I've been in this situation before (smoker lived downstairs), and I dated a smoker for several years. Lots of discussions about how their habits affected me.

I honestly think that long-time smokers can get desensitized to the smell. I remember, with the upstairs neighbor, having her smell my nice wool coat that was hanging in my closet. From my perspective, it REEKED of smoke. From hers, it "smelled fine." I pointed out how the hallways smelled, as did my carpet. She smelled nothing. So, from her perspective, I was being oversensitive. From mine, she was being insensitive. Luckily, I was in a short-term lease.

Get the condo association to seal off Ms. Jane's condo, that should cure the problem.

I seem to recall that a man's condo is his castle...

If she does not like it, she should move to a place where smoking is not allowed.

The real problem here is not the neighbor. The real problem is apparently crappy construction. If she can smell her neighbor's smoke, she must also be able to hear everything that goes on in that bedroom - and vice versa.

Walls between condos or apartments should be airtight and reasonably soundproof. That's the real issue she should be going after. Ripping open the common wall, insulating and sealing it, and refinishing should not actually be all that expensive - for that matter, it's an entirely reasonable DIY project. Bill the costs to the condo association.

Smokers (of both tobacco and pot) absolutely get desensitized to the smell. I have a friend who smokes in her car with the windows up, gets out, and thinks no one knows she's been smoking... and she reeks. Then, there are the potheads that smoke weed in the car, and think no one knows.

I don't think "the real problem" is crappy construction. I lived in a pre-war building in New York at one point, and a smoker moved in next door the month before I moved out. The walls of that building were fortress-like, and it had been renovated (with double-pane windows, etc.). But, my apartment smelled like a bar day and night from the smoke. It was horrible.

If a restaurant is putting out cooking odors, they are made to spend tens of thousands (or over a hundred thousand) venting it. (I know a planning and land use lawyer who talked to me about this.) How is it okay to make your smoke or your sound spill over into another apartment? Would you argue that it's okay to play loud music day and night and anyone who doesn't like it should move?

I've always cracked up at the supposed gag of kids smoking and then covering it up as though that works. The writers probably smoke like chimneys and don't realize just how much they stink.

I don't give a damn about the health consequences of smoking, it should be banned because of the aesthetics (and that smokers don't look cool at all, they look rather stupid actually.)

I live next door to the only chain-smoker in our building. It's not nearly as terrible as "Jane"'s problem, and (mostly) stays out of my apartment, but on the days where it leaks through my door, it certainly does suck. Unfortunately, smoking can damage the nasal passages and reduce the olfactory sense, so the smoker indeed doesn't smell the smoke as strongly as non-smokers do.

I don't think anyone has the "right" to pollute someone else's living space with anything that can mess with health. Yes, it's stinky, but more the point, secondhand smoke isn't exactly a health tonic. I feel really sorry for people stuck in that sort of living situation who have asthma or other breathing conditions, or who are trying to quit smoking (or have made agreements with other people to that effect - can you imagine getting blamed for smoking you're not even doing?).

I agree that it sucks, and because I hate the smell of smoke, I would be glad if it weren't allowed, but the fact remains that it is allowed, so her choice is to put up with it or move.

What if it were food smells that were bothering her? For example, I've had a pretty nasty experience with popcorn, and the smell makes me feel sick, so I try to avoid it. If I was in her situation, and the neighbor made popcorn every night, I wouldn't have the right to try to stop them.

On the other hand, with second hand smoke there is a risk to her health.. so I agree it's a more serious problem. Not to mention the potential fire hazard. Still, I think her best solution is to move, or push the condo board harder, or she can cross her fingers and hope really hard that the neighbor moves out.

The issue needs to be taken up with her HOA. Her neighbor has a right to smoke in her own home.

If smoking were to be banned in one's home, can you imagine the precedence that sets for those seeking to further their own agendas and special interests next? No pets allowed for people allergic to cats? No wearing perfume for those with scent allergies? No cooking with peanuts for those with kids who have peanut allergies?

Her putting up with a neighbor who smokes heavily is unfortunately the price that's to be paid when you live in a crowded city such as NYC. Or when you live in a multi-residential building.

"Ripping open the common wall, insulating and sealing it, and refinishing should not actually be all that expensive - for that matter, it's an entirely reasonable DIY project. Bill the costs to the condo association."

a_random_guy, Only if it were that easy, but why should all the other members of the association share in the cost.

The neighbor's unit is not vented properly. Carbon monoxide seeping through to her unit would be deadly. The association should take steps to force the smoking unit owner to fix or install an exhaust system that vents to the outside instead of seeping into neighboring units.

Jen, that can be turned around - the price paid for living in high density environments is not being able to do everything you want. Example - smoking heavily . . . . and yes, even in your own home if it is deeply impacting others.

Two things - I am a cigar smoker, yet I never smoke at home. Second I am a believer in a man's house is his castle.

One I can give some leeway to the smoker and I can really sympathize with the condo owner. Now I am a believer in the owner decides. But in this case there are two owners - the condo association and the single condo dweller. Her castle ends at her front door while the condo association ends at the entrance to the building. The smoker is a renter I am actually amazed that condo renter is not moved on. Let his lease expire and move him on. End of problem.

