Do people really put their dogs down because they are suffering, though? Or is it because they are suffering and it gets to a point where the amount of care and money it would take to alleviate it becomes too high for an animal? I mean there are very few people who can afford round-the-clock care for an animal. But there are a lot who would make sure it happened for a human.

Well, we are in partial agreement.

We all have a right to die, in fact, it is inevitable at some point.
However, it was government and the courts that created these problems to begin with, by allowing jackpot lawsuits against medical professionals for failing to keep your sorry ass alive.

Who decides if you are making a rational choice when you want to kill yourself?

If you have the means to kill yourself on your own, and most people do other than those who are either quadrapalegic, or so far gone, they are on life support anyway, you are in the drivers seat. Your options may be a little messy but you won't be in agony for the last few weeks of your life either.

However, In no ethical system would I, as a libertarian claim that I have the right to dragoon the unwilling, medical professional or not into assisting me to commit suicide, anymore than I should be able to force them into performing an abortion.

That's a something that many people fail to see, Isab. There are many people who have no desire to be a part of killing and this is not in all or most cases a religious objection.

I really don't have any objection to a law that allows someone who wants to take their own life but, if any help is required, it should be voluntary and with no state coercion involved.

That's a something that many people fail to see, Isab. There are many people who have no desire to be a part of killing and this is not in all or most cases a religious objection.

I really don't have any objection to a law that allows someone who wants to take their own life but, if any help is required, it should be voluntary and with no state coercion involved.

I'm far more afraid of living too long than I am of dying prematurely.

Both of my grandmothers lived to be well into their 90s, in nursing homes, unable to see, unable to hear, couldn't recognize anyone, couldn't remember anything or communicate, and spent most of their time sleeping and having their diapers changed.

Their care consumed a tremendous amount of resources for very little benefit that I could see.

I will make sure it doesn't happen to me.

It benefited the owners of the nursing homes

You don't have to worry about this. The rationing of services which inexorably attends government medical care will see that you are "turned off" when there is no point to your continuing to occupy the bed that the State pays for.

You should be praying that what regulations declare is the same thing you want.

Sick? The clerk is not sick. Fill out this form. You are not being denied care - it's just not available right now.

I have just the opposite experience. Grandparents and Great Grandparents on both sides lived well into their 90's as well but they were mobile, fully cognizant, and happy. My Grandmother on my mom's side is still going strong in a rest home and I am absolutely thrilled to be able to go see her every few months. I plan to ride it out as long as I can.

I don't want to control how and when I die. I'll make the decision if it comes to that, but I'd rather not lay out the groundwork. I'd prefer to let fate do it.

Besides, we do not have the right to control how and when we die. People die all the time to circumstances beyond their control. That doesn't give the heirs and assigns the right to sue fate, God or whatever it is we think decided this.

I agree. And so did the majority of voters in Washington and Oregon.

Initiative 1000 of 2008 established the U.S. state of Washington's Death with Dignity Act (RCW 70.245), which legalizes physician-assisted dying with certain restrictions. Passage of this initiative made Washington the second U.S. state to permit some terminally ill patients to determine the time of their own death. The effort was headed by former Governor Booth Gardner. . . . The initiative is based on Oregon Measure 16, which Oregon voters passed in 1994. Oregon is the only other state to have enacted similar legislation.

" Your options may be a little messy but you won't be in agony for the last few weeks of your life either. "

Unless they try with, say, a gun, and shoot off their jaw, blow out an eye, take out part of their frontal lobe - and survive.

Oh, lucky lucky family member who gets to find the disfigured corpse or writhing victim.

Yeah, I'd rather have the doctor do it right if it's gonna be done at all.

I made up a sealed envelope that my sister has. It is last will and testament, medical POA and a general POA that kicks in with incapacitation. Life insurance policies. It has keys to my major passwords, and a way to access my stuff at home, etc.

It also has a letter that explains how to take me out if nothing above the eyeballs is working. It also absolves her of using those methods.

I abhor the idea of being in a permanent vegetative state or long-term Alzheimer/dementia with no way out. Please don't make me be in the adult diaper crowd that I can't take care of myself.

As prolife as I am when the person in question can't make their own decisions (ie abortion) I am fine with euthanasia for adults and plan to work in aggressive hospice once I am liscensed.

