is just stupid. I don't know what it is, but if the problem is that the kid is as dumb as a box of rocks, its pretty clear to me where he gets it from.

We may not have all the details. However, it may surprise some that Dr. John Rosemond does NOT support the idea of parents helping with homework. See more here:

http://tinyurl.com/6zkmzlr

The relevant pages are 159-161.
________________________

Also see pp 166-167, where he talks about the ideal set up for doing homework.

And here's what he wrote in 2001:

"Leadership is not a matter of IQ, socio-economic status, the schools one attended, academic achievements, or the books one has read. It's a matter of a certain attitude, one that conveys a calm, self-confident natural authority.

"Like myself, most Americans older than over the age of 50 were raised by parents who occupied positions of natural authority, parents who ruled not by creating a host of rules, but by communicating broad expectations in a clear, and compelling manner.

"Good example: In the 1950s, it was rare that a parent so much as even checked to make sure a child had done his or her homework. Yet, most baby boomers did their homework (most of the time). Ask someone my age (54) why that was the case and he or she is likely to answer, 'Well, 've never really thought about it, but I guess I did my homework because my parents and teachers expected me to do it.' "

Well, I give her kudos for at least trying to do something to motivate the kid. I think part of the problem, if I remember correctly, is that neither she nor he husband graduated high school themselves. That would tell me they likely COULDN'T help the kid with his homework, but they certainly could have found someone who could. But, if the kid is lazy and unmotivated, a tutor isn't going to help.

At any rate, that kid would be out the door at eighteen. Didn't want to study and apply yourself? Go out in the world and find out what that means in real terms. If you wake up and realize you were an idiot, then we'll talk about what I can do to help you succeed.

Boys are different. Many of them are quite bright but have a lot of trouble seeing how to get from A to D. If punishment and reward are not immediate and memorable it will be hard to motivate them. I had a kid who was quite bright,top 10% on the SATs but graduated in the bottom 25% of a mediocre high school. Her screwed around at a community college for a semester or two and then I told him to join the military and grow up a little before we tried the school thing again. He did and served three years active duty and is now in the guard. What motivates him? Money and the respect of his co workers. He has a great job, his own house, his own car and pays all of his bills. He is considering the school thing again but will only do computer engineering because that will advance him in his career field.
In a nut shell, I think we put way too much academic pressure on boys especially at too young an age. Find something that motivates them or take the pressure off, what ever works and keep the family from imploding over something that will probably fix itself in the long run. Or wont, but either way, it is out of your control.

In other failed parenting attempts to scare your children into doing what you want them to:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/02/23/2011-02-23_staten_island_couple_arrested_for_child_endangerment_for_taking_daughter_6_to_po.html

Abusive behavior on the part of the parents, isn't it? Seems James Mond III excels at apathy and the question is WHY? Does he need more and better quality sleep, a better diet, more aerobic exercise, a friend, a counselor, a medical checkup or all of the above? What he probably doesn't need is to be abused and humiliated.

When I was 16 I had stopped caring about school or anything for that matter. I even stopped going, just hanging out. I don't remember for sure for how long, but I think it was 3 months. I just didn't feel like doing anything.

I wasn't "punished", but eventually my mother and I spoke to the guidance counselor to see what could be done to get me back on track. I started to make some effort. It was a bumpy ride, but I got into college and everything got better. I started to care again.

I never got a definitive answer as to what happened, but I think now that I was suffering Depression. A number of years ago I saw a commercial for medicine to treat Depression, and what was described about it reminded me of myself at 16.

If this child was fine to age 13 but then started not to care, maybe he's going through what I did.

Isabel1130 makes a valid point about learning styles between boys and girls. They learn in very different manners, from what I've read. And the way our education system is evolving (or devolving - that's an argument for another day), it leaves boys further and further behind. They're expected to spend more and more time sitting and listening, which is very difficult for young boys. They take away recess (they only allow you one year of gym at the high school level), and they tell teachers that learning activities/songs are not appropriate learning tools because they don't help "critical thinking" or (as my friend was told) they're considered "cheats" at testing time. As a result, boys - who are generally more hands-on than girls and who learn more by doing than listening - are struggling with 7 hours of "Sit and Be Quiet". And they're falling behind.

