Hey, let's take this to a logical conclusion:

Your fault, you pay.

Traffic accident while texting ties up the Interstate for 90 minutes? You'd better have serious $$ for the truckers and other professionals stuck sitting because you just couldn't pay attention.

Meanwhile: no one is forcing professionals to search. And did you not notice the word, "volunteer"?

What does that mean?

Agreed. I go hiking a lot and it amazes me how many people go into the woods unprepared - either they don't bring enough water, no maps, the wrong clothing (seriously, you're wearing flip-flops?), etc.

So many times, as I come close to the end of my hike, I meet people who are just starting out and they ask "how much further to the summit?" Knowing that I am only about 20 minutes or so from the trail head, I ask them when did they start? And they do NOT know! One of the basic of hiking is to keep track of time. How can you not know what time you left the trail head? Did you not have any plans? I often point out that, "hey, it is a 3-hour hike to the summit and it is now 6:00 pm, were you planning on hiking in the dark on your way back?"

Then when they get into trouble - the rest of us have to bail them out?

I understand sometimes things happen beyond one's control; but, when someone is a complete idiot the rest of us shouldn't have to pay for their stupid mistakes.

What Charles said.

The problem is: there is a gigantic gray zone. The best prepared hikers can get into trouble, the worst prepared miraculously not, and there's everything in between. What is reckless? Who decides?

Be careful, or this will be just another way for the state to take money from citizens.

I look at it from the viewpoint who initiated the search and why.

But in this case, apparently the cops saw meth in the car and went out in search. That is a pursuit of a criminal. The offenders did not ask for the help.

They shouldn't have to pay.

a_random_guy:

Be careful, or this will be just another way for the state to take money from citizens.

I am suspicious about situations where a service is forced onto someone, and then they are expected to pay for it.

My only source of information for the case in question is the LA Times article, which only says they "went missing". I don't really know what this means, and am not sure how our beloved goddess jumps from this to "judgment-devoid assholes." She is however local to the story and so may know more than I about it.

I do have to wonder if I were to go out hiking in that same place for a day or three, would somebody start a massive search for me? Would they want me to pay for it?

But in this case, apparently the cops saw meth in the car and went out in search. That is a pursuit of a criminal. The offenders did not ask for the help.

This is important. Do we intend to charge people when the cops decide to initiate a criminal investigation against them?

As it stands, taxpayers pay for all kinds of stupidity. If you fall asleep with a cigarette, the fire department is still going to put out the flames. And how do we define what's stupid? Sounds like a good way to discourage people from using the trails.

Having done my share of hiking in my time, (I live in Colorado) I've seen my fair share of the idiots Charles described. I'm on the fence about charging people for their rescues, unless they've done something obviously stupid (but then again, where do you draw the line on that?).

Also, volunteers could be citizens, or part of the rescue team. We have over 50 volunteers who work at my fire department, and while they aren't paid a wage, we do have to provide equipment, clothing and training for them, so there is a cost involved. That said, we couldn't run the place without them.

I thought we already were paying for these services in the form of taxes. Am I wrong on that? So the criteria will be "wanton and reckless conduct" and decided by whom? A government bureaucrat. Yeah, that won't be abused and come back to haunt the citizens who support it. BAD IDEA!

The fact is that most states have built an incredibly expensive full time rescue administrative structure to cope with these rare events.

Saying that it "costs" thousands of dollars to rescue someone, does not show the complete picture, as most of these rescue professionals would be sitting in an office somewhere with their thumb up their ass, still getting paid, for doing nothing, if they were never called out.

Kind of like your paramilitary swat teams.

I think the flood of illegals, and the uninsured into hospital emergency rooms, are a much bigger problem, but, the state has been hanstrung politically into instituting any kind of real fix.

The obvious solution is to have a week long course covering safe hiking and then you have to pay for a hiking license. And we'll have to make it a crime to go hiking without a license.

Cost of the course: $500
Cost of the license: $50, renewable every three years

Seems reasonable...

Cost of the course: $500
Cost of the license: $50, renewable every three years

Seems reasonable...

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at June 29, 2013 9:59 AM

Yes, And think of all those "jobs" these regulations will create. Much better than having the underemployed serve coffee and hamburgers to each other.

You want to require people to have licenses to walk? Please say you're joking.

All too often whenever someone benefits from tax dollars, the assumption is made that the individual hasn't been paying taxes all his life along with everyone else. Also, was there an extra tax hike to cover this rescue? Or did they have to dip into the doughnut fund? If part of your job is rescuing people, rescue them and shut your mouth.

