I used to live in an area with a lot of military personnel...and sadly, this should probably be simplified for about 75% of them, and probably 25% will need it read to them.

The military banned them for a time (2 weeks? a month? don't remember) from that part of town because it was too rough or whatever. Violence (where the police were called) went through the floor...a few gang fights but that was it.

I think that made meeting women there difficult.
1. Women were always on guard.
2. If a dude wanted a woman you were talking to, he and his buddies would just push you away. Nothing much you could do about it...fight and back and all the army guys gang up on you.
3. Just skewed the numbers so much. So the trick was always to find the new happening place before word spread on the bases. You maybe had 4 weekends.

I used to live in an area with a lot of military personnel...and sadly, this should probably be simplified for about 75% of them, and probably 25% will need it read to them.

The military banned them for a time (2 weeks? a month? don't remember) from that part of town because it was too rough or whatever. Violence (where the police were called) went through the floor...a few gang fights but that was it.

I think that made meeting women there difficult.
1. Women were always on guard.
2. If a dude wanted a woman you were talking to, he and his buddies would just push you away. Nothing much you could do about it...fight and back and all the army guys gang up on you.
3. Just skewed the numbers so much. So the trick was always to find the new happening place before word spread on the bases. You maybe had 4 weekends.

The poster was not actually the brainchild of the Navy, but of a feminist blog

Noooooot surprising.

it's critical to remind the public of these basic ideas.

That's as maybe, but was this seriously the best way they could think of to do it? "If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!" It's just...I can't even...So. Much. Snark.

Surely, if you feel it's necessary to spell things out so explicitly, instead of saying "Don't assault people," it's better to say that whatever action is considered assault and offenders will be punished. I notice a distinct lack of threat of repercussions for people who don't follow these "tips."

Carry a whistle![I]f you're worried you might assault someone "accidently [sic]" you can hand it to the person you're with so they can blow it if you do.

Because they're anticipating you're going to rape someone with a friend present. Well, they did advise you to use the buddy system.

so they can blow it if you do

Just thought that part bore repeating.

Also, anyone else find it creepy there's a (presumably) naked, faceless woman behind that poster?

It's spelled, "accidentally".

A poster is not the solution to the problems claimed in the first post, BTW. Given the location, anyone can find the provost of an Army base and register a formal complaint. If you claim those are being ignored, there are other avenues.

I was on the staff of NFAS Orlando. I'd love to hear how our training command was such a burden, given the contents of our trophy cases.

And all of this denies the basic need to hold people accountable. Its promotion fosters the ridiculous idea that there is a "do over" for everything and that a person is not responsible.

In Charleston in 1985, I was a barracks Master-at-Arms between sub assignments. One fine evening, a bruised/abraded female sailor stumbled into the vestibule on the first floor, crying. At word of this, the TV room emptied and the sailors fanned out - they brought everyone they could find within a quarter-mile, willing or not, to see if that was the perpetrator. The base police and I had to stop them. It was found that the silly woman had falled out of her friend's car on a nearby corner.
Yes, that's an anecdote, serving only to note that times have changed - because the military gets its people from the general population, who thinks that whatever they want is just fine, go get what is "yours".

#7 is just jaw dropping.
Riiiiight because telling someone you plan to rape them is always the most recommended way to start a conversation...

The Japanese on the main islands and especially on Okinawa are totally fed up with US Military raping Japanese girls. It's one of the reasons that the US has had problems getting a new agreement for troops to remain on Okinawa and is also responsible for harsh restrictions on liberty in the main islands. I've heard stories that the Japanese, who are more open in their racism than we are in the US, suggested a compromise in which military personnel of a certain race which committed 90% of the rapes not be given orders to Japan, but that would have caused problems for military public relations back in the US.

You guys are being authoritarian ninnies.

The armed services aren't a monolithic, single-minded technocracy of religious devotees. They're a splintered and sprawling collective of expenditures and enterprises.

And they're full of people who aren't very bright... They shut down the draft a few years ago: Perhaps you heard about that. They take who they can get now. And who they can get, and promote, is often an illiterate, violent hillbilly (or gangbanger) who knows little of couth or comity.

To imagine that everything from the armed services will be as clean & tidy, as polite and focus-group tested as a freestanding display in McDonald's is ludicrous.

You're pissing me off again.

I've lived near a lot of military bases, grew up military, am married to former military, etc etc, and find this obnoxious. Not just the poster, some of the attitudes posted above. Military people commit some crimes, sure, so do civilians. Unless someone has some sources I can't find, the military does not commit at higher rates than others.