Actually if she smells pot - why not turn him in - call the cops - every time he lights up. Actually would that not be against the associations rules/by-laws. I bet a nice lawyer could hammer that point home to condo association - I bet the DEA or NYPD would like to seize a whole building for some extra cash. The association knowingly allowed possible drug purchases and use in their building after being warned - repeatedly.

Her neighbor has a right to smoke in her own home.

And I have a right to play Rebecca Black's "Friday" on repeat, at top volume between the hours of 2 and 4 a.m. in my apartment that shares a floor, ceiling and walls with others.

You're right, it's a tricky issue. But unless a neighbor is dousing herself in perfume so often that the smell permeates your belongings through the wall; unless the cats are crawling in through your window or urinating on the carpet above so that it ruins your ceiling; or unless peanut fumes are so regular and so pungent as to force you to dryclean all your kid's bedding and clothing, I don't see how these things can be compared to having a neighbor who smokes. *Maybe* the peanut thing because cooking fumes can cause an allergic reaction -- although many ovens have vents to the outside.

As Amy said, the line gets drawn (as with noise) where a "reasonable" person would find it a nuisance. I think allergic reactions to smoke, the increased drycleaning bills and the need to replace curtains/rugs is a nuisance, and I'd like to think I'm reasonable.

In short, a smoking neighbor encroaches on MY space -- which I'm paying just as much for.

So what if it wasn't smoke, but cooked cabbage instead? Say, if your neighbor boiled cabbage everyday and made your entire condo smell like cabbage, would you want to ban cabbage?

For the sake of argument, what if you had an allergic reaction to the smell of cooked cabbage? Or someone burned the building overcooking said cabbage?

"Should another neighbor REALLY be allowed to make the clothes and furniture and air itself in somebody else's apartment smell?"

Of course he should! Don't you know that smokers are a persecuted minority in this country and that non-smokers are a bunch of over-sensitive, lying, killjoys who want to ruin their innocent fun? [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I've had the same problem in apartments and I agree that the smoker is 100% in the wrong.

I'm betting the "plastic" smell is crack. You could call the cops and report a drug house (smelling it form that apartment is probably cause) or you could sue the association to solve the problem. Neither is great. Maybe you should sell.

Railmeat - sparing the arguments that long-term smoking bodes ill for a person's health - if you're unable to smoke in your own home, or in restaurants & bars where it's currently banned, or in front of your building (as one person in the article complained about) where can a smoker go to have a cigarette, then?

"Deeply impacting others" is a phrase that can be used as an umbrella to further selfish agendas. I'm really wary of this.

My own little anecdote: I had a crazy tenant who moved in above us with a daughter. Daughter developed allergies shortly after she moved in. Tenant was first convinced it was the wool rugs that the landlord put in and had the landlord remove them. When the allergies continued, she demanded that the landlord clean the vent ducts because she believed that the allergies were due to mold. My very nice landlord obligingly cleaned the vent ducts.

When those two actions didn't remedy the allergies, she declared that her daughter was allergic to cats. She knew we had several cats. And even though her daughter never came into contact with our cats, her message was clear: because we had cats, and because her kid was allergic to cats, she was going to seek channels to get our cats removed from the building. Of course, there was not a damn thing she could do about it.

So where does the line get drawn?

This really makes me want to flee sterile suburbia. The tranquility is mind-numbing. The only smells I get are the neighbor's wood stove on a winter day, or steaks on the grill in the summer. Neither of those are strong, and both smell pretty good. If I want to do anything I have to hop in the car and drive for five minutes.

The inverse-square law is my friend.

This can be solved by good HVAC remediation, and should be put to the board like that, AND the owner of the other aprtment. NOT "OMG, the whole building has to QUIT!" Even IF the person who feels the effects should want it to be so, it is dangerous to legislate everything.

I know from previous experience in my place [built in the 60's like a freakin' fortress] that if I have my exhause fans on, it will draw smells from other units. Sealing wals completely is problematic because the whole structure has to expand and contract with the weather, and you can mke thinks buckle if you seal too well. BUT. if you make overpressure in your own unit, IOW forcing air into it, it should move the 'bad' air out through those same cracks. If Smokestack Boy puts his own vent on, then the air moves FROM your unit to his, and the problem is resolved. The owner of the other unit should really wonder what they will have to do about renovations later if it is bad, though. They migh have to take that unit to the studs to get the smell out of iyt later... I've renovated such units, and it ain't much fun.

Having good tech, and knowledge, allows you not to need to ban everything...

because eventually, they will hate the fact that you are cooking SauerKraut, and suddenly the olfactory police show up to take away your cabbages.

And I have a right to play Rebecca Black's "Friday" on repeat, at top volume between the hours of 2 and 4 a.m. in my apartment that shares a floor, ceiling and walls with others.

In Los Angeles, and in California, there are noise ordinances that prevent you from doing just that. So by law, a person doesn't have the right to create noise disturbances in the areas where I reside.

And as far as I'm aware, there is not yet a law that prevents a person from smoking in their own home in any state.

But it may come to that in the future. As I've said, what concerns me most is what other permutations it may take in the future.

interesting problem--the right to not be polluted on your own property. A form of property rights.

How about other polluters? Should any property owner endure pollution coming onto their property? Why or why not?

Water and air pollution notably do not respect property lines.

I am surprised the green movement has not drawn upon this line of reasoning more.

Jen I would have demanded an allergy test for the kid.

Also Jen - one of John's Rule of Life - "A gun is a good form of defense but a lawyer is better." Yea I am bit loath on this rule with the abuse of lawyers and lawfare.

