Colleges acting as surrogate parents is nothing new, back in the day they had Dorm Mothers and rules about who could sleep in whose room.

It's a private organization, it can do what it wants.

And you do realize "greek" doesn't mean "of greek ethnicity", I'm sure if there was an ethnically greek club they'd be all for it.

Eh, this I agree with.

The "Greek" organizations -intentionally- prey on Freshmen these days, before they get their feet under them, make friends, learn how to connect with people.

I've supported a "can't join til you've made it past at least 2 semesters/quarters" rule since, well, my freshman year in college. :)

"And you do realize "greek" doesn't mean "of greek ethnicity", I'm sure if there was an ethnically greek club they'd be all for it."

Yeah, I don't understand the comparison to black, Jewish, and Asian cultural groups. Apples and oranges.

You don't live at the Asian cultural center and get hazed into a brotherhood. Anyone can go to their events. The Greek system, on the other hand, is a lifestyle.

I don't think /I/ would prohibit students from joining, but I think Princeton should be able to make whatever rules it wants in its own interest. I'm sure their goal is to get everyone out of there with a diploma.

Any school has the right to make it's own rules. Don't like it? Don't go there. They can't limit association with jewish etc organizations because of discrimination against a particular ethnic group. People who join frats are not greek. There's no discrimination here.

"Rent a friend! Join a frat!"

Then again, maybe I just despise frats soooo much because of hte frequency with which my roomie and I were chatted up at clubs by frat boys wanting to know what we'd charge to "perform" a lesbian sex show at the frat house. Lovely people, them.

All in favor of it. Frats are organizations of abuse. (And calling them "Greek," which I know is the norm, is an insult to that beautiful, magnificent culture -- you know, the actual Greek one.) Princeton should just ban them outright. Then that'd be the end of it. My alma mater did that 50 years ago.

Frats and sororities exist to exclude other people. Whenever I meet a liberal who rails against elitism but proudly belonged to the Greek system, I do an inward eye roll.

It's not really Princeton's entry into helicopter parenting. I was short-listed there last year and during the interview was told how much mentoring students receive. One troubled student was getting mentoring from a faculty member to try to bring his grades up, meetings with a counselor for his emotional issues, and monitoring by his college.

I went to a very large state school where you could do just about anything you wanted but no one was holding your hand. I think about that when my fellow academics consistently promote people with the right pedigree, starting with undergraduate years at a Princeton or Harvard.

This is blatantly unconstitutional. Freedom of association is no less important than freedom of speech, religion or the press, but it is under constant assault by both the left and the right.

Freedom of association and speech are two pillars of freedom; religious freedom and a free press both derive from this. Many concepts in the US Constitution are based on the notion that there is a inalienable right to associate with whom you will. (Hence a limited government, including a very limited commerce clause.)

Though given all the assaults on freedom, perhaps the founding fathers erred in not putting in writing a third pillar of freedom; the inalienable right to fail.

I was never really interested in joining a sorority in college, not that I could have afforded it. But I was so relieved when my daughter avoided the Greek system during undergrad. Instead she used her time wisely; she rowed crew, was a founding member of Tri-Beta (science honor society) and spent countless hours in a lab studying the effects of pomegranate juice extract on pancreatic cancer cells. Oh and managed to graduate in 3.5 years, on the dean's list every semester and had a wonderfully, fulfilling undergrad experience. Oh she also graduated with very little student loan debt from a private university in So. Cal. Love those heavily endowed private schools with deep pockets!

NicoleK, it is a private organization, but may a private organization dictate what people do on their own time? Can Princeton dictate what speech students may engage in when off campus? Can Princeton dictate what church students may attend?

I presume a Princeton student can still join a chess club, just not the Omega-Delta Chess Club.

I can't edit them, so I should revise my remarks a little. There is a genuine debate in this country about how far a private organization may go before it becomes a defacto public organization. Princeton accepts public monies and has created an environment which the courts have declared in part is a public organization. (I'd be more willing to cut Princeton slack if they were truly private in all regards.)

Having said that, Princeton is a private organization, and thus their acts are not "blatantly unconstitutional" in a legal sense, but are so in a traditional sense, especially given that Princeton is a University and Universities were intended, above all, to be places of enlightenment.

Deer Princeton,

This policy is a nice, fat lawsuit waiting to happen. You're attempting to keep students from joining an non-affiliated organization?

What's next? forbid them from joining the National Guard/Reserves?

Keep in mind: these freshmen are adults. They can sign contracts. Join the military. Get married. Get divorced.

Are freshmen more likely to do stupid and silly things? sure. Doing these things provides an education that no school can provide.

Amy and Joe,

This is not unconstitutional. Princeton is not a government agency, and the rights to free speech and free association are rights against government, not against private actors. The power Princeton has is solely to stop associating with someone whose behaviour it does not like, which is the power any private individual or organization has. It may be a stupid idea, but it does not offend the constitution.

I R A Darth Aggie,

I have the right to refuse service (including educational service) to anyone except where prohibited by specific restrictions, such as refusing service based on race, national origin, disability, or other classes protected by state or federal law. There might be a tort action based on breach of contract by taking my money but refusing to supply the education, but in general, courts have given schools wide leeway to enforce disciplinary rules via suspension or expulsion.

