Yeah, but like, we were sending BILLIONS each year during the Mubarak regime, and no one doubted that it went straight into his accounts. This has always been a shabby payoff. We're a rich country and they're a poor one, and that's kind of how it goes.

I'm not saying you're wrong.

Because you're not wrong, you're right.

But if you look at this stuff too closely, you'll lose your mind.

Mostly-Offtopic!— Anyone in the mood for some chill music, which is the name that middle-aged rock-n-rollers give to easy listening when they don't want to seem old? Here, try this & this!

Seriously. Yagotta chillout. Because there's no way to shock Egypt into anything we'd recognize as decent modernity.

$450 mill ain't that large, considering.

(The second tune includes Quincy Jones samples.)

$450 mill ain't that large, considering.

True. But only if you get something for it. The previous billions of aid sent to the Mubarak regime were essentially payola for sticking to the peace treaty with Israel. Ok, we can all argue about whether that was a good or bad idea, but the point is he delivered. It was dressed up as aid, but the terms were very clear. No funny business, or the money tree dies.

In this case, it's money up front with no fucking idea what they expect to get in return. Not at all the same. Does anyone think Morsi's government will change one little bit of their behaviour because of this?

I thought you were Canadian.

You're confusing me with someone else (I can't remember who exactly). I'm the Australian.

Hence my "we" means "us commenters", not "us United States citizens".

Ltw, that's the weird thing, isn't it? There's not even a pretense of a purpose anymore. We're giving them money because, well, that's what we've always done, so we keep doing it. It's not like we're paying them off for resisting radical Islam, because they aren't. Maybe the White House thinks that payola will discourage Egypt from attacking Israel, but I don't think Egypt has the means to do that anyway. (Unless they agree to let the Siani become a site for Iranian missile launchers, but if there's any clue that that is starting to happen, Israel will bomb them preemptively.)

> Hence my "we" means "us commenters", not
> "us United States citizens".

It's been my experience here that commenters from other nations are almost never explicit about their citizenship... Until it's pointed out for all to see.

Usually, they just roll through their comments with an implicit affirmation that we're all in this together…

…When actually, we're not.

We're like the loser at the bar by himself, buying everyone drinks so they'll like him, then he goes home alone and laments his negative bank account balance.

That is exactly the point Dave. No one liked Mubarak, but don't underestimate the Egyptians - Egypt has the most powerful Arab military in the region and it was expedient to buy them off. With them out of the game, the other Arab countries couldn't contemplate another direct attack on Israel. Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon aren't even a close match by comparison. If it weren't for the huge success of the pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian air force at the start of the Six DAy War, things might have worked out very differently. So all this made sense for 30-40 years. There was a good reason once. Now? Not so much. You're right about that. Bureaucratic inertia.

And the historical reason for supporting the Mubarak regime really did have nothing to do with resisting radical Islam.

And they'll never allow basing for Iranian launchers in the Sinai. Gaza is closer and all Egypt has to do is wink and nod at smuggling in the arms. That's what the Gazans (and Hezbollah) are for.

> we can all argue about whether that was
> a good or bad idea

Well, yes, but let's not forget whose money was under discussion.

It's been my experience here that commenters from other nations are almost never explicit about their citizenship... Until it's pointed out for all to see.

You either can't read or you have exceptionally poor memory Crid. I've identified myself as Australian many times, often in commenting on government policy in "compare and contrast" mode. I thought everyone knew that. I'm not claiming we do everything right, but we started fixing the problems you're facing now 30 years ago. Maybe you've read my repeated stories about how to fix SS? No? Didn't think so.

I'll present my papers next time and ask your permission to comment - as a non-citizen.

> I thought everyone knew that.

Nope. No one's taking notes on who's who, and this seems to be one of the things that foreign commenters enjoy about the United States... Which heightens the pathos of the comments. Over here, people are by-and-large admired for what they bring to the table... At least as they're realistic about it. But people are so desperate to be part of The Miracle....

> I'll present my papers next time and ask your
> permission to comment - as a non-citizen.

Oh, that's turdly. Go ahead, Honey, say ANYTHING to pretend you're not ashamed of your nation.

Have you got anything on topic to say? Nope. So fuck off.

But that's the thing, Buttercup.. It's not your topic. You're just a rhetorical tourist, a gossip.

See also this thread: "Topic police have no authority."

The petty but fervid desperation of foreigners to engage in adult conversation at the adult table (United States) is a big part of the problem... In Egypt and elsewhere.

Rule: Pay American taxes, we'll take you American seriously.

Everything else is flapping gums.

exceptionally poor memory Crid
Crid's in California, he doesn't need a memory. By default, he's better than you.

Off topic, but kinda in the same vein, I think this is interesting:
Should the U.S. pull out of Chicago?
Body count: In the last six months, 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago compared to 221 killed in Iraq, and Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the entire US.
President: Barack Obama (former junior senator from Illinois)
Senator: Dick Durbin
Congressman: Jesse Jackson Jr.
Governor: Pat Quinn
House leader: Mike Madigan
Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike)
Mayor: Rahm Emanuel
The leadership in Illinois - all Democrats.
Thank you for the combat zone in Chicago.
Of course, they're all blaming each other. Can’t blame Republicans; there aren't any.
Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the country. Can’t blame Republicans; there aren't any.
State pension fund $78 Billion in debt, worst in country. Can’t blame Republicans; there aren't any.
Cook County (Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country. Can’t blame Republicans; there aren't any!
This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois.
And he is going to “fix” Washington politics for us. Ah, yeah.
George Ryan is no longer governor; he is in the big house. Of course he was replaced by Rod Blagojevich who is...that's right, also in the big house. And Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. resigned recently. That’s because he is fighting being sent to…right again, the big house.