If I where you I would get a lawyer on retainer. Put a couple hundred bucks towards one I do not think it has to be alot of money - thru when you do use them the bills pile up. Get a couple of his/her business cards and put them in your wallet. So when ever somebody starts saying they are going to sue you or make legal difficulties for you - just pull out your wallet and get out a card and give it to them - say call my lawyer I have him on retainer. Many people will balk and back down at this point because if you have got lawyer and his card and money paid for the lawyer you are serious. It is like having a handgun ready for an arm wrestling match, meaning you are going to be very very hard to deal with. You want the person to think dealing with you is going to be a fight.

I agree with Susan and Angie. You guys can talk about "shoulds" and "rights" all you want, but if the condo board has refused to act, apparently the neighbor does have the right to smoke as much as s/he wants, and LW's options are to put up with it or sell. And that goes for loud music and playing children and anything else too.

She should move to a place that does not allow smoking if it bothers her so much.

Amy, look into City of Los Angeles Noise Ordinance section 41.57 for that soap opera actress.

John, the problem went away when the kids' allergies did, as well. Interesting, right? It was seasonal allergies all along. That tenant was an entitled bitch who sought to make her problems others', as well.

Makes me happy to share a mountain with two other good neighbors on the other sides... though one of the houses across the valley blasts Wagner every morning at sunrise.

Hey, it's all part of living in Idaho!

Where does the line get drawn?

Hows about the person thats been living there for years gets a little more defference, the benifit of the doubt, over the person who has been there less than a month?

@SwissArmyD, "This can be solved by good HVAC remediation, and should be put to the board like that, AND the owner of the other aprtment. NOT 'OMG, the whole building has to QUIT!' Even IF the person who feels the effects should want it to be so, it is dangerous to legislate everything."

Be careful not to confuse contract with legislation. The former is voluntary, the latter is not. The first thing that matters in this case is what the two parties can work out between themselves. Next would be what their contracts with the buildings' owner and/or the homeowners' association contain, which may or may not take it to the level of a civil suit. None of those things are or involve legislation, merely the voluntary agreement of contract and the enforcement thereof.

@BOTU (entire comment)

The relevant issue is demonstrable harm. Many studies have been conducted to determine what levels of certain substances cause actual harm, thus there are perfectly justifiable laws prohibiting greater than X levels of those substances being released into air, water, etc. (Many such laws have gone way too far, and some have not gone far enough, but the principle of demonstrable harm is sound). And you're right, it is entirely a property rights issue. The sequence for redress in such matters should be as I describe above to SwissArmyD, with actual legislation being a very rare last resort because laws concerning property rights already exist, and have since at least the very beginnings of English Common Law. There is almost NEVER a need for new laws of any kind, especially the nanny state, busybody laws so ridiculously common these days, because there are almost zero circumstances not already covered by law and precedent going back many hundreds of years.

Viros don't use property rights to advance their agenda because they're not interested in protecting property rights, which are rights belonging to *individual human beings* (which are the only things known to exist that can even have rights). Viros want to *violate* property rights so as to *prevent* individual human beings from using their own property, including their very lives, as they choose (subject to not violating the same rights of other individual human beings, whence the laws that date back so far, such as the doctrine of "Coming to the Nuisance" - which, by the way, is particularly applicable in this case).

In Los Angeles, and in California, there are noise ordinances that prevent you from doing just that. So by law, a person doesn't have the right to create noise disturbances in the areas where I reside.

Well, someone has to report you for it to be a violation (or a cop has to hear it while in the area). So, I can play my music as loud as I want as long as nobody actually hears it. In a residential setting, it only becomes a problem (a nuisance) IF your neighbor hears it. For that reason, I think the same rules should apply to smoking. If it's not permeating my apartment, I don't care. Smoke away. If it is, it should be treated the same way as music that I can hear.

I think the issue isn't regulation, but consideration. If you're sharing space, you're bound to piss off your neighbors (and some are more easily pissed off than others). But, if a neighbor comes up to you and says the smoking is bothering them/damaging all the fabrics in their home/causing allergic reactions, then you should smoke outside, every time, end of story. If smoking is that important to you, move to a house that doesn't share walls.

I volunteer in the local library, shelving books. I can definitely tell which books have been checked out by smokers. They reek.

Please use this opportunity to think about what a "right" is.

And be consistent.

It's not easy.

While you're at it, please note that if smoke can make it from one apartment/condo to another, so can bacteria and viruses.

Hope your inoculations are UTD.

I smoke cigarettes. A lot. I also live in an apartment. It never occurred to me that the smell is getting into other people's apartments and I've never had any complaints (of course, none of my neighbors speak English and would have a hard time complaining). It's a big apartment, though and I really can't imagine the smells escaping. I don't smell anyone's cooking until I go for the elevator. Smoking outside is not an option as I live in a high rise. I do keep it pretty aired out though for my own pleasure.

It's true that, as a smoker, my sense of smell is next to useless. You all are right of course. That doesn't keep me from thinking, "oh sheesh, what a bunch of ninnies." every time someone starts whining about smoke smell.

Library books, really? For fucks sake. I use the library constantly and those books spend an awful lot of time in the shitter with me. Can you identify those books as well?

Again, you're all perfectly correct and I'm a degenerate. However, I'm allowed to have an emotional reaction that makes me think you're all a bunch of ninnies. Smoke is not coming through this idiot's electrical outlets for God's sake.