I lived next door to some army boys for a while in college. Mom was thrilled. Not only did I have the police to call, but if I had a problem-ANY problem-with them, I could go to their commanding officer and it would be taken care of post-haste.

That poster might do some good in frat houses, though.....

Actually, with a professional force, we get a much better quality of military personnel that we did with a draft. Shutting down the draft has led to a better educated better motivated recruit. It has been a long time since a judge could tell a young thug, "Join the Army or go to jail."

I think that atheist, skeptic, Watkins, wrote this. Note #5.

Robert is oversimplifying the situation. Japan has cynically stuck most of the US troops on Okinawa, which has created friction with the locals. It's a pretty small island compared to the rest of the country. We, and Japan, are already spending billions to relocate 8,000 Marines to Guam.

This issue with the "land" is more complicated. The Okinawan city that sprang up around the US base in question (Ginowan, outside MCAS Futenma if I remember right) is now complaining about the noise from the helicopters. The US and Japanese governments agreed to move the base to reclaimed land, but the Okinawans want it off the island entirely. Since the helicopters are there to transport the Marines, that doesn't make too much tactical sense. Politically, the Okinawans see this as their last chance to remove more of the troops.

If one cares to look at the numbers, the US military personnel in Japan are involved in fewer crimes, per capita, than the locals. Being obviously foreigners, they stick out.

His politically incorrect point about the subset of the military who are involved in these crimes is true. Lest anyone think this is tolerated, I'll just note that 4 Marines were involved in a rape in Hiroshima that the Japanese government declined to prosecute. The Marine Corps court maritialed them and sent them to prison. Our standards are higher than theirs.

Hey Crid, nice stereotype, too bad it is simply untrue. The on average, the military is better educated than the average citizen. Most of the population can't serve. They are disqualified for drug use, criminal records, failing to meet the mental and educational standards, or being physically unfit.

First off I respect the military. A have a couple of good friends who serve. They are bright and competent people but most are older and have grown up a bit. Many I have met are nice and friendly enough. But here is the thing is many of them I met are the adage of young, dumb and full of cum. I have met soldiers and seen many exhibit behavior that is despicable or aggressive. Some are looking or fights and trouble and feel who they are allows them to get away with it. I understand a little but ask any young man and put him in a job that wants him to be a bit more on the testosterone. Through him far away from home. Give him a night out with the other crew and lots of drinks - it will not end well. This advice is very simplistic because it is for those type aka target audience understand.

You have to think is this advice is not just for those serving in the States it is those abroad two. Recently here in Korea their have been two recent incidents of soldiers breaking into an assaulting elderly Korean women. One was a rape and the other was very likely a too drunk soldier in the wrong house but still assaulting a foreign national. It is still bad enough that many soldiers have to try and live down bad images here of soldiers being given a free for all and all are rapists waiting to ravage the country. It is when incidents like these happen which can ruin and make a mission here more difficult. Here is a thing, one wrong incident will destroy years of hard work. A unit could have built a thousand houses and saved orphans from a burning building but that will all be forgot when some dumb horny guy decides that that girl is just right and no is not an option.

Yes this may be insulting but it is needed information. Many soldiers will read this and laugh or roll their eyes. But maybe just maybe some of these rules might make it into some dumb kids head at the right moment. But it helps towards the mission and role.

"That poster might do some good in frat houses, though....."

Seriously? I hope your being sarcastic cuz that is by far one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard.

Soooo what about date rape? They won't know not to do that if the poster doesn't tell them! *GASP*

Whether or not rape is more prevalant on military bases is not even relevant. Whether or not someone is intelligent or not isn't relevant either. I fail to see how a POSTER is going to to deter a would be rapist. If someone wants to commit rape, they are going to try regardless of thier age, military status, intelligence, or what some stupid fucking poster says.

Does anyone really think that someone is going to see this poster, and say "Hhmmmm maybe I WON'T comitt that rape after all. I mean was was going to attack that girl I saw walking home but #2 on that poster I saw really inspired me to do the right thing."
or "I know! I'll give her a warning first and give her a chance to avoid me so that if I do try to rape her, I can at least say that I warned her first and then have a fighting chance in court."

Seriously? Are people REALLY that fucking stupid and naive to believe this poster is protecting them from rape?

And last I checked, US Military service men didn't hold the patent on rape.

I think you're all taking the wrong message from this poster. For one, it's funny as shit and perhaps the most effective sexual assault poster I've seen in my 19 years of military service. It's brilliant.