So as the government is failing miserably right here, how else can we explain the miserable failures over there, where we have even LESS control of what goes on and how money is spent?

Oh yes, I'm *dying* to come to your country. Here in my dirt shack with kangaroos hopping around outside. Please let me emigrate to a country with $16 trillion in debt. I'm so ashamed of my own.

When you've got something to be proud of, get back to me.

Crid's in California, he doesn't need a memory. By default, he's better than you.

I didn't know that. Explains a lot. The brokest state in the brokest nation in the world. No wonder he has such a thing against foreigners. It's a daily insult that we didn't fuck up our economy the way you did isn't it?

at the adult table (United States)

Not showing much sign of that lately Snookums. I feel quite qualified to comment.

> Please let me emigrate to a country with
> $16 trillion in debt. I'm so ashamed of my own.

Sure. You're totally up-to-date on our internal affairs.

But I'm guessing you could not, without looking it up using (America's) Google™ search 'engine', tell how us how much foreign aid Australia sends to Egypt, the pattern of that aid over the last twenty years, or even whether you send any aid at all.

I mean, we certainly wouldn't know. I mean, seriously, who gives a fuck? Right?... IJS.

You're commenting here for a reason, and that reason doesn't flatter you. You shouldn't work too hard at being an asshole, OK? You were closer than we'd like from the first comment.

Yes. I'm commenting here for a reason. I like Amy's site. "And who's this we, white man", to quote Tonto. Find a couple of other people to say I'm an asshole and perhaps I'll believe you. I'll bet I can find more than you.

> I like Amy's site.

And you love her nation. You love it more than your own. You love it so much that sometimes, preparing for bed with a warm glass of milk, you log in here and pretend to be part of it for an indulgent moment or two. ('I'm so well-informed, I too could be an American!'. ) It's thrilling to rub digital elbows with the most vital people on the globe as we spring proudly into our bold American mornings, even while you descend listlessly into another dreamless antipodal slumber.

No, seriously, we're flattered. We are. It's just hard to be concerned with your thoughts about our foreign aid, thassall.

Again, Elty, Australia sends how much to Egypt every year?

> There's not even a pretense of a
> purpose anymore.

I see what you're getting at, but phrasing it that way encourages the presumption that it's all graft.... That we want something very specific for the money.

What we really want it for them to be more connected to the global economy, to GROW better connections, and that's not happening. This money doesn't help.

But it's also the case that a nation as rich as ours needs to share its good fortune with the impoverished. If this wealth were being righteously distributed throughout the Egyptian society, we could be glad we sent it.

But of course, it's not.

Well, the Aussie government give some, Cridmo:

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/Pages/home.aspx

I know Angel, I'm just saying... You had to look it up. For the United States, Elty didn't.

Flynne's link: $41 Million (presumably AUS) for the entire Middle East. Also…

• encouraging the creation of more than 5 000 jobs in Egypt;

…Whatever that means.

Years ago, I once "encouraged" over a million new high-paying jobs in the southeastern United States.

For some reason, nobody was impressed.

OOOOoooooooo! It's ON, Bay-bee!

We're like the loser at the bar by himself, buying everyone drinks so they'll like him, then he goes home alone and laments his negative bank account balance.

I'd prefer to be respected. Barring that, then I'll settle for being feared. And that our so-called leadership does stuff that doesn't build either respect or fear.

I don't mind sending food and other critical aid to other countries in their hours of need. What I do mind is them cursing us while their mouths are still chewing on the food that we gave them.

The vast majority of Egyptians will never see a dime of that money, and would nonetheless be enraged if it were not forthcoming. Nonetheless, we needn't be feared by Egyptians. They're no threat to us.

IJS, foreign aid is always between a rock and a hard place... For both ethical and practical considerations.

Should the U.S. pull out of Chicago?
I love you, Flynne.

Feelin' heartbroke about those two nonethelesses back to back like that. Y'know... Busy over here.

What we need to do is have Morsi sign the Re-sign the Camp David Accords before giving them a dime. If they won't we should be giving the money to Israel, including the amount that used to be given to Egypt.

You're hilarious Cridmeister. But not in a good way. Try typing with two hands - it might make more sense.

Jim P, interesting point. It's common enough for revolutionary governments to claim they aren't bound by the previous regimes's commitments (usually when repudiating contracts and nationalising industries, but it's somewhat accepted). So has Morsi's government made any commitments with regards to the peace treaty with Israel? Perhaps they should be asked to re-sign it.

I see what you're getting at, but phrasing it that way encourages the presumption that it's all graft.... That we want something very specific for the money.

I phrased it that way for a reason - it's true. You may not like it or believe it, but it really was cash for peace.

How much do we give? I don't give a fuck. I hope it wasn't much - I don't think they should get anything. Your choice to spread the wealth around, sweetheart.

Finish your milk, and then the Sandman.

LTW: i'll assume that by "we" and "our money" you meant we civilized people giving real civilized money to the barbarians. Oz is mostly civilized, certain urban enclaves excepted (uncovered meat and all that.)

I'm not sure what you're getting at Storm. Your quote of me "our money" appears to be made up. I haven't said it. You can assume anything you like.

Saxy!

✔

"When you've got something to be proud of, get back to me."

I suppose the Battle of the Coral Sea would be a good place to start.

Goggers!

✔