On another forum a poster noted: Hurricane Sandy has proven once again that you should never underestimate the stupidity of certain people. The storm was forecast well in advance, so why were there runs on basic supplies *after* the storm had already hit?

A larger question: why is the infrastructure so fragile that a major storm leaves people without electricity for days, perhaps weeks? This is just pathetic. The US as a third-world nation.

Of course, FEMA did it's usual great job, arriving without necessary equipment, not understanding local needs, and leaving before their job was done. FEMA is a waste of resources, and should be dismantled along with lots of other useless federal departments.

A larger question: why is the infrastructure so fragile that a major storm leaves people without electricity for days, perhaps weeks? This is just pathetic. The US as a third-world nation.

US is a first world nation and that is why people are without electricity only when a major storm strikes. In most third world countries, there is no electricity on even the good days leave alone the days with storms. Why do you think things are back to normal in just a few days in countries like India? It is because the normal itself is living a life without electricity.

That apart, I agree with your point of why people who did not have essentials stocked well in advance are dumb.

The reason we have these laws is because the USA then was not so robust as the USA now and all it took was one disaster to permanently alter cost structures. Go to any third world country where things are run by mom and pop retailers. If prices on any commodity rise once, that is it, they remain at the increased level or fall but rest at a level higher than what it used to be pre-rise. And this will happen in just one city in the whole country because that city had some blah blah reason for the once in a while rise. Things were not too different in USA either when these laws were framed and that is why such laws exist. While it may not be possible to enforce these laws on individuals who stocked up, it will be possible to enforce these on corporate chains and mom and pop retailers who start operations post the disaster and that takes care of any permanent sudden hike in prices and the market is restored to a state of efficiency which actually gets distorted when the disaster strikes.

It says merchants can't charge more than a 10% mark-up for a 30-day period following a state of emergency. State Attorney General Jeffrey Chiesa announced cases against eight businesses, including gas stations and a lodging provider, on Friday.

I bet the hotelier was charging rack rate, which is the same amount they would charge at the height of summer when the beach was open. So how is that gouging?

So on Long Island they have Carter-style gas rationing now, which means additional effort for law enforcement that should be out watching for looters and trying to maintain basic social order. They had to do that because, as Amy points out, when prices are kept artificially low, people buy stuff they don't need and hoard, and they use what they buy irresponsibly. What always happens in the aftermath of a disaster? You get lookie-lous, people driving around and gawking and getting in the way. If gas prices were allowed to float to market, that problem would solve itself because no one would spend the money to be a lookie-lou.

Waffle House -- yes, Waffle House -- does a better job of allocating resources in the wake of a disaster than the government does. FEMA itself admits it.

Get use to the French Revolution. It is here to stay. If the mob can't have something free or cheap, then the mob will deny it to everyone, because it is "fair."

Amy,

Do you know about rack rates? Probably because NYC's available hotel rooms are now at a premium they are going to charge the rack rate.

Do you blame them. Especially when you have government employees using them. They don't care about the price. They have a government credit card.

I've seen it happen other places. I had to pay rack rate of $200 a night in a former Motel 8 one time because I had a sudden trip at the same time a big local music fest was going on in PA.

That is market forces, not gouging.

As one of the Long Islanders affected by the hurricane, let me address the "why didn't they stock up" question. Most of us did stock up. I was in a mandatory evacuation area and had a very difficult time finding a hotel with occupancy. I filled the tanks in both of my cars but had to travel quite a distance to the hotel during evacuation.

Our hotel lost power and despite promises before check-in that we would operate under a generator, none of the rooms were hooked up which meant that I had kids in a room with no lights, no heat, no working appliance, which meant breakfast, lunch, and dinner came out of some kind of bag that didn't need regrigeration or heat. Obviously no restaurants were delivering during a hurricane and we were not venturing out. But we were well stocked with food that we shared with others in the hotel.

When we came home, we were attempting to help those who lost homes and over a week later still had no power. Finding a grocery store that had power or food was difficult and did require driving. Delivering food, water, etc, required driving. Picking up people's pets who needed housing required driving. None of my driving was to sight see or frivolous. And I drive a small car that is good on gas.

I waited on a gas line when I finally needed gas for over an hour which was one of the best times. I'm all for people making a buck and encourage anyone with a brain to come up with an idea that will make them money. However, when our government blocked gas from coming in and then allowed it to trickle in, I don't think price gouging is what was intended for a capitalist system. People are still running homes on generators which require gas. Schools have opened and some people have been displaced to places that are a 45 minute drive. Try telling that person who must get a kid to and from school that their driving is frivolous and that the gas shortage is something that price gougers deserve to get rich off of.