Firstly, military people have a pretty warped and dark sense of humor and respond well to what their peers think of them. What this poster is saying is, "Hey, you fucking knucklehead, how simple is this? How could you fuck this up? It's simple ... don't rape anyone."

Secondly, and referring back to my first point, this feels like a poster made by peers rather than the ridiculously uptight people who make those AFN public service announcements and that makes it refreshing.

Finally, those who are implying that military people are somehow more stupid than the general public because they think that this poster's snarky nature will escape the feeble minds of servicemen are, themselves, far too stupid to join the military. Well, maybe the Army will take you :) (Sorry Army brethren, had to do it -- it's your cross to bear.)

Oh, and Navy people tend to be far more cynical and quirky than any other branch. If you knew shit about the military, you'd know that this is a pretty cool poster and more likely to be effective than the typical fare.

Please, leave us to our methods. We really are a different culture.

Yea I was going to comment about those AFN commercials. Some are so lame it is funny. Yo WhistleDick did you every get my email address from Amy, I might be down your way (if you are still there) get a drink at Commune or someplace!

This has to be a joke or a spoof.

#5 coming so close on the heels of the alleged "elevator attempted rape" non-story is a dead giveaway.

Of course, it could be serious, and written by Amanda Marcotte.

Which makes it just as dumb and useless.

Whistledick, I think it's funny as shit too. But I also have a twisted sense of humor.
I am just wondering why anyone would actually take it seriously to begin with. It's a poster. The message is pretty clear "Don't rape"
If anyone is actually taking it seriously, as in a serious 'deterent' they are likley more stupid than the person who they are trying to reach.

I've actually seen this poster before, or variations of it.

It's a parody of the "how to avoid sexual assault" tips usually directed at women -- but reversed so as to place the blame on the perpetrator rather than the victim.

In other words: it's tongue-in-cheek and meant to make a statement. Parody.

For example, the posters directed at victims usually start with:

1) Don't allow anyone to place anything in your drink that will cause you to lose control of your behavior.

This poster flips it, talking directly to the potential rapist. The message is that the rapist is the problem, not the victim.

Parody. Whether it's a good one is up for debate, but it is what it is.

By the way Amy, why are you singling out enlisted? Officers are also a representative subset of our larger society and, as such, are just as likely to commit sexual assault.

I would submit that military people, officer or enlisted, are far less likely to be so deviant. I have no study on hand to back that up. I just have years of personal experience with dealing with people who value honor, dignity, American pie, and all of that shit. And once the deviants are discovered, we deal with them far more harshly than the civilian system.

Yeah, John. I did get your email address from her. I got caught up in other stuff somehow. I'll send you contact information now. I look forward to that beer.

Obviously it is a snarky and sarcastic spoof of helpful advice to women. You're being too literal.

sofar has it right. Up until now "assault prevention" has been all about what a WOMAN can do to prevent herself from being attacked - seeing as women are usually blamed for being attacked in the first place. Looking slutty = asking to be raped. Sleeping with too many men = asking to be raped. And so on.

This poster is cool. I like it. It attacks the problem from a different perspective.

It's a wonderful spoof if it's a flip of what they advise women. I always wonder if any woman actually carries a whistle, and if so, has this ever worked? I mean, I've never read a story where a woman was almost raped but was saved when someone heard her whistle.

Sabrina,

--"I am just wondering why anyone would actually take it seriously to begin with. It's a poster. The message is pretty clear "Don't rape"
If anyone is actually taking it seriously, as in a serious 'deterent' they are likley more stupid than the person who they are trying to reach."--

Well, obviously. But they're trying to foster a culture that makes it very clear that sexual assault is unacceptable.

What? The company you work for doesn't have silly corporate messages hanging on the walls? The idea is that it all adds up to create a collective culture.

Believe me, this is far and away the most effective poster I've seen. You should see some of the laughable shit we put up with.

Amy,

"The poster IS a spoof. The military took it seriously. That's the point. How they're taking it"

No, they didn't. They know it's a spoof. As I've said, it's a way of saying, "hey dumb shit, don't rape anyone or you'll be the laughing stock of your peers."

We relate well to that motivation. A whole lot of motivation within the military is all about being held in high regard by the group. We'll jump on a fucking grenade if we'd otherwise be thought less than the other members of the group. That's how we work and that's why we're so effective. The people who published this poster know that.

"No, they didn't. They know it's a spoof. As I've said, it's a way of saying, "hey dumb shit, don't rape anyone or you'll be the laughing stock of your peers."

THAT's the reason they shouldn't rape? Would their peers really be laughing and saying, "Hey, man, didn't you see the poster?!"