One of my Gma's is 92, weak but fully cognizant and able to go places for dinner etc with help. One Gma died 9 years ago at 96 totally vegetative-mom and her sibs finally decided with the Drs to withhold food and liquids-not ideal but legal. My great great Aunt (the Aunt of the 92 year old) is 98 and until recently living fine on her own, strong enough to mow her own lawn and pick up my 5 year old twins. So I am holding out for a long decent life. But if I'm terminal or vegetative I want to OD and be gone. I do NOT want to blow my brains out. That's too iffy. Even drugs aren't a guarantee. And I fully support the right to adults to choose that for themselves.

For minors though? Tough. Someone with a kid with Tay-Sachs, for example, should at some point be able to ease their baby's pain. It's a tough line though-there are people born with no legs or arms who think life is just grand and are very productive-what if at birth or shortly thereafter their parents thought that would never happen? I think people deserve a chance to grow up and make their own decisions where growing up is an option.

Consider this: if you posit that you - and everyone else - has the right to die, do you also back the idea that you have the right to defend yourself?

You should.

Every society that started with this ended with forced killing of entire classes of people declared unworthy of living.

The first gas chambers were built for Christian Germans declared "nutzlose Esser" ("useless eaters").

More recently - the economic downturn in Europe has brought a rising tide of abuse: socialized medical systems withholding quality-of-life treatments, then shunting the elderly and infirm into death tracks. The "right to die" has already shifted to a "duty to die" - to not take more than "one's fair share" of rationed services.

Again - none of the brilliant libertarian thinkers ever explain how societies remain free - that is, respecting other, lesser human rights as "inviolable" - once officials claim to know which lives are worth living. Once "life" is conditioned on administrative approval - what happens to "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness"?

Sorry - there must be a bright line forbidding the active taking of life.

Kill yourself, refuse treatment (or have it withdrawn except for palliative care). But no - you do not have a right to weaken the sanctity of human life.

EVERY time some humans arrogate to themselves the right to determine whose life is worth living - it's ended in moral disaster.

Acctually we do Ben David, by saying government officials have no say at all

Acctually we do Ben David, by saying government officials have no say at all

Posted by: lujlp at May 30, 2013 4:24 PM

Yes, but ever time you appeal to the government courts to enforce those rights that you think you have, you have given government the power to determine what your rights are.

This is why we don't need any lawsuits over a government enforced right to die. Either man up, and off yourself, or let some bureaucrat decide for you.

"Sorry - there must be a bright line forbidding the active taking of life."

There already is.

Now we need a bright line forbidding the needless torturing of the helpless bedridden longing to die.

"Now we need a bright line forbidding the needless torturing of the helpless bedridden longing to die"

I think this is a straw man. I knew three people who went to hospice in the last year. One of the conditions of going there is that all medication and treatment other than painkillers is stopped.

Medicare, and other insurance plans are not paying for people to linger on in a hospital for weeks and months, nor are they paying for people to be put on life support when there is no hope of recovery.

The only people being tortured to death are those unlucky enough to have a spouse or near relative with a power of attorney who refuses to let them go.

For those of you who think having your same sex partner be the one legally entitled to make medical decisions for you, is a progressive and good thing, I say, be careful what you wish for.

I think this is a straw man. I knew three people who went to hospice in the last year. One of the conditions of going there is that all medication and treatment other than painkillers is stopped. -- Isab at May 30, 2013 9:12 PM

It depends on the circumstances. Hospice is a deliberate decision made ahead of time, in general.

In a case of accident or dementia where the person is comatose or has no higher brain functions the medulla oblongata will keep the heart pumping for years. In most states the only way to end it is by withdrawing nutrition and water.

We don't kill prisoners that way, would you want to do that to a loved one?

In a case of accident or dementia where the person is comatose or has no higher brain functions the medulla oblongata will keep the heart pumping for years. In most states the only way to end it is by withdrawing nutrition and water.

We don't kill prisoners that way, would you want to do that to a loved one?

I also believe this rarely happens, Terry Schiavo being one of the rare exceptions. Most bed ridden people if not given constant antibiotics and physical therapy quickly die from infections or pneumonia.

At any rate, these comatose people are not the ones suing for a right to die. They aren't in pain either. I have no problem with not force feeding and medicating the comatose, and I don't want my tax dollars paying for it.

"The only people being tortured to death are those unlucky enough to have a spouse or near relative with a power of attorney who refuses to let them go."