Robert said: "Now with that said, that the parents are not involved in their child's work strikes me as telling.I can picture the words, "I've tried everything but tutoring him and his grades still don't go up!" For fucks sake you lazy bitch sit down and go over his homework with him. Check his work, make sure he understands what he's doing, and that he is doing it."

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse, but they've TRIED to help him! It's not that they don't check his work, it's that he's not doing any! He's actively LYING about how much homework he's given. And in high school, they don't send "Homework Folders" home with assignments to be overviewed and signed by the parents like they do in elementary school. She's got no way of checking to see if he's actually got schoolwork besides calling each individual teacher, and honestly, calling 7 teachers to see whether Little Johnny's got a project due every night sounds ridiculous. Depending on the school, they may not even do progress reports, either! So how's she supposed to know he's lying until she gets the report card?

I posted about this a couple of hours ago. Went off and got involved in a project, but this story wouldn't leave me alone. I'd be willing to bet that this boy has a disorder of some type and it might have started with a sleep disorder. The parents really need to get to the bottom of this and help this kid repair any physical ailment. Or, he may have severe ADHD. Whatever, but treat his physical or mental problems, PLEASE. Then, guide him toward whatever he was put here on this earth to do (see multiple intelligences).

I think this sign in public thing would have been more useful if the child had stolen something. That would have been placing the appropriate consequences and shaming on his actions. But with learning, and homework....not so much.

Schools have a one size fits the majority way of educating students. I learn differently, and as an adult, I now know ways to modify information appropriately to learn and understand it. This did not happen for me until i was out of college, and certainly is not to be expected from children coming from this child's environment (how can the parents teach anything to a child they don't know already themselves).

And as for parents not helping children with homework...my experience may have been different, but it was not a lack of motivation on my part. I always did all my homework, but aside from history and Spanish classes - i needed help (math and science). Granite, I think much of the material in math and science classes weren't really ones that I could grasp naturally (I always did try, fail, and try again) and that my home environment was tumultuous and not conducive to learning or proper retention of new information.

And maybe there lies the difference. If parents are parenting appropriately through the child's adolescence (not perfectly, but adequately) perhaps these are the self-motivators that do well to learn by mistakes with no additional parental assistance by the time they are given homework assignments. I've recently discovered, my biggest block to learning was my fear of failure...that I suspect was a direct result of how my family dynamics were set up - starting very early in life. I never had a clue, until recently, that I had been taking zero responsibility as an adult for this. But now I know.

It is my suspicion that the parents should be coming up with a more appropriate plan to motivate (if its not already too late) their son NOW, since it doesn't appear he got this lesson at any point previously - I think his lack of motivation is a direct result of their parenting style (or lack thereof). Kids will adapt and fall in line with their environments. If they are living at home, it is the parents responsibility...after that, it will be his own. Hopefully he will figure out this lesson sooner,rather than later.

Lazy parenting...probably from day one.

Bad idea. He may have a learning disorder, but that's kind of beside the point for now, as is the question of whether he ought to go to college eventually...he's failing gym, which means he's not putting forth any real effort at all, probably not even showing up for class.

The lack of effort is the issue that ought to be punished (though of course the academic grades and the plans for his future should be addressed somehow; just not with punishment) so I'll stick to that. In the real world, we don't shame people quite this way for lack of effort, and certainly someone who is just lazy as hell doesn't get to go accept some harassment for a few hours on a Saturday and then go home to a house where his/her bills are paid, and a TV is available, and decent food is available. Society does shun the lazy, but not like this, and the kid probably knows it, so he won't take this out-of-left-field consequence seriously.