My community ranges from very affluent to middle class and some not so middle class. This hurricane is financially crippling many. My damage was minimal but just housing and feeding all of the people I've tried to help has hit me financially. So please, you are all welcome to your opinions, but try to remember that this is affecting real people who have worked their entire lives only to see so much washed away. This is affecting real people and not an exercise in economics 101.

One other thing I'd like to address. Many people who live in my community have grown up here and have family that has lived here for over 50 years. We pay insurance premiums as part of our mortgage payment. That is a requirement and would be silly of anyone to not take out. However, many of the insurance companies are telling people who lost everything that they don't have the proper coverage. FEMA is here but also not covering everything. We have peope who had basements and 1st floors submerged in salt water rendering boilers, electric boxes and heaters useless. One friend paid $13,000 for a new boiler and burner, normally around 5 or 6 thousand. And of course, once they got in, they needed duct work which is several thousand more. Insurance coverage yet to be determined.
Does anyone really think that is a good way to do business? Preying on people's misery who are freezing in homes with kids and doubling and tripling prices? Preying on people's desperation and hardship may make the immediate money but my community is all taking note of who helped and who ripped off. there will be a lot of businesses that will never get another customer when this crisis is over. Another thought to add to the price gouging.

Amy, I don't disagree that it is part of the free market. But let's not confuse the ideal of a free market with the lowest form of humanity. It is not the fault of the people needing gas that there is a shortage and many did prepare and stock up. Gas cans are now more than triple in price as well.

There has been a lot of human kindness shown in this storm but like every other terrible situation, there are the snakes who come out from under there rocks. You're probably right that greed shouldn't be legislated but I do think that there are times a consumer needs protection. If I were out joyriding wasting the resources, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but just helping people is causing a financial burden.

Yeah, there might be price gouging, but when all the local supplies are bought up more have to be trucked in, stat, and rushes cost money, fuel costs money, so everything is going to cost more money.

And the store owners who get paid more can pay others to bring in more supplies faster.

Cause I'm sure the store owner suffered damage as well, and are getting the run around from their insurance companies as well, but they have to but the equipment to keep their stores operating lest they go out of business entierly and then where are you going to buy anything?

What Redrajesh said.

People are ungrateful for the tremendous, fragile wealth of modern life.

> It is not the fault of the people needing
> gas that there is a shortage

It is. It is their fault.

I seriously believe this: It's my fault for not having stores of food and gas and a shed in the back yard to sleep in after the earthquake hits.

It's not possible to disagree with Kristin any more deeply about this. She's ungrateful for her day-to-day wealth... As am I when I fail to use it to prepare for difficulties.

Crid, you always put a smile on my face even when I'm not sure you mean to.

Luj, the store owners are getting hit too. Many cannot open because of power and those that can open are paying higher costs as well. Obviously the consumer will feel that, but some of these places are just taking advantage.

Again, I'm all for a free market, but there are times where the consumer does need to be protected. It may sound like I'm contradicting myself but the Craigslist guys don't bother me. Its the local businesses that are ripping off their regular clientele that are disgusting.

define hoarding. What's the difference between stocking up/preparing for disaster and hoarding? The line between these is fuzzy at best. I guess it depends on who is using these terms.

define hoarding

Hoarding
hoard·ing/ˈhôrdiNG/
Noun:
A temporary board fence erected around a building site.
Verb:
To gather up or store
Liberal Double Plus Good:
When someone evil, usually a republican, has the gall to plan ahead and buys food and supplies instead of the NFL season ticket on DirectTV and refuses to help his kind neighbors who find the local Chilis too damaged to take their food stamps and laughs cruelly as they starve in the street because only an evil person in league with the devil could have forseen such a calamity.

Price gouging?

Here's a story about another type of price gouging - NYC employees get free gasoline. Yep, if one works for NYC they can get free gas for their personal vehicles.

They showed this on the local TV news here in NY. Tankers trucks pull up to a designated area (I assume that employees were notified by email or somehow where to show up) and the employees can pull up their personal cars and get free (i.e., taxpayor paid for) gasoline.

This was suppose to be for employees such a firemen, policemen, EMTs, etc. You know those that really do need to get to work and cannot sit in lines for hours or, perhaps, they often use their personal car for work.

