Is this guy brain damaged?

Occasionally saying "Because I'm your father, that's why," is not wrong.

I get the needing to get up early thing and why it makes it so hard. I think the solution for them is to take a week-long staycation and do it then. It will be easier to go sleepless a couple nights if they know they can sleep in, or at least don't have to go to work the next day.

If they want to do a gentler transition, they can do things like sit by his bed until he falls asleep. They could try a mattress on the floor of their room for a transition (Dr Sears recommends this for toddlers transitioning from co-sleeping). They could even have a mattress in his room and lie in it until he falls asleep, which would be an improvement over the current situation. They can also look into things like nightlights that will make it more cozy for him.

There are lots of options, it isn't just limited to "keep him in bed", or "cold turkey".

They need to talk to the parents of other co-sleepers and explore their options.

Wow. An 8-year-old ruling the roost. This father better get his shit together and get that kid in his OWN bed, pronto. Else this will not end well.

I wonder what other shit the 8-year-old gets away with. Because, you know, he most certainly DOES.

Are these even his children? How does a man with demonstrably no balls father two kids?

I have at least one kid in my bed every night. They aren't young for long in the scheme of things, so hubby and I are fine with it. It does not hamper our sex life. We have locking bathrooms, and a back porch, and a pantry, and bedrooms upstairs.

So it's only an issue if it's an issue for them, and if it is they need to put an end to it. I would use a reward system, personally. Since they've let it go so long, just simply saying no one night isn't fair to the kid.

"Our son's refusal to sleep in his own bed is something that makes us feel inadequate as parents."

Maybe there's some hope, there is some recognition of reality. Inadequate parenting, yeah I'd say so.

"And it is something that makes me, as the father, feel small and impotent...I should take care of the situation...But I don't."

Another beta male realizes his predicament, yet does...nothing. I think I spoke too soon about that hope...

*Pathetic. We had to mow the lawn. I can just see telling my dad, "Naw, I think I'll stay inside and read a book."*

Oh, that brings back memories of my saying that exact thing to my Dad. I never did it again. Dad was an effective parent and I learned from him.

I have to wonder at how much longer the boy will WANT to sleep with his mom. I'd think he'd start feeling weird about it soon.

um, yeah, what's the MOTHER'S take on this. it take two to tango as they say, and a united front to make it all work...

If you say no, and the kid says: "I'll just go ask mom, I know she'll let me..." this is where the problem lies, FOR EITHER PARENT.

You have to be consistent, you have to be INFLEXIBLE.

The lack of fairness to the kid COMPOUNDS DAILY, so it's better to stop it right now than let it go on another day.

Lock him in his room if you have to... [reverse the door lock, so that it lock on the outside] and anticipate that it will be a week or month of hell. Which would be your penance for being stupid.

Believe me when I say that this problem will get worse and worse, till the kid is bigger'n you, and decided to steal your car, get drunk and wreck it.
That's IF he lives.

It ain't easy, and even if you do it all the best you can, the kid will still mess up, just like you...

Bribery works great.

Big boys sleep in their own beds. Big boys get to get X reward after a week/month of sleeping in their own bed. Here is a big calendar. Let's start marking off the days together.

Sheesh.

Aww, does da poor widdle man have to get up early? Gee, no wonder he lets the boy have his way. Can't go without sleep for a day or two! What an effin' wimp. I used to go for weeks at a time on 4 to 5 hours sleep a night if I was lucky. Sheesh, yeah, you'll be a bit groggy, but that's what coffee is for.
Dude seriously needs to grow a pair.

Fuck that shit.

Don't 'put him back in his own bed', why let it come to that? Don't let him get in yours in the first goddamn place. Pretend you have a pair of goddamn balls, be the grown up, and tell the little 8 year old that he's no longer a baby and no longer gets baby treatment.

He whines about it, fine, 8 year olds whine, he'll adapt.

If your wife is backing your son, do NOT back down. YOU are her husband, not the little boy.

The Good Man Project is basically about how to be a wussified man/father.

What everybody already said. However, the kid is now 8, and by 8 you can reason with them. You can explain that things have gotten out of hand, why this is a problem, and - no discussion here - that it's time to fix it. Then you do so.

You can try something to make it more palatable. The calendar idea with rewards isn't bad. However, underneath whatever games are played, the kid must sense steel: no give, no negotiation, and this from both parents.

As others have said, though, where's the wife? Is she also being run by her 8-year-old or, god forbid, is she on his side? That's a critical side of the story.

Oedipus Rex on line 1...

Sweet Meteor of Death, take us now!