As funny as it is, if my taxdollars paid for this poster, I resent it. We shouldn't have to pay to tell the military not to break laws. What's next, a "Don't kill innocent civilians" poster?

"What? The company you work for doesn't have silly corporate messages hanging on the walls? The idea is that it all adds up to create a collective culture."

Of course we do... I laugh my butt off on a regular basis. But HR takes those posters totally serious (or at least our HR Director has to pretend too because it's her job but she finds them as ridiculous as I do) because it's corporate policy to have them posted. They use them to try to prevent any liability or certain work comp claims and the like. I get why it's there but it doesn't make the stupid people any less stupid. Posters don't deter stupid behaviour. It just makes it more glaring when someone does act stupidly.

crid buddy, the military has been proven to have a higher IQ than the general public, perhaps you haven't noticed, but it's 2011. And mr. whistledick, thanks for your service

The problem is that the Navy higher-ups took this seriously.

Re-read your post, Amy, and I probably read it too quickly the first time. Now I see that you clearly wrote that it's a joke, duh, but the military doesn't get it.

Still, based on the quotes in the Fox article (which is all we have to go on), it seems like they MIGHT know it's a parody:

Navy spokesman Lt. Alana Garas told Fox News that the Navy post should have included more context from the start.

"The intention of posting this poster was to encourage discussion on a serious issue," Garas said. "It is a crime that will not be tolerated ... and the Navy will continue to explore ways to reach our sailors on this serious issue."

The way I read it was: "Well, we should have explained this better. But our intent was to create a discussion, and we were looking at interesting ways to do that."

I didn't see anything in that quote that says they weren't aware of the true nature of this poster.

And, in their Facebook post, they wrote "Bottom line: don't rape." I didn't see that as taking the poster literally, but, instead, as summing up the poster's tongue-in-cheek message: "Guys, if women have to take responsibility for THEIR safety, you have to take responsibility for YOUR actions. Don't rape."

"Guys, if women have to take responsibility for THEIR safety, you have to take responsibility for YOUR actions. Don't rape."

Has the self-esteem movement really created a generation of men who actually don't know that rape is a crime?

Oh, and I'm with M4 on the creepiness factor... the poster looks like some sort of ad for a porn version of Psycho.

"seriously? I hope your being sarcastic cuz that is by far one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard."

1) my point being frat houses are at least as well known for shitty sexual behaviors as the military and
2) If you want to see something more ridiculous, see your comment with the non-word "cuz" in it.

"my point being frat houses are at least as well known for shitty sexual behaviors as the military and"

And again... this poster would make a difference there because...??
Hard partying frat boys are gonna stop long enough to remember the message of some random anti sexual assault poster? And like they are actually going to pay attention to it while inebriated and hard? Yeeaahhh... because the "NO means NO' message clearly stuck right? And so did the "no alcohol consumption under the age of 21" law... oh wait...
I get the point of it's message, and do appreciate the dark humor part of it, but anyone who actually believes a poster would make a difference in how someone chooses to behave is kidding themselves.

"If you want to see something more ridiculous, see your comment with the non-word "cuz" in it."

It's illiteration and I don't see how my non-word makes my statement any less valid.

Has the self-esteem movement really created a generation of men who actually don't know that rape is a crime?

Of course not, and nobody is saying that. The point that the poster is trying to make is that telling a woman to carry a whistle and not fall asleep accidentally is equally as ridiculous as telling a potential rapist to carry a whistle and not have sex with sleeping people.

This poster is NOT trying to clue rapists into the fact that rape is a crime. It IS trying to point out the ridiculousness of the "Be careful, ladies, carry a whistle and you'll be fine" PSAs. It is a Reductio ad absurdum argument.

Hey Amy? Can I do a guest post?

Within 20 minutes of the original post the Navy replied on the comment section saying in part it's critical to remind the public of these basic ideas.

This doesn't really support the claim that whoever posted this intended it to be taken as parody. Actually, maybe the original intent (by the person or people who suggested using the spoof poster) was as a joke, but the people backing it up sound deadly serious. And as if they don't know what they're talking about. That commenter likely had nothing to do with putting up the photo and was simply instructed to address the other comments on the site.

This poster is NOT trying to clue rapists into the fact that rape is a crime.

But surely you can see that's how it's coming off, for the most part because of how it's been addressed by the people who posted it. I read the whole thing thinking it was a spoof (because it just had to be), but then I read the comment from the Navy. The original intent of the poster makes no difference if it's not used that way.

