"How do you bridge the gap between Pigpen and the girl who cares about him but is a little uncomfortable tiptoeing around the biohazards?"

Cleaning service. Any bachelor who hates housework, and has a decent job, can afford one. There really is no excuse.

The girlfriend: if the guy's household in its current state is a deal-breaker for her, then she ought to say so. Diplomatically, yes, but two months is likely far enough in to be able to talk about such things. If he can't see the problem, better to end the relationship sooner than later.

Show her the woman who is a complete mess while her bf/husband is totally frustrated at being unable to change her and puts up with the pigpen that she creates

"I think a smart guy realizes that he can fork over $75 a month"

I'd like to know where you can get a cleaning person for $75 a month! Here on Long Island, in NY, you can't get a cleaning girl for under $100. I lived in a small apartment a few years ago, literally two tiny bedrooms, a tiny living room, a tiny bath, and a teensy kitchen. It was like the little people apartment. Even the illegals were coming giving me quotes of $125 and up.

I have two sons, one is a slob and one is neat. I have told the slob that he is going to have trouble holding onto a quality women if he lives like that. Its nice to build up to "you're a nice guy," but who wants to get a tetanus shot to visit?

I have looked at getting a maid service a couple of different times though it has been quite awhile. In all cases if it is through a service it has been a lot more than $75/month. Even the an "old Mexican lady" that was recommended by a neighbor charged $20/hr.

I have never paid $75/month for online dating...I just looked and eHarmony on a Month-to-Month is $59.95.

I think you have to look at the situation. Is this cleaning work something she would be willing to do if they were married/living together or pay for a maid to do? If not, then I think she has to walk away - it just isn't going to walk away.

At one point my house was totally trashed. I knew it, and wouldn't let my girlfriend visit. I was working at it slowly. She finally insisted on coming to my place. We spent a weekend and a few evenings cleaning it up.

The time I was with her I generally kept it up. We still ended up spending time at her place more often.

I'm back to totally trashed again. I need to get it cleaned up again.

My cleaning woman gets $12.50 an hour plus a tip, and she works completely under the table.

For a long term relationship, if you don't agree on minimum standards of cleanliness\clutter, it will be a source of resentment not down far the road.

I'd be totally accepting of her pitching in and "showing" me how to clean house. No need to buy a cow or a maid!

"(I would advise her to build you up -- tell you what an amazing guy you are but also let you know that...well...she feels a little uncomfortable.)"

Do single men now-a-days need a self-esteem booster before dumping the passive-aggressive manipulation?

His place is a dump, tell him to clean it up if he expects to ever see sweet morning dew again.

Sometimes it is difficult to see the value in something until after you have tried it out. This is why companies will often offer coupons for free services or products in order to bring in new customers.

Why doesn't the girlfriend offer to pay one time for a cleaning service as a present so that he can see if he likes it.

If the place really is as messy as described it is possible he will really like the change and be more open to hiring the cleaning service himself in the future.

The same way a guy would broach the subject that the gf has put on extra weight. So for all those who say tell him to get a maid. Think how you would react if he told you to get lipo or a gym membership, and if she doesn't kick her out.
However, offering to work on it together. Either by exercising together or cleaning together it comes off much more diplomatically.

Seinfeld covered this-cleaning the tub=love.

I didn't tiptoe or build DH up-I just told him his place was gross and if he wanted me there, he was cleaning it. Worked well, the sex was new and hot enough then.

Your company (and yeah, a girlfriend is company at your place till she moves in) should not have to pay for a cleaning service for your place just so they don't feel disgusted when they come over. Nor should you expect your company to clean for you. That's YOUR job, esp if you're getting laid by your company. This seems like common sense 101.

This was my solution for not having cluttervision: Get out the digital camera and take a picture. For whatever reason it's a lot easier for me to look at a picture of my kitchen and see how badly my stovetop needs a scrubbing than it is to walk into my kitchen and see my stove needs a scrubbing.

"My cleaning woman gets $12.50 an hour plus a tip, and she works completely under the table."

She sounds like she is illegal, and you are keeping jobs from legal workers.

Or she is a tax evader which means my taxes are higher.

You do not sound as though you are providing for her social security, leaving her eventual retirement costs up to me.

Thanks a lot jackass.

It is absolutely not her job and a bad idea to play mommy/maid and do it for him or with him.

She will get stuck in that role.

He needs to get it clean for her, not by her.

I think this is close, but wrong.

He needs to clean it for himself. And he probably is.

Amy, it sounds like you have her side of the story. I have no idea how the guy's place actually looks or where it falls in the spectrum of normally acceptable places.

If he thinks its fine, and she doesn't believe so, she can:

a) clean it to her satisfaction, no nagging needed
b) leave him, and she can find someone else too, no nagging needed
c) help him clean it, no nagging needed

Assuming that his place is within some acceptable range of normality, then of course she should not take on that role, and of course it is absolutely her job to do so if she really cares that much about it.

/bitter this morning

Jerry, a man who says "love my filth or clean it yourself" is going to be alone and sexless. Fine, if not cleaning is the hill you want to die on, but it wouldn't be mine.

