Paging Sheriff Andy: Punishment For Juvenile Delinquents
Where do you stand? Are you for Andy Griffith-style policing (a good talking-to and maybe some chores) or going by the letter of the law and putting teens who, say, vandalize property, into the system?
Very interesting post on this subject by law blogger Scott Greenfield on a vandalized mailbox, four teens in a yellow sports car fitting the description of the vandalizing vehicle, and cops who decided to reprimand the teens by having them do a dozen pushups and sending them on their way.
No cuffs. No tasers. No criminal records. And for this, the community built them a statue, right? Not exactly.
An internal investigation has been ordered.
Clearly, the cops acted as judge, jury and executioner, conceptually a position that most are disinclined to relegate to the police. As Chief Martellini ponders whether this was "professional" behavior, he asks the wrong question. It wasn't. Professional behavior would have compelled the officers to arrest the youths and turn the matter over to prosecutors, ultimately resulting in a determination of guilt or innocence, and if the former, a life saddled with a criminal conviction. Now that would have been the way a "professional" cop behaves.Instead, they did what a cop would have done a few generations ago, when the idea of hanging a criminal record on every stupid kid would have been considered absurd and outrageous by pretty much everyone, cops included.
Scott also points out that they should have been made to pay to repair the mailbox. And then, he writes:
On the one hand, putting the handling of punishment in the discretionary hands of cops doesn't strike many as a good idea. There have been far, far too many times when police have demonstrated that they so utterly lack the judgment and discretion to control vicious urges, violent tempers and the knee-jerk resort to the weapons of their trade, to ever willingly go down the road to Mayberry. Especially when it comes to children.Yet, in this instance, what happened was clearly the best outcome for all involved. The alternative of prosecution and potential criminal record would have ruined lives over a stupid, juvenile act. The boys needed to learn they can't destroy things, that vandalism isn't fun or cool. But once the lesson was learned, they similarly need the chance to grow up and lead productive lives, unencumbered by the yoke of the criminal justice system.
Let's come to grips with reality here: no child is better off for having become embroiled in the system. Some may have engaged in conduct sufficiently serious that it can't be avoided, but they are no better for it. When the offense is more prank than crime, and can be effectively dealt with by a good metaphoric spanking, we are all better off.
Agree? Disagree?
My daughter has spent some time working at bars and also quasi social agencies like Goodwill.
I am all for dealing with minor and victimless crimes with non judicial punishment.
I have seen too many minor substance abusers, and petty scofflaws get caught up in the criminal justice system where they end up in and out of jail for parole violations. The original crime was a misdameanor or small time drug dealing.
These irresponsible but mostly harmless flakes go in and out of jail. Because of this, they can't hold a long term job, and eventually end up on public assistance with their children.
Creating a large dependent class out of petty criminals, with nothing more serious than dwi, or drug posession hurts both the individuals and the tax payers.
It is another unintended consequence of over charging and relentlessly prosecuting or plea bargaining petty crimes that would have gotten no more than a small fine 30 years ago.
Isab at December 1, 2012 11:50 PM
A great problem with our government-obsessed culture is that people are counting on government to perform all the intimate domestic functions of fatherhood and masculinity anyway.
It doesn't work.
And ours is no longer an Andy Griffith culture. It's unfair to ask the average cop on the beat to be Officer Friendly, a loving uncle and a thoughtful high school coach all wrapped into one...
Especially when cops themselves aren't any more likely to have had a loving father in the home throughout childhood.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 12:07 AM
Crid said: A great problem with our government-obsessed culture is that people are counting on government to perform all the intimate domestic functions of fatherhood and masculinity anyway.
I think a greater problem is that people are counting on fathers to perform all the intimate domestic functions of fatherhood and masculinity, like they're supposed to do, and a lot of 'em are doing a piss-poor job.
Greenfield said: Yet, in this instance, what happened was clearly the best outcome for all involved.
Except for the lady whose property was destroyed, who disappeared from the story.
The boys needed to learn they can't destroy things, that vandalism isn't fun or cool.
Fun or cool, my foot. They needed to learn that vandalism is AGAINST THE LAW, neither fun or unfun, cool or uncool, and that laws have consequences.
Thanks to Deputy Dawg, they learned squat.
And I'm still waiting to hear what happened to the lady and her mailbox.