I would take everything out of his room except a bare lightbulb, a sleeping bag and pillow, and his school books. He could eat Top Ramen, or cheap-ass white bread and peanut butter and every single solitary enjoyment above that would have to be earned back, on a defined this-for-that plan where studying and chores are exchanged for privileges and possessions. Once the kid gets used to putting forth the effort, and when the parents are standing there to see what he's understanding, the learning disability issue would make itself known...either he has one, and has given up on even gym because he's just decided that if he can't be a good student he'll be a spectacularly bad one, or he doesn't have one and is just lazy as hell. I can understand boys being failing the lower grades because they're squirmier than their female teachers understand---I have two sons and two brothers and I've definitely seen that happen---but by middle and high school if you show up and turn in something you can usually pass, even if it's c's d's, unless you have a serious learning problem or are just defiant and/or lazy.

"The kid is FIFTEEN YEARS OLD - the time for this kind of parental molding has passed.

At this stage in the game, a wise parent provides structure and emotional support - and lets reality do the teaching."

A friend of mine's boyfriend is divorced with two kids (i.e. his kids). She is now helping raise his son, who lives with the father. The son was 14 when she moved in, and he was lost and depressed and unmotivated and getting bad grades. I watched as she did a great job turning that around, providing some firm but loving discipline, loving support, making sure he did his homework etc., and it didn't take long before he started to seem much happier, his grades improved, etc.

I don't agree with public humiliation. Maybe in some circumstances, but it would have to be combined with some good parenting as part of a holistic strategy (as they say, "part of a complete breakfast").

My dad always managed to subtly make me feel like a Fck-up. I don't think he meant to but his manner, always 'seeming-disappointed' and bashing me for doing things wrong, just led me to feeling self-hate, a little voice inside telling me what a F-up I am. Even today I'm in my 30's, have a successful business, am a successful computer programmer with a valued reputation amongst my clientele, have a wonderful wife and baby on the way that I am able to support, and have managed to purchase two properties ... and inside, I don't even feel like I've achieved anything at all, I still feel like a F-up, and it still creates motivation problems frequently, I think because children both live up to parents (high) expectations, as well as live down to their (low) expectations. Public humiliation will probably just make this kid feel inside that he is a F-up, and he will behave in the self-destructive cycle that reinforces that view. I hope I don't do it to my kids. And still today my dad will say things like he is proud one day, but the next day he will bash me for being useless about whatever random thing (well, not anymore, because I don't speak to him anymore).

I saw it in an ex-girlfriend as well. Her dad used to always tell her straight "you are a F-up" (literally, in those words). Even in her mid 20s she would subconsciously mess up everything she tried and then bash herself for "being a F-up" and feel terrible and go on about how disappointed her dad would be etc. She would mess up something, and then literally address herself out loud in a mock version of her dad's voice and say to herself "you are a F-up" after doing whatever new destructive thing she did. She was a little unbalanced.

"And, kids also need to learn that when you screw up you should feel embarassed. That's part of how you learn."

if I think of my own example, and the people I've seen, I'm not sure it's so much the shame really ... I think there is maybe sort of a fundamental "message" that parents send to their kids implicitly, behind the shame ... good parents send the message "You are fundamentally OK, even though you screw up sometimes, people make mistakes" vs bad parents "You are a screw-up, because you screw up sometimes".

Actually I feel quite clueless about what the right answer/method/approach is to be honest, I'm about to be a parent and all I have are examples of how not to do it. Better figure it out fast.

I saw an interview with Richard Branson once and they asked him something about what he attributes his success to and he said something about having a very loving supportive close family / parenting environment.

I don't agree that there's public shame anymore. Schools now adapt for children who have children. Children who fail classes just "learn differently", which in general I agree, but school isn't that hard in high school to pass and graduate on time. Children get video games, cell phones, cars, without doing anything on a regular basis. Yes, she took the phone away, but after three years of progressively failing grades, at what point does he deserve a phone? He was only 15, three years prior is 12.