Yeah, tough luck for THOSE losers.

I also believe this rarely happens, Terry Schiavo being one of the rare exceptions. Most bed ridden people if not given constant antibiotics and physical therapy quickly die from infections or pneumonia. -- Isab at May 31, 2013 6:35 AM

Just upthread:

One Gma died 9 years ago at 96 totally vegetative-mom and her sibs finally decided with the Drs to withhold food and liquids-not ideal but legal. -- momof4 at May 29, 2013 8:31 PM

I don't want to hang around in like an eggplant. I also don't want to wither down to looking like a breathing skeleton. Or trapped in my body with ALS. Take me out, or let me take myself out.

"The only people being tortured to death are those unlucky enough to have a spouse or near relative with a power of attorney who refuses to let them go."

Yeah, tough luck for THOSE losers."

Absolutely true, but like many unfair things in life, I can't think of a single bureaucrat administered law, that would actually make anything better. Sometimes there are no good choices, and more laws to make things better for a tiny percentage of the population, help no one. They just increase bureaucratic control and limit personal choice.

Jim P, I am in the process of caring for a very elderly but still in good shape 88 year old. Quality of life is a moving target, and is very much a judgment call. Unfortunately, the first thing that goes in the extreme elderly is their judgment.
It is wonderful to believe that somehow we are different and when we are nearing death, can still make sound decisions about quality of life, But frankly, you are kidding yourself if you think that you will be able to objectively weigh your options when you pass 85.

It is wonderful to believe that somehow we are different and when we are nearing death, can still make sound decisions about quality of life, But frankly, you are kidding yourself if you think that you will be able to objectively weigh your options when you pass 85. -- Isab at May 31, 2013 4:40 PM

I know my judgement may go. That is why I want those around me to have the ability to make the decision if the lights are on but I'm not home.

Look at this story. How much is he doing for himself? How much is habit.

The nursing home that my lady recuperated in had an Alzheimer's wing. They were constantly having to re-dress the residents who would strip naked. They would squat where they were and defecate. The few relatives who would show up were unknown to the resident. The person was mobile, but it was all reflexive, not really willful choice. That is not quality of life by my definition.

But my great-grandmother made it to 96 and was fairly coherent until the last week. She had problems remembering new people because of hearing and vision loss, but my grand aunts and uncles took care of her.

I'm not saying kill the relative because he's a little slow at 88. But keeping someone around at 88 that isn't aware should be the choice available to the POA, especially if the person that is living it has asked.

"The nursing home that my lady recuperated in had an Alzheimer's wing. They were constantly having to re-dress the residents who would strip naked. They would squat where they were and defecate. The few relatives who would show up were unknown to the resident. The person was mobile, but it was all reflexive, not really willful choice. That is not quality of life by my definition"

Jim P this is a problem without a better solution than we have right now. These people slipped into total senility without recognizing that they had no quality of life.

But in solving this problem, you are talking about involuntary euthanasia. Do you really want the person who stands to inherit your estate deciding that it is time to stop paying for your care, and bump you off?

I don't.

Do you really want the person who stands to inherit your estate deciding that it is time to stop paying for your care, and bump you off?

I don't.

-- Isab at May 31, 2013 8:54 PM

As it stands now, my immediate relatives are my mother (around 70), my sister (+3 years), and my two nephews (under 18).

If I were in an accident that killed me today, my house pays off, I have a couple of nice insurance policies that go to my sis, and she knows to cremate me and go on.

But if the accident just left me comatose/PVS the work disability kicks in, eventually the house would have to be let go and then the transition to SSI/Medicaid. And no one would get much of anything.

I'd rather go the other way. And I'm not saying that the decision maker should do be left in a vacuum, but this is the same as do we harvest organs decision.

Do you really want the person who stands to inherit your estate deciding that it is time to stop paying for your care, and bump you off?
I don't.

-- Isab at May 31, 2013 8:54 PM

If I'm not cognizant enough to protest, hell yes.

I am my mind, not my meat.

Haven't the Japs encouraged suicide for centuries? It's THE face-saving exit plan for disgraced individuals. For any who object, "assisted suicide" is a definite option.

"I don't want to hang around in like an eggplant. I also don't want to wither down to looking like a breathing skeleton. Or trapped in my body with ALS. Take me out, or let me take myself out."

Be sure you have the right documents in order, today!