This is so true! I make deals for a living, and I almost always make a good deal for myself. If you don't ask, you don't get!

Hmm, a bit concerned that fewer men negotiate when specifically told to negotiate.

But more curious, as to what the salaries were, set salary vs negotiated salary in the two scenarios. Which is better for the one hiring, since they want to pay the lowest price, for the same work.

if it were true that you could get women for 70 cents on the dollar, wouldn't everybody hire women instead of men?

No, because SEXISM and PATRIARCHY!!!

So true. My boss seemed surprised when he offered me a promotion and I negotiated. He didn't give me any more up front, but I'm now eligible for a year-end bonus. It's the same bonus that other managers in my department get, but if I hadn't asked, you bet I wouldn't have gotten it. The offer letter actually had n/a typed on the "bonus" line.

I wonder where all these shrinking violets are. Among the women who've worked for me, directly and indirectly, I haven't observed any noticeable reluctance to ask for more money, promotions, better titles, etc.

This is the money quote:

women as a whole earn at least a quarter less than what men earn (unless they're city-dwelling, under 30, single and childless, in which case they may earn about 8 percent more than their male counterparts.)

So, if a woman shows up to work on time, doesn't leave early, and does her job effectively, she'll get paid more than men of similar position/backgrounds?

There's a lesson here, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

if it were true that you could get women for 70 cents on the dollar, wouldn't everybody hire women instead of men?

***

Maybe, not necessarily. Depends if they think women would do as good a job, or if they might lose them to SAHM-dom, or other factors.

"My dad always told me I could do whatever I wanted ... He also taught me to be tough and set an example as someone who didn't let people walk all over him."

Grumble .. I'll admit I'm a poor negotiator. I started my own business partly because I got sick of selling myself short salary-wise, now I just find myself selling myself short when doing quotes for customers (underquoting etc., doing lots of free work for customers as 'favors'). It's partly because my dad effectively taught me to practically apologize for my very existence (and that I must always place everyone else's needs above mine all the time), and I'm only slowing starting to unlearn this, badly.

My wife got a decent increase though a while back after I suggested she ask for one ... she didn't seem to think to ask for one until I prompted her to.

Lobster: now I just find myself selling myself short when doing quotes for customers (underquoting etc., doing lots of free work for customers as 'favors')

My grandparents and my best friend's mother were both business owners for well-known companies in their area. I remember BF's mom had a sign posted that essentially said "dear friends and family: we would love to provide services to you free of charge; however, research indicates that our enemies don't do business with us".

I can't find the link, but I recently read that the comparison of the earnings of men and women who do full time work includes all people who work 35 hours a week or more.

This means they are comparing people who are gone like a shot at quitting time with those who work 60 hours a week and take work home on weekends.

This also would not take into account working conditions. Working in a mine or dumping cans in a garbage truck when it is 33° and raining should be paid more than someone doing routine office work.

If you tell me what conclusion you want to reach and give me some data, there's a good chance I can make a case for you.

I admit I'm bad at this, but I always assumed you had to be holding some cards. What do you say? That so-and-so gets more, or you might walk, or you have some new personal obligations (and why should they care), or what?

My boss made it clear he expects me to offer some new value that he's not getting now, and I've been sitting here for years unable to think of anything. Meanwhile my options have pretty well slipped away.

"I admit I'm bad at this, but I always assumed you had to be holding some cards. What do you say? That so-and-so gets more, or you might walk, or you have some new personal obligations (and why should they care)"

I admit I'm also bad at this, but I think most of those are generally bad things to say to a boss if asking for a raise.

If you threaten to walk, your boss might think he'd better start looking for a replacement already 'just in case' ... that wouldn't be good.

If 'so-and-so' in the business is doing basically the same work for more pay, then I think it is a fair point to raise. (My old boss would go ballistic if we did this though, but in hindsight, I should've had more backbone.)

In my wife's case, it was clear to me that he really valued her work, as he had told her so more than once - she always got her work done efficiently ... also it was clear that it would not be entirely easy to find someone new, especially as he was very busy, so he actually depended on her to some extent. (But her boss was also a nice, decent guy, so that helped too.) I wouldn't mention say things like 'it would be difficult to find someone new' because that sounds a bit like blackmail, but I think one should probably reasonably research one's 'fair market value' (e.g. ask yourself, if I shopped around for a new job doing the same thing, what could I expect to ask ... or conversely, if the boss had to shop for someone new, what would he expect to have to pay) and then just say, you would like a raise, you think you are worth such and such, that that is a fair rate. I don't think you should threaten to quit (not unless you have a replacement job lined up), but the boss will be mainly looking at it from the perspective of how costly/difficult it would be to replace you if you left .. e.g. if you're earning X but he would have to pay someone new something higher than X, then there is basis for a raise. If your replacement's salary would be the same as yours then you're probably close to market value.