Kevin at December 2, 2012 12:33 AM
Recently read "Arrest Proof Yourself" by Dale Carson. In it he comments often on people avoid the ""electronic plantation". Basically once someone is in the system, peoples live get very difficult. He gives a couple examples of where people have stalled career or ruined life because of being in the system. Actually I know many stories of American people who have had to leave South Korea because of the electronic chains from back home.
I think the police officers actions was a good start. Through I do think what saved the boys was well their actions. If they got all aggressive or rude, I bet things would have gotten very differently. Sounds like the police officer made a judgment call. Which is need more the often.
Yet will not happen. One the US is a lawfare country. People and governments that love to use the law to solve all problems. Neighbor too noisy, lets call the cops on them. City budget a bit low this year, lets enforce some of those laws.
The modern global Internet community which provides a multitude of people who will pick apart your actions. Rather then risking their jobs police will go by the book, because it is safer. Once the kids are back at the police station, they become someone else problem. Plus the lawyers and bureaucrats do not want to lose their power to some police officers.
Here is a thought exercise... Recently a cop was in the news for giving some shoes to a shoeless homeless man. Nice gesture, probably the best think to do. Yet, the " RIGHT " think to do is to rouse the man and tell him to get off the street and move on. If he has no shoes, not police officers problem.
Plus, I would have punished a whole lot harder the teen vandals. 12 pushups is nothing. I would had the kids run laps around the block. The kids need to be sweating and breathing hard. Even better would have been the kids have to go back and clean/fix the damage they did. Plus apologize. And to boot I would have taken the kids car for a week and made them walk home.
I actually suspect what happened here is the person who reported the damage did not feel they received enough vindication. Probably made a complaint and police officer is now (in a little trouble).
John Paulson at December 2, 2012 2:01 AM
Specifically, Kevin, individuals will always disappoint us; growing up should teach us how to deal with that. Sensible and demanding women will look the natural world (including human nature) straight in the eye, plainly recognize the hazards and probabilities, and decide to raise families anyway. Women are supposed apply their judgment to select the best men, encouraging them to be better. Government policy encourages women to be oblivious and distracted, promising that their burden can be ignored. The results are criminally hurtful.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 5:26 AM
> a greater problem is that people are
> counting on fathers to perform all
> the intimate domestic functions
I think Kevin is too cynical— He's spinning out at the hairpin.
(Note shaking fist in first photo... I love that.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 5:28 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/12/punishment-for.html#comment-3498199">comment from John PaulsonLink to Arrest-Proof Yourself.
Amy Alkon at December 2, 2012 6:08 AM
The problem is that allowing cops to play roles like this leads to officer and "gentleman" like Daniel Harless that says things like "I should pull my Glock and blow your fucking head off you motherfucker."
Once you get rid of those cops I might be comfortable with other cops doing non-judicial punishment.
Jim P. at December 2, 2012 6:39 AM
Ah, but the law will interfere with how the family raises the children. My vote is no. Not because it's the right answer, but because the only way the system will change is when it has been seen to have irretrievably failed. That single motherhood bit isn't working too well, but why let reality interfere with someone's feelings?
Judging by the war on drugs, I won't live to see anything change. At least, not for the better.
It's more likely we'll see teens implanted with RFID tags so we'll know where they are. It's for their own good.
MarD at December 2, 2012 6:53 AM
Still thinking about it... Kevin was just commenting casually, but I don't think he realized that he'd drifted off to the Dark Side of the Force, encouraging precisely the government response he knows to be so hurtful.
We like to think that we're basically living in a climate of virtue in which a few things might have gone wrong but simple solutions can be applied for little cost. It's not true. The term "juvenile delinquent" includes some truly murderous behavior... Stuff that nobody knows how to fix, certainly not the cop on the street.
In other news: We know that Amy has her own list of most-attractive science women, but I'd say that Bassler has no contenders.
Because, Da-yum.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 6:55 AM
Goofed the link: Bassler.
(Note the unnecessary comma in the YouTube title. Time to say it: America has a problem.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 6:58 AM
> It's more likely we'll see teens implanted
> with RFID tags
Done.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 7:04 AM
Sometimes things backfire and then backfire again.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2012 7:06 AM
Absolutely agree.