"Jerry, a man who says "love my filth or clean it yourself" is going to be alone and sexless. Fine, if not cleaning is the hill you want to die on, but it wouldn't be mine."

I pay for a maid.

But regardless, I'm mainly just taking exception at Amy's writing,

"He needs to get it clean for her, not by her."

Something about that strikes me as wrong and bad for the relationship.

I know I'm supposed to dislike slippery slope arguments but

"Jerry, a man who says "love my filth or clean it yourself" is going to be alone and sexless. Fine, if not cleaning is the hill you want to die on, but it wouldn't be mine."

Where does this sort of sexual or relationship blackmail end?

I guess I would say up until she moves in, or is considering it, it really isn't her place to complain or demand. To help with the mess, you bet. To consider what the mess means about the future of the relationship, sure.

It's mainly her problem. If the guy is important to her then she should volunteer to help with the cleanup, and then offer dinner and sex for the reward.

seems like a lot of people are making the assumption that he's got the problem here... having dated women who were compleat neat freaks to utter slobovians, there is a whole range of what people feel is normal.

Is the question: "How do I impose my idea of what clean is, on another person?"

First, I'm thinkin 2 months is too early for such a talk.
Second, she can base things out of her apt. Third, when the conversation is right, she could suggest that she is woriied about the leaning tower of papers, or being bitten by the thing that lives in the sink, with amused humor...

If she's gonna do: 'her way or the highway' now, she might as well MOA because they just aren't compatible.

And ALL who are suggesting a maid service, are suggesting that. You are assuming that her POV is the correct one, and that his isn't, even though we have no idea what his place is like.

Let's face the idea that the bigger neatfreak/carfreak/computerfreak/towel folding freak in a realtionship is going to have to do their own freakiness to feel comfortable, and this isn't because the other person is WRONG, but because they are the ones who get antsy when the towels aren't folded "right". There is all the difference btw "can you do it this way?" and "you are doing it all wrong."

There's a lot of room for compromise if you don't first make the assumption that the only correct POV is yours.

momof4's "my way or the highway" stance seems like a recipe for disaster in an otherwise happy relationship.

Of course no one should "have" to pay for a cleaning service for your place. Neither should someone "have" to clean their own living space to someone elses specifications if they are content with it.

Now that we've gotten those "have" to behaviors out of the way it would be nice to recognize that in a happy and mature relationships there are thousands of things we do not "have" to do, but choose to do in order to make things work that much better.

If all two people did in relationships was the stuff they absolutely had to do I would classify that as a relationship that wasn't worth having.

I love when my SO does things because they think it will help me, or just because they care. Similarly I look fr opportunities to help them when I can.

If they end up knocking a glass over during dinner I don't just sit there and explain to them that they made the mess and they should clean it up themselves. I get up and help them clean things up.

That is what people who care about one another do. The fact that I shouldn't "have" to help them is immaterial.

Now if they constantly made me feel like I had to fix everything for them and they never reciprocated, that would be a good reason to reevaluate the relationship.

I just don't get why this question is always "The Odd Couple" scenario. One person sterizes like a hospital, the other lives in a landfill.

Does this happen often? Is everyone one extreme or the other?

Why can't one person just be a little bit neater than the other? Why is this even a problem if two people aren't cohabitating?

This has a simple solution: if it's a deal-breaker, then break the deal.

He shouldn't have to adjust his standards to yours. And ultimately, he's not going to. (And another question I have is why is this always presented as a "guy-slob/girl-neatnik" scenario? It doesn't always happen this way in real life, I can tell you that. In fact, I've encountered more female slobs than male slobs in my own experience.

And my mother's cleaning lady comes over twice a month and get's 65 dollars per visit.

Wow. I guess I expect more from grown ups than I'm seeing up above. I would never-repeat NEVER-clean some dudes apartment. Mine? Yep. Ours? You betcha. His? Nah. Not conducive to good sex, acting like someones mom or maid.

Cleaning his place, THEN cooking dinner and screwing him as a "thank you" for being allowed to clean? Jerry's living in a fantasy world. And I'm not saying that as blackmail "clean up or no sex for you" I'm saying it as reality. A slobby man with that sense of entitlement is going to be alone most likely. Just like a chick who doesn't shave will have difficulty finding a man willing to dipilatory her, then cook her dinner and pleasure her in gratitude.

There are certain standards of decency we expect on bodies and homes. You don't get a gold star just for keeping the minimum like a big boy.

"I get up and help them clean things up."

I would too. What I wouldn't do is head into someone's home (friend, family, you name it) and scrub their toilet and unearth their carpet. Nor would I pay for someone to do so.

FWIW, if it were slobby girl and a clean man, I would tell him not to clean her place, either. or to pay for someone else to.

I told my hubby he was going to quit smoking, too, if he wanted to date me. He did. There's nothing wrong with telling people what a dealbreaker for you is. Smoking and nasty bachelor pad were 2 of mine. He had a few too. I've lived up to my bargain.

