The trick is to be aware without becoming paranoid.

Self-defense courses can be important, and the first rule of any good self-defense course is to run away. If you can avoid a confrontation, do so. This goes for men and women.

If you must defend yourself, then you must go all out. Your goal is to put your attacker in the hospital with your first blow. Then you run away. Don't stay around to chat, because the perp may have friends.

Best, if you are serious about self-defense, is to get involved in a sport like Judo or Ju Jitsu.

.

..00003...................3I don't go out much on my own and when I start driving its going to be with the kids.. I don't see 0303.21010102000000000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000112000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000......032320002022222222222222222222222222222222........................................0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
.............2.

why a gun would be out of the question. In fact I am more likely to get carjacked than kidnapped.. I would think carjacking would be easier to avoid. They say you should throw your keys and run but wouldn't it be easier to just hit the gas..

The only time I have been the victim of crimes was when I was a child.. Couldn't escape it then.. And then when we bought a new van.. Somebody broke into it a stole quite a pretty pennies worth of import CDs..

I agree w/ Sergeant Heather. As someone who goes to MMA classes twice a week I know how insanely hard it is to learn the skills of grappling. We repeat moves dozens of times per class - both kickboxing and grappling - and I have no qualms admitting that I am still clueless and couldn't hold my own in a fight. If I wanted to get serious about this, I'd be going every day for 2-3 hours a day.

Learning how to elbow someone in the head is a great defense move....But you need to practice it consistently over a period of years before it becomes second nature and therefore actually useful to you.

Also, the self-defense classes that are aimed at women tend to be a joke. This is why they're a joke and this is why they're dangerous, as Heather says (click on "women's classes" then on "MMA Based Women's Self Defense"):

http://www.sssfighting.com/

ok sorry about that post from earlier.. I did not realize the baby had helped me type....

"I don't go out much on my own and when I start driving its going to be with the kids.. I don't see why a gun would be out of the question."

"Sergeant Heather advises carrying pepper spray, being smart about where you go and when, and keeping your wits about you at all times."

Stories like this are why I carry pepper spray and have a concealed carry permit.

I have been robbed at gunpoint. Twice.

I don't advise carrying pepper spray. IT gives a false sense of security. If you suddenly find yourself in a situation that you need it, it is probably in a place where you can't access it quickly enough for it to be useful.

I have taken years of karate, kickboxing and numerous self defense course. The best things to protect yourself:

1. Always be completely aware of your surroundings. Know where you are going or at the very least, LOOK like you know where you are going.
2. Walk like you own the road. Don't scurry. The best way to defend yourself is prevention.
3. A potential attacker is afraid too. THEY don't want to get caught. If you are too difficult then they will drop you and move on to easier prey.
4. If you think someone is following you, confront them from a distance. Turn around and say "YOU - ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME?". You have just shown that you are not easy prey and this could make the attacker change his mind.
5. If someone does get within grabbing or striking distance you will have to use your instincts more than anything. There is no "foolproof" method, just some guidelines:
- You don't need to know how to throw, punch or grapple. Just know weak points...eyes, groin, knees, throat. Don't go for the groin first...a quick hit in the throat will surprise and choke, then a good kick to the nads will be a surprise for him.
- Make noise...lots of it. Scream "FIRE, YOU'RE CAR IS ON FIRE". If you see people, point to them and say "YOU - HELP ME". It is harder to deny your request.
- NEVER get into a car or go somewhere, no matter what your attacker points at you. If he wants you in a car, he wants you someplace quiet where he can take his time.

One self defense teacher once asked the class...

"Do you think you could take on the Boston Strangler" note=killed up to 13 women. The class was hesitant...not sure they could take him.

Then the teacher asked..."what if you came home and caught the Boston Stranger raping your daughter"...the class was pretty unanimous...they'd kill that fucker.

If you need self defense, you need to protect yourself in that same manner.

I used to do MMA, kickboxing, and also grappled competitively when I lived in NYC. I trained 3-4 hours a day 4-5 days a week. I was very serious about it for a while. People always found it strange that I did grappling because typically, grappling is a "boy" thing. They often asked why I didn't just do kickboxing and MMA by itself. My answer was always "because if I do ever find myself in a situation where I have to use it, I want to live."