One more thing. Nothing in the article passage indicates that this woman has approached the smoking neighbor with her concerns. It's straight to the home owners association for her.

Fucking ninny.

Years ago I was a heavy smoker and lived in a condo that I bought. My neighbors were against smoking before it became the fashionable thing in NY and complained to me that my cigarette smoke was seeping upstairs and that they always smelled it. I could have told them I owned my place and had a right to smoke wherever I pleased but I felt that it wasn't fair to make two non-smokers feel sick in their apartment so I made the choice to go outside and smoke in the parking lot or my car in cases of when it was cold. Nothing is worse than rude smokers. I was very conscious of the fact that while I loved smoking, there were people who chose to abstain. Eventually I did quit but not because it was gross. Cigarettes went up to around $11 a pack and at two packs a day, that was that. I have to admit that I still love the smell. That may sound odd, but I walk past someone smoking and miss it so much.

Lots of smokers claim that cigarette smoke isn't that big a deal. Lots of them also keep their car windows open at least a crack so they can blow the smoke outside.

I'll bet a fair number of smokers belong to both groups.

"Please use this opportunity to think about what a "right" is."

Seriously. Telling this woman she has a "right" to a smoke-free apartment, and that her neighbor "should" stop smoking, is about as useful as telling fat women that they have a right to love and that men should be attracted to them.

whistleDick wrote: "I smoke cigarettes. A lot. I also live in an apartment... I really can't imagine the smells escaping."

What you're reading is true, the odor does get through. And for non-smokers, the odor is a real drag; I find it's really harsh, albeit not as pungent than ammonia. Exposure to cigarette smoke gives me a headache easily.

I don't agree with Amy that a slight whiff of cigarette smoke is appealing. Stuff is put into cigarettes to make them burn right. The odor from some quality tobacco, enamating from a pipe, sometimes has an appealing aroma to me.

I don't have anything to add beyond what others have said except that others besides her are probably affected by the bad odors, too, and a collective approach towards the emitter might yield an improvemed situation.

Maybe she'll luck out and the neighbor will get lung cancer and die before too long.

Here's something for you. I have a neighbor directly upstairs that screams uncontrollably and at all hours. It sounds weird, I know -- but it's true. The guy clearly has some sort of mental disturbance. In fact, he's doing it right now. He seems to have very wealthy parents who have squirreled him away in a luxury apartment where he can do his screaming.

Does it bother me? Sure, at first. But then it's like living next to railroad tracks. You get used to it.

Is he infringing on my space with his wildly ranting screaming? Yeah. But, I'm not going to call the cops. He can't help it. Having family members with mental illnesses, I have a lot of empathy for the mentally ill.

It's not really a good analogy for a smoking neighbor, but shit, have a little empathy and suck it up. There are a lot worse things in life to worry about. After all, people are generally good and they have their foibles. Just enjoy your own life and love all those around you regardless of those foibles.

Life isn't perfect, but it's a beautiful thing. Stop being such a ninny.

"Maybe she'll luck out and the neighbor will get lung cancer and die before too long."

Nice. You non-smokers are way better people and deserve to live a long, judgmental, hate-filled, nit-picking, full-of-shit, life. I'm not a stern believer in karma, but I'll bet the smoking neighbor will outlive you.

This question shouldn't be answered by forcing another tenant to have their life become filled with foul and unhealthy odors.

If you decorate with ugly furniture, that doesn't come through the vents.

As far as the tenant/allergic daughter question goes -- she ASSUMED causation. Maybe the daughter developed allergies independent of the carpet, etc.

Granted this is from the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety (CCOHS). I can't find any current U.S. website that will admit this:

What should I know about the research into the health effects of ETS?

There is a consistent finding of a relative risk* greater than 1.0 for non-smokers who are exposed to ETS. This finding shows that there is an association between certain diseases and exposure to ETS. While no single study can say that there is a 100% chance of health problems as a result of exposure to ETS, an association between ETS and various health conditions is considered very likely because there is:

• the proven link between heart diseases and lung cancer to active smoking,
• the presence of several known carcinogens in environmental tobacco smoke, and
• the general acceptance that the risks of certain diseases are directly related to the amount of tobacco smoke inhaled.

*Briefly, a relative risk of 3.0 or greater would indicate a very positive association (what could be reasonably termed a "cause" of the disease) while a relative risk of 1.0 is considered neutral. In more general terms, a risk of 1.3 translates into about seven excess deaths in 1000 persons over a lifetime, or an extra 30% chance of developing the disease

Again the health risks in ETS are, in general, overblown. I will grant the odor to non-smokers can be bothersome. But I would ask if the same person is bothered by heavy perfume, body odor, or food odors. There are also people are looking for anything to whine about. Some times it is in the nose of the beholder.

Being polite does work. As above I commented I smoke cigars. I am also extremely lucky that I can smoke inside many bars where I am. If somebody does have a problem with my smoking I would like them to tell me. Most of the time I will apologize and make an effort to not bother them by put out cigar, going outside or move tables. Actually I ask people nearby before hand if my cigar will bother them. But it really irks me when people just jump to the complaining and basic rudeness right off. I then get defensive and will be less likely to cooperate.

So has the women asked for the neighbor to stop of try and resolve the situation.