Yeah, I felt bad about adding that part of the sex after pressing submit, because she's better be a willing and eager partner no matter what.

But seriously, what you're missing is that we have no idea of what the actual state of the place is.

IT IS PROBABLY JUST FINE.

Why would you assume as a basis for the discussion that this adult man's place is anything other than fine?

Either the problem is a short-term temporary one, for instance, one or two rooms are a bit cluttered, or it's a lifestyle change. If it's just a short term small thing, she should help the guy clean it up. People with cluttered rooms or homes are often overwhelmed and don't know where to begin. She can help with that. But she shouldn't be a bitch and throw out his bobblehead collection.

And if it's a lifestyle change she's demanding, she's wrong. Period. End of story. It's not going to work. GTFO. MAO. She should see a therapist and find out why she's so anal and why this is so important to her. Because it's she that has the problem, not the guy.

If this happens repeatedly to the guy, he'll figure it out.

But the woman shouldn't strive to become the mother, and it sounds like she is.

"she's better be a willing and eager partner no matter what."

Thanks for the beer snort all over my keyboard.

You assume the place is just fine and she's some anal retentive controlling witch. I imagine that's not the case, just based on what I've seen in my life, and I've seen a lot of men's places, of all ages. Men seem to be poorly aware of where their piss goes, exactly, as they stand and attempt to hit a pool of water with more fluid from 3 ft up.

But it's interesting to know what a catch you think yourself to be, and what women should be willing to do to keep you (inferred, of course, from your opinion on this).

Oh, and mothers CLEAN. What you want her to do. Trust me, I know, I am one.

Adults clean up after themselves.

Hell to the YES, momof4. Being honest and clear about deal breakers and expectations clears out the riff-raff and leaves you with the men/women that really do have potential to go the distance with you.

I think it's totally fine for the woman in this scenario to politely ask if he wouldn't mind taking 7 minutes to de-clutter before she came over. She doesn't expect total sanitization, I assume. One trash bag, 2 Clorox wipes and 2 songs on the iPod and that's it.

This also reminds me of that old story about the bride who told her husband, "cooking, cleaning, laundry, blowjobs. Pick 3 of the 4, because I won't do 'em all!" they had a maid.

momof4,

There's no evidence that this adult male hasn't had a girlfriend before and won't have girlfriend's again in the future. There's no evidence his place really and truly isn't just fine.

This is just one of those classic male/female divides. Women apparently get upset far earlier than men do at the state of a place's clutter.

But you can't go from there to saying the man, or men, are inherently wrong in this. As Amy might say, stop criminalizing biology. It's his place, and until it's their place, she needs to put up, shut up, or move on.

And yes, at the two month mark, sex is presumably a given and should not be used by one to leverage the other.

Though it would be reasonable for Chickee to tell the guy that due to the clutter she's more comfortable making the beast back at her place.

As long as I'm not being attacked for my lack of cleanliness and it's gently suggested, yeah, a cleaning service would be reasonable. Especially if I like the girl. At least I hope I would respond reasonably. I am frugal, so I would probably offer to do the cleaning on my own first. But I think negotiation after a trial period on my own would be ok.

I will say this, I can be a pigpen when I get lazy. But if I am trying to impress a girl(or even any guests), I try to be prepared, and that includes having a clean apt.

Beware the toe jam junkie lol!

I would consider it really bad manners if someone I'd been dating for two months starting giving me the run down on how they felt I should live my life and to be honest it would be enough to make me want to run to the hills.

At two months I don't even know this person well enough to know whether I really like them. Do they even really like me? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't if I started telling them what to do in their own home.

However if it meant having sex in sheets that smelt like old sweat and god only knows what else, I'm going to be honest and let them know I'm not into dirty sex in the literal sense. I wouldn't consider this nagging its just letting them know where my limitations are and allowing them to know me a bit better. I don't see it as offensive to be honest... I want to have sex with you but I require clean sheets is not an ultimatum, its a request. I want to share dinner with you but I require a clean plate. I want to spend time with you but I need a place to sit. If thats too much to ask after two months perhaps there's a need to reconsider his intentions?

Hard to believe this is even a legit question. I thought that a good woman wouldn't even go for a dude who didn't have at least some standard of cleanliness.

Fuck you Jerry, you douche.

She was born in Connecticut to an old American family. She is married and has an autistic child and works hard, doesn't take a penny from anyone that she doesn't work for.

Maybe you're right Eric.

Still, if she is working more than 2.6 hours per week for you at $12.50, sounds like you need to pay social security, medicare, disability and other taxes.

If you don't pay these it just means you are mooching off the rest of us, and Crid will be all over your ass with his usdebtclock.

http://www.4nannytaxes.com/faq/householdemploymenttaxes.cfm

I have a domestic (aide, elder care giver, housekeeper) working in my home. What taxes do I need to pay?

The following information applies to household workers whom you pay directly. If you contract these services through a third party and make all payments to the third party you are not legally the employer of the caregiver.