This poster is ridiculous - personally, I've always felt safer around guys in uniform, but I grew up on military bases so that may have something to do with it.

Sexual assault is a big problem in the military, and it's not funny, and it needs to be eradicated.

Weirdly enough, I've found guys in the military to be perfectly chivalrous...if you're a civilian. Not if you're a servicewoman. I gave serious thought to joining the military; I think it would have been an excellent career, but decided not to because I read the assault statistics and decided I didn't want to play those odds.

> The on average

...luvthat...

> the military is better educated than
> the average citizen

Yeah?

> the military has been proven to have a
> higher IQ than the general public

Do you fuckers seriously contend that our military is to be admire for its intellectual candlepower? Really?

> Please, leave us to our methods. We
> really are a different culture.

You won't let us... You "method" is to fatten every budget, and to beribbon every potato-peeler.

If the Pentagon's lights were as bright as you suggest, we'd be getting a LOT more bang for our buck... Unless your larger point is that these guys are brilliant at getting their personal needs met by taxpayers. In which case I find them no more admirable than any other federal teat-sucker.

YOu know, I knew a number of asshole in the army, so I'm not so niave as to think no soilder would ever commit a crime - hell one of the drill sergants in the barrack accross from mine was drummed out for stealing from privates and selling drugs.

But I always wondered how many of the rapes in Japan were a face saving measure to avoid the shame of being involved with a GI who wouldnt marry them

"This poster is NOT trying to clue rapists into the fact that rape is a crime. It IS trying to point out the ridiculousness of the "Be careful, ladies, carry a whistle and you'll be fine" PSAs. "

The two things are not equivalent, though. I agree that the whistle thing is silly, and that a lot of those PSAs are pretty worthless. But the basic idea of telling people (especially when it's a group that can be a bit naive about such things) a few things they can do to lessen their odds of being a crime victim is fairly sound. On the other hand, reminding people not to commit felonies is silly; no one commits a felony by accident. (Well, at least not until our government started criminalizing everyday behavior, but that's a different topic.)

I don't get this bit where, if we try to give people a few tips to avoid being a crime victim, it's considered equivalent to victim-blaming.

Several points:

A. The people who need that advice, happen to be the same people who will not listen to it.

B. The people that created that "list" are idiots so totally disconnected from reality that I do believe they'd fail the Turing test.

C. The people who treat that advice as if it has some value, are equally likely to fail the Turing test.

D. Having served in the military for 12 years, I've seen far more provably false allegations of rape than I have people convicted or even tried for an actual rape. Take that for what it is worth.

E. The vast majority of military members come from the Southern states, where most of the bases are. For every 1 New Yorker, there are 5 South Carolinians, 8 Georgians, etc. the military's personnel makeup gives it a particular cultural flavor. And contrary to what one might think of it based upon television, the educated (high school graduates and up) persons of the south take a dim view towards rape, to put it in the most mild of terms.

| the Navy is posting this

No it isn't. Some clown within the Navy posted it. And that clown may well recognize the character deficiencies of his nearby sailors with much greater clarity than YOU do.

Listen, this ain't McDonald's, OK? The Navy is big. And it's diverse in ways that fast food will never be. If you insist on some sort of rigid uniformity in these matters —especially to flatter your political correctness— you're going to be tragically disappointed.

"Do you fuckers seriously contend that our military is to be admire for its intellectual candlepower? Really?"

Crid - can you name a Naval job that allows you to be stupid?

How many barefoot deckhands wielding mops do you think they have?

Go talk to a recruiter. Look on-line. What you're thinking isn't the be-all, end-all today.

| can you name a Naval job that allows
| you to be stupid?

I can name several several which allow you to be venal... Beyond which brains don't help.

Is the "be-all, end-all" our topic?

In fact, just yesterday there was a thing ab...

Ah, here.

"It's spelled, "accidentally"...It was found that the silly woman had falled out of her friend's car on a nearby corner." - Radwaste

Raddy, it's "fallen." ; ) But thanks for your service and the story!

Ricky Gervais did a funny bit on one of his HBO specials about a postcard that went around England when the AIDS crisis was relatively new, telling gay men how to avoid AIDS ... have sex with fruit, masturbate out a window ... hilarious bit.

Link to Mr. Teflon's reference: The Best Leaflet in the World.

Crid, 1st story involved a defense contractor and a CIVILLIAN employee of the navy.

