This is what killed the relationship with my last girlfriend - her habit of sharing details with her coven of female friends that should have remained private. Their subsequent efforts to pressure me with not-so-subtle allusions to things that were none of their business drove the final stake into the heart of it.

A woman who is too stupid to figure out that you don't share confidences with others is simply not LTR or marriage worthy.

I have over the years held more confidences than I care to admit.

I look at it short of murder or something similar, I have no right to pass on your personal information that you confided to me.

But if a woman says in front of me and four other people that "Since she breastfed she has to role her tits up in her bra," it is not confidential info. (The guys have been wondering if she was real or Memorex.)

I understand a single close friend, but there is a reason I'm not on FuceBook.

> sharing details with her coven of female friends
> that should have remained private
>
>Posted by: CedarFever at May 2, 2013 10:51 PM

☑

Thus far the conversation is suggesting that only women do this. Evidently, the gentlemen in this thread don't go to gyms. Or if they do, they do, they avoid locker rooms.

Guys can be very much given to share the details of their sex lives, and not because they're seeking advice on a problem. More than once I have overheard something and thought that their girlfriends would be absolutely mortified if they could hear this.

But on the other side, guys tend to mind their own business when it comes to the kind of hint-dropping and pressure application that CedarFever experienced.

I'm in the "don't ask, don't tell" camp on this. I don't share my intimate deets with anyone who won't share theirs with me. However, I don't ask for them, either. If a good friend wants to bounce something off me in hopes of getting some help with something, that's one thing. Gossiping about her man just for shits and giggles doesn't sit too well with me, because, ferinstance, what would she be saying about me (or something I'd confided to her) to someone else?

Nah, I'm not into playing that little game.

One of the best takes ever came from the last psychiatrist. Here's what he wrote:

Loyalty over truth.

This is going to be controversial: no matter what happens, your family is first. That doesn't sound controversial? Read on.

If I have a kid on the lam for a series of crimes he did coked up on heroin, and he asks me for some money to hide out in Uganda, guess what? I'm giving him the money. I may take some corrective actions; but no one else gets to.

I know this doesn't work within the framework of a just society, but I do not happen to believe we live in a just society. The only thing I do know is my family is all I really have. I may want to kill them, but you can't.

Knowing that many won't agree with that posture, I'll soften it a bit:

The same loyalty code applies to your discussions with outsiders about your family. No jokes at your spouse's expense. Ever. You never tell your coworkers about your kid's drug habit, or your wife's porn addiction, or that you wish your wife had a porn addiction. Certainly you have a best friend that you can commiserate with, but even within that relationship you cannot tell them anything permanently damaging. No facts, only feelings. For example, "my husband doesn't listen, he doesn't understand, he ignores me, etc" is ok on special occasions. But "my husband punched a window, he takes Zoloft, he has a shoe fetish, etc" is definitely out. Honor means: shut your trap.

First, it's disrespectful to your spouse. Second, more practically, it changes the other person's relationship to your spouse, and consequently to you. Telling your coworker you're divorcing your husband because he's sleeping with a cheerleader also tells your coworker things about you, e.g. "what the hell is going on in that house?" and "she talks a lot."

Hubbard has provided the best answer ever.

If you have something you don't want out there, remember, two can keep a secret if one of them is dead. I may be the only living exception to that rule, because I find disloyalty truly repulsive.

I'm going to be a contrarian and defend the people who talk.

Blanket rules rarely apply to all relationships. Some people might just be more open about their lives -- they don't keep secrets because they don't feel like they have anything to hide. Part of the reason someone would keep a secret is they assume that the information is important to other people. The truth is, the vast majority of secrets I've been entrusted with (and which I respect, and keep) are total non-events that the person is only keeping secret to make themselves feel important. If I walked up to another friend and said, "So I just got the scoop, Xena went on another secret date with Hercules!" [insert friends' names] most people I know would go, "Meh. Who? Why should I care?"

If you promise someone to keep a secret (or to keep certain aspects of your personal life together private), I 100% agree you should honor that promise. But that doesn't mean everyone makes that promise, or particularly cares. What SHOULD be a blanket rule is that you actually communicate with each other about the level of privacy you need in your relationship, and then you both honor the terms you've agreed upon, whether that's "Nothing leaves this house, ever" or "You can mention all the positions except that one time I barfed when I was upside-down."