In general, the Internal Revenue Service requires payroll tax filings by a domestic employer who pays a household employee directly more than $1800* cash wages in a calendar year. These payroll tax obligations may include: Social Security & Medicare Taxes (7.65% of Gross Wages)** Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) (0.8% of Gross Wages or less in Most Circumstances)
State unemployment and disability insurance taxes levied on the employer.

Amy,

I would say the situation you describe as "there are three years of crud on the bathroom floor and the kitchen is disgusting." is not the situation you opened this column with "You don't notice the mess".

I think there's a huge difference between three years of crud on the bathroom floor and the kitchen is disgusting and you don't notice the mess.

Compare and contrast:

Honey, let's clean the kitchen and the bathroom this morning, and I'll make steaks tonight.

You need to clean your kitchen and your bathroom, I just can't feel comfortable here.

You need to get a maid, I just can't feel comfortable here.

Three years of crud and he doesn't notice it? If he doesn't want to clean it for himself, he's going to resent the time and effort to clean it for her, unless she shows her appreciation, and by appreciation, I don't mean sexual or relationship blackmail.

But it also seems you weren't actually asking this question after all:

"Do you see her as a controlling nag if she lets you know how she feels at the two-month mark?"

Because though many/most of the men here say "yes", you're seem a bit astounded by that and demand the answer is no.

So fine, the answer is no, she's not being a nag.

Amy,

I would say the situation you describe as "there are three years of crud on the bathroom floor and the kitchen is disgusting." is not the situation you opened this column with "You don't notice the mess".

I think there's a huge difference between three years of crud on the bathroom floor and the kitchen is disgusting and you don't notice the mess.

Compare and contrast:

Honey, let's clean the kitchen and the bathroom this morning, and I'll make steaks tonight.

You need to clean your kitchen and your bathroom, I just can't feel comfortable here.

You need to get a maid, I just can't feel comfortable here.

Three years of crud and he doesn't notice it? If he doesn't want to clean it for himself, he's going to resent the time and effort to clean it for her, unless she shows her appreciation, and by appreciation, I don't mean sexual or relationship blackmail.

But it also seems you weren't actually asking this question after all:

"Do you see her as a controlling nag if she lets you know how she feels at the two-month mark?"

Because though many/most of the men here say "yes", you're seem a bit astounded by that and demand the answer is no.

So fine, the answer is no, she's not being a nag.

so Amy, if Gregg didn't find your messes amusing, but rather said, "I find it uncomfortable to come over to your house, because it's a mess..." what would you do? Would it depend a lot on how he phrased his distaste?

And yes, you are precisely telling a man what he has to do, because if he doesn't make you happy, you are out of there, right?

There is no harm or foul in that, but lets not pretend this is not a deal breaker for our LW.

Well, it ain't just an issue of guy or girl, I remember, as a kid, going to visit a friend of my mom's (woman), in whose house you could not go to the bathroom without being attacked by a sentient slime mold (and that was actually the least of the mess in that house).

When a mess can make a twelve year old boy go 'ewww!', you know it's bad.

As an adult, I tend to get a bit of commentary about being a 'neat freak', but that's kind of an aversion. I don't mind clutter, but I can't handle really messy crap. I keep my kitchen and bathroom essentially spotless (anything else triggers a severe 'ick' factor), but my home office can be best described as the aftermath of a bag lady explosion.

Maybe it's a side effect of my ick factor, but I have to sympathize with the LW in this case. If the carpet or floor hasn't been swept in the last few days, I'm not going to even twitch. However, if I need biohazard level 4 protection to take a leak, I'm going to say something, or date someone else who isn't trying to get a head start on a smallpox culture.

>> "Three years of crud and he doesn't notice it? If he doesn't want to clean it for himself, he's going to resent the time and effort to clean it for her, unless she shows her appreciation, and by appreciation, I don't mean sexual or relationship blackmail."

Despite my complete disgust for someone who could even tolerate living like this, let alone someone who thinks that being asked to *not* live like that is some kind of intolerable imposition, that's not the point here.

This advocate of a porcine wallowing ground seems to be complaining that it's a such a horrible request to clean up for someone that he apparently wants to be involved with.

So, he has a choice. Clean up (no matter how attached he is to the slime mold in his bathroom), or date his hand. No one is saying he *must* clean, just that it would be a good idea if we wants his future life to include a woman.

>> "Do you see her as a controlling nag if she lets you know how she feels at the two-month mark?"

No. There's nothing wrong with either party in a forming relationship from outlining what kind of things will or won't work for them.

I can't imagine someone who would choose a filthy house over a relationship, but if that's what he wants, he's free to go with it.

Or, to rephrase your last question:

"Do you see him as oppressed person because she doesn't want to compete for his affection with an emergent life form in the bathroom?"

I think we have had a bit of bait and switch here.

If there is three years of crud on the bathroom floor and he doesn't mind this then he will soon resent having to keep it clean for her soon enough.

I mean, they have TV shows about people like that and the interventions they do.

This is not a Wednesday's dishes are still in the sink on the weekend situation.

She just needs to walk away, this isn't going to work.

$75 a month sounds about right.

3 hours, at $25 an hour, once a month.