Darth isn't joking. He's just taking this to the logical conclusion. Government jobs and just think how much of the riff raff you could keep out this way as well. Sounds like a win-win situation.

In this area, it's usually cavers that have to be rescued. Most are on private property or in state forests, and caves are currently off-limits due to the white nose bat disease. The cave's locations have been kept secret by the State and the Speleological Society since the 80s, but due to legends, leaks and local information we have a rescue or two every year. Last year 10 or more caves were searched for a missing man. The right cave was not searched for months, and when he found months later,deep in a cave,he turned out to be a suicide.
I believe "Extreme" Sports participants should have to show proof of special insurance before being allowed to proceed. Base Jumpers, mountain climbers, heliocopter skiers, lone cavers, bridge bungeers, lion tamers, desert trekkers, canyon jumpers...etc etc ad nauseum. We should not pay in dollars or volunteers' lives and time, for people who want to indulge their adrenalin addictions. It's fine if they want to risk their lives, but imo it should be on their own dime. It would make a nice niche insurance business as well. (This is an old hobbyhorse I ride frequently.)

In Colorado you can buy a backcountry insurance card from the state for a few bucks. If you have, a backcountry rescue is free; otherwise, you have to pony up.

Most of the closer rescues in the Front Range are performed by volunteers.

"I guess you missed the words "multiple agencies."

No. Volunteer. Look it up.

"I love that idea, the back-country insurance card. This is a way to take responsibility, which I'm all for."

This from the lady who insists you shouldn't have to have a license to cut hair...

Half of the residents of maybe ten states would have to have this "insurance" merely to live at home!

America is not LA.

Come to think of it, shouldn't you be required to have insurance against earthquakes - something more than a simple money payout scheme?

There's no end to requiring things of other people, is there?

Meanwhile, there are all sorts of things unsaid here. I suspect none of you has thought of the dozen or so scenarios possible when searching for the missing, and there is no saving some people, no matter what.

Hows about the governmet is not responsibe to safe gaurd you against your own stupidity?

You get lost, and its not due to a kidnapping, the government doesnt have to save you.

Also, if these guys were hiking in a single canyon, or canyon system as the case may be why did they need to search the car?

Also how do they know the owner of the car had possesion of the drugs and not his passanger?

I live in the Phoenix valley. There is a 'mountain' here labaled Camelback. The park area is roughly 2 miles ew, 1 mile ns. Even though it is surrounded by hunndereds of square miles of city and a little over 2 square miles itsself people still get "lost" which I find amazing

A side issue with this, how do you spend 160,000 in a search? Especially with using volunteers.
Gov't is inefficient but come on.Say you are paying someone a good salary of 20/hr. that is 100 people you've hired for 2 weeks.
A helocopter would probably be more efficient but at 350/hr each (includes pilot) you could rent 4 for up for 2 weeks of searching.
I'd like to see an itemized list to how they got 160,000. And would be surprised to not see tripple overtime and several getting new cars.

Well, since causticf seems to know so much about Aggie's intent, I'll address his argument.

Hiking is walking. That's all it is. Perhaps carrying specialized gear, or dressing in specialized clothing (or not), but it's just walking. You cannot license people the right to walk. You'd be better off selling people GPS bracelets, so the park rangers can find them.

My mom and older brother and their partners live in a tiny town in TN, 2 hours from an actual city. They, and most people there, have a lifetime life flight membership. It was maybe $250 each? And if you have to be life flighted for any reason, you don't have to pay. If you aren't a member, they do it and bill whoever. It works pretty well, and its voluntary.

For pity's sake, Patrick, neither Darth nor I were advancing serious arguments. It's called being a smartass. Of course, it's just walking and obviously shouldn't be a crime, require a license, or a fee for renewal.

You know Patrick, some people are just giving out info, there is no call to assume they endorse what they have written

In Colorado you can buy a backcountry insurance card from the state for a few bucks. If you have, a backcountry rescue is free; otherwise, you have to pony up. --Astra at June 29, 2013 1:11 PM

That's real, to a point:

Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue (CORSAR) Card

Consider supporting Colorado Search and Rescue by purchasing a 1-year or 5-year CORSAR Card. For the cost of the card, you have helped ensure that trained and well-equipped search and rescue teams will respond should you become lost or in need of rescue and they will not have to incur undue expense due to your emergency. The card is not insurance. It does not pay medical transport which includes helicopter flights or ground ambulance. The card will allow reimbursement to county sheriffs for costs incurred on a mission. If the aircraft then becomes a medical transport due to a medical emergency, the medical portion of the transport is not covered.

Really Pat, nothing in response to being hoisted on your own petard?