The reality is most fights end up on the ground. Anyone can throw a few well aimed punches and kicks, but the problem with kickboxing is that it's all based on the theory that you are on your feet the whole time. That is not reality. A REAL fight or a sneak attack always ends with the weaker person, or both people, on the ground. Not even a stong man can really defend himself once he's been thrown to the ground, with a person on top of him, if all he knows is punching and kicking.

Grappling taught me how to fight and defend myself while on the ground. First, I learned how to get my opponent to the ground first (so that I could run away if this was a real life scenario). After some time, I was able to roll a man twice my size off of me, and even trap him under me in some cases. I practiced it so much that it became second nature. I have no doubt that if I needed to, I could defend myself admirably. I am not arrogant enough to believe that I am 100% safe and will ever be injured should I be attacked but I know that my odds of survival are definitely better because I know how to keep my wits and defend myself on the ground.

I have only had to use it once and it wasn't even life threatening. It was more of a bar brawl...lol..
A few years ago, I was waiting in the cab line in Hoboken NJ (outside the PATH station). It was late, I was tired, and it was raining. A guy was obviously drunk and screaming racial slurs at the cab driver, holding up the line, and overall being a drunken ass. His friends were trying to, unsuccessfuly, get him in the cab. I, really just wanting to get home already, yelled at the guy to "shut the hell up you ignorant ass! Either start walkin or get in the cab!" (In hindsight, I realize that I shouldn't have engaged the crazy; not my prouder moment) After yelling some pretty sexually driven insults my way, he suddenly came at me fast and tried to hit me. I remember him grabbing my wrist at some point too. I don't remember exactly what happened becuase it happened realy fast. All I know is my reflexes kicked in and I was able to catch his other wrist somehow and twist his arm enough so that I could take him to the ground while he was swinging. Now, the fact that he was drunk and unsteady on his feet probably helped but if I hadn't had any of my MMA training, I likely would have been hurt. I was pretty pissed later when I noticed that I had ripped the seam of my jacket sleeve. I had a bruise on the arm he grabbed for a couple days too but if that's the worst that happened, I count myself as lucky.

Oh... and Kay's points are spot on. Hopefully, I would never get to the point where I need to be defending myself on the ground because all these steps should be the first line of defense. Especially the tips about being aware of our surroundings and confronting someone you think is following you. This is especially true for women.

Women are still wired to be "nice" so they often ignore their gut. Don't. Your attacker is likely counting on your need to please to make his job easier. I would much rather risk offending someone, and embarrassing myself by confronting someone then risk being hurt because I didn't want to hurt some random guys feelings.

And...Get off the damn phone! How on earth can you be aware of your surroundings if your blabbing away on your cell.

"And...Get off the damn phone! How on earth can you be aware of your surroundings if your blabbing away on your cell. "

I never walk around w/ my earbuds in at night....even if I'm just walking around my neighborhood w/ the dog.

Another thing to keep in mind when facing (or thinking about facing) an attacker:

A small cat can scare the crap out of a giant bear. Size isn't always a factor...you have to use what weapons you have. I don't suggest biting so much (HIV) but just think of yourself as a nasty, vicious cat and a attacker as a bear. Hiss and spit and claw and "bite" and scream and maul him. He'll probably retreat.

I've been approached by crackheads downtown at night a time or two... My reaction was, "If you come any closer to me, I'm gonna start screaming." And then, I do it... and they run away. I never run in the dark, and I live in a pretty nice neighborhood.
Two points: If someone's going to physically attack you, they've probably been maced before, so it's not going to do you much good. Husband was a bouncer in college and managed a bar for years, and has been indirectly maced several times. You build a tolerance.
Second point: Don't pull up right behind people when you're stopped in traffic/at a light. If someone comes up to your car, you have nowhere to go.

The best security is just to keep yourself fit enough that a potential predator says to themselves..."Nah, I'll wait for an easier target."

This pretty generally only works for men.

For women, a firearm, or being on the arm of the above type of man, is the best defense.

Pepper spray might be illegal in some states, but oven cleaner or wasp spray is not. Bag, and you're just bringing it home from the store. No officer, I can't find my receipt. I sure was lucky having this with me. That is, if you are going to ignore the advice to tell the police nothing at all.

Martial Arts are fine, as far as they go, but there is only one biggest and baddest out there. I'm certain it's not me. Would you bet your life that it is you? (I still train regularly and odds are I'm bigger and stronger than most of the ladies who have commented here, but get real. Somebody who has trained just as long, outweighs me by 80 lbs of muscle and is half my age is going to kick my butt unless I get lucky. If they have the element of surprise, or a weapon, how lucky can I expect to be? Officer Heather knows of what she speaks.)