I agree with Jenny on taking everything from him at home, where he lives, but it's likely that the public shaming will have some sort of an effect on him. Since this is a news article, we don't know what happened when he got home, or even before he left. There's a big difference from a showcase of public shaming and constantly being told by your parents that you're a F* up, even being told that you f* up. From the limited information we had, she sounds like she's a pretty supportive mother, who could not support her child choosing to fail.

15 is not too late. My brother changed his life at 16 because he got caught shoplifting and neither parent (my parents) were there to pick him up. I was calm and clear. I would not bail him out the next time. Until then, I was the only person who he could rely on, but with the poor parenting of our parents, I had given up and he knew if he got in trouble again, no one would care. No amount of acting out got my brother additional attention, so he realized that he had to grow up and get it together so that he can take care of himself.

"There's a big difference from a showcase of public shaming and constantly being told by your parents that you're a F* up"

True, I guess I sort of equated them, or assumed that it would have that effect implicitly, but I suppose I'm just projecting. The article is a bit light on information, there is too much we don't know.

"I'd be willing to bet that this boy has a disorder of some type and it might have started with a sleep disorder. "

I know exactly what his disorder is: it's lazybumitis. Look, Judy, I know his type; I saw plenty of them when I was that age. Everything you've said is material that he will use as excuses. True, he may have some school or personal issue that his parents need to address... but the complete and utter lack of effort is never, ever excusable. Likely the guy is cutting class altogether -- how the hell else do you flunk gym? (And on that note, so much for that aerobic exercise...)

I don't know that the public shaming is going to work, but I understand the mother's frustration, because this is the kid's absolute last chance. If the kid doesn't shape up in the next year or two, he's on his way to a life as a career criminal and/or meth addict. Assuming he lives that long.

I call bullshit.

The kid can lie all day about not having any homework, but that means precisely SHIT as an excuse when the parent can simply visit the school, talk to the teacher, and ask for an itinerary as to what is due when.

There is a saying, when all you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails. That is what we have here, the child lies, so prove it a lie, sit down and tutor the kid themselves.

For fucks sake:

Kid:"Oh I don't have any homework today mom."
Parent:"Ok son, then lets break out your textbook and show me what you've learned. Do you understand this part here?"
K:"No, not really."
P:"Well then lets solve it together."

Punishment cannot impose comprehension. A parent that cannot or will not teach their child, has no business being a parent.

That much is readily apparent.

The world isn't gonna pat you on the back and say "'Atta boy!"

Especially since his black, if some were to give him an 'Atta Boy' they'd be labeled a racist

"Lazy parenting...probably from day one."

Except, if you read the whole link, she's not. She DID try to help, and has 5 other successful kids. A 5-to-1 ratio does not happen with lazy parents.

"The kid can lie all day about not having any homework, but that means precisely SHIT as an excuse when the parent can simply visit the school, talk to the teacher, and ask for an itinerary as to what is due when."

How long should this continue? When he gets his first job, should she be calling his boss to see when he's scheduled to work? Calling the utilities to see when the bills are due when he moves out? Mollycoddling him by getting his assignments for him is not going to work, it simply puts the responsibility off of him and on her. I do like the taking-everything-away approach, but it's no less "abusive" than this was.

Anyone notice that the kid is 15, mom is 33? That means she got pregnant when she was about 17...wonder if that has any effect on the kid's upbringing.

Well, the eggheads don't seem to like it. Thus, I suspect it's the right thing to do.

The young man is 15. That's a great age to learn that actions have consequences and we all have responsibilities. This kid's primary responsibility is to attend school and apply himself. No whining, no excuses, this is your JOB. He's not a baby anymore and treating him like a small child is only going to encourage child-like behavior.

Robert, I'm with momof4. You can't expect a parent to visit the school, meet with all 7 teachers (because in high school, you don't have just one teacher) and get an itinerary of assignments every few weeks. How long should she be expected to hold his hand through all this? At what point does she say "Take responsibility for your education?"

