I favor stricter immigration control.

But I'm quite willing to give some slack to someone who's been here for 20 years and didn't himself break the law.

That's just it. Reading his article in the NY Times magazine, he knew from almost the moment he got here that he was here illegally. As soon as he turned 18, he was breaking the law, and knowingly doing so.

I am an American citizen, born and bred. I have traveled to many countries. Whenever I have traveled, even if it's just a short trip -- even if I'm only going to be in the country for a few days -- I read phrasebooks, try to pick up a little of the language, try to observe their customs, and inconvenience or offend the people as little as possible. That's because I'm a GUEST, and there are certain polite behaviors that any guests should practice.

Never, ever, EVER in a million years would I go to a country thinking, "Yeah, I know what their laws are, but I don't care. I'm just gonna do whatever I want. I'm not gonna bother to get a visa or ask for permission to enter the country because that's all just a big bother, and it's really all about ME."

Vargas was a guest in this country who decided the law didn't apply to him. I don't want such guests, myself. Obey our laws or leave. You have NO ENTITLEMENT to be here; you are a GUEST. If your country of origin is such a dung-heap, go fix it.

I hope he gets a visit from the INS as a result of his heart-rending soul dump. The laws should not be changed or unenforced just because of this or that guy's Personal Story.

the thing is, regardless of what happened then, the guy could travel the world now... I'm sure in their Phillipenes bureau of major news organizations, and so forth. His grandparents are natrualized, so I don't understand why it is he cant apply for citizenship too. But he may have to do it outside the US... I understand that he didn't have a clue as a kid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did later. So he can't go all weepy that suddenly things are bad.

If he understnads anything AT ALL, he will realize that he has to go and do the CORRECT thing now, and start again.

I don't think our immigration rules are really that different from other countries, are they?

Can we talk about who the real culprits are? The people who hire them for what basically is slave labor. The red blooded Americans that hire them don't want to pay into the tax system for schooling or health care costs brought about by illegals.

Ppen, are you saying that the immigrants don't soemhow have a CHOICE? they choose to do this. I't true that people that hire under the table are breaking laws too, and they are often sanctioned for it... but that doesn't change who broke what law first.

Also? I don't think that really applies to this guy... since he had papers and such. Nobody knew he was not legal.

"Does Success In Your Career Mean You Get To Break The Law?"
It does if you are a liberal, but only applies to liberals. Just look at the Hollywood outpouring about a certain Director, found guilty of drugging raping a underage girl.

Vargas should be arrested, and the "news" that hired him should be subject to the laws which prevent you from hiring illegals.

"but that doesn't change who broke what law first"

Who cares who broke the law first? The law is broken in both instances by both parties that are equally responsible. What is your point anyways?

Do you honestly expect illegal immigrants to philosophy the implication of coming into this country? They are going to act in their best interest. It's like leaving my car keys on top of my car, yes my car should not be stolen and yes the car thief should think it's wrong but.....whose the idiot?. Likewise it's up to American people to enforce the LAW but it's apparent nobody wants to do it for whatever reason.

Anyways these illegals get treated like slaves. I've been in the biz long enough to know. In this country we have laws regarding labor which must be enforced. What ever happened to equal pay for equal work.

What ever happened to equal pay for equal work.

I hope it dies.

Equal Pay for Equal Work is a code for the government classifying jobs so that "protected groups" who generally congregated in certains jobs (e.g., women in nursing and teaching, Hispanics in agriculture) would make the same money as unprotected groups who headed for "equal" jobs (construction, mechanics, plumbing).

The government will classify the jobs on the basis of the level of skills and training required.

The idea the the market would decide what jobs are worth horrifies the EPEW crowd. Central economic planning will ensure fairness and social justice.

I saw the results of this kind of thinking when I worked in grocery management. Way back when, grocery cashiers were classified as equivalent to machinists because operating the cash register required skills and the job required math.

Forty years later, UFCW continues to resist reclassifying the cashier job despite the evolution of computerized cash registers, non-cash payment methods, and UPC scanners. Unionized cashiers were making $25+ an hour.

And Obama wonders why the price of arugula keeps going up.