Wow, Kristen - you're a pretty cool person and a good neighbor.

Thanks, Amy, but I really do think that rude smokers are terrible. I grew up in a very divided family when it came to smoking so I always tried to be respectful of non-smokers. And yes, its definitely idiotic to smoke. My grandfather had his voice box removed due to throat cancer when I was young so the fact that I ever smoked after seeing that is pretty sick.

OMG I am living this nightmare. My next door neighbors are chain smokers, and it's compounded by the fact that during the winter they chainsmoke in their garage, which I live over.

I've had to resort to spending $150 for a HEPA filter that I have to run non stop all winter just to be able to stand being in the room. And in the summer, the guy smokes on the front porch, which is directly under my kitchen window. I don't have A/C so I am stuck dealing with it.

The problem with cigarettes is that they don't kill people fast enough. And yes, I used to be a smoker, and yes, smokers are immune to the smell. The grand irony here is they have twin five-year-old boys and they "don't want to smoke around the kids because it might make them sick" (they were born prematurely).

Dude, if I can smell it in my house, you can bet your ass it's in yours. FAIL.

I have a similar problem. I have an apartment while I work a job. It is a no smoking apartment. But I found out that only refers to inside the unit and the common path ways. My upstairs neighbor smokes on his deck so I have to keep the windows closed.

When I was a board member of a condo association we had a conflict between two neighbors. One couple liked to sit out on the porch and chain smoke. The smoke often times drifted into the nieghbors yard and home if the windows were open. It was a nasty a fight. The recieving neighbor had health problems. Actually served the board with some sort of notice that his doctor was testifying that it was an immediate risk due to his health conditions.

I don't see a good way to draw a line. Both sides seem to have reasonable arguments.

The noise is an interesting comparision. The walls in my apartment are paper thin so everything gets through. Right now my upstairs neighbor is watching the evening news -- maybe a talk show. I cannnot quite make out the words.

To everyone dealing with outdoor smokers, I say small, handheld fans taped to your balcony or or kitchen ledge and aimed at them. My friend, who had a newborn, and I did this when a smoker moved in downstairs and insisted his porch, his property. Fine. Four handheld fans later, he learned what unwanted smoke in HIS face night and day felt like.

I say this as a long-ago smoker who has had pleasure of learning firsthand how un-fun chemo can be and who does not want to and should not have to risk my hard-won health by inhaling someone else's smoke. It's not music. It's not screaming. It's not cabbage. It's cancer, whistleDick, and call me a ninny, but I call it being cautious so my kid gets to grow up with a mom, me.

This happened to an old girlfriend who lived in this fancypants condo tower in Hollywood. Beautiful place... Airliner views of the city, etc. Old folks next door blew their tobacco right through the unit, and throughout it, whenever she opened a window. She was kind of a priss, and after we broke up, it was fun to remember how pissed off she was about it.

Well, I guess I'm happy that I'm not the first person to comment that the "plastic" smell is probably crack.

So, yes, one could presumably call the police for that.

"To everyone dealing with outdoor smokers, I say small, handheld fans taped to your balcony or or kitchen ledge and aimed at them."

I fucking WISH.

They SMOKE, they can't smell it. Right now, at 12:15 on a Friday morning, I am sucking secondhand smoke, courtesy of my dumbass neighbor.

We've also had the "cabbage smell" neighbors in another building. That got voted out as "not our problem".

You know what, though? Cabbage smell will not kill me. Secondhand smoke will.

And, to whoever said it will not come through the outlets - you're an idiot. I tracked my winter chainsmokers to one specific outlet, where 90% of their stank comes in. Yeah, I used to smoke, but in the grand irony of the universe, I discovered I'm allergic. LOL.

You are an idiot.

I am not unsympathetic. I've lived in places like that (once, directly above a smoker's bar). I still say "renovate".

If the interior walls are hollow drywall, open up the wall, put in plastic sheeting, problem solved. For bonus points, put in some soundproofing while you're at it.

If the interior walls are brick or concrete, the problem may actually be simpler: open passageways in the walls for running cables and pipes. A bit of wind outside, and air flows from one unit to the next. If that's the case, the solution is even easier: remove the switches and plugs, and squirt in enough expanding foam to seal the passageways.

A bit of DIY work is a lot less stressful than going all litigious. It also solves the actual problem, without messing with someone else's life. Of course, solving the problem takes away all the fun of fussing and whining about it.

The idea that you can prohibit someone from smoking in their own home is just ludicrous. Even more so on a basically libertarian forum like this one.

"I have a similar problem. I have an apartment while I work a job. It is a no smoking apartment. But I found out that only refers to inside the unit and the common path ways. My upstairs neighbor smokes on his deck so I have to keep the windows closed."

You see how this is going? Inside the apartment doesn't work for him. He doesn't want smoke on the common pathways which are outside with the breeze for God's sake. Now, he's bitching that someone is outside, on his deck, upstairs (smoke tends to rise, by the way).

"And, to whoever{sic} said it will not come through the outlets - you're an idiot. I tracked my winter chainsmokers to one specific outlet, where 90% of their stank comes in. Yeah, I used to smoke, but in the grand irony of the universe, I discovered I'm allergic. LOL.

You are an idiot."

That was me and I stand by my statement. Really? It's wafting through your electrical outlet? Really? Plug something in. Get one of those kid-proofing plastic plugs. Jesus.