It entirely depends on the context and content of what's being discussed, how often, and with how many.

It's trashy to constantly divulge intimate, and potentially embarrassing, details about your partner and your relationship to your whole circle of friends.

On the other hand, it's extremely unhealthy to feel that you should never discuss such an important aspect of your life with a friend if something's bothering you. It's not a betrayal to have a candid conversation with someone you trust to help put things into perspective.

Here's a thought: if any sharing of private information outside the home is a form of infidelity, what does that make advice columns?

I draw the line at some of the stuff Hubbard quoted. That "my tribe, right or wrong" attitude is a lot of what I think is wrong with society today. Being related to me does not give you the right to expect me to be your co-conspirator. If you've robbed a bank, and you tell me about it, I'm damn well calling the police.

Having said that: In my younger days, I was for some reason the type of person that people liked to tell their problems to. I never figured out why that was -- it doesn't seem to happen so much anymore. But yeah, I've buried and forgotten a lot of confidences. My wife and I basically have one close friend, with whom we share a lot. And we're pretty much open book with each other, although there is some privacy-by-default because I have a few activities that she's not interested in, and vice versa. It helps that we've each got spaces in the house where we can go when we want some alone time.

I feel like the reality is unfortunately, a boring one. There are limits to both sides.

As I was growing up, I was definitely in the relationship are strictly private vain. I didn't tell my friend anything about what was going on with my relationships and that was a mistake. Friends can be good counsel, be thoughtful and offer different perspectives. Sharing can also make you realize that many others struggle with the same thing and that you're not terribly alone.

Too much sharing can be equally destructive because you can lose your partner's trust. Why would I feel safe telling you something or doing something with you, if I feel as though I am going to be judged by all your friends.

You have a to find a balance that makes sense for you and your partner. No one wants to be the butt of inside jokes and no one wants to feel as though they can never discuss anything.

What Andrew said.

About a month before my then-gf (now, wife) moved in with me, she had a guy friend whom she had a FWB relationship with before we dated, whom she still talked to often. As if that weren't annoying enough to me, I discovered accidentally that she was discussing with him moving to the East Coast for career opportunities, even as some of her stuff was in my house and she was about to move in.

I mostly believed her when she explained that she was just absent-minded and wasn't used to discussing certain things with a significant other. It hurt me very much, but, she's here now, has a great job and a great start to her career. Most importantly, we talk about everything and don't really keep information to ourselves.

My husband of 29 years and I made a deal when we got married--no trash talking to 3rd parties about each other. If I wouldn't say it out loud to his face, I sure am not going to dish to my girl friends. And trust me, I say plenty to his face, but not behind his back.
And if I can't say it to him, that's what diaries, shrinks and long talks with my dog are for. I know plenty of people who grouse about their SOs to anyone who'll listen, but don't work on their relationships first hand.

Hannah: Here's a thought: if any sharing of private information outside the home is a form of infidelity, what does that make advice columns?

I would say advice columns do not fall under infidelity. The letters are kept anonymous. And it's not as if the columnist plans on making lunch dates with her writers.

If it were someone that your spouse had a reasonable chance of encountering the person you're divulging information on, knows her by name, might discuss this with someone else, etc., then there's the problem of infidelity.

But an advice columnist? Please. If you write to Dear Abby (aside from the fact that you're an idiot for writing her), Abby is probably not going to know your spouse, nor is she going to seek her out for a lunch date, and Abby is probably not going to talk to someone about this problem, and whoever she talks to is not likely going to know you or your spouse.

Essentially, it's like talking to your shrink.

On the other hand, it's extremely unhealthy to feel that you should never discuss such an important aspect of your life with a friend if something's bothering you. It's not a betrayal to have a candid conversation with someone you trust to help put things into perspective.

This pretty sums up how I feel. My boyfriend's parents come from a culture with certain traditions and values that annoy the heck out of me sometimes. My best friend comes from that culture too, and I often call her to say things like, "OK, why are they doing this?? Why do they think it's OK to do this?? Are they INSANE?" And then she will explain their perspective and let me vent,thus preventing me from having to ask my boyfriend if his parents are INSANE.

