Speaking from personal experience, it is all about an intense fear of being alone for me. But I'm getting better and better at setting boundaries and I am way happier now than I ever was with all the losers I have dated.

I'm figuring that though not identical... much would apply to nice guys too.

For me, it was low self esteem that caused me to not want to be alone. It started when I was 20, blinded by drugs, I put up with a real asshole who I'd everything he could to ruin my self esteem. Sadly, he succeeded but I dumped him before I was completely destroyed. I eventually got clean but without drugs to fall back on, I became dependent on attention for a high. That led to all sorts of horrible dating decisions but every year, I mature a bit more and realize no one can make me whole inside except me. Maybe by the time I'm 30 I will be emotionally healthy enough to sustain a normal relationship. :)

Amy, got a question for ya: I read on Amazon about Branden's book and it sounds good. But I'd like to ask: doesn't true self-esteem involve having some empathy, compassion, and tolerance for others as well, including those who don't have the world's highest self-image?

I ask because, 80% of the time in my experience, the folks who self-professed great self-esteem were also the most self-centered, arrogant people I ever met. I personally believe I was hounded out of my last job by a psychologist who, I am certain, would claim to have fantastic self-esteem. It's fine to honor your own feelings, but does that mean the other's feelings shouldn't ever count? Isn't there room in the self-esteem paradigm for trying to help others with lesser thoughts about themselves? Because frankly from my POV, the self-esteem movement to a large extent is really just a "me, myself and I, and f**k everybody else" movement.

When I was younger, I was afraid of being alone because I thought it was really, really boring. I was a wimpy, bullied kid who was picked on during high school, had no friends, stayed home all the time, and DID find it terribly dull. I ended up losing my virginity at 17 to a much older guy who treated me like absolute dirt. I put up with it though because I didn't have anyone else, and I still thought it was better than being trapped at home all the time.

As it turns out, I just needed to reach the age where I could move out. When I went off to college, I still suffered from low self-esteem and didn't have the best social skills. (Turns out those take practice, and I'd never had many opportunities to practice.) But no one cared that I'd been excluded from the mean-girl slumber parties in second grade, and I was at least able to make friends.

Now I'm 41 and aside from a small group of very close friends I'd do anything for, I pretty much just don't care. I'm actually an introvert and don't enjoy being around people that much. But it's much easier to say that, now that I know I CAN have friends if I WANT them.

It sounds like a good book with very good suggestions.

I have to ask one thing though. In these sorts of books it is always about the "nice" person suffering...what about their friends and family? They suffer too. "nice" is "nice", male or female. It is used to control, manipulate, punish anyone else who wants boundaries, or a different life or alone time.

"Nice" also has a tendency to be used to avoid responsibility. How can you be mad at me, im soooooo nice. How can you not like me and want to be around me all the time cuz im soooooo nice?

Meh on nice for anyone.

sourlime, I read this book a few years ago. The author does point out the negative aspects of 'nice girls' and how the effects they have on those they relate to. Manipulation was definitely covered. Great book in my opinion. In fact, I just picked it back up off my shelf this weekend to leaf through.

I stood up for myself today in a meeting. It's not the first time I have, but it is definitely the most aggressive. I think I am a very nice person, but my mother is nicer than nice, so I think I got it from her. I know when I was younger and confronted with situations that I felt were wrong or unfair, I would just go with the flow. It wasn't necessarily out of any of those reasons listed...maybe it was more of a belief that people fuck up and I make mistakes, too, so go easy on them. Plus, I think I had an over-easy ability to forgive people for fucked up things. As I have aged, I am less forgiving and, as a result, will not allow someone to treat me unfairly; so, I speak up when others are treated unfairly as well. I didn't always do so when I was younger out of a fear of retaliation and the hard work it would take to constantly have to be on my "A" game so-to- speak. I think I was lazy and liked being able to slide above or below the radar. Today, however, a Dept. Head tried to say I had poor attendance because I was out one day and late three in the last term. All of the days except one were for court because the people who own the house I rent quit paying the mortgage, and I received an eviction notice. The other day I was late was because my daughter graduated from the fifth grade. What prompted this action, though, had nothing to do with attendance. I am rarely absent; this term was an exception. Really, the DH was just retaliating because I told her the PowerPoint she created needed to be edited. I didn't add "severly edited," but I wanted to. Her writing skills are atrocious and her grammar competency is limited. We both teach college English. I know she is intimidated by me because of it, but I am not about to have a PowerPoint presentation that represents all of us in the department (and is shown to students each term)reflect poorly on my professionalism. I have had to point out several grammatical errors on documents she has created to be distributed to students and future students. She can't stand me for it. I try to be as tactful and private as possible about it, but, alas, I strike a tender nerve. Interestingly, I am one of a handful of white teachers in a predominantly black school and the only white teacher in the Learning Support Department.