You won't have a spotless place, but you'll have a clean place once a month, and a month is short enough that it won't become a biohazard in between.

Eric, anyone paying a maid 12 bucks an hour is in no position to call anyone else a douche.

Going rate is 25, and has been since I graduated college in 1999.

You're exploiting her. Time to give her a raise. I hope you at least give her a good tip at Christmas.

I've used a maid service at my last four residences, and it was always $75-$100 per visit. The apartments were 1,600 square feet with two bathrooms ($75-80). The house is 2,000 square feet with four bathrooms ($100). My mother's house is 2,400 square feet with three bathrooms ($100).

Worth considering: Some maid services will not pick up or even move clutter. A few nicknacks or a stack of magazines, sure. Piles of unsorted laundry or books, maybe not.

$25.00 an hour for maid service? I didn't realize maids command three times the minimum wage. Wow, so being a maid garners you $50,000+ a year now. I guess I am exploiting this woman.

Odds and ends:

I think it's important to remember, when cleaning your own place, that it's not housework that's necessarily depressing or degrading, it's allowing the messes to build up over two days or more and THEN tackling them. If you figure out how much time a daily neatening and cleaning takes (no dishes in the sink, nothing on the floors that shouldn't be, no visible dirt in the kitchen or bathroom, etc) it will be less painful in the long run than goofing off all week and then tackling the messes. After all, you do NOT want to attract vermin of any kind, or have trouble finding some valuable electronic item, or have a messy house when you unexpectedly need to let some important visitor come in - it happens, even if they're "just" the police because your house was broken into and you called 911.

And this reminds me of an interview with Deborah Tannen, maybe from the early 1990s.

(not verbatim)

Q: So if a woman asks her husband to take out the garbage, she thinks "what's the big deal? It'll only take a minute." But to the man, it IS a big deal.

A: I think so. As in "Uh oh, she's getting one up on me. If I jump to, I'm being subordinate."

(In other words, it would help for the woman to be more indirect so the husband can convince himself it was HIS idea to take out the garbage. Which made me wonder, how do two young men sharing a dorm room ever get their room reasonably neat when they can't stand it anymore - but neither wants to be the first to start?)

LW should absolutely positively not lift a finger towards the various life forms the man allows (cultivates?). Never take over the mommy role for your partner. It isn't good for either party. Nor should she pay for, suggest or demand a cleaning service.

She cannot change other people (this bears repeating). She can clearly and politely indicate to him her discomfort, but not demand a change. She can choose to not visit his place. If he is unwilling to make an effort, it says volumes, eh?

Making your house reasonably comfortable for guests is adult behaviour. Not cleaning up after yourself, or expecting the unpaid mom-fairy to magically appear to do your cleaning and laundry is not adult.

I expect my adult partner to act like an adult.

Also, my house is cluttered. I am sure some people would be uncomfortable here. I don't mind it though. I have very little storage. I do a big clean up occasionally and call it good enough. Bathrooms get a thorough weekly cleaning. My son must do his own bathroom and make it "company ready."

I visited a friend and her place was filthy and litter strewn. It totally squicked me out. Her yard has trash and belongings scattered without care. So does the inside of her house. I don't go there anymore. Sorry, trash needs to be put in the bin and taken away, not dropped.

"(In other words, it would help for the woman to be more indirect so the husband can convince himself it was HIS idea to take out the garbage. Which made me wonder, how do two young men sharing a dorm room ever get their room reasonably neat when they can't stand it anymore - but neither wants to be the first to start?)"

Often the campus makes maid service available to all, thus avoiding the problem.

But this is another reminder to me that some of the worst clutterers and hoarders I've met have been women.

"In other words, it would help for the woman to be more indirect so the husband can convince himself it was HIS idea to take out the garbage."

This also strikes me as wrong, clever as women are, much of this is just detected as manipulative.

TRY BEING OPEN AND OFFERING TO HELP.

I am still not sure why that is such an offensive thing for LW and Amy and others to hear.

I can't imagine a situation where I would have company over, never mind a woman I just started dating, where my place would be a mess.

The kitchen and bathroom were always clean and the sheets changed once a week. There might be some clutter and I didn't dust all that often when I was single, but on date night, i would take ½ hour to clean up if i thought we might end up at my place.

My wife has a small cleaning company, but the only time she ever cleaned at my place was when I was moving in with her. She walked through the kitchen that I had already cleaned and didn't see a need to touch anything. We washed walls and floors and were done in an hour.

BTW, when she did houses, she charged $40 an hour and had no trouble getting clients. She does strictly commercial clients because they understand that asking for extras costs more money. Private clients would agree on what needed to be done and the price for that and then leave notes asking for more an more each week.

As for the original question, if a gentle remark about how you would be more comfortable if he cleaned up a bit doesn't get the desired result, he is a slob and you are not going to change that.

Dear jer, no one wants to help you clean your shit (literally or figuratively). I'm not sure why that's so hard for YOU to hear. Would you go to a messy woman's house and say "let's scrub your toilet this morning, and then I'll cook you some steaks tonite, and then rub your feet?" Seriously, would you? And HAVE you ever?