"just simply saying no one night isn't fair to the kid."

Bullshit it isn't. You sit him down and explain that you've been trying, he's not listening, and this is going to end tonight. And then you stick to it. Kid wakes up in his own bed, and dad wakes up with his own balls. Might take a couple of nights, but eventually the natural order is restored and the world is spared one more entitled whiner.

This kind of crap drives me nuts.

They can also look into things like nightlights that will make it more cozy for him.

I was never allowed to sleep in my parents' bed after I turned 3, but I developed a severe phobia of the dark when I was about 7. Try as I might to wear my parents down, pull on their heartstrings and sneak in their bed in the middle of the night, I was rebuffed.

That's not to say my parents were mean. They asked me what we could do to make my room less scary. They installed three nightlights and allowed me to leave the hall light on with the door open. When I had a nightmare, one of them came into my room with me and meticulously searched every nook and cranny to prove there were no monsters (but didn't cave and let me follow them back to their bed). I learned that no matter what I did, the end result was me sleeping in my bed. Period. Eventually, I settled for covering every inch of my walls in glow-in-the-dark stars.

This stuff is HARD. My parents lost lots of sleep walking me back to my room, searching under the bed and giving me pep talks. But parenting is HARD. And I was totally fine in a few weeks. Instead of learning I could manipulate my parents, they taught me that my fear was a problem and empowered me to solve the problem.

They want to sell the house now, and those dang glow-stars are still there, though ...

Sweet Meteor of Death, take us now! -- I R A Darth Aggie at April 25, 2013 10:44 AM

I'm still voting for Captain Trips.

Why is Dad okay with being displaced to the couch every night by an eight-year-old?

Why is Mom seemingly okay with her husband sleeping on the couch every night?

There are issues in this marriage and with these people beyond an eight-year-old with an out-sized sense of entitlement.

Kids need consistency. If your style is laid back and you suddenly go to hardass, the kid isn't going to buy it.

Plus, this guy ISN'T a hardass, won't believe in being a hardass 100%, so if the kid senses weakness he will go in for the kill.

Whatever parenting technique you use, do it, don't waffle.

Guy needs to talk to other co-sleeping parents that share his philosophy and find a solution that he can use.

"As others have said, though, where's the wife?"

Hiding behind the impenetrable shield of intimacy with her son to avoid repairing the lost intimacy with her husband.

I'm surprised it's still a marital bed.

By 8, your biggest sleeping concern should be that the boy will fall out of the top bunk.

What do you do or are you going to do when the other boys come over for sleepovers?

What do you do or are you going to do when the other boys come over for sleepovers?

The guy says the boy doesn't seem to care that he can't have sleepovers.

My question is what the fuck the kid was doing in the bed in the first place.

The dangers (roll-overs, for instance) and side effects (see above) of co-sleeping far outweigh the benefits. I've met more than a few "co-sleepers" who can't use the bathroom without their toddler coming along. Co-sleeping is not as much about the health of the child as it is the selfishness of the parent. Cribs were invented for a reason.

The excuse about breastfeeding is just that, an excuse. If you make a commitment to breastfeed, you also make an excuse to wake up several times a night. Or more likely, get a few snatches of sleep in between hour long feedings that satisfy for a few minutes tops. No shortcuts allowed. This is what it means to be a parent.

If you can't deal, buy formula.

"Hiding behind the impenetrable shield of intimacy with her son to avoid repairing the lost intimacy with her husband."

Bulls-eye.

"Our son's refusal to sleep in his own bed is something that makes us feel inadequate as parents."

That's because they are inadequate as parents.

"And it is something that makes me, as the father, feel small and impotent."

That's because, as the father, he is small and impotent.

"...and thankfully, SIDS was averted."

Oh, thank God they were able to dodge that bullet!

What the hell is wrong with that guy? I bet they're not even his kids.

I bet if he stiffens his spine and kicks the kid out his wife will go sleep in the kid's bed and then try to lay a guilt trip on him, which would probably work with this guy. But even if Good Wuss sleeps in his own bed alone it would still be an improvement over the current situation.

MonicaP: "I have to wonder at how much longer the boy will WANT to sleep with his mom. I'd think he'd start feeling weird about it soon."

Why would he start feeling weird about it if no one makes it clear to him that it is weird?

I once heard a security guard at a place I used to work, a young man in his late 20's, unashamedly admit to coworkers that he slept with his mother until he was 16.

No shortcuts allowed.

I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as that. Co-sleeping is generally safe as long as the baby isn't covered in blankets and the people are sober. And whether you're formula feeding or breastfeeding, you're probably getting very little sleep at the beginning, so every little bit helps.