@Joe Roman Polanski is a big perv, but the one who wanted the media storm to be dropped faster than old man penis is his victim (survivor!) This is not about that though.

Unless you're a Native American, which I highly doubt since they're almost extinct,your ancestors came from somewhere that isn't north America. I'll bet you don't use the word illegal to describe them when you tell their story of coming to America. Do you?

This is for all the Fucking Haters!-- I'm as American as they come, hell, one of my ancestors signed the Declaration of Independence! But this entitlement syndrome that everyone seems to suffer from makes me wish I wasn't. What makes you more deserving? BC of where you happened to be born- Wow, that took some work on your part! Forget about how people fight tooth and nail to get somewhere, you just happened to be squeezed out of the geographically desirable vagina- good job champ!

Unless you're a Native American, which I highly doubt since they're almost extinct,your ancestors came from somewhere that isn't north America.

Their ancestors came from Siberia.

I'll bet you don't use the word illegal to describe them when you tell their story of coming to America. Do you?

My ancestors filled out the requisite forms and jumped through the hoops. The controlling legal authority (the colonial government of Pennsylvania and US government - depending upon the ancestor) permitted them to enter. So, no, I don't use the term "illegal" when referring to them. They followed procedure.

But this entitlement syndrome that everyone seems to suffer from makes me wish I wasn't.

Then leave.

The United States speaks with 300,000,000+ voices. If you can't handle hearing some that offend you without wanting renounce your citizenship, you should go somewhere where everyone marches in lockstep.

What makes you more deserving?

No one here said they were more deserving (deserving of what?).

What people are debating here is whether the borders should be open to anyone that can stumble, crawl, hop, or pole vault across them.

Or, if there is a distinct American culture and ethic that made the country what it is.

And whether it takes a little time for new immigrants to assimilate to that culture and ethic.

And whether mass immigration makes that assimilation nearly impossible, leaving new immigrants isolated in ethnic silos. And whether and how that changes the country forever, some of which may be good and some of which may be bad.

Get over yourself.

It's a debate we need to have.

We're one of the most welcoming nations in the world. And no one here is proposing we change that.

I'm as American as they come, hell, one of my ancestors signed the Declaration of Independence!

Which Native American's land did he steal?

"BC of where you happened to be born- Wow, that took some work on your part!"

Yes. That's nearly the textbook definition of citizen. Who cares if it took work or not. It didn't take the Thai any work to be born a place with some of the most beautiful beaches in the world either. But guess what, if I fight tooth and nail to sneak in there, they aren't going to look kindly upon me or let me stay. So your point is....oh, right, you don't have one outside manufactured outrage.

If I fight tooth and nail to get inside your house, do I get to stay? If not, why not? After all, how hard did you work for it? I rather doubt you kilned the bricks and sawed the wood and built it yourself. No, you probably get paid way too much to sit in the AC. So I really don't think you're deserving of that house at all! Hand it over!

Ppen, they wouldn't BE HERE if they hadn't decided to break the law and come here. Who did it first matters in this case.

It is irrelevant if they had an incentive, most criminals do. And when the jig is up, it's over.

THAT their employers do wrong is another separate but equally worthy issue to discuss, but the two ARE NOT INTERTWINED. Nobody exploits someone who isn't here, do they?

They CHOSE to take the chance and come, and when they get discovered, they have to go home.

In the broader sense, the reason they never fix their own country is because they won't stay there to fix it.

Imagine what would happen in Mexico if all those millions had stayed and said "we're not going to take this"? Their country will never get fixed until they themselves do it. And then they will WANT to stay there.

He was smart enough to write for the Washington Post and win a Pulitzer, but not smart enough to follow the law? Or was it he chose not to follow the law of this country.

Perhaps part of his punishement can be to write a story about the effect of his identity theft crime on the citizen whose SS# he stole.

The two are not intertwined. NOW that is ridiculous. Ever hear of supply and demand. There has to be a demand before there is a an ocean of supply.

You seriously also believe it's not encouraged by employers to bring the rest of the family over. Well it is! I know because Im Hispanic and privy to fact by my own multi million dollar employer.