A person who likes you and wants to spend time with you doens't want to do it. A woman who otherwise wants to have sex with you doesn't want to do it. It ain't happening.

Do you still take a weekend laundry bag home to mom?

And what college did you attend, that had maid service for all students? Do you think maybe that "maid service" was your roomies getting sick of the environment you expected them to be grateful to help clean and doing something about it behind your back?

On the other end of the scale, I have a friend that is married to a guy that thinks the house is dirty if he can't see fresh vacuum tracks at all times. The entire house is his zen garden and he is not at peace unless the vacuum marks show. In every carpeted room. At all times.

Better she than me.

Isn't the pride someone takes in managing their own lives a pretty damn strong indication of future behavior? If anyone keeps a house so messy that it's unsanitary, that is a very strong indication that they lack personal responsibility. I'd wager that their bank accounts are a mess, they have unpaid bills and are generally selfish people. This isn't going to change by hiring a maid.

(I do agree with Jerry that manipulating someone even for something as simple as taking out the trash is vile and indicative of a relationship that is completely off the rails. If you agree to something, you do it. However, if you agree that the other person will do a chore, you must respect how they do it and if you don't like how they do it, do it yourself.

Hint to women; if you don't like how your husband/boyfriend puts away the dishes, cleans the bathroom or vacuums, don't bitch about him not doing it. Likewise guys; if you ask your girlfriend to take the car to the shop and the work isn't done the way you wanted, don't be an ass about it. Be grateful.)

Hey momof4, you seem to be getting a bit angry and personal in your responses and you have accused me of lying. I'm not sure why, but it's totally uncalled for.

Dear jer, no one wants to help you clean your shit (literally or figuratively). I'm not sure why that's so hard for YOU to hear. Would you go to a messy woman's house and say "let's scrub your toilet this morning, and then I'll cook you some steaks tonite, and then rub your feet?" Seriously, would you? And HAVE you ever?

So note how you and Amy change the goalposts from a problem of clutter and "biohazards" to fixating on cleaning the toilet.

There is a huge difference between helping cleaning a kitchen, uncluttering a living room, helping sweep, vacuum, or swiffer the floors, or cleaning a bathroom, and fixating on cleaning the toilet as if that was the sole tax.

My guess is that if LW helped with those other tasks, that she could get boyfriend to clean the actual toilet.

And I have:
unclogged their toilets (and not my clog thank you)
fixed leaky plumbing
unjammed garbage disposals
unvirused computers
clean up their barf
fixed their cars
move
provided shoulders while they complained about their parents and girlfriends
and all the other usual crap

So yes, if any of the above were such enormous issues for me, I would let girlfriend know that they are issues, and that I am happy to help her to these things, and if she can continue to put with me afterwards, I would gladly fix her a nice steak dinner and then eat her out and more even if she did have lifetime turned on in the other room.

Still not sure what's so hard about LW telling boyfriend the clutter and bathroom bothers her, can she help with cleaning it some morning and then get to schtupping that evening.

And what college did you attend, that had maid service for all students? Do you think maybe that "maid service" was your roomies getting sick of the environment you expected them to be grateful to help clean and doing something about it behind your back?

I went to a college that specialized in math, science, and engineering. It's fairly well known.

It was about 75% men, 25% women, and to take away the issues of housecleaning, they provided us housekeepers.

But I don't think it was that unusual for schools to do that then or now.

So you can take any accusations that I am either lying, or mistook my roommates for maids and you can shove them straight up your ass.

Joe said:

(I do agree with Jerry that manipulating someone even for something as simple as taking out the trash is vile and indicative of a relationship that is completely off the rails. If you agree to something, you do it. However, if you agree that the other person will do a chore, you must respect how they do it and if you don't like how they do it, do it yourself.)
_____________________________

OK, maybe I should have been more specific.

(BTW, Deborah Tannen is the author of "You Just Don't Understand" and the interview was from the fall of 1990.)

Her point was that saying "honey, I'm busy, would you please take out the garbage" sounds too much like an order from the male perspective, which might make him carelessly postpone taking out the trash until the truck has already left, but saying: "honey, the trash is full" might not make him balk so much.

Here is what makes no sense to me regarding some people’s position on this issue.

Cleaning for him, helping him clean, and hiring a maid service just one time all are classified as acting like his mother and treating him like a child.

Yet at the same time these people are advocating telling this guy that he better clean his room or he doesn't get to play.

Sorry, but that kind of attitude is exactly the way parents treat their children.

If only there was a way for these people to act like adults and have a mature conversation about this without having to resort to ultimatums or one person scrubbing another person’s fecal matter off the walls.

This entire debate has clearly devolved from anything resembling of a rational conversation when these are the only options left available.

If this guy really lives in absolute and utter squalor and is happy with it that way, then he just might not be the right guy for her.

If on the other hand things aren’t at the point where the state needs to come in and condemn his living space then perhaps a reasonable discussion that seeks mutually acceptable solutions is in order as opposed to all the manipulative things being suggested so far.