The important word in all of that, though, is "baby." Eight years old is very old to be sleeping with your mom in Western culture.

to wtf: sleeping with the baby in bed or right there next to the bed when nursing is soooo much easier in the early days, until the kid on a schedule. You can nurse and kind of doze yourself and actually get some rest at night. However, in 2-6 weeks the kid should be sleeping regular stretches and waking up a predictable times (in our cases, sleeping through the night and I know we are insanely lucky) and at that point moved to a crib.

I don't understand why LW wakes up at midnight and stumbles to bed? does he fall asleep on the couch every night??? A 1st step might be having the kid at least start his night in his own bed, and it'd be a lot harder for the kid to take over his spot on the bed if he were actually already IN IT.

I also sympathize with the getting up early for work thing -- yes, it's hard, but you just have to suck it up. Take turns, one night the wife walks him back to bed the next night is his turn. Or shifts, if it's before 2am the wife takes him back to bed . . . that way the BOTH don't loose the whole night's sleep. He shouldn't have to do it on his own.

If you can't outlast your kid in stubbornness in this thing, then as teenagers you are totally hosed.

causticf: ""Naw, I think I'll stay inside and read a book."* Oh, that brings back memories of my saying that exact thing to my Dad. I never did it again."

What?! No gentle transition period?! How harsh and un-f-a-a-i-i-rrr to you as a member of The Children class.

I had similar experiences as a child, with both parents. My dad was more intimidating when he got pissed; my mother would take more crap off of me but was more likely to slap me upside the head when she'd had enough of it.

Do you think we could meet today's criteria for PTSD and qualify for disability? Not that I'd want to go on disability seeing that the damage inflicted by my parents has caused me to earn 10 times more by working.

NicoleK: "If your style is laid back and you suddenly go to hardass, the kid isn't going to buy it."

Isn't going to buy it? Too bad! You don't sell him on it; you impose it on him.

Isn't going to buy it? Too bad! You don't sell him on it; you impose it on him.

The impression I'm getting from NicoleK's post is that the father isn't going to be able to impose this on the kid because he can't pull it off.

We could tell him to stop being such a pussy and fix the problem, but if he could do that, it wouldn't be a problem. He needs to find a way to solve the problem that fits with his own parenting style. Whether he does it gently or Rambo-style, he's going to need to be tough.

The Father: "And it is something that makes me, as the father, feel small and impotent."

Because you are.

I read the whole article. This guy is not just a major wimp, he is also a lazy asshole. Here's why he is stumbling into bed at midnight:

"After dinner and dishes with the family, I’ll retreat to my small corner of the universe, a spot in the bedroom I share with my wife where I’ve wedged a desk and an old computer. For an hour or so, I’ll tinker with words, stories or poems or pieces like the one I’m writing now. Then I’ll then go downstairs and watch the Red Sox game, curse at the television, perhaps grade some papers if I’m so inspired. Meanwhile, my wife and kids will go to bed, and I’ll doze off on the couch to the soporific rhythms of a baseball game. Around midnight, I’ll wake and sluggishly stumble up the stairs to my bedroom, undress in the dark, and attempt to slip into bed."

His only interaction with his family is at dinnertime. He barely notices the kids going to bed, never mind trying to enforce any bedtime rules. This probably has been going on for years. If I were his wife, I'd be so full of resentment of him that I'd be glad I don't have to sleep with him.

" The best I can muster is to tease the boy by calling him Oedipus, a reference that he doesn’t get and certainly doesn’t bother him."

Of all that he wrote, THIS bothered me greatly. I commented to everything else, as helpfully as I could... but this indicates a whiney passive aggressiveness, that is just... perhaps pathetic? I suppose that is quite harsh, but I can't think of a better.

This is like seeking the approval of the pack, by bearing your belly. Acting as if being a put upon wuss is a good thing. Everybody [including pediatricians and stuff] have already told him what to do.

But it's HAAAARRRDD!!!!111! It' ain't going to get easier. When #1 son was dunno, maybe 4 we consulted the oracles... and came to a book called 1-2-3 Magic by Thom Phelan... that lays out consistency, counting, and discipline for the kid. It kinda took that book to get my ex- and me both on the same page about what to do to be EFFECTIVE.

Worked pretty well. Getting the kid involved in Young Marines [kinda like scouts, but with an edge] shaped him up quite well too. We had the additional problem by then that we were divorced, and that makes it WAY worse.

Ultimately, this guy makes his money writing, and making it sound good and entertaining. I'm sure this is entertaining for some people, just as The Art of Manliness is for others. Who knows, maybe this is a much smaller problem exaggerated and burnished to sound good.