I don't understand how in one breath you can say a business should reserve the right to not serve gay people, and in the next say that Princeton shouldn't refuse service to kids who participate in something they perceive as detrimental to their reputation.

I don't understand any of these "free speech on campus" movements that pertain to non-public universities. You have a right to free speech and to assemble, but no one has a right to attend Princeton.

Of course, if Princeton doesn't officially recognize them...

How would they know if a student pledged?

Princeton left it up to a committee to decide how to enforce compliance,

Aha.

If I join the Klan, my employer can fire me, even if I only march while on vacation.

Princeton evaluates even their /applicants/ on the basis of their extracurricular activities, because they want a certain type of student who will perform well and uphold their reputation. I have no problem with them having rules against frats, even off campus. Attending Princeton is voluntary, and I'm guessing these rules are well established ahead of time.

The other day I heard on the radio that somewhere (not sure where because I turned on mid-presentation) teachers are no longer allowed to congratulate students when they are accepted into colleges, and students are no longer allowed to talk about their application / acceptance process because it makes non-college-bound kids feel excluded.

Meloni: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ny-prep-schools-ban-students-from-announcing-acceptance-into-ivy-league-schools-to-protect-other-students/

Meloni/Insufficient Poison,

What a stupid ban, but again, private parties and not illegal, since the schools listed are private.

Insufficient Poison, if Princton recives just one cent in federal or state tax money directly, or gains just one cent from deffered or waived property taxes then they are not a private institution but a governemnt funded service

I'd be more willing to cut Princeton slack if they were truly private in all regards.

No such thing as "truly private in all regards." We're all interdependent. And we all get some benefit from the commons.

"In keeping with a belief that fraternities and sororities promote social exclusiveness".

How do you treat cramps in smile muscles?

This is Princeton, an exclusive, expensive ivy university which advertises and sells the "experience" and connections which a Princeton education confers on its graduates.

The private message is "You are special". The public message (to be ignored) is that you are ordinary folks who shouldn't flout your (possibly well earned) superiority.

Amy,

Princeton can regulate the off-campus activities of its students, so long as the means of regulation extend no further than kicking them out/refusing to do business with them further. Your employer can fire you for off-the-job activities, and your dry cleaner can kick you out if he saw you on TV last night after you were convicted of some heinous crime. It may not be a good thing for them to do, but it is lawful.

lujlp, I do wonder where the line between public and private lies. The government pays Princeton to do research, but that isn't the same as funding them. They're referred to as a private institution in all documentation that I can find. Does it count if they get mail delivered? If the state puts signage on Rte. 206?

Regardless of what you think of frats or this particular policy, don't you guys think it SHOULD be legal to run a self-sustaining private school that enforces rules about off-campus lifestyle and conduct? Remember that students attend voluntarily and sign an application.

Not only should the freshman be allowed to pledge fraternities, but I'd go even further to suggest that Princeton hasn't the moral authority to infringe on the rights of its students. They shouldn't be able to restrict any of the rights granted by the Constitution + Bill of Rights, off campus or even on campus.

Because the Federal Government has inserted itself into tertiary education, Princeton cannot survive without public money and/or loan guarantees from the feds, whether they be direct grants of cash to pursue research or student loans guaranteed by Sallie Mae. Because of this, Princeton has a moral obligation to stay neutral on things like the Greek System. There should be no more impediment to joining a fraternity than joining the chess club. It's not up to Princeton to decide what is a "good" club or a "bad" club.

Only a truly private institution should be able to abridge my rights. I can't speak freely at work, but they give me money to be there. I wouldn't pay money to a private institution that would insist I give up my rights to attend, and the taxpayers shouldn't either.

Aren't there colleges that kick you out if you're not Christian? Fine, as a Wiccan I wouldn't apply.

1) I don't think this is anything new. It's pretty common for schools to require a certain number of credits as well as a certain GPA for students to rush/pledge. At my school it was 12 credits. I think in many cases it's enforced by Nationals (ie the nation-wide organization behind each sorority/fraternity as well).

2) This has nothing to do with race/ethnicity. There are Jewish, Asian, and Black sororities and fraternities as well and I'd assume these would be included under the ban.

3) You really can't compare a fraternity to the chess club--they're entirely different types of organizations with very very different time commitments, university affiliations (does the chess club get its school-affiliated house, for instance?), and lifestyle implications. A better analogy would be a school requiring student athletes to maintain a 2.5 to stay on the basketball team, for instance.

4) Greek life is a huge time commitment that involves lots of drinking and partying and I can see where it would be really easy for an incoming freshman who'd never managed their own time before to get sucked in, start skipping class, and fail out. Obviously it's in the school's best interest for that NOT to happen. I'm pretty sure that's the driving factor, not helicopter parents.

Shannon, in the case of Princeton the Greek system is not part of the offical campus, meaning they get no housing or funds of any sort from the school.

Its tantamount to saying incoming freshman cant attend church or other off campus social activites groups