@Conan Who's land? Mmmmm... lets see. My genealogy is very interesting to be sure. My family owned mines in Mexico, California and Alaska and they killed some of the people there to avoid uprisings and to continue profiting from land that they were not entitled to (imo) they stole a lot. One of my best friends is from Guanajuato, where one of those mines was, until the revolution drove my family out. My ancestors might have killed one of hers (it's possible) but I am happy that I would never do such a thing.

When thinking about this topic its important to be a compassionate human being- that's what this story is for. I work with the public so I already have that. Most parents I talk to who are from somewhere else (legally or illegally) came here so their kids would get a good education --that didn't infringe on my child getting one. If you live in the real world and forget the hype you might not be so angry. It's easy to blame someone else when we perceive a threat (i.e. lack of jobs, or funding for social programs) I think immigrants serve as a convenient scapegoat for those who feel threatened. Like "Oooh if it weren't for them (immigrants) all our problems would dissolve."

Right.

@momof4 hoisted any strollers up onto the grass lately?

There is no point in this continued debate.

One side is against illegal immigration.

The other side continues to make claims that their opponents are against immigration in general.

I'm not against immigration. I'm perfectly happy with anyone moving here, as long as they fill out the proper paperwork. It's the exact same paperwork I would be expected to fill out to live in their country.

However, I'm against arguing with idiots. And I'm against people that all but accuse me of racism. Until someone points out a reason why they shouldn't go through the proper paperwork, I stand where I do. This guy could have and should have done it, and I have yet to see any reason against that.

And yes, if they were here illegally, and failed to pay proper property taxes, (some do, some don't) they did cause a detriment to our public schools. I'm not sure how anyone could fail to see that.

It may have been Ron WHite (the Redneck Comedy storyteller) who said something along the lines of ...Americans being such welcoming people; if you knock at my front door and ask for water, food, shelter, help, I gladly give it. But if you put a ladder up to my 2d floor back window & sneak in ....

I think Vargas should blame his guilty mother for putting him in such predicament.
Vargas should have return to phillipines voluntarily or be deported, even though phillipines may be a horrible, lousy country, as soon as he realised he is an illegal.
I don't think Vargas was jumping the line though his mother appear to be guilty of unfairly jumping the line and acted in a devious manner to give him a better future which he is not entitled to. There indeed may have beeen many instances where people who tried to enter the West legally but still not allowed in due to one reason or another. Anyway, it is still wrong for anyone to jump the queue intentionally. I too did not like it when I was queuing up to buy a rail ticket, a horrible nonwhite with a tendency to jump the line suddenly got served first.

Vargas did try to apply but was told he'd have to leave for 10 years and the reapply. Which seems silly to me--he's not going to go on welfare. He could have just gotten married, which seems easier to me, but he didn't choose to do that.

The illegals are doing "slave labor?" Where? I live in Texas and grew up near San Antonio- the "undocumented" immigrants aren't slaves, they're laborers. And if they're working for $4 and hour, it's because they're stupid. Construction work or and house cleaning (and restaurant food prep) are all jobs that normal working class Americans have, too. If there are sweat shops around here with poor little Mexican grandmas chained to sewing machines, they're very well hidden.

I've seen copies of my ancestors immigration paperwork. Of note is that they signed an oath giving up loyalty to their old country.

I don't think that most illegal immigrants are bad people, and I do think that there should a more streamlined process to allow them to be here. But they DO need to do it legally, they DO need to pay taxes (NOT just sales tax and pass-through property taxes on rent), and they shouldn't be allowed to go on any type of government assistance until they've been paying full taxes for a reasonable amount of time.

But I'm quite willing to give some slack to someone who's been here for 20 years and didn't himself break the law.

Read the fine article. You'll find out that he:

* obtained a fake Philipines passport
* used that to obtain a US driver's license
* used that to obtain a Social Security number
* photocopied the Social Security card to eliminate "call immigration before hiring" notice on the original
* obtained employment using the doctored photocopy
* was able to go to college due to all of the above

Tell me, how is any of that not breaking the law?

Unless you're a Native American, which I highly doubt since they're almost extinct,your ancestors came from somewhere that isn't north America.

Humans aren't native to North America. They can be classified as an aggressive invasive species.

@ahw "if they're working for $4 and hour, it's because they're stupid" ???