If anyone cares, here's the Peggy Taylor interview with Tannen. Granted, in it, Tannen seems to be talking more about long-term couples than couples who are still trying to decide if they should be together.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=8437883

Q: So it sounds like you're saying that in a classic domestic squabble such as a woman asking her mate to take out the garbage, there's likely to be two very different agendas going on. The woman who's asking her mate to help out probably thinks, "What's the big deal? It'll just take a minute." But for the man it may really be a big deal.

A: I think so. As in, "Uh oh she's telling me what to do. If I hop to it I'm subordinate here." It's an alignment that's being established: I'm one down and I'm being told what to do. Whereas for her, it's just one request. She's thinking of it as if they're on equal footing and no one is one up or one down.

Also, if you like, here's the famous "The Politics of Housework," 1970, by Pat Mainardi of Redstockings. (Again, this is clearly about a married couple.)

http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/81/t/000475.html

Excerpts:

........So ensued a dialogue that's been going on for several years. Here are some of the high points:

"I don't mind sharing the housework, but I don't do it very well. We should each do the things we're best at."

MEANING: Unfortunately I'm no good at things like washing dishes or cooking. What I do best is a little light carpentry, changing light bulbs, moving furniture (how often do you move furniture?).

ALSO MEANING: Historically the lower classes (black men and us) have had hundreds of years experience doing menial jobs. It would be a waste of manpower to train someone else to do them now.

ALSO MEANING: I don't like the dull, stupid, boring jobs, so you should do them.

"I don' t mind sharing the work, but you'll have to show me how to do it."

MEANING: I ask a lot of questions and you'll have to show me everything every time I do it because I don't remember so good. Also don' t try to sit down and read while I'M doing my jobs because I'm going to annoy hell out of you until it's easier to do them yourself.

"We used to be so happy!" (Said whenever it was his turn to do something.)

MEANING: I used to be so happy.

MEANING: Life without house work is bliss. No quarrel here. Perfect Agreement.

"We have different standards, and why should I have to work to your standards? That's unfair."

MEANING: If I begin to get bugged by the dirt and crap I will say, "This place sure is a sty" or "How can anyone live like this?" and wait for your reaction. I know that all women have a sore called "Guilt over a messy house" or "Household work is ultimately my responsibility." I know that men have caused that sore-if anyone visits and the place is a sty--they're not going to leave and say, "He sure is a lousy housekeeper." You'll take the rap in any case. I can outwait you.

ALSO MEANING: I can provoke innumerable scenes over the housework issue. Eventually doing all the housework yourself will be less painful to you than trying to get me to do half. Or I'll suggest we get a maid. She will do my share of the work. You will do yours. It's women's work.

"I've got nothing against sharing the housework, but you can' t make me do it on your schedule."

MEANING: Passive resistance. I'll do it when I damned well please, if at all. If my job is doing dishes, it's easier to do them once a week. If taking out laundry, once a month. If washing the floors, once a year. If you don't like it, do it yourself oftener, and then I wont do it at all.

"I hate it more than you. You don't mind it so much."

MEANING: Housework is garbage work. It's the worst crap I've ever done. It's degrading and humiliating for someone of my intelligence to do it. But for someone of your intelligence....

"Housework is too trivial to even talk about."

MEANING: It's even more trivial to do. Housework is beneath my status. My purpose in life is to deal with matters of significance. Yours is to deal with matters of insignificance. You should do the housework.

"This problem of housework is not a man-woman problem. In any relationship between two people one is going to have a stronger personality and dominate."

MEANING: That stronger personality had better be me.

"In animal societies, wolves, for example, the top animal is usually a male even where he is not chosen for brute strength but on the basis of cunning and intelligence. Isn't that interesting?

MEANING: I have historical, psychological, anthropological and biological justification for keeping you down. How can you ask the top wolf to be equal?.........

(snip)

I didn't call you a lair, jackass, when I call you a liar I'll say "You're lying". So shove that up your own ass.

I've attended 2 4-year colleges, siblings (including their advanced degrees, I don't have one) attended 5 more. None even offered maid service as an extra. I've never heard of such, in all my college apps, either. I was curious as to what college (colleges, you say) do. Try reading a little less into things, Mkay? I don't do oblique nasty, when I want to insult you I'll do it in clearly understood black and white terms.

You seem pretty certain any woman in your life romantically owes you cleaning if she doens't like your mess. It's not a stretch to think you would have expected roommates to deal with your mess, too.

"And what college did you attend, that had maid service for all students? Do you think maybe that "maid service" was your roomies getting sick of the environment you expected them to be grateful to help clean and doing something about it behind your back?"

momof4, I told you my experience, you told me I was wrong in experiencing that, and it was really my roommates to sick of my stuff and so did it for me.

Truly, you absolutely called me a liar. If you were merely asking a question.

Remember, it's not the crime that's so bad momof4, it's your covering it up.

Your having attended 2 4-year schools and not experiencing that combined with what you perceive of your siblings schools means very little.