2nd story is more about politicains securing funds for "their" district to build crap the military dont need and dont want, and failing to grandfather in old ship designs for ships still in contruction. 2nd story is a political fuckup from start to finish

| a defense contractor and a CIVILLIAN

Sometimes I can't tell if you're kidding. See, Looj, that's how procurement works: A huge building full of self-interested military technocrats funds, until their retirement, a series of corrupt industries. After they retire, the industries hire them at inflated salaries. It's a payback thing.

Or were you saying there was no taxpayer money involved?

My point was that the people hired by political appointees to keep tax money flowing to the districts of the politicians who apointed the guys who hired them are less concered with the needs of the military and more concered with keeping thir bosses happy.

Personally I would classify any bribery or fruad in regards to military procurment as treason and execute those involved.

After the first couple of hangings such behavior would come to a quicker stop then the bodies jerking at the end of a rope

First off - ya sometimes military people get railroad and accused of things which they did not do or events get over blown. But not all are false accusations - some are actual rapes and assaults. Once again certain factors come in age/maturity, alcohol, friends/group, and so on.

If you take the military on the whole yes they will be quite smart and capable. I have met both types smart interesting mature men and young stupid aggressive practically still boys too. On general yes most military will be on the up side, but it is the specifics that will kill you. As above all it takes is one idiot to taint the group.

I do see this poster as part ass cover ass commented above with the HR department and posters. Which is needed in any modern army which has an image to maintain. Thru it will likely not work, it does cover yourself a little. "See look we did try and prepare the soldiers!"

As commented above this poster might do well in a frat house - yes because many of the soldiers are very much like the typical drunk frat boys - young dumb and full of cum. Just different routes in life.

Crid says, "Do you fuckers seriously contend that our military is to be admire[sic] for its intellectual candlepower? Really?"

Yes, Crid. Really. We're a pretty bright group.

"> Please, leave us to our methods. We
> really are a different culture.

You won't let us... You[sic] "method" is to fatten every budget,[sic] and to beribbon every potato-peeler."

No, sir. Our method is to do what the American people ask of us through their duly elected representatives and our Commander in Chief.

You are correct that ethical problems arise within military/contractor relationships just as sexual assault problems arise. It's a very large organization full of humans and human nature is certainly imperfect. However, I believe that military people are generally a very smart, ethical, and dedicated group of people that you're quite lucky to have at your beck and call.

My first reaction to your post was to be offended. It didn't take long for me to realize that your bile is simply misdirected. The very valid complaints you've put forward would be more appropriately aimed at Congress and the larger network of bureaucrats.

> Yes, Crid. Really. We're a pretty
> bright group.

Sell it, Kitten. Get out there and make the folks believe!

You're like a demented pageant director: "Sparkle, People! Sparkle!"

> Our method is to do what the American
> people ask of us through their duly elected
> representatives and our Commander in Chief.

Riiiiight.... Personal responsibility is not a factor. It's all a machine, and you're just doing what you have to do.

> you're quite lucky to have at your
> beck and call.

No sane man could describe the United States military as RESPONSIVE. 9-fucking-11 didn't change the idiocy of procurement... A direct fucking attack on the Pentagon brought no discernible change to military attitudes.

> The very valid complaints you've put
> forward would be more appropriately
> aimed at Congress and the larger network
> of bureaucrats.

For fuck's sake, Kitten, THE BUREAUCRATS ARE THE MILITARY!!! That's the most distinguishing characteristic!

The self-deception is breathtaking, simply stupendous.

Say what you want about Detroit: When America needed something better, we could buy it. Even with the insane bailouts, Americans were free to put the best thing in their garage they could find... The empty streets of the Michigan city reflect their good judgment.

The most poignant passage in the famous Iaccoca book was that as he tried to rescue Chrysler, he'd have preferred to keep the tank division and sell of the auto operations: He knew the tank division would always have a buyer, no matter what pieces of shit they were selling.

Crid continued to say, "If the Pentagon's lights were as bright as you suggest, we'd be getting a LOT more bang for our buck... Unless your larger point is that these guys are brilliant at getting their personal needs met by taxpayers. In which case I find them no more admirable than any other federal teat-sucker."

Here is where his post gets a bit more offensive and can't really be blamed on misdirection.

I'll address the inoffensive, yet naive, part of the statement first.

You are getting a shit ton of "bang" for your buck. You wouldn't believe the fucking bang. To be nonplussed by the might of the U.S. military reveals deeply profound ignorance. You've clearly never been anywhere near the "bang" that we're capable of delivering. It really is like holy hell raining down. Jesus fucking Christ it's one hell of a bang. It doesn't stop with one bang either.

Now for the offensive part of Crid's post.