Now, when it comes to WHO you can talk to about that stuff ... I always ask myself, "Is this person I'm about to talk about a relationship problem someone who would be MY friend if my boyfriend and I were to break up? Or HIS friend? Or would they remain friends with both of us?" Only those who would remain solely MY friend are the ones I would talk to. That way I'm not affecting my boyfriend's friendships in any way.

Patrick: I agree with you (except for the part about being an idiot for writing to Dear Abby). What I was getting at, with my snark, is an example of how a blanket diktat of "Never talk about the home outside of the home" doesn't make a lot of sense under close scrutiny. There are lots of occasions where talking about your relationship to a third party is healthy and helpful. Some people seek that in an advice columnist, others in a trusted friend. There's a difference between seeking counsel and comfort from a friend, and viciously gossiping, and it seems like some commenters here are conflating the two.

But ultimately this all falls under the general statement that there's no single right or wrong here, couples need to talk about what their boundaries are and come to a compromise that they agree on.

this seems to be a more gossip vs. discussions w/ friends thing...

when a mutual friend come up to you and says: "next time, make sure you give her a bubblebath first, then she won't be too tired to... you know."

EXCUSE ME? and how-in-the-he11 would you know THAT?

You can bet that there are a lot of people besides your S.O. that know what your 'O-face' looks like, because it's been discussed in excruciating detail.

Relationship killer.

OTOH, important discussions searching for advice on something like frigidity... much more serious... but with a warning.

It may well be that some of it has to do with the kind of person you are asking advice of, or gossiping with.

Will those people keep YOUR secrets?

Um, I think "My husband punched a window" is DEFINITELY something you should share... not just with your friends but with your lawyer, the cops, and an abuse counselor as well. If your husband is that psycho it's time to find a safe way out.

@Amy...hm. First of all, I think it all depends on the agreement between the couple. It could vary. What might not be a betrayal to two people who are very open about their relationship might be a betrayal if it happens between two people who agreed upon a lot more privacy.

But I guess there are some standards. I think it's unfair to gossip just for the sake of complaining. I liked one commenter who said she complained to a friend just to get her feedback on whether that behavior was normal in that particular culture. There's stuff that's constructive and stuff that's not. The unconstructive stuff (just unloading all your frustration) should generally be the conversation you have with the dog or the punching bag at the gym, because it accomplishes nothing besides casting a bad light on your partner.

Definitely, sharing anything your partner explicitly asked to keep between you (even if you're normally pretty open).

Also, sharing things purely to manipulate. If you tell something to a friend that you know will gossip about it, just in the hopes that your friends will put the pressure on you S.O., I think that's wrong no matter what your privacy agreement is.

Most people I know who bitch and moan endlessly about their troubles and issues aren't looking for solutions--they're just rehearsing their grievances and picking their scabs.

And then there's over-the-top shit like this.

As others have said, to me it must be an agreement between the two people in the relationship. But not just about "where the limits are", but also how to how to deal with those times when the agreement breaks down. Happens in many ways: someone shares when they shouldn't or doesn't when they should, someone's feelings change and the original limits are no longer sufficient, or a new situation arises that the agreement can't resolve. If you're with someone long enough, it's GONNA happen, being able to respond respectfully and gracefully is a real challenge.

If no one ever talked about things that happened to them in a relationship (relationship is not just romantic) or thigns that have happened to them, what's left to talk about? The weather? Politics? Religion? If I can't talk about personal things in my life with someone, they aren't friends, they're acquiantances.

I don't have a real problem with somoeone talking about me, either. If I did something annoying, feel free to tell your friend at dinner. It's no skin off my back.

People who don't unload their frustrations somewhere end up having issues. I can hear my friend talk about how irritating it is that her husband seems to have grown roots into the couch from his ass, and I take it for what it is-blowing off steam. Doesn't make me hate him. I'm a good listener, though. Maybe others aren't.

Perhaps off topic, but there is also a flipside: When do you keep confidences from your partner? For example, I don't, because we talk about everything, and it's too difficult to remember when something is supposed to be secret. If someone is about to tell me something confidential, I make sure that they understand thay they are also sharing the information with my wife.

Where do you all think the point is where getting feedback becomes disloyalty?

