We Can't Cure Islam
Smart blog item by Daniel Greenfield at Sultan Knish on the futility -- and damage to us and our society -- of our attempts to save Muslims from themselves:
After September 11 the reasonable thing to do would have been to take steps to save ourselves from Islamic terror, instead we went on a crusade to save Muslims from themselves. The latest stop on that crusade is Syria, where the foreign policy experts responsible for decades of horrifying misjudgements tell us that we are duty bound to save the Syrian people from their dictator.Rarely do we ask why it is that Muslims so often need saving from their dictators. Or why a party that campaigned on improving America's reputation by promising not to bomb Muslims anymore, is now improving America's reputation by bombing so many Muslims and so often that it makes George W. Bush look like a tie dyed hippie.
The Obama Administration has had a role in regime change in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya all in one year. Along with the other "Friends of Syria" it would like to bomb its way to regime change in Syria. The point of all this regime change is to replace totalitarian Muslim regimes with democratically elected totalitarian Muslim regimes on the theory that will make everyone happier.
...Muslims look to Islam as a central unifying principle of universal allegiance, but it's nothing of the sort. It's actually an excuse for constant internecine violence.
...It has been amply demonstrated to us that we cannot save Muslims from themselves, we cannot drag them a thousand years ahead in time just because they use cell phones and have prime ministers. Externally imposing progress does not work. Especially across cultures which have to make their own adaptations and their own journey upwards.
The misbegotten crusade to save Muslims from themselves, to act as missionaries of democracy has cost us more lives than September 11 and to no purpose. There was something noble about the belief that we could march our troops in, liberate a people from their tyrant and their spirits would open up and a new world would be born. That belief however was rooted in a secularized religious ideal that was layered over with American exceptionalism. But the whole point of exceptionalism is that it is not universal. America is not the inevitable outcome, it is a series of accommodations and experiments that derive from a particular set of histories. It cannot be generalized or universally applied.
We cannot save Muslims from themselves, we can however save ourselves from their turmoil, their religiously influenced violence and their cultural instability. The more we try to reach out to them, the more we are at risk of importing their violence and instability.
The job of governments is not to sell our way of life to others, it is to protect that way of life from others. It is about time that we stopped being the world's benefactor, psychiatrist and policeman, and began looking after our own interests first. That doesn't mean isolationism, it doesn't rule our friendships with other countries, but those friendships should be in our interest.
More by Greenfield on the nature of Islam here -- in his blog item "Islam Uber Alles":
The organizing force of Islam can be seen in urban gangs which react in much the same way to being 'disrespected'. When your religion is little more than an entitlement to be a thug, to elevate your way of life over that of everyone else, violent outrage over even the most minute sign of disrespect is to be expected. And when your beliefs are little more than an excuse to hate, rioting over a slight is the sacrament of your faith.Islam did not expand through the persuasiveness of its illiterate child abusing founder, at least not beyond the initial persuasion that allowed him to gather bandit troops to raid, murder and enslave the multicultural peoples of the desert until there was nothing left but Muslims and their slaves. It expanded by force and it has gone on expanding by force. Faced with advanced civilizations, it has reacted with the violent petulant fury that is its spiritual heritage.
The first law is the only true law of Islam. That is the law being practiced by the Afghan rioters and murderers outraged over the burnings of already defaced Korans, as their counterparts have gone on similar rampages over cartoons of Mohammed, the Satanic Verses, Facebook postings and anything else which triggered their rage. This violence has the same goal of all Islamic terror, to maintain the privileged status of Muslims and enforce the submission of non-Muslims.
There is nothing that serves the first law so well as opponents who compromise or offer gestures of appeasement.
...We have become a nation of psychiatrists rushing from international ward to ward trying to calm the lunatics before they go on a killing spree and then again after they have already gone on a killing spree. As a civilization we live in constant fear of a religion that our leaders constantly assure us is wholly peaceful. But if that were truly so, why do we have so much security in airports, why do we grovel so much before Muslim clerics and why do we have so many troops in Muslim countries?
No, no no do not get involved with Syria! Let them work their own problems out. Also, why would we want to replace the Syrian government? We don't have conflicts with them. The odds are low that they'd replace their govt with one we'd like better. The tendency tends to be to replace them with more radical muslim govts, not less radical ones.
Sheesh, imagine if the Ottoman empire had gotten involved in our witch-hunts back in the day. We had our own bloody conflicts, and they were horrible times to live in, and we were insane back then, but the crazy puritans begat the founders of modern democracy.