Or maybe this guy is in the process of watching his marriage implode, and this is just another symptom. If the wife and the kids have no use for you. It's over.

My youngest daughter went through a phase when she was about 6 of wanting to sleep with her stepfatehr and me. She claimed she had a nightmare and wanted to get in bed with us. I told her we sleep naked. She went back to her bed immediately. Never asked to get in our bed again.

My middle daughter is a sleep walker, even at 22. She still lives at home and when she sleep walks now, it's right to my bed. She lays down, sleeps for about 30 minutes, then sleep walks back to her bed.

I was a LLL leader for 13 or 14 years. What I can tell you about attachment parenting is that the parents are supposed to follow the child's cues, not in the sense of being lorded over, but following the baby's developmental cues and adapting your parenting to meet those changes.

What I mean is that the baby/child will change as they develop. Babies will really stop nursing, and they will leave the family bed. However, after seeing hundreds of mother/baby pairs and families, I can say that from what I've seen the child starts to move away from the family bed between 3 and 4. Never, never, have I ever known a 8 year old to still be sleeping with their parents.

I have seen, though, mothers ignore or subvert the child's cues...they're not ready to stop nursing, they're not ready for the child to move to his or her own room or bed. There are also, in the case of nursing, 'stopgap mothers', who, instead of actually parenting, will nurse for every reason under the sun...she's on the phone and doesn't want to cut off her call and play, the kid is bored, every time the child cries or displays any dissatisfaction, because it's easier than actually dealing with whatever is going on.

This mother is letting her child be a shield between she and her husband, to the detriment of his development.

Attachment parenting is great. It is family time, bonding, and security for a small child, but it's not meant to be a blanket excuse for complete selfishness, like insisting on bringing a tiny baby to adult social events, or being demanding in your social circle because you have a baby. Neither is it meant to be an emotional pacifier for the parent, or a substitute for a normal marital relationship. It aggravates me to no end when people call this kind of weird selfish behavior 'attachment parenting' when it is not. Fostering independence on the child's developmental timetable (NOT ignoring moves to independence!) in a loving environment is.

"sleeping with the baby in bed or right there next to the bed when nursing is soooo much easier in the early days"

Exactly. It's a lazy short cut. It's easier for the parent, not the baby. It's selfish of the parent, because it inevitably leads to this kind of behavior. It's cruel to the child, because eventually the child must be separated from the parent at night, which can traumatize the child. If you do it when you're supposed to, like WHEN THEY LEAVE THE WOMB, it's natural. They learn to self soothe. Helps them to cope as adults. And I question it's safety. Ever seen one of those baby slings in use? Death by Tittie!

If you make a commitment to being a parent, you make a commitment to sleepless nights. And diaper changes. And laundry. And spit up. You don't get to take short cuts to make it easier on you.

Rule #1 in our house. No kids in the bed. Sure, now that they're older they'll try to jump in and pretend to sleep when we're all upstairs putting away laundry or something, but they are NOT allowed to sleep in the bed.

My kids had various issues (like serious GERD) that prevented sleeping through the night until about age 3. That's right, age 3. Actually, my youngest is about 3 and a half and only makes it all night every other night or so (potty!).

To be clear, that means that I haven't slept through the night on a regular basis in over SEVEN years, as my kids are 3 years apart, and pregnancy caused serious sleep disruption for me. And that was WITH formula feeding starting at 6 & 3 months respectively.

So, you know, cry me a river.

Or, switch off taking naps on Sat/Sun for a couple weeks so you're not so sleep deprived that you're loopy, and then say, "This is it. Time for your own bed." If he hops out and tries to come into your room, put him back. Worst case scenario, lock your door. You'll come out if he needs you, but he's not going in.

Or... some doggie gates are too tall for kids to step over. You can leave the door open, but they can't get in!

And, another possibility for kids clinging to parents bed:

My cousin's daughter kept creeping into her bed at maybe 7 years old. Finally one day cousin got up and went to sleep in her daughter's bed, thinking since it was empty she'd have more room in there. The very next day she went and bought her daughter a new mattress, because it was cheap and horribly uncomfortable. That largely solved the problem. If you're sleeping on a $2k Tempurpedic and kid is sleeping on a $79 Kmart special, it's hard to blame the kid for preferring yours.

Damn, dude, I understand you're not the same kind of "drinking is what men do" puffed-up loudmouth poet as Bukowski, but get back on the testosterone truck already.

My four year old is always sleeping in my bed.