I'm still pissed off about this subject, so I'll post again.

Daghain, if ninety percent of your second hand smoke problem is coming through an electrical outlet, you're not in a lot of danger. You really think that such a minuscule amount of smoke smell will give you cancer and kill you? I won't call you an idiot, but you're certainly wrong in this case.

"We've also had the "cabbage smell" neighbors in another building. That got voted out as "not our problem""

This was actually an issue that people like you brought up to the committee? We don't like this families dinner choices? Really?

Life is too short to spend it as such a busy body. Roll with the punches a bit more, bub. You'll make yourself crazy looking for that hermetically sealed bubble in which you'd love to live. It doesn't exist and, if you'd open your eyes, you'd see that imperfection is a beautiful thing. Embrace your cabbage eating neighbors and settle down a bit. Stop sniffing around your outlets looking for a reason to believe that your neighbor is less of a good person than you. You'll be happier.

It's true, smokers do get way desensitized to the smell of smoke, and it is possible to have an allergy to cigarette smoke as well (my sibling has it, his face puffs up like a pufferfish and his eyelids get swollen and purplish).

I'm just surprised this building still allows smoking indoors, with the fire hazard and the cleaning costs. It's incredibly difficult, if not downright impossible, to get the smell of smoke out of an apartment after someone's been living there, short of ripping up the carpet, steaming the walls, and getting rid of anything plastic or porous that absorbed the smell.

Whistledick, are you being deliberately obtuse? Not wanting to smell the stink of boiling cabbage is not about not liking someone's dinner choice, it's about not wanting one's own home stunk up by someone else's dinner choices.

Cigarette smoke is no different. Sure - you've got a right to rot your lungs any way you choose, and I don't give a crap. But I don't want to smell the stench of cigarette smoke. I don't want to smell it in restaurants, on the street, and certainly not in my own home.

This is not being a busybody.

If you think it's okay that a neighbor floods your apartment with smoke, is it also okay that they flood it with bathwater (on a daily basis) or play music that you hear day and night?

It doesn't matter what I think is "okay"; I have no authority over the situation. The condo board seems to have made it clear that they're not going to do anything about this. So, now what?

Poor analogy, kf. You can't make people feel an emotion. It's a really bad example to support the argument you're trying to make.

LW also can't make the neighbor stop smoking.

"Whistledick, are you being deliberately obtuse?"

No. I'm not being obtuse at all (deliberately or otherwise).

"Not wanting to smell the stink of boiling cabbage is not about not liking someone's dinner choice, it's about not wanting one's own home stunk up by someone else's dinner choices"

It's exactly about not liking someone's dinner choice. How else could it be described? I love the smell of boiled cabbage. It reminds me of my mother's cooking. How is this neighbor supposed to know that you find it offensive?

"This is not being a busybody."

Yes, it is. Living in an apartment means that you'll have to live near other people. Other people have lifestyles that you may not find perfect. They may smoke, eat cabbage, bang their girlfriend loudly, whatever. You can either whine about it and be miserable, or you can appreciate that you're living in close proximity to other people. Does everyone love the smell of your cooking? Where do we find the list of approved recipes that suit Lamont Cranston?

Do yourself a favor and buy a house in the country.

Here's another reality of apartment living. There is a little girl in the family below me that is learning to play the piano. My God! That shouldn't encroach on my private space! So what?

Here's an example of how reasonable people learn to live with one another. I play the cello. Whenever I sit down to practice (with a mute on the strings and at a reasonable hour), this little girl's parents give her the signal that now would be a good time to practice her piano. We can totally hear one another and, in fact, have played duets through the floor. It's funny as hell. We've never met and don't share a common language, but we have this funny little routine.

If you're in a city and living in an apartment, you'll have to deal with other people. Make the best of it and you'll be a happier person.

Perhaps these days there are apartment and condo complexes which won't allow smokers to buy or rent. Does anyone reading this know for sure?

I couldn't agree more with you Amy. If I had any indication that my smoke was getting into my neighbor's apartment, clothes, or hair, I'd change something to see that it didn't.

My complaint is with many of the posters on here that are clearly imagining some of these offenses. You have people complaining that others are smoking outside. They're complaining that others are smoking on a balcony *above* them. They're claiming that it's coming through the goddamn electrical outlet. There isn't anything about these things that are impacting anyone's health or quality of life. They've seen their neighbor smoking and now they're imagining it out of whole cloth. They want a hermetically sealed life and they won't get that.

We've all seen the person who passes someone smoking outside and twenty yards away who feigns a stupid little cough as though their lungs are being choked out. It's ridiculous.

@Lamont Cranston, "Cigarette smoke is no different. Sure -you've got a right to rot your lungs any way you choose, and I don't give a crap. But I don't want to smell the stench of cigarette smoke. I don't want to smell it IN RESTAURANTS, on the street, and certainly not in my own home. This is not being a busybody." [emphasis added]

I don't smoke, and I don't care one way or the other whether anyone else does. What I DO care about are the rights of the individual.

There should be no laws prohibiting smoking in private establishments. Restaurants are private establishments. Whether or not smoking is permitted in a restaurant (or bar, art gallery, drugstore, porn shop, ice cream stand, or any other such place you want to name) should be at the SOLE discretion of the business owner, subject to his own contractual obligations (if he's renting the space, for example). If you don't want to eat at a restaurant that allows smoking, don't go there - you have no right to impose your wishes on the establishment.