They have their own cycles of insanity to go through, and if we try to impose our way of life, as foreigners, they will naturally resist.
NicoleK at February 29, 2012 11:41 PM
Listen... Seekers... Religion is a problem in these places, but it's not THE problem.
And even if it were, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it. When someone decides to believe in God, you probably aren't going to talk them out of it. It doesn't matter whether they're in Mogadishu or Minneapolis.
AND THE PROBLEM IS YOU, NOT THEM. Your life is just not such a compelling example of how human excellence works... It just ain't.
And for the whole of my life, we've heard that the United States is the most religious nation on Earth... And I think it's true. But no matter what you believe about supernatural beings, even if you don't believe in any of them, the United States is the best place to live and practice your beliefs. See how that works? You have nothing to fear from religious types in America.
(Those of you who are tempted to make lefty jokes about Robertson or Santorum aren't doing the math. If you're seriously concerned that Santorum will seek to cripple your sexuality in some way, then your problem is with the authority of your government, not with some idiot lawyer from Pennsylvania. You shouldn't trust Obama with it either, and you're a fool if you do.)
The problem in these nations isn't their faith, it's their disconnectedness, economic and otherwise.
> They have their own cycles of insanity
> to go through.
No, they're going to go through the same insanity we faced here in the United States. Robber barons, moonshiners, Godly fanatics, resource conflicts, and rail (transport) tycoons... There's nothing special about going through this in 21st-century Africa as opposed to 19th-century Arizona (or whatever Arizona was called in the 19th century). Of everyone who ever lived, we in America should know best that these hazards aren't exotic or insoluble...
...And people who do talk about them that way quickly start to sound racist.
But whatever the issue is, we in the United States probably got through it first....And almost always got through it best, even when we were slow on the uptake. One nation in this hemisphere extinguished slavery before the USA did: Haiti. We shouldn't envy them too much.
Other nations may have gone through similar stages of history more recently than we have, and might better see practical considerations for bringing some of the backwards Islamic cultures onto the grid, bypassing some of our intermediate foolishness. Lord knows the rest of the world should be helping us out with these projects.
But the modernity of the United States speaks most warmly to the aspirations of the human heart across the world. People who say it doesn't are bullshitting... They're selling something, if only fear. Who's afraid of "natural resistance"?
There's nothing new under the sun... There's nothing new under the sun. Specifically, there's nothing new under the sun.
Spend an hour with this man. He does books, too, very readable ones.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 1:08 AM
In other words... We didn't "cure" Christianity, either.
But who gives a fuck?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 1:46 AM
"it's their disconnectedness, economic and otherwise"
Please, every economically poor country does not indulge in terrorism. It is only the islamic ones which do and even on non muslim countries, it is the muslims that cause all the problems even though there are economically backward people of other religions like Hindu, Sikh, Buddhism, Jainism, Bahai, etc etc. Denying the fact that the problem is with the religion is being oblivious to the facts. Even in usa, you will find a lot of poor people who are christians, Hindu, Sikh etc etc, but none of them cause the trouble that muslims cause. And nobody ever heard of any religious issues involving people of two religions both of which are not islam. One side is always islam in any religious issue between two groups. It is the muslim way to challenge what is dominant and try to prove that islam is supreme
Redrajesh at March 1, 2012 3:05 AM
None of us are causing the problems that Islam caused -now-, but there have been insane periods in Western history as well. We've had our share of genocides, mass hysteria, lawlessness, etc. So has Africa, Asia... pretty much every culture that's ruled or dominated any geographic location anywhere has had its loony moments.
The point is, these cycles don't get resolved by outside forces. Outside forces should not try to "fix" these countries.
Jains and Hindus have higher rates of female infanticide and abortion than Muslims, btw, so they aren't saints either.
NicoleK at March 1, 2012 3:25 AM
"Jains and Hindus have higher rates of female infanticide and abortion than Muslims, btw, so they aren't saints either"
When was female infanticide and abortion the point of contention? If lack of abortion is the indicator of civilization, then the west is probably the most uncivilized place on earth. The point was terrorism and freedom for minorities. The fact is Muslims enjoy whether they are the majority or the minority because they do not like those things done to them which they do to others.
Redrajesh at March 1, 2012 3:48 AM
"We've had our share of genocides, mass hysteria, lawlessness, etc. So has Africa, Asia... pretty much every culture that's ruled or dominated any geographic location anywhere has had its loony moments."