Maybe it's bc they're hungry. Do you know what that's like or are you a fucking robot?

Actually here in California, a seventeen yo 7 month pregnant woman died recently bc her bosses denied her proper shade/water breaks as she toiled in their fields. Sounds like being a slave to me.

http://farmworkersforum.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/merced-contractors-in-pregnant-farmworkers-death-among-californias-top-tax-debtors/

It's good to know that waiting in lines and filling out forms is what makes someone a true Murkin'. haha-- it kind of does though! Now I'm depressed.

Yes IRA someone already pointed that out- should I have said Siberian? Maybe we're all "out of Africa" if we go back far enough. Is the passage over the Bering strait any more or less a noble journey than the one through smugglers gulch? Did the Siberians have to wait in lines and fill out forms? It comes down to privilege. I have a passport, so I get to go places. I have privilege. Am I more deserving of that privilege? Am I a better human being? Because I have a piece of paper to tell me my name?

or are you a fucking robot?

Well, we can't all be a badass dom, now can we?

Unless you're a Native American, which I highly doubt since they're almost extinct,your ancestors came from somewhere that isn't north America. I'll bet you don't use the word illegal to describe them when you tell their story of coming to America. Do you?

***

Yeah, and where are the Native Americans now? Stuck on reservations, because they thought they would be nice and welcoming to the poor immigrants who didn't know how to plant fish or have a clue about how to survive. They welcomed diversity and cool new foreign treats like beads and whiskey.

They should have listened to King Phillip and Tecumseh.

Anyone who holds a passport is oppressing the proletariat.

" I have a passport, so I get to go places. I have privilege. Am I more deserving of that privilege? Am I a better human being? Because I have a piece of paper to tell me my name?"

Am I missing something, gspot? Do other countries not give passports? is the only way to get a piece of paper with your name on it to sneak into the US and get one illegally?

And yes, kids of illegals DO mean our kids don't get a good education. If you think that's not true come check out the schools in the austin area that are mostly hispanic. They aren't good. The teacher in any school has to teach to the slowest student, and kids who don't speak english well or at all will ALWAYS be the slowest students. We're pulling our kids from public schools this year, for that reason and the fact that they cut the gifted and talented programs in the budget cuts, but not the 1-1 teacher to student ratio for the slow kids. Unreal. And we wonder why US schools are falling behind.

My littlest is 2 now and out of the stroller, so no hauling it around anywhere anymore, but thanks for asking!

I support people surviving by any means necessary- it's a tough world! I don't think our govt has any real prob with more consumers coming in (they want to train and use them and so does the upper class), but politicians use the issue of immigration to stir up emotions in the public and gain votes.

@ahw I've worn many hats ;)...but...

@momof4... Ive worked at a title one school in Little Saigon for many years-- I recently resigned to work on other projects. I like that our school serves those with special needs and those from other cultures. I obtained a transfer for my son to go to a blue ribbon school in a wealthy neighborhood - it was a bit of a drive, but totally worth it since he is now entering junior high honors classes. I don't feel entitled to a public education for my child but I know how to work around the perceived limits placed upon us by our locale. Socal is very diverse, but I feel enriched by said diversity. When looking at kindergartens I thought: Would it be fair to send my son who was obsessed with greek and norse mythology at the time to a school where the students come from a home w/o one single book. No. Do I want those students to suffer and be sent back to a country w/o the opportunity for any kind of education. No. That's where I'm coming from.

"I support people surviving by any means necessary"

Crack dealing, gun running, heroin trafficking, child prostitution -- apparently they are all lucrative means of survival and the people doing it consider it necessary.

And really, who cares? The only people who utilize these services probably own passports.

Evil, evil passports.

Those migrants from Asia, South America, Africa, Middle East, illegals and legals are most probably giving a bad name to the probable small minority genunine homeless people who are looking for a decent country to call home. While I think those migrants, legal and illegal, who stooped to unethical or undesirable scams such as marriage scams, benefit scame, education scams or baby making scams or used by family scams (such as this Vargas case) should not be tolerated as it denied equal opportunity to others who come from a more disadvantaged background.