Just because a place is open for business doesn't mean anyone but the owner gets a say in his policies. That sign so often posted - "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" - is a wonderfully succinct expression of the principle that "open to the public" does NOT mean "the public is the owner."

For the exact same reason you are fully justified in NOT permitting smoking in YOUR house, a restaurant owner is fully justified in PERMITTING smoking in HIS restaurant. Laws that create invalid, artificial ideas like "public accomodations" are just as much a violation of YOUR right to set policies for your own house, car, etc. as they are of the rights of business owners. Or do you never let members of the public (and don't forget, YOU are a member of the public) on your property?

Advocating rights violations isn't merely being a busybody, it's taking the side of creeping, ever-encroaching tyranny.

Restaurants usually have employees. Employees are not required to suck in toxic air as part of their employment. The non-smoking rules in restaurants is usually workplace safety/ health related rather then annoying-the-customers related.

Yes, we should have them. Workplace hazards that cannot be avoided are one thing and an employee must be made aware of them. All workplaces must mitigate dangers and hazards to employees. Allowing smoking is like allowing a contaminant. It is a huge liability to the owner, too. To knowingly allow a known toxic substance in their operation? Lawsuit city.

What about miners? Or factory workers? Machinists? Should they all just go somewhere else to work where there are less hazards since they are not forced to seek employment at any particular place?

Workers deserve to have a safe place to work. Allowing workplace hazards to be accepted with the argument of "go work somewhere else if you don't like it" is unacceptable.

Why should we find it acceptable that any workplace is spewing forth toxic fumes and contaminants?

Take the allowing smoking in a restaurant angle and see how far that rule gets pushed by unscrupulous businesses. Don't like those fumes? Live/work somewhere else.

When the smoke goes further and impacts more people than the smoker themself, it is an issue.

All workers deserve a safe work environment. As safe as can be workably achieved.

Whistledick: That was me and I stand by my statement. Really? It's wafting through your electrical outlet? Really? Plug something in. Get one of those kid-proofing plastic plugs. Jesus.

I invite you to come experience it. It took me a few days, but I found it. Yeah, I can block that, and then we'll see where ELSE it's coming it. That's just the worst offender. And, when the moron is smoking on the front porch and it's coming in my kitchen window, I can't stop that. So yeah, cigarettes don't kill people fast enough. You cannot expect 70's construction to be, well, airtight. Get over yourself.

"This was actually an issue that people like you brought up to the committee? We don't like this families dinner choices? Really?"

Yes. I was on the HOA board at the time. Yes, I rolled my eyes too.

Seriously, you want to experience crazy, do time on an HOA board. You can't make that shit up.

And, triple post to clarify that *I* was not the one bitching about the cabbage. But am I bitching about the smoke? YOU BET YOUR ASS. My carpet reeks. My furniture reeks. It's worst in the bedroom over their garage (thank GOD I did not make that my bedroom). The HEPA filter helps a lot, but for fuck's sake, how can they tell me they don't want to smoke around their kids and not know that if MY house stinks, THEIRS does?

Oh, and BTW, my condo is for sale. So PFFFFFT.

Just like they can work somewhere else if they do not like it, they can also live someplace else. And did anyone ever think to approach the offending smoker so that an arrangement might be worked out, as adults, to remedy the situation?

I owned my home for 21yrs am a nonsmoker, watched several family members who smoked take their last breath due to cancer or emphyzema...not easy to watch or forget. After my daughter developed HD a cancer of the lymph nodes, I forbid any smoking in my home at all. Even outside. Unless they walked across the street to where no one lived. 5 yrs now,after my daughters passing, I decided to downsize and move out of my home, it was time for me to move on from the hurtful memories of her illness and start new. So as an 50yr old Lady I thought a private condo situation would be best for me. I love the condo and the people here, but now I understand the effects of the lower condo having heavy smokers. I have lived here for 2 months and have been so sick from the dirty ashtray smell and smoke fumes. It is worse in my bedroom then permeates my condo.I cant sleep in my bedroom so I sleep on my not so comfortable couch. I keep the bedrm windows open, door shut and bathrm vent on all day and night. Still the smoke smell is like a wall when I come home and open the door to my place. ( I live in a very cold area at winter time, so my elec and gas will now also be much higher)Even worse, I have developed respiratory problems, my eyes are swelled and red, people want to know "What is wrong with your eyes?",(yes I have seen a DR., he beleives my health issues are from the smoke isssue and feels I should move quickly) It took so much courage for me to leave my home, empty my daughters room...(extremely hard to do) to give my self a fresh new beginning, and all I have now is a stench smell and constant irritation,cant use my bedroom, stinky clothes, cold from open windows, and etc etc. Yes this condo has the cement floors, but the secondhand smoke gets in somehow. And it is constant. I love this condo I searched diligently for a nice place to live for 6 months. I am not even completely moved in and unpacked and now I have to begin to search again. I want to stay here, I met wonderful people and it is just the right distance from everything I need, including my grandchildren. It has been such an emotional ride for me. Smoking kills!!! I understand that it is hard to quit. The people below me own their home, and I am told they are nice people, but I cant get my self to offend them by asking them to change their habits to help me. I am in tears and wish they new the anguish I am going through. But since I lease and dont own, I have to just move, but I wont find another place I like as well as this, in this area. I feel bad for the owner of my condo...who can he sale to or rent to with this problem?....unless they are also chain smokers...which ruins your home, my house smells like bars used to when smoking was allowed. Findling a place quickly like this place, not going to happen, and the cost of another move is frightening,but I am looking,what other choice do I have. Sorry I needed to vent and I am not exaggerating. I am in tears writing this...thanks for listening. God Bless You All and Merry Christmas!!!