He seems to think that the personal enrichment of the military member is the motivation behind his service. Here, he continues to show a profound amount of ignorance. Though I am not some bad-assed Army Ranger or involved in a heavy combat role, the sacrifices that my family has made over the years has been pretty significant. I can't imagine what these guys that are on their sixth tour in the sandbox have suffered. I'm not even mentioning their families.

We all love it, though. It's fun and we get to travel all over the world. We get some pretty good benefits as well. That's because the American people, through their elected representatives, are really good about appreciating our service. I think that's pretty cool.

It's you and your fellow citizens, Crid, who send us all over the world. We just do as we're told. If you think it's a cushy job, jump on in. You'll find a strange mixture of benefits and what we like to call "suck". I'm betting you've never experienced the suck.

The teat-sucking comment is really lame and offensive. The idea that we're preying on the taxpayer for our personal enrichment is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Suck my teat, you little bitch. You don't know shit.

"Sell it, Kitten. Get out there and make the folks believe!

You're like a demented pageant director: "Sparkle, People! Sparkle!""

I'm not sure why you're calling me Kitten and making pageant references. I just don't get the joke. It must be a reference to something. I must be a stupid military member with limited candlepower. It kind of sounds like you're calling me a pussy, though. That's a little odd.

"A direct fucking attack on the Pentagon brought no discernible change to military attitudes."

Man, you really don't have any insight into military culture at all. Zero. You're really talking out of your ass here. I wish I could come up with stronger words than "profound ignorance", but it's late.

"Riiiiight.... Personal responsibility is not a factor. It's all a machine, and you're just doing what you have to do."

Personal responsibility becomes a factor when we're given an unlawful order. When the order is lawful, we go. Again, you're ignorance on military matters is really glaring.

"THE BUREAUCRATS ARE THE MILITARY!!! That's the most distinguishing characteristic!"

No. You're just as wrong here as you have been on every military related statement you've made. You're reading too much Beatle Baily and Doonesbury.

We all think commenter BOTU is screwy... There's really no dissent on this point. But it's attitudes like yours which show us how a presumably sane Kentuckian might become so deranged.

It's not enough that our military has such bloated costs, even as soldiers are said to be ill-equipped and poorly lead. You have to blame Congress, and pretend that the services themselves are somehow absent during procurement. And then, with sputtering machismo, you say we can't do it without you, that we got nowhere else to go.

And finally, in a context like this, you'll affirm that you expect to be admired for your brains, too.

Radwaste likes to do that as well. He'll pretend to be blessed with arcane scientific brilliance. Through a fog of illiterate ramblings, he'll say his industry has everything under control, no matter how obviously this is not the case. Then he asserts that we have no options. And finally, despite the naked self-interest of his position, he asserts that anyone who questions the purity of his heart is an idiot.


—


I like to think of the PATCO strike, and how the air traffic controllers thought they had us by the balls... How they had special skills that couldn't be duplicated... How Americans would have to pay any price for their precious talent.

And how Ronald Reagan, the former union president, told them to go fuck themselves.

Time for a summary?

I think Amy and her commenters are wrong on this one... At least in a big-picture kinda of way. It's wrong to say "the Navy" is goofed up in its sexual politics just because of a silly wall poster like this.

But apparently the military can't take even glancing blow in a discussion like this, where its clumsiness is presented in a full color graphic.

How they had special skills that couldn't be duplicated... How Americans would have to pay any price for their precious talent.

And how Ronald Reagan, the former union president, told them to go fuck themselves

Yep, and now they work longer hours for less money and every few months we hear another report about them falling asleep at the console

Oh, please. 30 years later, and their salaries are as inflated as they might have been anyway.

Anything but take the point, right, Looj? As if airframes came raining out of the skies 30 years ago.

"9-fucking-11 didn't change the idiocy of procurement."

That doesn't follow. 9/11 was a breakdown (some would say sabotage) of the intel system. Procurement had nothing to do with it.

"But apparently the military can't take even glancing blow in a discussion like this, where its clumsiness is presented in a full color graphic."

I don't think there's anything unique to the military here. The HR mindset has invaded the legal departments of every single organization in the U.S. I worked in a building full of engineers where they were still legally required to post big posters reminding everyone of the minimum wage laws, even though every single person in the building, including the janitor, was making far above minimum wage.

What is it with you and the undermining? What is that? It's been going on here, just on this blog, for years. Does your family talk to you about it? Your boss? Your friends?

> 9/11 was a breakdown (some would say sabotage)
> of the intel system. Procurement had
> nothing to do with it.