However, some "intelligent" person set the program up so that ALL NYC employees could get free gas. The TV cameras showed office secretaries and other such employees lined up to get gas. Most admitted that this wasn't really fair; but, hey, they aren't breaking any rules. (except the rule of being what most of us would call "being fair")

Only one guy waiting in line that the TV reporter spoke to was a fireman. I assume he was the only one because the line for this free gas was about 3 hours long and most first-responders didn't have that much time to waste. But the office bureaucrats sure did have the time.

Just beautiful - our tax dollars at work in Obamanation. (yea, I know, Obama had nothing to do with this; but, I am going to blame him for everything the next 4 years and beyond, well, just because . . . "blame Bush" is old school)

Amen to everything that Kristen said; especially this:

our government blocked gas from coming in and then allowed it to trickle in.

I have a feeling that this part of the story is not being heard outside the NYC metro area.

Another issue with the long lines, and I can only speak for central Jersey, is that for a couple of days after the storm less than 25% of the gasoline stations were open. Most, like everyone else, did not have power. Those 25% that were open quickly sold all of their stock.

Yes, part of this was some folks did not "prepare."

However, for those of you not in the Northeast, New Jersey isn't that small. One can easily use up a tank of gas driving from one part of the state to another - something several folks had to do to check on relatives because many folks were not just without power they were without phone service, including cell phones. Many cell towers lost power so cell service was quite spotty.

Lastly, you could call it "poor planning." However, most of us did not expect the cold, cold temps that followed this storm. Those folks who ran generators before (just last year for Irene) did not expect to run out of their own stockpiles so fast as they didn't plan for running the generators for the house's heating system as well.

Sandy and its aftermath was a triple "treat" - Hurricane Sandy and her storm surge, the cold afterwards and lastly the nor'easter that just finished over the weekend which dumped snow along the Jersey shore. (personally, I blame Obama - no reason, I just want to blame him for everything - along with the asses that re-elected him)

Charles, the gas situation is crazy. I'm not sure if it eased up in Jersey at all, but here, Gov Cuomo's answer was to tell New Yorkers he was bringing trucks of free gas in as a way to alleviate the lines. Of course, those lines were even longer and there was the problem of the truck not actually showing up. More wasted gas by desperate people looking for gas, and free gas at that.

I had no intention of going for the free gas but hoped the lure would lighten some of the gas lines by me. No such luck and a week after the gov told us the gas crisis should be over we are now doing odd/even days and still long lines.

If the government wants to go after the gougers, I'd like to know what they're doing for their own incompetency between the gas flow, and the lack of preparedness of electricity and heat.

As I said before. I planned. I did everything I was supposed to do plus some.

"New Jersey isn't that small. One can easily use up a tank of gas driving from one part of the state to another"

I think if you take any of the interstates(80, 287), you would probably reach another state by the time you cover 50 miles. I don't think it takes a tank of gas to cover 50 miles

It does in high density population areas where 3/4 of your gas is wasted idling at stop signs and red lights

Taking the interstate and reach another state within 50 miles. I've already said New Jersey isn't THAT small! 50 miles? What kinda map are you looking at?

And in the first couple of days after the storm for some people it was not possible to even reach the interstate; with downed trees and wires many roads were impassable.

Lujlp has pointed out correctly that local roads (when you could go on them) were nothing but stop and go, going around fallen trees, etc. That does use up a lot of gas. Oh, BTW, without power most traffic lights were out - that means, under NJ law, ALL intersections with lights not working are to be treated as a 4-way stop intersection. That also adds to the stop and go effect burning up more gas.

Not to mention many of the interstates often are nothing more than parking lots when you do reach them.

Kristen, yes, the gas situation has eased up quite a bit here in NJ. Sometimes there are still lines; but nothing like the first couple of days after the storm. Power being restored had a lot to do with it getting better. There are about 5 stations near me and only 2 were open on that Wednesday after the storm. Now, all of them are open and have gas. (keeping my fingers crossed on that)

In fact, some have no lines late at night and I've heard that when there is no line some of the more rural stations don't even check the odd-even plate restriction. I'd tell you to "just hang in there" - but, I know that sounds rather shallow and stupid and not helpful. But, I do hope that you and others are doing okay.

It might also help that NJ is one of only 2 states that do NOT allow pump-your-own. So lines are controlled by the station attendant. I don't know if that really is making a difference or not; but, perhaps, it helps to avoid a free-for-all with folks cutting the lines. Even in normal times many station attendants will not tolerate line cutters simply by refusing to pump the gas for the ass who tries to cut in line.

For whatever it is worth - some folks did not prepare; However, most folks did and they still got screwed. And they are getting salt rubbed into their wounds by being lumped together with those who didn't prepare.