If this were a middle-schooler, I'd agree with you more. But at 15, it's time for him to start waking up and acting more responsible.

Amy's often blogged about how parents mollycoddle (stealing Mo4's word!) their kids through college and jobs, and how it results in adults who are unmotivated, lazy, and entitled. You seem to be suggesting that's what this mother should do. That she go to the school, put together a homework folder (a la elementary school) and hold his hand to make sure that he succeeds. In effect, make the effort for him. That's not going to work if he wants to go to college or chooses to get a job.

How long should it continue?

Till:
A. the kid drops out
B. Till the kid improves
C. Till the kid leaves the house.

Once he's an adult, its on him to grow up or fuck up on his own.

Letting your child get away with lying is not a good thing.
And at all the schools I went to, teachers didn't do an itinerary for just a few weeks, they did one for the whole school year.

And yes, you CAN expect a parent to visit the school and meet with all 7 teachers. It might take more than a day, but then again, they do still have parent teacher nights don't they? Is she not going to these?

It isn't coddling your child to call them on their bullshit when they lie. And most kids lie about that stuff I think. I did a few times when I was growing up, I'd say I had no homework so I could go out and play. My parents got suspicious if I somehow had no homework for a week though. Didn't that happen in this case?

When my parents found out I was doing horribly in 7th grade, they got me a tutor. $40 a week for an hour after school every day to work with me on various subjects. I didn't appreciate it as much at the time, but it worked. When I was younger, my parents worked with me on math, science, and other subjects as well.

I just don't buy this line of shit that I'm reading here. Punishment is a damn fine tool, shame is too...but like any tool, they cannot be applied to every problem. They shouldn't do the work for him, but they should be supervising him to make sure he does the work, they should be checking his work to make sure he understood the material, they should be talking to the teacher to find out what is going on in class for the upcoming month or two.

Parents are not just givers of food, shelter, and discipline, they are also teachers and supervisors.

When I was a kid, there was a guy nearby who had a 16 year old son that didn't give a damn about school. So one day the father of that young man took him out of school for a solid two week period. He got the boy a job digging ditches and the like, with the warning that if he did not graduate from high school, this was about the best job he could hope to get. After two weeks the kid got the point, decided he didn't like it, and then buckled down on his own and turned it around, he did have to go to summer school as a result of the time he'd missed (he used to skip on his own), but he got the point and graduated.

Its not terribly creative, but it was parenting that worked.

I dunno, Robert. I like the idea that your friend had with the 16 year old; I think that would be effective. But nowadays, in some states, that could get you thrown in jail. Adults aren't allowed to pull their kids out of school as easily as they used to.

But I was in high school ten years ago, and we had one Parent-Teacher Night a year. You're teacher requested a conference if they thought it was needed, but I have no idea how common those were at that stage, so I'll concede that Parent-Teacher Conferences aren't out of the equation, and she might've utilized them more.

But seriously... a Parent-Teacher Conference for Gym Class? At that point, you have to admit that he must be lazy and is just not doing the work. Even I got straight A's in Gym and I couldn't run the mile anywhere under ten minutes!

My teachers didn't give out detailed syllabi for the semester, let alone for the year. Oop - I take that back, I remember one or two who would do a syallabus; more often than not we got an "overview" of our goals for the year. Like "We'll be concentrating on essay writing and Hamlet for the third nine weeks, so make sure you have your books by then".

Granted, my view is slanted because I watched my younger brother pull all this crap and Mom held his hand and defended him every step of the way. So I can't stand seeing some kid sleep through class when I know his parents are going nuts at home every night trying to get him to do better and he's giving them lip service.

There's a happy medium somewhere, and I'll grant you that the parents *probably* could've done more, but I still think that you're not making this young man responsible enough for his own life. In a year, he'll be able to get a job. He'll probably be driving. I think now is the perfect time to say "it is no one else's fault but your own that you're failing and you need to see that."