@Gog- A passport was just an example of privilege. Imagine for a moment that you have nothing- no papers, no SS#, and no letters of recommendation. Would that change your desire to achieve something in life? Would you just look down into your empty hands and go "Gee, I guess I'll tuck my tail between my legs and forget the whole thing." Maybe you would. Some people with all the chances in the world don't do shit. The purpose of this man writing this story is so that people learn to care, to relate on a personal level with others who weren't born with the same chances. Obviously, some have missed the point.

Sure, a passport may be a privilege, but it's a privilege of a citizen. I don't get a Russian passport, for instance. Not a citizen.

Perhaps you're confused, but the land bridge to Siberia disappeared long before passports were issued.

As to not "getting the point", what's not to get? A poor person travels without papers to get a job, or failing that, to commit crimes in a wealthier and therefore more lucrative market? Where's the mystery here that I'm not "getting"?

Was it a privilege to be born in the USA and have a better environment to struggle in than, say, the Philippines? Sure. It's called an accident of birth, like being born into wealth or a royal family. It's not the Queen's fault she was born anymore than the immigrant's.

The question you're really asking is "why don't you people feel bad when I tell you to."

Guilt may sell somewhere but this ain't the church for it.

Who created the passport? If the government that issue the passport is known to be incompetent, unfair, bad, corrupt, evil and have other endless bad qualities, it would most probably just become another burden to own a passport that is not worth respecting. It might just be better to have a less expensive and more practical travel card for travellers who are citizen or noncitizen.

I'm not saying "feel guilty" I'm saying if you talked to someone real, instead of just looking at facts and figures, you might be a little less narrow. My friends mom works in a sweatshop with mostly Vietnamese women here in orange county. The shop makes clothes for forever21. How do I know? bc she and I were coworkers who became friends who built trust and she told me-- she doesn't tell everyone that her mom works in a sweatshop. A Mexican family works there too. A mom and a Dad and their little boy, who is old enough to attend school, but doesn't. His parents are so terrified of being deported, they don't send him to school. Life where they are from is so bad that they would rather come here to do that. It's not a guilt trip- it's the real fucking world. Talk to someone and you might learn a thing or two about it.

People who kept on telling about those socalled "sad" immigrant vietnamese or cambodians or of other origin stories are just giving excuses for these types of asian immigrants misbehaviours to manipulate the system via such a devious manners.

"I'm saying if you talked to someone real, instead of just looking at facts and figures, you might be a little less narrow."

Oh, come on. Don't concede defeat by resorting to personal insult. Make a better argument instead.

The original article is personal, and touching. I find that the personal can sometimes be the best argument, and the most humane. People who disregard personal experience are maybe the least compassionate towards themselves and others. Maybe this journalist accepted student aid, maybe he didn't -we can only speculate. He clearly isn't a lecherous cretin, and neither are the slaves, oops, I mean factory workers making clothes for forever21. Do you want that job? Do you want that life? I doubt it. The American dream is, and has always been, that ones children will have it better than they did. No piece of paper, or lack thereof, is ever going to change that.

The American dream is, and has always been, that ones children will have it better than they did.

Yes, but in order to partake of it, you need to be American, or wait in line and jump through the requisite hoops to become American via legal measures.

Why should this guy get to jump the line? To be rewarded for ignoring the line altogether?

I'm for letting in scientists and entrepreneurs who have something to offer, but this is not 1860, and we aren't in need of people to populate the West. Quite the contrary.

"I mean factory workers making clothes for forever21. Do you want that job? Do you want that life?"

We didn't have clothing factories where I lived, but I did get to mix toxic chemicals to clean industrial smokestacks. Then I drove a truck, tended bar, moved pianos, collected overdue student loans, and worse. Life am hard.

How about if you knew I helped 50,000 homeless refugees enter the US at the end of the Vietnam War? Would you consider me empathetic enough to pass your vague and strangely self-serving test then?

Bike messenger subculture is an interesting bunch of brave souls.

I can only imagine what the chicken suit subculture is like!