I showed my documentation and proved through emails her knowledge of my leave time and suffered through the stuttering. If I could have sold stuttering, I'd be a rich grammatical bitch right about now!

Sometimes or alot of times,it is the culture, such as the much bragged about asian culture(by some asians who live in their privileged dream world or who don't know any better) that abused and manipulated negatively on our niceness or our vulnerability. That is why more people need to talk about it or discuss about it to prevent certain unpleasant culture from damaging our individual life or independence. Some eastern community or some eastern related culture are so brutal that it takes alot of effort or suffering just to reverse any of the damaging consequences caused by their manipulative eastern culture.

While being overly nice is a real problem for some people, qdpsteve has a legitimate point. One of the fruits of modern feminism has been to tell women not to accept any sort of submissive role in relationships. This results in in-your-face abrasiveness ("why are you holding that door for me"). I expect that such women would claim that they are demonstrating self-esteem.

This results in in-your-face abrasiveness ("why are you holding that door for me").

Which would result in me letting it slam in their face. I never seem to come across this sort of behaviour though, in any of its manifestations such as "I can carry my own damn bag" or similar. Does it really happen?

I work in a mostly male environment and we hold doors open for each other. If you're walking side by side and reach a door, the person who opens the door is generally blocked from going through easily by the other (if it opens outward). It's not only common courtesy, it's just physically less awkward.

I thought our public schools had brainwashed students to have unbounded self-esteem, even where none was warranted.

Isn't part of the job of a parent to help your child develop real self-confidence? I am not talking about the every-kid-gets-a-trophy kind, but a talent or ability that your child has developed.

With a little work, almost everyone can be good at something. People with real self-confidence aren't easily manipulated.

It takes time and effort, which is why everybody doesn't do it.

How would being alone play out and what would be so terrible about that?

Maybe because some (many? most?) people can't or won't put up with themselves. And being alone means putting up with yourself.

I've always been a bit of a loner myself, and even then it took awhile to get really comfortable with myself, accepting all the warts, wrinkles, greyhairs and character faults - or fixing things that needed change.

The only problem with that is now that I have a good level of equanimity in my life, I'm somewhat loathe to add a dating relationship with its potential to play merry hob with that equanimity.

I think that what bothers me most about "nice girls" is that they are unable to say "no." As a result of that, and because they can't deal with conflict directly, they are the prime movers in the female habit of talking behind others' backs and creating cliques. As a scientist, I work mostly with men and have since I started college. The direct form of interaction is so refreshing.

I like being alone in a westernised society who respect our individual independence and individuality. I just hate being alone in a horribly oppressive asian or islamic society where they tend make us liberated women who enjoyed being alone feel uncomfortable.

Haven't read that one, but this reminds me of a book that I did read (and now I can't remember most of it): Elizabeth Hilts' "Getting in Touch With Your Inner Bitch," 1994. With cartoons by Nicole Hollander.

While Miss Manners would clearly never approve of the title, from what I DO remember of the contents, she would likely be pretty comfortable with what the author says. (The mantra in the book is a sweetly stated "I don't think so," to be said whenever you're in danger of behaving like a doormat.) However, this is one book that MRA psychologist Bernard Chapin is angrily opposed to - he's said so in Amazon, his columns, and at least one of his books, so maybe I should read GiTWYIB again. (BTW, he has 20 pages of Amazon reviews he's written!)