I think that instead of just push ups, they should have been taken around to face the families they affected and offer to mow their lawn for free, or fix their mailbox (if it wasn't fixed already), or work off the cost for a new mailbox if the family wanted them to pay for it.
Jess at December 2, 2012 9:06 AM
I moved back to the town I grew up in and many of the guys I hung out with in the woods drinking underage are now cops in the local precinct chasing kids in those same woods for drinking and smoking pot. Things haven't changed much except that if I would have gotten caught with Daddy's six pack, the cop would have taken the six and brought me home. Now the cops take the six, mark it as evidence and someone gets to sue Daddy under a social host law and little Johnny gets a probation officer.
Kristen at December 2, 2012 9:25 AM
I'll admit that I hold BOTH opinions on this.
If it was my kid or someone's kid that I know, let the local cop and parents handle it. (my kid would be damn lucky if the local cop handled it instead of me)
But, if it was my property being damaged then string the little bastard up! (ask the crime victim if they see it as a "prank"? What a load of bleeding-heart liberal crap to call it a prank!)
I can see why so many folks are wishy-washy on this.
If I had done something like this - then facing the court system might have been better than what my parents (note that is plural) would have done to me. (nothing violent; but boy, would I have had to "make things right" - doing chores for my victim for a long, long, long time)
But, too many "parents" today think that their kid is just hanging out with the wrong crowd. They don't want to admit that their kid IS the wrong crowd. I think that is why so many crime-victim folks today prefer to go through the court system. The parents and the local cops don't do shit to improve things.
This nonsense of don't give little Johnny a criminal record it will hurt him is crap - Maybe little Johnny deserves that criminal record so the rest of us know what kind of little shit he really is.
I'm with Kevin on this - what about the crime victim? Doesn't she count? That, we all know, is a rhetorical question. Victimless crime is often NOT victimless except in the minds of liberals.
Yes, I guess it really shows that I have been a victim of crimes. Some of which the local cops treated as a "prank." Sorry, but, I had to pay for the new car windshield - where the f*ck was little Johhny and his parent(s) when I had to pay for his "pranks"? Why should I have to fork out a couple of hundred dollars because little johnny thinks it is funny to throw rocks at cars in the parking lot? Did it help his "self-esteem" to NOT have to pay for my new windshield?
For those of you who want to "forgive" your criminal, I would say you have that right; But, let me also have to right to fully prosecute the little bastard who did something to me or my property!
Charles at December 2, 2012 11:33 AM
I don't know about this one. On the one hand, these kids didn't do anything that hasn't been done before, but they did destroy someone's property. I don't see how the pushups make her whole. I guess she would need to go after them in civil court to get restitution, which is better than having them in criminal court.
However, we just had a similar situation in my area where 4 teens (two girls and two boys) made a hit list and went through seven neighborhoods destroying car windows and living room windows for fun and revenge. They did $13,000 worth of damage and have been arrested. So, where is the cutoff? Is it $100, $1,000 or $10,000? I think this why the law is the law. It really isn't right for the cops to decide who the law is applied to and who it isn't. That is why we have a legal system in the first place.
From what I understand, the kids who did the $13,000 in damage will be charged, but will most likely not see the inside of a jail cell. They will have to plea it down and it will be on their record, but maybe they can move past it. Who knows?
They damaged my friend's daughter's car for no other reason than she had a high school parking sticker in the window. My friend is on a tight budget and now has to get an expensive repair to a window. So I don't feel too sorry for them right now.
sheepmommy at December 2, 2012 11:44 AM
I should clarify that last statement and say that I don't feel sorry for those kids. They knew what they were doing and thought they would get away with it. They didn't count on someone having a camera aimed at the street. For the record, the girls were two popular students at our biggest high school. One is a cheerleader and the other is on the drill team. These are kids who know better, but didn't give a rat's ass about the damage they were causing. I don't know about the boys bc they go to a rival high school across town, but I imagine they too are in the popular crowd at their school.
sheepmommy at December 2, 2012 11:51 AM
I personally see the courts as a last choice, if the responsible patries can't come to a reasonable conclusion, not as a first and only choice. So,I'm all for things not being dragged through courts.
But I think a better solution would have been: Drag the kids back to the property owners house, along with the parents and the cop suggest 2 ways, either a resolution that makes him + the property owner happy or we do it the court way.