I agree with you Amy. This is not 1860. Anyway, if we go to their eastern or asian countries, poor and jobless, they would not be too happy to accept us in anything either. Either they would just treat us like a criminal or slave or ignore us like a parasite.
I bet those illegal asians don't mind working in factories cause they are too preoccupied with enriching themselves, earning money, even though it is illegal for them to milk the systme via their illegal activities. Anyway, working in factories or other menial jobs is nothing to be ashamed of. The fact they are lllegals(just to enrich themselvs) or doing something illegal is something to be ashamed of.

Why are there refugees? Maybe bc the USA went over there and bombed the shit out of that country and shattered their way of life. We also sell weapons to other countries and create wars that drive people to seek out a home where they don't have to go to sleep at night wondering whether they'll still have an intact roof over their head in the morning.

Forget traditional weapons--Monsanto is fucking with the livelihood of the people here and in south America as we speak-- the subsistence or small scale farmers there cant grow shit, w/o the risk of a huge tax. If they want to eat, and they know how to grow and harvest crops, where the fuck do you think they might find themselves? If you guessed here then you get a gold star.

http://www.phantomreport.com/monsanto-signs-royalty-deals-with-argentine-farmers

No wonder they're trying to get in by any means necessary. Our govt creates so many unfathomable problems everywhere but here

Yeah you work hard too, get in line- I had a paper route at age 12 and rode my bike around our neighborhood at the crack of dawn with that bag strapped across my back. That's not even comparable to watching your school aged child lie there on a mat in a sweatshop while you sew some little bitches capri pants.

Those third worlders even let their child lie on the floor, in their own shops, even when they are not refugees but rich business owners in their own asian countries of origin. I saw that quite common happening in thailand. It is always the case that those thirdworlders want to get rich at all cost and yet they want to blame the west for all the tragedy that happened in their own countries of origin.
So, why should they transfer third world problems to the west where many in the west are also struggling to survive?

I've been helping the children of immigrants and the disabled population since I began volunteering at age 16. I'm against many things being done the way they currently are, Amy. I actually have some pretty big plans in the works and I'm heading to West Virginia on Wednesday for further insight and inspiration...check it out-

http://www.patchadams.org/ssdas-2011

Obviously- I'm already on that path, but thank you for your encouragement. I hope other readers will take that advice to heart and move forward for positive social change. We might disagree on this but you're pretty wise! Rock on Goddess!

Gspotted -

So there would be no refugees if there were no war, and war only exists because America is bad, which makes me bad for helping the war refugees enter the country without passports, which are also bad.

Okay. In that vein I offer a prayer:

"May the crystals beneath your feet continue to flow healing energy to strengthen your aura, and thus attract the angels who guide you to your destiny, free, unfettered from disagreement, and oddly alone for some reason which probably isn't your fault but due to the patriarchal war society of white men who rule America for financial gain while crushing the souls of minorities just like when Daddy disappointed you for not providing a pony at your party like he promised to even though he swears he never did, that bastard. Ramen."

@Gog-Don't hate me because I'm a beautiful visionary, hate me because I'm better than you. I hung out with my Dad yesterday- he's hella cool! No Pony, but he taught me carpentry and how to shoot, so you might have to tweak my prayer a little bit. Clearly I'm not alone- with so many people to love and help why should I be?

No matter how much America helped those refugees or socalled refugees or those thirdworlders whose only interest is to get rich, those thirdworlders would never be satisfied and would continue to blame america, even when those thirdworder living standards improved or become richer as a result of American aids. Let them fight among themselves, if they wish to, let them let their child sleep on the floor, if they wish to, cause their ever increasing asiatic or eatern greed would cause us to sleep on the floor, if we are not careful. That is their cultural problem that we should avoid inflicting on ourselves, unknowingly.

THOSE people!

really?

Gspotted... even though I don't agree with you on illegal immigration, I understand where you're coming from and these are complex issues. Obviously the illegal immigrants aren't some evil psychos who are nefariously out to do wickedness, and those who portray them that way do so because to admit otherwise is to admit to having a part in their pain.

I think it is great that you are helping people.

I dot disagree that there are folks that need help. I disagree that opening the borders wide and renouncing control over them is the way to go.

Its been a while since we considered these options, but our carpet cleaning business has been doing well ever since. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

GRacias por l . a . informacion, haya sido delaware gran ayuda, years old us encuentro preocupado por chicago perdida andel cabello.