The point is globalization and WW2 ensured that the positive changes of the world have spread across the world. You no longer have all the loony stuff that happened across the world on a normal basis anywhere in the world. The only exception to this has been Islam.(or the only prominent exception). Everywhere, people no longer are dominated by religious leaders whose words are the gospel to never be challenged and accepted without question. The only exception is Islam. Post WW2, every community has moved on in the world with a different thinking which conforms to todays world, but islam has shown a stubborn refusal to move ahead and still sticks to the loony stuff of the medieval ages and this is something endorsed by the leaders of islam while no other leader openly endorses that as the ideal and people are able to get out of that thinking if they are of any other religion.
Redrajesh at March 1, 2012 4:01 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3015452">comment from RedrajeshJust heard Sen. Claire McCaskill on CNN saying we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars building roads in Afghanistan -- roads they blow up right after we build them -- and that money should be going into roads in this country. Yes, it should.
Amy Alkon
at March 1, 2012 7:18 AM
The misbegotten crusade to save Muslims from themselves, to act as missionaries of democracy has cost us more lives than September 11 and to no purpose
I wouldn't say to "no purpose". We've killed an awful lot of al Qaeda and other wanna be jihadists. And we killed them there, not here.
Because here, we couldn't kill them, just arrest them and read them their Miranda rights and try them as criminals, not illegal combatants. And provide them with legal defense, and put them in our prisons where they could further spread their religious zeal.
I R A Darth Aggie at March 1, 2012 9:25 AM
Red, you're forgetting Rwanda (not a religious conflict, though now many people who lived through it are converting because they were sheltered by Muslims). And the Witch Children of Ghana (largely a Christian fundamentalist mission problem). And others.
NicoleK at March 1, 2012 9:35 AM
I don't know if you can "bypass" that intermediate foolishness.
Lenin and Stalin tried to force modernity in Russia and instead institutionalized a brutal industrialization. Now the country is awash in cronyism and oligarchy.
Mao tried to get around it in China and the Chinese paid a pretty high price. The new leaders of China are still trying to direct it from afar, but at least seem to understand that you can't get a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant.
We can't force it on Arab states barely one generation removed from nomadic desert wandering.
The middle stage development of a industrializing society and birth of its middle class cannot be imposed. It must be organic to a society. And each society must claw its way through on its own terms. And some will fail to do so without blood.
We can help the latecomers out, but we can't do the heavy lifting.
We've got our own heavy lifting to do in transitioning to the post-industrializing socio-economic stage ... as soon as we figure out what it is ... and what the price of getting there is.
==============================
There were some folks at Harrod's on December 17, 1983 who might take issue with the "only Islamic" part of that statement.
The difference, of course, is that the IRA had a limited target and scope. The IRA wasn't trying to convert the world to Catholicism through the bomb. But a dead non-combatant civilian is still a dead non-combatant civilian.
Conan the Grammarian at March 1, 2012 10:13 AM
> Please, every economically poor country does
> not indulge in terrorism.
Well, feller, that's why I said "disconnectedness." See the comment at 1:08am... The one you quoted.
I got cites, Pilgrim.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 11:39 AM
> The point is, these cycles don't get
> resolved by outside forces.
Oh, THE FUCK they don't.
For Christ's sake, why would you say something like that? I'm entirely serious... How did that sequence of words form in your mind?
From the study of what series of events in history have you come to this conclusion? Give details, give us highlights... Give us anything. Where the fuck did THAT come from?
...'Cause I'll tell you what I think it is. I think it's fear. And laziness. This is going to happen, and it needs to happen, and we need to guide them to it... You just don't want to be bothered. You're sittin' pretty on a higher bough of modernity, and you want someone to pull up the rope ladder, so you can privately enjoy your fruit in the breezy canopy.
Ain't gonna happen.
Globalization isn't about oppression or coercion or empire. Globalization is about one, maybe two billion people yearning for the opportunities and fulfillment you've enjoyed (with apparently feeble gratitude).
They're not going to be charmed by your (baseless) insistence that they're not up for challenge.
Maybe they'll remember that you felt that way about them.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 11:52 AM
> btw, so they aren't saints either.
If you think good things can only happen to "saints"....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 11:53 AM
I'm ten years older than Andrew Breitbart. I hadn't realized how much I was looking forward to the rest of his career.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 11:54 AM
> that money should be going into roads in this
> country. Yes, it should.
I dare you to tell us (without Googling) what percentage of the US budget is spent on foreign aid.
We've turned our backs on Afghanistan before. It didn't work out. You may have read something about this.