If all parties agree it's fair. (parent's get a say, kids don't). The cop is there to make suggestions, as official witness or lastly if they can't agree or if later somone renegs, then courts are involved. However, the cop does not become judge, jury, and executioner, too much power for one person.
As to what this punishment was, I'm iffy at that, I think this was lite, and did nothing for the property owner. Replacing mailbox and spending Saturday doing chores for the property owner, sounds fair to me. This way kid isn't in system officially, but cop knows who is likely culprit if similar crime happens again.
Like any system it can be abused, but it gives more options for minor crimes and first timers.
Joe J at December 2, 2012 3:00 PM
I can agree if the assaulted or offended party is included in the decision as long as it's not an eye for an eye justice.
The problem is that you have examples of justice from police that include Rodney King, and many other to the point the DOJ has a "Police Misconduct Provision". Do you expect me to trust them?
Jim P. at December 2, 2012 5:40 PM
Wow, you guys are missing something huge.
Police already exercise discretion to an extent you cannot see.
I know for a fact that a "status quo" is maintained in at least two counties by officer discretion. Potheads are given breaks if their situation is improving vs. crack and other heavier drug deals, etc.
A professional, whether on the side of the law or not, knows all the players. There isn't room for all the users and dealers in jail, and it's getting worse.
It's also naîve to think that everyone is equal under the law when the Sheriff and his lieutenants know who's who locally.
Radwaste at December 2, 2012 6:26 PM
I think crimes not involving physical harm should be dealt with via restitution and no criminal record for anything under a certian amount.
Cant pay, send em off to a work farm, or garnish their pay check to pay it off fairly quickly, or allow the victim to take their stuff at pawn store trade in prices.
Little Johnny wont want to bash out window when theres a chance he lose his property as opposed to doing community service on weekends for a moth
lujlp at December 2, 2012 8:37 PM
I hear what you are saying Lujlp; but, there is one problem, little Johnny doesn't own property - he most likely stole it from someone else. What does he care if it is taken away - he'll just steal more. As for being sent away to a work farm or whatever. Thugs like little Johnny see that as "education." They'll do their time and be back to their old tricks in no time, but, with better skills.
Charles at December 2, 2012 8:53 PM
Disagree. A reprimand would have been appropriate if the crime was A) victimless, B) accidental/inadvertent, or C) committed by someone too young to know better. None of that applies here. These kids didn't jaywalk or forget their seatbelt; they willfully willfully vandalized someone's property and walked away with less of a punishment than my high school track team used to get if we were caught walking during practice (we did 20 pushups). How is that fair?
And surely there's a middle ground between throwing a teenager into juvie and making them do a couple pushups. How about handcuffing them, throwing them in the back of the cop car, and taking them down to the station for their parents to pick up? Ordering them to make reparations and suspending their licenses for a few weeks wouldn't go amiss either. None of this would go on their records or ruin their lives but I bet it would make them think twice the next time they were tempted to destroy private property.
Shannon at December 2, 2012 9:02 PM
@Charles
Then what do you suggest?
Sure there will always be some that are hardened, or any one type of punishment won't work with, or may make worse. It is also a question of correcting behavior early, before they become career or so hardened. I know with me, getting a record for almost anything is more a deterent than jail time. However, once I were to have a record of any kind it becomes meaningless if it is for something minor or a half dozen major things. But kids when they get a record don't think about the long term damage so it isn't a deterent to them.
Joe J at December 2, 2012 10:27 PM
As to the kids that made a hit list and commented planned acts of destruction.... No easy out for them. That is a too much. That is much different then 4 hormonal teens out and about and do something stupid with mailboxes. Planning and executing a plan, no.
One thing, I think that would help at times is what I have seen in South Korea. Sometimes for traffic offenses and even other crimes people try to work with a "blood money" system. It allows people to avoid getting criminal records and dealing with the legal system. So if someone gets in a fight. The other person is hurt. The instigator could avoid troubles, by paying for any hospital costs and well pain and suffering. Even the police work with this, they will usually allow people to settle things, before taking someone in. There are some downsides as some people scam or people get away with some heinous crimes with just paying some money.
For those that care...
http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2011/04/what-is-all-this-about-blood-money.html
Another alternative is tribal law. For some Indian bands in Canada, some criminals charges are dealt in house/tribe. Elders judge and choose the punishment. So maybe police can become a sort of mediator.