Tell me when you have randomly sampled colleges, or even googled dorm and housekeeping

https://www.google.com/search?q=dorm+housekeeping

Oh look, the very first hit is titled,

Maid service in dorms? It's expected at some colleges

Oh, yes, jerry and if you read further:

This fall, freshmen at George Washington University will have a little work to do that their predecessors did not: cleaning their own bathrooms. The university announced last month that it will eliminate its maid-like housekeeping services (which included vacuuming the rooms and cleaning private bathrooms) in freshman residence halls.
As a result of the change, housing rates will not increase in many of the freshman residence halls for the 2010-11 academic year.

"The impetus of this is that the housekeeping staff was often not able to do their duties," Director of Media Relations Michelle Sherrard said, adding that the rooms were frequently too messy for the housekeepers to vacuum properly. "This decision to no longer provide housekeeping services in first-year rooms was not primarily based on the economy, although it is always the University's goal to help families meet the cost of a GW education," she added in an e-mail.

So technically it was NOT "maid service" but enhanced "house-keeping" services.

If you're going to make a point, at least be honest about it.

I have no idea what your point is Flynne.

The school I went to had "maid service" which yes was "housekeeping".

I did not go to George Washington University.

George Washington University's maid-like housekeeping service is not the standard for all such services.

The article is indeed titled "Maid service in dorms? It's expected at some colleges" and goes on to describe the maid service available at many colleges.

Do those maids clean the dorm room's kitchen? Probably not as there is no kitchen.

Did they clean the private bathroom?

which included vacuuming the rooms and cleaning private bathrooms)

At our place we had the bathrooms cleaned, the beds changed and maid and the carpets vacuumed.

Maybe you can tell me the difference between that and maid service?

I don't even know why this is such a big deal, but I was certainly being honest about it Flynne.

Remember Flynne, this was the original context:

Lemona asked

"Which made me wonder, how do two young men sharing a dorm room ever get their room reasonably neat when they can't stand it anymore - but neither wants to be the first to start?)"

And I answered

"Often the campus makes maid service available to all, thus avoiding the problem."

And momof4 decided I must be lying. Huh? Over that answer?

My point was that on most campuses where "maid" service is offered, it's really "house-keeping" services, which are NOT one and the same, and it's not the norm at most colleges. You were implying that it is. I'm saying that it's not, for exactly the reasons stated in the article: ...the housekeeping staff was often not able to do their duties," Director of Media Relations Michelle Sherrard said, adding that the rooms were frequently too messy for the housekeepers to vacuum properly." In other words, the freshmen were MESSY. It was sometimes TOO much to expect the housekeeping staff to keep up with it. So what we've been trying to get at here is, At WHAT point is messy TOO messy? And who is responsible for cleaning it up, if not the PERSON who made the mess?

What do you perceive the duties of the dorm housekeeper is versus the dorm maid service?

I perceive them to be equivalent, and what we had were:

clean bathroom (shared between two rooms)
clean sink (one per room)
sweep floors
takeout trash
clean windows, mirror
change sheets if the student had laid out new sheets

I have no idea what your point is otherwise, I was answering Lemona's question, how do college males survive.

My answer was, some of them are offered a maid service.

If you want to call that a housekeeping service and not a maid service, I ask again, what do you perceive is the difference?

And the article quoted representatives of four other institutions that referred to the maid service at their institution.

Remember YOU accused me of not being honest by calling it a maid service and not a housekeeping service, you didn't say I was somehow missing the point. Now the goal posts are changing AGAIN.

Maid service and housekeeping service differs thusly: maid service is individualized, i.e., one or two maids that take care of a single household; housekeeping is usually larger-scale, with a staff of housekeepers cleaning multiple rooms in large establishments, such as hotels, hospitals, whatever. If you want to split hairs over who is called what, fine. But you're still missing the bottom line here (let me emphasize it for you):

At WHAT point is messy TOO messy? And who is responsible for cleaning it up, if not the PERSON who made the mess?

That is what we're looking to answer here. The goal posts were changed by YOU, first. I just tried to clarify. (Let me guess: you don't have a steady girlfriend, do you? It's okay if you don't, because I don't really care one way or the other. Your nit-pickiness tells me all I need to know.)

Oh please, talk about being dishonest.

Insulting you isn't a crime, and if I do it, you'll know. It won't be all subtle-like.

Maybe Amy's LW went to a rich-kid school like Jerry and never learned how to clean up after himself.

Actually momof4, I never said insulting me was a crime, I did suggest that you should be more honest and recognize calling someone a liar is normally taken to be an insult.

Also, since I showed ample schools where maid service is provided, a simple, "oh, I was mistaken, I am sorry" would have sufficed over your "I didn't insult you dumbass" non apology.

Yeah, it's true ahw, I went to a "rich kid" school where the tuition was $4500 per year and which I paid for with scholarships the first year and by working 20 hour weeks the next three years. And because I went to a school with maid service, I never learned how to clean up after myself.

I dont mind being asked to clean or do something meial or janitorial. What bothers me is when I'm asked to do something, do(ing) it, and then being to that I'm doing/done it the wrong way