Did you read me to say that 9/11 was caused by procurement failure? How?

I meant to suggest that having been struck with tremendous, bloody violence in their own carpeted offices, the technocrats within our fucking military might have come to recognize that the system wasn't actually built so that they might fatten their wallets in the later stages of their careers... We might have hoped they'd come to understand that America has genuine enemies who deliver actual killing, and whose efforts need to be answered with well-built and properly-financed hardware.

There's no indication that any such insight has come to these technocrats.

> I don't think there's anything unique
> to the military here.

Did anyone say that this failure of integrity was unique to the military? Would it matter if it were?

Crid, you're full of shit.

Pretty writing and bold type aside.

And if you weren't, you'd refute what I say, instead of counting on style.

And do note that you didn't answer my question - you just dodged.

That's because you can't be honest. What I do is in no way "arcane". You could just look this stuff up, but you don't know how to start.

Funny how you don't get it, but others do. You should study. I recommend Nuclides and Isotopes by GE Nuclear Energy. I think it's at about 730.6 at your library. It'll help you get over being mad that you simply don't have the experience to comment on the subject except as a victim, as so designated by the media you've perused to this point.

-----

Example: "As if airframes came raining out of the skies 30 years ago."

Can you name the peak years for airline terrorism? Patrick Smith has, and you could look it up at JACDEC.de. Did you?

Or are you going to whine about that too?

You're not an idiot because you imagine "purity of his heart". You're an idiot because you can't recognize when somebody posts with references that mean something.

Crid, in one way you are worse than buttfuck as you are obviously intelligent but equally misguided. This diatribe has proven that you ate nothing more than an arrogant prick.

> Can you name the peak years for
> airline terrorism?

I wasn't bitching at you over that. I was bitching at you over other things... The boundless, boundless sense of entitlement. Money and job security in a howling recession aren't enough. Government employees also demand prestige and adoration... (To wit.) Blechhhhhhh.

> This diatribe has proven that you ate
> nothing more than an arrogant prick.

No, I ate a half-ciabbata/half-salad, and it wasn't even pushy.

"No, I ate a half-ciabbata/half-salad, and it wasn't even pushy."

Ooo, so many ways you could have gone with that.
Nice choice.

Sometimes we do out best work when pushed into a corner.

Hey! Look at all the stupid people!

They're bright enough the rape the nation they're sworn to serve...

OK, MAYBE that was a little harsh. But sending pictures of boys playing with expensive, shiny new toys shows exactly the insanity I'm talking about. You have no idea what impact you're having.

New rule: See Amy's first blog post on Saturday.

Whoops, I meant Friday. Sorry about:

PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS SOMETIMES MAKE SACRIFICES IN THE LAYOUT OF THE WORK-WEEK

@Crid - The "illiterate, violent hillbillies" and "gangbangers" don't make it through the application process. I was the Operations Officer for a USMC Recruiting Station during 2005-2008, so I can speak with experience on the subject. Without going into gnat's-ass detail, I can confidently state that the "illiterate" and the "violent" are disqualified mostly by lack of education, poor ASVAB* scores, or extensive legal problems. The USMC has more stringent quality requirements in some areas than the other services, but I imagine that the requirements are mostly uniform (no pun intended) across the board. I'd like to address your other points about procurement and efficiency, but that would be very far off-post.

Bottom line - I think the "higher-ups" knew that the poster was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, but did not want to be seen as treating the issue of sexual assault with any sort of levity. Sexual assault is a high-profile issue and the mentality seems to be "CYA." Because no commander, at any level, wants to be perceived as down-playing the issue (especially when media/outside agencies get involved) some of the prevention efforts tend towards overkill. At my last duty station, I had an excellent Marine who was accused of sexual assault by another Marine. Even though the alleged victim's statements were deemed not to be credible by the NCIS agents investigating the case, the alleged assailant was still subjected to an Article 32 hearing (military equivalent of a grand jury.) Although the hearing did not find reason to take the case to trial, my Marine was still subject to a lot of worry and stress that he did not deserve. All of this was most likely done to show that every case is taken "seriously" so that no agency from the outside can protest otherwise.

I'm not saying that sexual assault isn't a serious issue that doesn't deserve attention. I do think the current mentality can create a climate that sometimes lacks common sense.

*ASVAB - military mental aptitude test

"But sending pictures of boys playing with expensive, shiny new toys shows exactly the insanity I'm talking about. You have no idea what impact you're having."

Crid said this about a service branch with the bulk of nuclear weapons deployed, from the safety of his home.

What more do you need to know about him?