When its not about getting feedback but a selfish need to cut someone else down, or when you know its something they dont want shared

> I do not happen to believe we live in a just
> society. The only thing I do know is my
> family is all I really have.

Of course, this infantile, primitive, and not even medieval. It's obviously loathsome.

The Unabomber's brother turned him in, earning straightforward admiration from decent people.

The only thing I do know is my
> family is all I really have.

When I moved across the country, far from my family, I made my own family -- my husband, my daughter, and friends who mean the world to me. I chose people I don't have to worry about turning into the police for terrible crimes.

The baby is a wild card, but I think she'll turn out fine. If she hurts people, I will turn her ass in, though.

> That "my tribe, right or wrong" attitude is a lot
> of what I think is wrong with society today

Exactly; not just society, but the whole planet. That's how things work in the primitive cultures where Islam finds the greatest devotion-- They have no idea how many people there are in the world or how our lives are interconnected.

Modern life means trusting in enforceable contacts and shared interests, with a much-expanded understanding of how many shared interests there are. Things like this—

> I know this doesn't work within the framework
> of a just society, but I do not happen to
> believe we live in a just society. The only
> thing I do know is my family is all I really
> have.

— are profoundly stupid, even in blog comments. And things like this —

> I'm giving him the money. I may take some
> corrective actions; but no one else gets to

— are flatly criminal.

Modernity isn't moderate. If you're in, you're all in. No nibbling.




> Most people I know who bitch and moan
> endlessly about their troubles and issues
> aren't looking for solutions--they're just
> rehearsing their grievances and picking their
> scabs.

☑

I was checking out Flynne's link, about a woman how found that her nudie pictures were posted to a "revenge porn site."

This I found especially interesting:

Jacobs rejects criticism from people who said she never should have sent – or taken – the photographs in the first place.

Color me shocked. She takes no responsibility whatsoever in her victimization. And that's not victim blaming. It's victim responsibility.

“It’s absolutely just a new version of victim blaming," she said. "What I would say to victims when they hear that is, just hold on to that little voice inside of you that says, ‘This is not right.' What’s happening to me is not OK, and there need to be laws in place against this.”

Laws which would not be necessary if she didn't take these photos and videos in the first place. Did this hollow skull ever ask why he wanted the pictures and videos in the first place?

One more thing. Regarding her civil suit against her former boyfriend: "[Holly] Jacobs [formerly known as Holli Thometz]is seeking immediate removal of all photos and videos off the Web."

Good luck with that, honeybunch. Once they've posted, they've been downloaded. You will never have them off the internet. Deal with it.

You know who are really good at keeping secrets inside the family? An abused spouse, abused children, alcoholics and drug users, family of alcoholics and drug users. Blanket secrets are not good. I agree, you shouldn't belittle your family members to others, even to other family members. I had a brother and sister in law tell all sorts of bad things about me to other family members and people I didn't even know. Yes I was going though a really bad time in my life. No, nothing was criminal and I never hurt anyone but myself. But the stories they told, were not to help me, or get help for me, they never even talked to ME about it. Their conversations were for entertainment value among themselves, or to make themselves feel better. I am not sure why they did what they did. I still love my brother, he will always be my brother. But I don't trust him. And yes, I am doing better and have my life back on track.

"The baby is a wild card, but I think she'll turn out fine."

Punch a window and she'll go all NicoleK on ya. I kicked a wall during the divorce. It was brick. I broke my ankle. Tried to play it off as twisted ankle, trail running. But kids say the darndnest things.

"If your husband is that psycho it's time to find a safe way out."

Um, I'd rather if my husband got angry enough to punch something, he punches a window. That way, he'll gash his hand open and learn a lesson. The psycho part comes in when he punches YOU. People get angry, especially people with anxiety, depression, or, hehe, rage issues. It happens. It doesn't make them psycho, it makes them very good candidates for rage therapy.

"Laws which would not be necessary if she didn't take these photos and videos in the first place."

I am reminded of Jim Carrey in Liar Liar. STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE!!!

If you don't want nudie pictures of you to get out, maybe don't put them online in the first place? That's like leaving a steak in a bear pit and blaming the bear when you go hungry.

Regarding secrets, everyone has them. When you post them online, they become public property. Like it or not, legal or not, whatever you put online has a risk of coming back to bite you in the ass.