you have a right not to have your house stinking because of someone else - cigarettes or otherwise. i have a similar problem with my neighbour upstairs, and in my last place with a neighbour downstairs.

to an extent i tolerate it, as they're not heavy smokers, and i think whilst toleration is part of the compromise of living in close conditions, so is CONSIDERATION.

why should you go to the trouble to move to a non-smoking building? the board don't have to deal with it, so they're not bothered about it, and are too lazy and coward to deal with the confrontation. you have a right to breathe freely without this, more than any right they might claim to smoking. the health implications are totally different to that of the smell of cabbage, clearly that's the comment of a smoker. i'm sure i've never heard of someone dying of second-hand cabbage smell....

i don't have an answer for your sadly, i wish i did. i despise my upstairs neighbour, but, for me, he's muslim, so come ramadan i'll be having bacon for breakfast and for dinner and cook every type of smelly food possible inbetween. if i was allowed to have barbecues i'd do that too.

Wow.. This thread is long. I just hung up with my cousin, whose neighbor is composing of the smoke smell coming from his condo. He's in Texas for
work and isn't even here. I smoke about 5 cigarette's per day and am staying here. But the windows and doors are shut, I air out the place 2x per day at 6am and 10pm. I burn candles and spray. Personally, I think it's ridiculous, get a grip. There Might be smell but actual smoke? The bedrooms butt up against her unit and the doors are shut. Get a life. This is just plain harassment. It is what it is. People do things all day long that bother me, who am I to tell another what to do. People have some nerve as if it's all about them.

I have problems with odor in my high rise apartment too. I think as someone noted earlier, that it is the air pressure that is possibly contributing to the odor going from one apartment to the other. For example, if you have all your windows closed and your smoking neighbor has 1 window open, your apartment will have lower pressure than the smoker. Force of air goes from high to low. You can open some windows to try to balance the pressure. If you have an exhaust fan running, this is sucking air out of your apartment. Lowering the air pressure too.

I tested this theory in my apartment. My bath room seem to always have cooking or some other odor (obvously there most be some cracks or leaks somewhere in the bathroom too). I thought leaving the exhaust fan on and closing the door would help but it actually made the problem more prevalent.

I'm always amused when a smoker declares that they're considerate of others and want to know if what they're doing is bothering anyone else. I'm sure there are a couple of you in existence, but you're rare. Just two examples in my own life, my parents and I were at a local restaurant in the old days when people could still smoke in them, and some guy wandered in and asked us if we would mind if he smoked. I said I'd prefer you didn't (and no, not snottily) and I got attitude from the guy. Like the only answer could be that he was welcome to poison my air while I ate. This wasn't a full restaurant, and he could have sat somewhere else. Another was when we were in Ireland, in a Chinese restaurant. A doofus and his girlfriend and supposedly other friends were sitting up on a raised area of the restaurant, and he was puffing away-so I asked the waitress if we could sit somewhere else so we wouldn't have to smell smoke. This pinhead made sure to let me know as he was leaving that he "had the right to smoke". Strangely I didn't have the right to chose not to smell it while I ate. So, just two examples of why we hate you people. If you declare that you're polite about it, you're likely either lying or delusional. I don't care if you ruin your body, just don't affect mine.

this is a tough situation, but it seems to me like scent invasion shouldn't be happening

I have lived in the same condo for 31 years just outside of Boston. A few years ago, the condo unit next to mine was sold. All of a sudden my living room and dining room are unlivable due to the intense cigarette smoke. Speaking to the smoker about the issue only made her violently angry. She believes that she has a right to do whatever she wants, regardless of how it maybe harming someone else. She is a totally inconsiderate and uncaring nicotine addict. The long and short of the whole issue is that our condo has just become a non-smoking building. It took a bit of work and some intense complaining, but it was all worth the effort. My smoking next door neighbor is ready to kill people as a result. I've never seen an addiction turn someone into such a monster. She has absolutely become insane over this new non-smoking rule in our building, and she is foul and abusive to me now.
Tobacco smoke causes cancer and death. Loud music, pets, and food odors do not. Addicted tobacco smokers are inconsiderate, that's why we all need stronger laws to protect those of us that want to try and stay healthy by avoiding tobacco smoke at all costs.

For the past few years I have had difficulty working out in yard, then in 2015 it got harder and harder to breathe. After many tests, it was a CT scan that showed COPD, emphysema and scarring in my lungs. I quit smoking 8 years ago but the damage has been done. I got to a point I couldn't catch my breath and was coughing so hard I thought the top of my head would blow off, nothing was really working to help my condition. Finally i started on COPD herbal formula i purchased from NewLife Herbal Clinic, i read alot of positive reviews from other patients who used the COPD herbal treatment. I used the herbal remedy for 7 weeks, its effects on COPD is amazing, all my symptoms gradually faded away, i breath very more freely now! (Visit www. newlifeherbalclinic. com ) I recommend this COPD herbal formula for all COPD/Emphysema sufferers

Megan Flores
New Jersey, USA.