I also agree that the government wasting its time and money going after someone on ebay or Craig's list, etc. who is "price gouging" is a total asshat move - especially when there are other more immediate needs!

Another problem is that gasoline doesn't store (anymore).

For pollution controls, gas goes "stale" very quickly.

Now, "straight-run gasoline" doesn't. Heck, look at Aviation gasoline. Lasts for YEARS in tanks.

But if you don't know that (And the lead content in 100LL is extreme if you're unaware of it), then you can't realistically store gas. (80UL has been "right around the corner" for years now)

My plan, when I can, is to get generators that will run on propane - I'd prefer diesel, which lasts forever, and you can run vegetable oil in usually - but it's much more expensive generator-wise.

"It is not the fault of the people needing gas that there is a shortage and many did prepare and stock up."

Sure it is. Whose responsibility IS IT to decide to move to an area with hundreds of thousands of people dependent on electrical networks AND the CONTINUOUS replenishment of gasoline?

Not being able to believe the system can fail, or not recognizing that it does, does not tranfer blame in the least.

You blame Floridians for living on a beach and not realizing they can be washed away by hurricanes. That the same hurricanes hit New England more rarely is no excuse to stop.

This applies all over. If you live near a national forest in Californie, you'd better be ready to lose everything to a forest fire.

Rad, nobody said there isn't an expectation when a natural disaster hits that some areas will get hit harder than others. I didn't DECIDE to move to an area that is dependent on electrical networks and the continuous replenishment of gasoline. I happen to have been raised here although I wonder where you live that you don't depend on electric or gas.

Thanks, Charles, I hope you're ok too!

Amy: "Gregg reminds me to keep my gas tank full in case I need to make a getaway."

Smart Man, that Gregg is, very smart. I can see why you like him.

I, too, keep my tank full. In fact when it reaches the half-way mark I fill up. Living where I do I never know when I might have to "bug out." Just a mile or so from the Raritan Bay, a little south of the Arthur Kill, and, of course, near the shore. It is mainly the Arthur Kill that worries me - all we need is for one of those tankers coming in to the ports to explode with something deadly and the whole area needs to bug out. I don't want to be stuck waiting in line for gas, or worse, be the fool on the interstate who runs out of gas. I'd much rather be like Tom Cruise in the movie "War of the Worlds" and be the only one with a working car that others are trying to get from me. I can, and WILL, defend myself and my property if/when all hell breaks lose.

Oh, and BTW, I live where I do because of jobs, jobs, jobs. Now, however, with Obama re-elected those jobs might just be gone, gone, gone. So, yea, moving out somewhere, off the grid is looking better and better.

> I didn't DECIDE to move to an area that is
> dependent on electrical networks and the
> continuous replenishment of gasoline.

What does that have to do with, y'know, other taxpayers? Who promised you that unless you explicitly chose otherwise, every day of life on Earth would be peaches and cream?

I don't get this. I seriously do not understand your perspective.

Excluding motorcycle ownership, skydives, scuba dives and volleys of weird sex, the greatest threat I ever faced from the natural world was probably Northridge.*

But here's the deal: More people died in the cold of Chicago that weekend than died from the collapsing buildings and freeways of Los Angeles... And so far as I know, the Second City received no federal aid in rebuilding.

Our planet is CAPRICIOUS. Some people die of cancer, others thrive on diets of bacon. It's not my fault. I don't feel the need to compensate you for acts of God, and will not expect you to compensate me for them. I'm 2400 feet from this: Note the change in elevation between the high school and its baseball diamond. That's a natural fault in the Earth's crust which is going to kill an enormous number of people someday. I know it and you know it... At least, both of us ought to know it. Why should you pick up the check when my real estate investment turns to shit?

I used to live in a city near Joplin, Missouri, which almost got wiped off the map last year by a tornado. I felt bad for them. But exactly how much of my income are you going to demand I sacrifice in order to help them rebuild? Ain't no tornadoes in California....

We are not all in this together. We have separate souls, separate bodies, and separate budgets for a reason.

*  Also, maybe, y'know, drugs. (1970's.) 

   Possibly.

   Not saying yes, not saying no.

Kristin, if I posted a link to a half-hour video, would you promise to watch it?

> If you live near a national forest in
> Californie, you'd better be ready to lose
> everything to a forest fire.

Raddy understates the madness of mountainside property in California in this respect.

Fire is what God wants for these hills. Mother nature demands fire at ten-year intervals... Twenty years, tops...

Just long enough for a real estate agent to convinced you that everything's under control.

Do you like that view of the valley from the infinity pool? It's priced to move, the seller is highly motivated....