At night he comes in and screams and cries that I put him in bed and sleep with him. He doesn't like being alone and demands I pick him up and put him in bed with me. He then steps over me as he settles under the covers. The worst thing is he farts a lot under the covers and it's the really quiet stinky farts.

I have tried to ignore him but he just screams and screams and cries. I try to reason with him but he isnt progressing mentally.

It's especially bad in the morning because he wakes me right before I have to get up for work. Apparently he wants to go to the bathroom and I have to take him. He likes to poo in the neighbors yard and isn't responsive to being trained to go in a toilet.

Oh well such is the life with a pug...

Exactly. It's a lazy short cut. It's easier for the parent, not the baby.

It's OK for parents to do things that make life easier for themselves, especially when it hurts the kid not at all, and is in fact a good thing for the baby, too. Which brings me to this:

it inevitably leads to this kind of behavior. It's cruel to the child, because eventually the child must be separated from the parent at night, which can traumatize the child. If you do it when you're supposed to, like WHEN THEY LEAVE THE WOMB, it's natural. They learn to self soothe. Helps them to cope as adults.

You concerns aren't backed up by any of the research I've read on this, and I've read a lot. Children aren't generally developmentally ready to sleep alone from the womb. Attachment theory (not the same as attachment parenting) suggests that the more secure a child feels, the more independent he will be. So what seems like coddling can lead to a greater sense of independence in children. It seems to fly in the face of a lot of the "But I had a job and paid my own way by the time I was 3 years old!" parenting philosophy, but the research is compelling.

What leads to this behavior, in many cases, is when parents stunt natural development, or when the kid feels insecure, which could be the case if he senses that he is actually the one in charge of the family.

"Such is a life w/a Pug." HAAA!

I sympathise Ppen. I too have a very demanding over-aged toddler - 7 years - who demands access to the bed, makes herself at home, yowls when I move her - and then doesn't want me to sleep in past feeding time in the morning. Tonkinese cats can be very difficult.

I think I'd make a better father than this guy though, because when she acts up in the morning she gets tossed out of bed sharpish. I've locked cats out of the room too when required. I like them on the bed - if they settle.

I don't have kids, but I'm the eldest of four, so I've got some clue about tantrums. I was looking after a friend's roughly three year old one night, my gf and her friend were there, we put her to bed around 7:30pm, she could barely keep her eyes open. The screaming started. My gf's friend suggested "maybe we should turn out all the lights and pretend we're asleep?"

I. Don't. Think. So.

Yeah, I just want to weigh in on wtf's assertion that sleeping with an infant is selfish and inevitably leads to this sort of nonsense. I kept all four of my babies near my bed, sometimes in it, while they were young enough to need night time feedings, and I've never had this problem. They all transitioned to toddler beds in another room easily enough, and express zero interest in sleeping in my bed. Co-sleeping with infants isn't selfish so long as the baby is safe (firm mattress, no fluffy blankets, no drunk parents) and if it helps the baby's needs get met faster and helps the mom stay healthier, better-rested, and happier, it's good for the baby---If mama ain't happy....

Really, the guy is a shit parent all around. Mom's not off the hook either. This really seems like it's less about co-sleeping and normal discipline issues and more about the dad's complete withdrawal from his family and his after-the-fact justification. It's apparently pretty common for single moms, or moms married to emotionally unavailable men, to become inappropriately enmeshed with their sons, to the child's detriment. One book I read went as far as to call it emotional incest. The dad needs to first be the heavy with himself, and make himself participate in his family's, especially his wife's, night time routine. The son needs to see Dad meeting the emotional needs of Mom and son, so that he (the son) won't feel that Mom and son are supposed to take care of each other exclusively.

"Oh well such is the life with a pug..."

You had me going there for a minute! Sounds like you need to change his food, though...

Incidentally, in MRHM circles, GMP is regarded as having jumped the shark. It's pretty much run by PM feminists now, and they just recently fired the guy who founded it.

This wimp deserves everything he gets, including his future discovery that his wife is "sleeping" in a second bed that doesn't contain him OR his 8-year-old son.

If this guy is so wussified that he can't even bring himself to fulfill his parental OBLIGATIONS, he's probably relieved that he no longer has to perform such a violent and troglodytic act on his wife as sexual intercourse. Because, you know, all sex is rape, and nice guys don't commit rape.

I'm kind late to this discussion; but, here's my two-cents worth anyway.

More parents need to learn to be parents. Kids will have plenty of opportunity to have friends in life. But, only get two chances to have parents. (some only get one chance - the kids of single moms). Don't deny kids that chance.