We run when it is light out, where there are people within eyesight. I live in a good, boring suburban neighborhood where nothing ever happens. You might never need your seat belt either. It costs nothing to be smart.

The biigest problem I've forund with self defense is most people dont want to hurt another person,

And quite frankly those people who offer the one time self defense lesson should be held criminally liable when one of their 'students' is attacked.

If there is ONLY ONE THING... it is situational awareness.

DO NOT EVER run with a walkman or earbuds in. Even in the day. You tend to concentrate, to "lose yourself" in the music.

That split second of not knowing what is happening in your surroundings is what allows an attacker to close on you. You are already running, you can get away if you can tell there is danger...

regardless if that danger is in a bush, from a car closing from behind, or leaping onto you from the rocks, it only works when you can tell it's there. Listening tells you a lot, seeing your surroundings tells you a lot... Noticing if the birds are chirping tells you a lot.

All of these things are a better base than a self defense class, though when augmented with self defense is even better. Know your surroundings and listen to them...

I was the victim of attempted rape about 17 years ago, shortly after I had just turned 18. I knew I was being hunted the moment he stepped off the bus. Fortunately, he was unable to finish his task, as he couldn't cover my mouth, hold me down, undress me, and rape me with only two hands. My screams scared him off, but not before he left me with a nasty egg lump on the side of the head. I still remember every detail of that situation, what he said, his movements, the thoughts that ran through my head, etc.

Unfortunately, the police never really followed through with the case, and even years later we read about a rapist who was attacking women in broad daylight, asking specific questions prior to the attack, i.e. the same method that my attacker used. We left messages for the police on that too, but calls were never returned.

Everyone needs to read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker. Tons of wisdom in that book.

I agree with pretty much everyone here. At one time I was a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do (I haven't practiced in years) and yeah, I could seriously whip some ass but I'm also not stupid enough to think I'm going to take on some guy who jumps me in the street and win easily, or at all for that matter.

My instructor gave us some really good tips. Words to live by, you might say.

The best defense is not to be there. Don't put yourself in situations where you could get hurt. Pay attention to where the hell you are and yes, if you think someone is following you TURN AROUND AND LOOK AT HIM. POINTEDLY. Say, "Can I help you?" as loud as you can. If the guy was totally innocent he might give you a look like you're a freak or something, but so what? Better than you being the next murder statistic.

You are going to be hurt. Accept this as a fact. You aren't going to be all Kung-Fu Master and kick some guy's ass without getting injured in some way. Getting out alive is the goal here. Getting out unscathed is not going to happen.

Also, NEVER let an attacker take you to a second location. You're likely not coming back from there. You'd better make up your mind RIGHT NOW, TODAY that if some asshole jumps you it's fight to the death right there. And yes, you could be the one that winds up dead, but if you let him put you in the car you're likely dead anyway.

Also, and this is horrible to think about, if you DO get attacked, and you realize you're not going to win this fight, scratch, bite, kick, whatever you have to do, but get as much of the attacker's DNA on you as possible. At least that way when they find you, they might be able to find him as well.

I was grabbed by a would-be rapist when I was walking home from work at night, when I was 16. Scariest experience ever. The guy ran past me once, looked over his shoulder at me, and I immediately felt sick and wished I had some pepper spray or something but I had nothing; I thought my neighborhood was really safe. I started sort of jogging then but he came back around (must've circled the block) and grabbed me from behind, and sure enough, got me just about on the ground before I even knew what was going on. I screamed as loud as I could and then bit down as hard as I could when he put his hand on my mouth, but I don't think I could've fought him off on my own...what finally got him gone was a car screeching to a stop on the street; the driver had seen me struggling and him trying to pull me away from the sidewalk.

I was talking to my co worker about this topic this morning and she said something that I found shocking.
We were both discussing a case of a woman here who was recently raped and I directed her to this thread. At lunch we were talking about it and what we both thought we would do in this same situation.

I said "if I am going down, I am going down fighting. There is just no way in heck that I would ever be a passive victim."
Then, I thought she would say something similar or in agreement... but no. She said "Why wouldn't you just coopperate? It's likely to go a lot smoother that way don't you think?"
I think she is still trying to understand why I stared at her like she had two heads.

Do some women today really still think that passive compliance is going to save their lives?

Do some women today really still think that passive compliance is going to save their lives?