That's my 2c as someone who always undersells themselves :/ ... but I think it helps that I've been a boss now for a while, so I have slightly more of an idea how bosses look at things.

Google 'tips for asking for a raise', you'll probably get better advice.

"or you have some new personal obligations (and why should they care)"

Your instinct is right, 'why should they care', though it sounds cold. I must admit if an employee asks me for a raise by explaining that they have 'new personal obligations' what my ear hears is 'I can't manage my personal finances, have taken on obligations I can't afford, and now I need to beg you for help' ... it sends the wrong message on many levels. It makes you sound like someone who can't manage finances (even if it's not true), adn that's exactly the opposite of what businesses need .. if you can't manage your finances your boss will be thinking you can't really handle more responsibility at the company either ... and also it makes you sound like you'll regularly be asking for help to sort out personal problems (I had an employee who was like that, and I did help her a few times with e.g. personal loans (some of which weren't paid back), until I literally couldn't help anymore).

"I've been sitting here for years unable to think of anything"

Sorry, two quick more points:

1. Instead of you trying to come up with something, try actually ask your boss now and again if there's anything specific he has that he can please try give you to do - explain that you'd like to learn new things and take on more responsibility to assist him. Depending on the timing, he might have something on his desk he might say, OK, let's try delegate this, or whatever. Then do your best to do well at that thing, and then make a note to mention/remind him of any extra you've done or are doing.

2. Bosses are usually busy people and what they really like is anything that saves them a bit of time.

Amy: Also, per the oft-tossed-around adage, if it were true that you could get women for 70 cents on the dollar, wouldn't everybody hire women instead of men?

Steamer: I can't find the link, but I recently read that the comparison of the earnings of men and women who do full time work includes all people who work 35 hours a week or more.

My understanding is that the 70 cents on the dollar figure comes from comparing the median wage of all men to the median wage of all women. Not sure whether that includes only full-time workers or all workers. But, if that's the case, there are factors other than discrimination that account for the "gender gap." This is not to say that none of the gap is the result of discrimination, but all of it isn't due to discrimination, and perhaps even most of it isn't.

and also it makes you sound like you'll regularly be asking for help to sort out personal problems (I had an employee who was like that, and I did help her a few times with e.g. personal loans (some of which weren't paid back), until I literally couldn't help anymore). -- Lobster at November 9, 2012 2:18 PM

I have on very rare occasion (probably less than 20 in 20 years) asked a co-worker (usually at least a work friend) to borrow $20 to payday or to cover an unexpected business lunch/going away party. And I paid them back the next payday.

I would never ask a manager. I have done payday loans and such. But that never involved the employer.

Well, maybe the business are factoring in risk that the women will get pregnant or go SAHM or what have you.

I only know one person who has said they have successfully negotiated for higher salary or a different title. He worked at several restaurants and they seemed to open to that. I had an offer withdrawn by one company.

The bank I worked for took a very hardline on the matter. If you asked for more, well then clearly you weren't loyal so if you weren't let go immediately you should expect to be soon if you didn't leave on your own account.

I wonder if being able to negotiate is a function or the job or location or what.

Every job I've ever held has had a set payscale that was based on years of experience so there was a definite liw and high wage, as well as set amounts in between. Once a year was a small COA increase, usually in the fall (not everywhere had one) and on the anniversary of your hire date you'd move up a tenure step for experience, which got you another small raise. The position tops out at a certain wage. There has never really been anything for me to negotiate based on this. However, I was able to successfully negotiate myself into a higher position than the one I'd applied for during my interview. I mentioned my other skills above what they wanted and said I would also be interested in opportunities to advance if they came up. They tested me on those skills and hired me into the higher classification.

Unless you work for the federal or state gov't, where jobs are measured by various yardsticks--you can negotiate anything. Money, vacation, work hours, and all the rest. Sure, it's not easy and you have to be pretty confident in your own abilities and be ready to walk away, but you can almost always get more than you're offered. I'm a freelancer and while I almost never turn down work, I don't leap at the bait on the hook. If the production can't pay my day rate, I offer to do 1/2 the work and let someone cheaper do the easier stuff, (pick the lowhanging fruit, I call it.)
Years of experience might be one measure, but that can also mean that the job candidate doesn't have any innovative skills or ideas, and can just do 1 thing over and over again. YMMV.