John Paulson at December 2, 2012 10:50 PM
It sounds like the parents wanted their kids referred to the Postal Inspection Service for the filing of federal criminal charges against their kids.
ParatrooperJJ at December 3, 2012 7:28 AM
"I think a greater problem is that people are counting on fathers to perform all the intimate domestic functions of fatherhood and masculinity, like they're supposed to do, and a lot of 'em are doing a piss-poor job."
More to the point, a lot of them are simply not there, by choice of one spouse or the other, and as encouraged by government policy. Further, the ones who are there have far less authority, in many cases too little to be effective. If I had been an adult back in my father's day, and I had come across these hoodlums, I would have detained them myself, gotten their names, and contacted the parents. If I try that trick today, I'm in jail for kidnapping and probably sexual assault, and the parents are lining up to sue me.
Last week, a hoodlum was arrested for vandalizing a cemetary in my area; he was caught red-handed and is suspected of having vandalized the same cemetary before, as well as several others. When they showed his picture on TV, I recognized him as the same snot-nosed punk who ran me off the road on a main street in town a few years ago. (It was raining and he made a right turn from the left lane. I had to drive up over a curb and into grass; if my car had not had ABS, I would have wound up on my side in a ditch.) His parents are big fish in the small pond of a rural town one county over. He's been getting away with stuff in that town for years because the police there know not to mess with him. But he made the mistake of going out of town to get his jollies, and now he's in the adult criminal system, which is probably his life's destination. Some fathering years ago might have prevented this, but his own father couldn't or wouldn't do it, and post-modern society ensured that no other man had anything to say about it.
Cousin Dave at December 3, 2012 9:11 AM
When I was in high school (late 80s) some guys from my school decided to play a little mailbox baseball and destroyed several including ours. They weren't put into the system, they were made to go apologize to everyone who's mailbox they hit and pay for a new one and install it. The embarrassment and shame on their face as they told my parents they were sorry was priceless. I feel confident that they learned never to do that again.
Fink-Nottle at December 3, 2012 10:10 AM
My husband and I strongly believe that shame is an effective, yet severely under utilized teaching tool. We always half-jokingly say we will raise our kids with fear and respect.
"They will respect us because they will fear what we will do to them if they don't."
Apprently, with this post modern "yes" parenting though, shame is not good for a childs "self-esteem". I call bullshit on that.
Shame is a learned emotion. When one committs a shameful act, one should be made to feel ashamed of it. When you feel ashamed of yourself, you're more apt to change your behaviour to avoid that feeling again. Shame can help create feelings of empathy as well, which I think, and Amy herself has mentioned on this very blog, is key when rearing children. I know a few parents who are very much the "sandwich board on the street corner" kind (the ones who make their kids apologize or make some sort of restitution to the person who they've harmed, for example) and I also know just as many parents who wouldn't dream of hurting juniors feelings that way. The latter, well, let's just say their kids aren't exactly the shining example of our future.
Most parents just don't understand how to use shame properly. There is a difference between making a child (old enough to understand right and wrong) feel ashamed about their behaviour and then the child changing said behaviour, and humiliating the child needlessly. Basically, the punishment should fit the crime.
If my child damages a neighbors mailbox, they would be required to go apologize in person, be made to replace/repair the mailbox, and if they can't afford that they'd be made to work off their debt in the manner the neighbor sees fit. If the cops were to get involved, that's something that would have to also be dealt with.
I do have to agree, however that the affected party should have a say in the agreement, within reason though. It's one thing if you have good neighborly relationships, and the neighbor is willing to work with you making it right. It's much different if the neighbor is very much the "call the police" about every little thing type.
Sabrina at December 4, 2012 5:55 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/12/punishment-for.html#comment-3501840">comment from SabrinaIf my child damages a neighbors mailbox, they would be required to go apologize in person, be made to replace/repair the mailbox, and if they can't afford that they'd be made to work off their debt in the manner the neighbor sees fit.
This would have been my parents' approach.
Amy Alkon at December 4, 2012 7:10 AM
I like the story of the guy who built a sheet metal mailbox after his was busted a number of times. And the next time the truckful of baseball bat wielding teens came by he still had his mail box and the teen had to have his entire arm reconstructed
lujlp at December 4, 2012 11:32 AM
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