Our presence is constabulary. Pain in the ass, but that's how civilization works.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 11:58 AM
> Lenin and Stalin tried to force modernity in
> Russia and instead institutionalized a brutal
> industrialization
Well, which was it? Events in the Soviet Union were not accidental.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 12:00 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3015891">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Crid, regarding Andrew, it's very sad. I haven't felt up to blogging about it -- just been emailing with friends. He and I disagreed on a number of issues, but we'd have some heated debate at a dinner and then it would be time to go and he'd get up and hug me goodbye. I would have seen him tomorrow night at a dinner I go to regularly. He has a very sweet wife, Susie, and four young children. Had.
Amy Alkon
at March 1, 2012 12:01 PM
That's some pretty hateful stuff that Greenfield is putting out, he ought to have that looked at and possibly lanced, carrying around that much toxic pus might be dangerous.
If anyone ever wrote a hit piece like that about Christians or Jews, they would be summarily drummed out of society. Note also, that noone is bombing Greenfield... I have eveery confidence that noone will try to.
dervish at March 1, 2012 12:06 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3015951">comment from dervishHateful? Feel free to lay out the parts that aren't true.
I wanted to believe that Islam was just a different flavor of religion to Judaism and Christianity. I find all god belief ridiculous, as there's no evidence there's a god. But, we are not bending over and being groped at airports because Judaism commands Jews to murder for Moses.
If that becomes the case, there should be a "hit piece" on whomever is calling for the violent death or conversion of those who don't share their beliefs. I urge you to read the Quran, the Hadith, and also the information about Islam posted here:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm
And then tell us that Islam is not a source of evil in the world.
This is not to say every Muslim is a source of evil. But, look at Muslim countries and see how gays fare there (put to death is how), how women are treated, and how incompatible the religion (really a totalitarian system masquerading as a religion) is with a democratic and peaceful way of life (which, in my book, includes a live and let live -- not a "Murder for Allah!" one).
Want to see how others of different religions fare under Islam? Look up the fate of Coptic Christians in Egypt.
This guy speaks the truth. It's not a pretty truth, but I challenge you to lay out one thing he gets wrong. And to do that, you need the facts at your disposal, so post links supporting your points, one per comment. Your emotionally driven feeling that this sounds awful isn't enough.
Amy Alkon
at March 1, 2012 12:51 PM
> If anyone ever wrote a hit piece like that
> about Christians or Jews, they would be
> summarily drummed out of society.
Of course they wouldn't. Happens all the time.
But note the deft bid for rhetorical wiggle space!: "drummed out of society", rather than 'imprisoned without a hearing' or 'beaten with a fifty-link chain' or 'set to drift to Cuba on a leaky air mattress during a hurricane'.
It's kind of letdown, after the jackbooted thuggery and starchamber slamdown of "summarily", to see that all he really means is that you might never get invited to a white wine party hosted by Arianna or something.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 1:10 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3016418">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]all he really means is that you might never get invited to a white wine party hosted by Arianna or something.
Never cared enough about being invited to suck up to her in suggested way. Don't care now.
PS Irritatingly, I pitched her my op-ed about TSA and civil liberties -- directly, because I have her email address -- and she never bothered to respond with so much as a "not for us, thanks." Had to hear from Kaus at a party that she'd passed.
Amy Alkon
at March 1, 2012 4:33 PM
I knew you were going to make me wish I'd offered a different example.
I just don't know any LA socialites. Trying to feel bad about it; Cain't.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 6:22 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3016689">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]I just don't know any LA socialites.
I aggressively try not to know them. My crowd is the crowd of mutts. It's one of the things I loved about Cathy Seipp. I've never been an Approved Friend or One Of The Cool People, and that was just fine and maybe better by her. A woman who can be friends with Luke Ford is a woman who doesn't give a crap what anybody thinks about her and just likes interesting (and deeply strange) people. And I mean that in a nice way, although I wish Luke would shave the damn critter-haven beard if he hasn't already.
Amy Alkon
at March 1, 2012 6:48 PM
It would be one thing if people were just wrong. People are wrong about stuff all the time. But I don't understand why people toss off these fortune-cookie aphorisms, without supporting examples or reasoning, as if the forces were as obvious as gravity. I don't understand why people are GLIB about this:
> I don't know if you can "bypass" that
> intermediate foolishness.
Even though I said "some" of the foolishness, there's this eagerness to throw in the towel before we even get to the ring...
As if the bout were elective. It's not. We're in a fight with primitiveness. It will find us even if we pretend it's not there.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2012 11:12 PM
Amy, wasn't it you that showed 2 pictures of the Egyptian University graduates, one was recent and one from the 80s? And the recent one had hajibed women, and the older one had women in modern styles?