Really good question, Sabrina. Sergeant Heather and I discussed this and she says you should try to get away from the attacker -- you don't go off with them, etc.

10 Rules that May Save your life: http://chl-tx.com/2010/03/rules-that-may-save-your-life/

Rule #11: Carry a gun, and know how to use it.

Rule #12: Don't live in or even visit a state that requires victims to be unarmed.

She said "Why wouldn't you just coopperate? It's likely to go a lot smoother that way don't you think?"
I think she is still trying to understand why I stared at her like she had two heads.

Do some women today really still think that passive compliance is going to save their lives?

Sabrina
_______________________

Maybe she didn't understand you were talking about kidnapping and not just rape?

I agree it makes sense never to get into a car with kidnappers, even if at gunpoint. If they manage to drag you kicking and screaming into the car, you did all you could. However, there are plenty of cases of rape in public where NO car is involved, so I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he's not going to kill you on the street (even when it's behind, say, trash cans) if you comply. (I've never heard anyone contradict that.) At any rate, it's pretty risky trying to engage in hand-to-hand combat with someone who's armed!

Again, kidnapping is a very different matter. If only Elizabeth Smart had been given the above warning, chances are her life would have been a lot better. Of course, one cannot expect an unwarned 14-year-old to think of her survival chances when she has a knife to her throat. Besides, given her kidnapper's irrational - if not clinically insane - personality, how can we be sure he wouldn't have at least permanently injured her had she simply curled up and refused to move? (Screaming would likely have made him panic, of course, which could well have been fatal for her.)

I also keep wondering: WHY didn't she get pregnant? (Her doctors say she never was pregnant.)

Lenona, what makes you think that compliance is helpful?

there is no way to get stats on this up or down. You are less likely to get killed if you comply? Do we know if the dead fought back or complied?

You ARE going to get hurt regardless. Even if a pillow it put beneath your head, are you not being assulted? Won't you feel the taruma of being violated, no matter how it's done? How much will being beaten change that?

There is a chance if you fight back, you'll get away, and if you get away you win.

If you don't try and get away, you WONT get away, and you WILL be assulted 100% of the time.

Make yourself a hard target, not an easy one.

I think that it may be really difficult to determine if we have had any "close calls". I have had several brushes with potentially dangerous situations, but I have no idea how they would have turned out if I had reacted differently.

#1: When I was 12, A man pulled up next to me and opened his car door. He did not have pants on. I ran right through a complete stranger's home saying, "Hi Mom, Hi Dad, I'm Home!" For all I knew it was HIS house. He may have followed me, he may have not. I leapt over bushes and zig-zagged my way home as fast as I could. It's likely that he was just a flasher, but I wasn't going to take the time to look back and find out.

#2: I had broken up with a guy who subsequently came to visit. He kept trying to kiss me so I sent him on his way. He left, but when I called out after him asking him not to be mad, he ran toward me. I could not get the door locked in time. He forced his way in. He was a bodybuilder. We were out of sight and earshot.He looked crazed. I tried to compromise with him (and gave him a hand-job). Who knows how things would have turned out if I had fought him? Perhaps he would have just left - perhaps not.

#3: I was alone at dusk in a parking lot, I heard a friendly voice say, "Hey Jennifer, Stop!" I did, but kept my distance from the man. He knew my friend and co-workers name and said that she had been talking about me and wanted him to meet me. He slowly moved towards me. He looked innocent, but I had my mace in my hand. I told him that he needed to stay away. He smiled calmly and moved towards me, talking in a friendly way all the while. I told him if he took another step that I would mace him. He did. I did. He walked away with the liquid dripping down his face. Was he a kindly drunk or a madman about to hurt me? Who knows. I'm glad I never really found out the truth.

Throw the knife.

A good friend is an ER doc at a county hospital and says even after all these years she can't believe how often a guy will walk in of his own accord with multiple stab wounds, most of them superficial. She always says: THROW THE KNIFE AND RUN.

Because you're unlikely to inflict major damage on an attacker with a knife -- it takes a lot of guts and muscle to stab someone that hard -- and most likely just piss off him off even more.