Nothing in the foregoing is meant to heart Charles, or anyone else whose well-being (or even comfort) is being threatened.

IJS....

It's a dark planet.

Heart, harsh, whatever.

Crid, in what way did I say I expected your tax dollars to support where I live? I simply said that I did everything I was told to do in preparation and still was at a loss. The government prevented the gas from coming in and what limited resources we have are being fought over. Some businesses are price gouging and I think that's disgusting. Never did I say anyone should pay for my gas. In fact, I did say that the free gas brought in was not attractive to me in the least. I was willing to pay. I just didn't want to get robbed.

> I just didn't want to get robbed.

Then don't buy the fucking gas. I don't think you understand how small-minded your comment sounds... 'I did what I was TOLD to do!', as if there's some magical Daddy-wizard in government who knows all the ways that life can hurt you and has figured out how you can protect yourself. This is just not true. It's just not true, and I think the vast majority of people who've been voting (for candidates on both sides of the aisle) don't understand.

If you're in a disaster zone, and someone puts a pistol to your temple and says 'Give me your money or you're dead,' then you're being robbed. And I think government all levels should defend you. They should send in National Guard troops (etc.) to protect you.

(I've seen this happen twice in my life, boom-boom, in '92 [quake] and '94 [riots], when I lived next to the federal property where the 'Guard bivouacked. I learned to not bother making friends with the teenager from Tennessee who's standing at the freeway ramp with a loaded M-14 and a bored look on his face; by the time of the next disaster, his little brother will have taken the job, and that kid won't remember you... He won't remember how you both liked that one Janet Jackson record, and how you used to drop off sixes of Pibb and Mountain Dew [chilled!] for the afternoon squadron.)

I have no clue where she'd come down on this particular issue, but I'm reminded of something great that Postrel once said (fairly close paraphrase): A price is a piece of information about the conditions in the world.

A price isn't just the technique by which the uncaring Man stomps the throat of the little guy, OK? Prices offer glimpses of meaning about what's going on overseas or over the hill or in the capitals or the banks or the foundries or the farms.

Raising prices in a crisis isn't just the best —most reliable and fastest— way to restore services. It's essentially the only way to encourage those with resources outside the stricken area to take risks and move promptly to provide relief. Otherwise, why should they get out of bed on your behalf?

When you say 'I don't want to get robbed,' you're saying you want other people to come in and guarantee that you won't be distressed by a crisis; you'll want these saviors to dick around with the resources owned by third parties, to act in a resolutely authoritarian manner on your behalf.

This is exactly what governments around the world have been doing for the last few decades. I just read an article about Japan, which has been in the toilet for twenty years. Greece and much of Europe is circling the drain. And it's pretty obvious that our own government has no clue about how people can create wealth for each other, and is prepared to regulate us all into poverty...

Because you've told them they should know what the prices for things are! Barack Obama and Chris Christie believed you when you told them that.

Before you bat your lashes and mutter something about 'Who, little ol' ME?', be prepared to tell us precisely when a price becomes, in your words, "robbery."

When you offer that reply, I know that you're going to want to sound reasonable, and you'll offer to negotiate as the transaction occurs...

Which is how prices are set anyway! So there's nothing new under the sun. You just don't want to pay a lot of money for things (crisis or not).

Who does?

Obama is wrong: Having a government is not the same thing as buying insurance, and it's not the same thing as being prepared for crisis.

Raising prices in a crisis isn't just the best —most reliable and fastest— way to restore services. It's essentially the only way to encourage those with resources outside the stricken area to take risks and move promptly to provide relief. Otherwise, why should they get out of bed on your behalf?

In short, because they're expecting people to be altruistic even though the person saying such isn't.

Right on, Crid.

I just didn't want to get robbed.

Kristen:
But you're OK with robbing the guy with the gas?

If you send the NYPD to do the pointing of guns bit, you just outsourced the strongarming, after all.

So how much do you suppose it's costing to run a gas station right now in NYC? Probably nothing, right? Surely there will be no costs and cleanup they'll be dealing with later.

Crid, that last comment was brilliant. We are extremely blessed these days in how well we've managed to shield ourselves from how dark and uncaring of human comfort the world truly is, but it can make us sound silly when we're forced, however little, to face the truth.

From my favorite Onion article:

'Enough is enough. I'm paying through the nose here, and I don't want to die.'

World Death Rate Holding Steady At 100 Percent

Otherwise, why should they get out of bed on your behalf?
Because that's what marxists believe you should do if you are ideologically trained and developed.

...they are working for YOU and YOUR OWN GOOD.