What do you think the change is due to?
NicoleK at March 2, 2012 6:31 AM
Crid, when we had our revolution we went to the French and begged them to help us. Do you think things would have been the same if we hadn't asked for their help, and they had decided to swoop in and "save" us from the British, and taken charge of our leader-choosing process?
With good intentions we went in to missionize Africa and set up Liberia...
NicoleK at March 2, 2012 6:34 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3018076">comment from NicoleKRe, the change to hijabbed, Egypt used to be modern, Nicole. Islam is taking over.
Amy Alkon
at March 2, 2012 6:38 AM
"What do you think the change is due to?"
I think you'll find this link (about a meeting between Gamal Nasser & the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1953)interesting, and it will help to answer your question, Nicole:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/12/raymond-ibrahim-lessons-on-the-long-road-to-hijab.html
Because Nasser, Sadat, & Mubarak were all secular military dictators, it's easy for Islamists to blame everything that's gone wrong in Egypr - the humiliating defeats by Israel, the poverty (15 million Egyptians live on less than $ 1 a day), the corruption & cronyism - on secularism, and to claim that Islam Is The Answer to all these problems. Parliamentary elections just gave more than 3/4 of the seats to Islamists, so obviously an awful lot of ordinary Egyptians agree. And the most obvious symbol of an Islamic state is a woman in a bodybag.
Martin at March 2, 2012 9:45 AM
> when we had our revolution....
You seem to be retreating from the (weakly stated) contention that cultures have to improve completely on their own. I mean, you're conceding that you really just don't want to get your hands dirty, amirite?
> would have been the same if we hadn't asked
> for their help
Dunno. The American cause would have been nonetheless righteous.
The world is full nations that've been made wealthy, safe, and decent due to American intervention. It often ain't pretty.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 2, 2012 10:05 AM
The first step in learning to deal with Islam is to stop pretending it is a religion. It is a totalitarian ideology. We have start calling what it is. As long as we call it a religion our American sensibility of respecting freedom of religion impairs our ability to recognize its true nature.
Bill O Right at March 2, 2012 10:16 AM
Put another way: Nicole, can you name a single place where "these cycles" weren't "resolved by outside forces"?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 2, 2012 10:50 AM
Anybody catch this news article? I'm utterly amazed that it didn't make headline news.
http://news.yahoo.com/penn-judge-muslims-allowed-attack-people-insulting-mohammad-210000330.html
prawn toe at March 2, 2012 12:16 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/03/we-cant-cure-is.html#comment-3018910">comment from prawn toeAlready blogged it. You should read here more often:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/02/23/atheist_gets_tr.html
Amy Alkon
at March 2, 2012 1:05 PM
Put another way: Nicole, can you name a single place where "these cycles" weren't "resolved by outside forces"?
Better idea crid, instead of demanding others do your work how about you do your own for a change?
Tell us which outside forces brought about the reformation in chritianiny.
Which outside forces put an end to the Salem witch trials, or the Inquisition
Whos about for once in your miserable life you dont expect everyone else to prove you wrong and try to prove yourself right?
Or is that to fucking hard for you?
lujlp at March 2, 2012 2:59 PM
Connectedness solved those problems; That's the point. These weren't fully insular cultures. You extrapolated from my description of the problem ("it's their disconnectedness, economic and otherwise") to something preposterous, maybe 'No local incident can ever be resolved without outside intervention.' Which isn't what I said.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 2, 2012 4:11 PM
There are multitudes crying that Christians have committed {insert heinous crime here}, and that they're just like Muslims because of that.
Nope.
Aside from an ocean keeping sandaled feet from soiling us all that often, British Protestants are responsible for what we are.
Not French Catholics. We're not Quebec.
Not Spanish Catholics. We're not Mexico.
Not Portuguese Catholics. We're not Brazil.
Those stuffy Brits, aside from whatever selfish interests they might have had in escaping the overreaching hand of a Church, still brought with them the idea of sacrifice for the greater good - said "greater good" being the prosperity of another person, a community, state or nation, not the chanting of an imam praising the child molester.
If you are prone to excuse this or that religious nuttery, ask yourself what would have happened if that nuttery was allowed to drive colonial America.
Radwaste at March 2, 2012 6:48 PM
> brought with them the idea of sacrifice
> for the greater good
Time to cite, for perhaps the fifth time here, one of my all-time favorite blog posts:
Hey Nic: "These cycles" aren't that scary.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 2, 2012 7:59 PM
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