Leona, that's where I am torn with the Elizabeth Smart case. There are so many "what if's" that I just can't say what would have been the right thing for her to do. For starters, she was a kid. It's easy for an adult to make the choice to fight back, not so much for a kid. Also, stranger abductions are rare and this was one of those cases that no one really could have been prepared for or prevented. Perhaps if she had screamed it would have made him panic and hurt her, but what if it had scared him off? Just because he is deemed irrational doesn't mean he's a murderer. I don't think he wanted to kill her though. If his intent was murder, the case would have turned out much differently. So, in that case, I think fighting back would have been the right thing to do. But of course, I don't blame her for not fighting back. We weren't in the room with her when he was kidnapping her and have no idea what else was going on.

Of course I agree that it's risky to engage in hand to hand combat with an armed person but it doesn't mean I won't do it if there's a chance of survival. If a man holds a knife to my throat and orders me into an alley or a car, I'm not complying. He's now going to have to decide if he's willing to slash my throat right there on the street or not. Odds are, he's not. The knifes purpose was likley to scare me into compliance. If he just wanted me dead, he'd kill me. If his intent was to take me somewhere to take his time with me, then perhaps kill me, he can't do that if I don't go with him to begin with. There only much you can do to prevent a sneak attack of course .. But that doesn't mean you can't make a lot of noise when it happens.

I guess the way I see it, if they are attacking you, their intent was to harm you anyway so no amount of compliance is going to prevent some harm. Why not make it harder for them to get away with it? If there is the slightest chance of getting away, even if injured, I am gonna take it. If I perish, there is at least a chance that I will get some of their DNA on me or leave a scar on them and the odds are better that they will be caught.

Lenona, what makes you think that compliance is helpful?

there is no way to get stats on this up or down. You are less likely to get killed if you comply? Do we know if the dead fought back or complied?

Posted by: SwissArmyD at February 23, 2011 3:31 PM
____________________

Please go back and read what I said. To spell it out a bit more, I have never heard any crime specialist say that it's better to comply with a gunman with a car, whether or not he's already dragging you toward the car.

However, I HAVE heard law officers say that when it comes to rape - especially indoors or in areas that are already pretty isolated and don't need a car or even camouflage - it depends a lot on the circumstances, and there is no one right answer.

Not to mention that there are many cases of rape victims who complied and were not killed. (OK, so maybe the rapist was just bluffing when he threatened to kill, but read on...)

Again, if you struggle with a man with a gun, there's a pretty good chance you'll get killed whether he really had the nerve to kill you or not. Women do manage to recover from rape, after all.

Sabrina said "It's easy for an adult to make the choice to fight back, not so much for a kid." I don't believe it's a choice at all. For an adult or a child. It's a reaction. You either have it in you to fight back or you're gonna freeze up in fear.
I was 11 years old at our families vacation home in rural Wisconsin. Closest neighbor a 1/4 mile or so down the road. Neighbor boy (17, tourette’s syndrome, emotionally and physically abused by his older brother, a no-hope-for-him whack job)decided to watch for my parents to leave the house. He called my house asking for a fictitious name. Just checking if I was still home now that my parents were gone. Came over, knocked on the door, when I started to open it he pushed his way in and attacked me.
I fought like hell.

He was trying to rape me. I don't know how I kept getting him off of me but I did. Adrenaline is powerful. At one point he pulled out a knife. I almost got it away from him too. What finally got me away from him for good was when I realized I had been stabbed in the struggle. I blurted out "Donald, you stabbed me"! And he froze. And I ran. To the only room in the house with a lock on the door. The bathroom. He pretended to leave the house several times to see if I would come out of the bathroom. He could have broken down the door if he wanted to, but I think his rage was gone and now he was just freaked out. He finally went home. And me, two stab wounds, (one nicked a kidney) a partially collapsed lung and a couple of cracked ribs. It could have been worse. He was in a rage when he pushed through my door. But I fought him off. At 11 years old. It was never a choice, I just did it. I don't believe that in scary or violent situations you actually make choices. I believe you just react. Like I said, you either have it in you or you don’t.

Don't pull up right behind people when you're stopped in traffic/at a light. If someone comes up to your car, you have nowhere to go.

Ahw, interesting point. At an intersection near my home that I drive through regularly, a couple were attacked in their car while stopped at the lights - in broad daylight, a whole gang of African (Somali) immigrants from the housing project on that corner. This is not normally a bad area, in fact, in the city I live in there isn't any such thing by the standards of most of the rest of the world. I remember wondering at the time - I know that corner, the path is wide with no obstructions, why not just back up, crush the guys behind you if you have to, drive up on the sidewalk and get the hell out of there? Screw the red light! I guess the guy just froze up. Fair enough, I can't guarantee I wouldn't do the same. But use the car as a weapon was my first reaction.

Why do so many of you offer "advice" which is anecdotal?

Aside from learning what professionals tell you to do for self-defense - starting with awareness - you also need to do two more things:

1) Learn who your beat cops are.
2) Learn what the LAW in your state says about self-defense. Not your friends, not your Mom, not your Dad. THE LAW.

Don't bet on the good intentions of a stranger. And be glad the crime rate is actually so low.

Now - look around. What weapons do you have in plain sight?

Got the knife block out? Knitting needles? Sharps, cords? Gonna hand them to the invader?

Amy, you used to link to Cornered Cat over there on the left. Where'd they go?

*****1) Learn who your beat cops are.*****

Do these people even exist anymore? I don't know about you, but here there's no such thing. I doubt the same cops work the same neighborhood twice in one week. And a lot of outlying areas are patrolled alternately by the county sheriff and the state cops.

Daghain, of course the point is to be on record on the side of the law. And for significant periods, the same police will be assigned to an area just because the geography has to be learned.

You do not want to be anonymous if the police must draw weapons. They shoot bystanders a lot more than private citizens engaged in self-defense do, and one factor is misidentification.

This isn't something you do once, then go back inside for a year. They work for you, they appreciate supportive attention. When somebody thinks "us vs. them", be "us"!

Jill wrote: "I don't believe it's a choice at all. For an adult or a child. It's a reaction. You either have it in you to fight back or you're gonna freeze up in fear."

That's a good point... but I would imagine that a persons survival instincts would kick in like yours did in a life and death situation. You may not actually make the concious choice to fight, but your natural instinct to survive will likely take over and you will fight back. Your subconcious will basically choose for you.

I do still believe that there is always a choice though. You can choose to allow your fear to take over or you can choose to use your fear as a motivator to fight, like adrenalin. And you can also choose to go down quietly or not if you know you are doomed anyway.

But it's easy for me to say that being safe in my office chair and not on the other end of an attackers knife.

No one really can say for sure what they WILL do unless you've actually experianced it, but one can say what they hope they will do I suppose. I have never been in a life and death situation like that. I have been in situations that have required me to defend myself, and I have done so, but never that extreme. While I hope my training and instincts will kick in if I found myself in these hypothetical situations, I guess I can't say for sure until I'm in it. I do know though that I'm am not a naturally "compliant" person though so I don't imagine that I'd just allow myself to go down easy.

*****Daghain, of course the point is to be on record on the side of the law. And for significant periods, the same police will be assigned to an area just because the geography has to be learned.*****

Okay, you're going to have to explain this to me, because apparently I'm not understanding you. Am I supposed to call the cops over for coffee and donuts? How are they supposed to know me as "on record of the side of the law"?

"How are they supposed to know me as "on record of the side of the law"?"

You just have to be a known face. It doesn't matter if you call on a deputy to ask a fabricated question, or wander into the Town Hall to talk to Sheriff Taylor himself.

This is getting harder to do as the ratio of people to cops goes up, but it's still easy. If you're in Starbucks or McDonald's and somebody in uniform is there, just ask her who patrols your neighborhood.

Most people have a BS filter. You show the copper you care, you'll get something back.

Guess I'd better start hanging out at the donut shop then. :D

Actually, I used to do this eons ago when I worked at 7-11. Give the cops free coffee, get LOTS of free drive-bys to make sure the riff-raff stays out of the parking lot.

I honestly can say, though, I have not seen a cop out side his/her patrol car in months in this town. Firefighters, however, are another story as they hang out in the same place I do for breakfast on Sundays.

If I had a daughter I'd tell her not to depend on a self defense course. Instead I'd get her an easily concealable pistol, teach her how to safely use it, advise her to go to the ranger at least once every three months, and help her apply for a concealed carry permit.

To Jill:

So, did he get punished and, I hope, straightened out, or what?

lenona
Unfortunately it was officially a first offense. Unofficially he had gotten into trouble before but no charges were ever pressed before that. He confessed on his own. No trial. Got time in juvie and was released. A few years later he was arrested for sexually assaulting another girl, although I don't know her age, weather she was a minor or an adult. He is now on the Wisconsin sex offender registry for life. I'm not sure about his criminal record after that. I could dig it up if I wanted to look but I don't think I do. I'd be surprised if in 22 years he hadn't re-offended. The kid had a boat load of problems.