I suppose no one of you has ever heard of how people were poisoned in the days before factory farms, canneries and slaughterhouses were policed by regulators. I suppose you don't remember how Mad Cow Disease was spread. I suppose you think that the consumer has the means to inspect the food chain for insecticides, etc.

I am prepared to see, once again, someone claim that failures on the part of inspectors mean that no inspections should be done.

The fact is simple: a farmer, canner or butcher in trouble financially, for whatever reason, can take shortcuts every bit as often as some conglomerate or hated corporation. In the absence of enforcement, they can choose any shortcut they like until someone with serious legal representation can sue them - and then, the injured party might not be able to identify the failed process that injured them.

In the meantime, direct sale is legal in South Carolina from facilities that have been inspected by the State. Happy Cow Creamery is one of these.

You'll note that they have solid bases for their process. The state university agriculture programs have checked and endorsed every one of Happy Cow's techniques.

The solution is NOT to halt regulation or inspection. It is to get such action to recognize when an outfit has the wit to do things right, like Happy Cow, because consumer protection cannot be attained otherwise.

Try to keep this where you can see it: Safety is not attained by acting after the fact. No dead people have ever been raised from their graves by fines or jail time served by others.

Call this a childish comment if you like. But founded to be as free as possible just doesn't work. At least not for black persons. Some of the founders of our nation had some great dreams at certain points in their lives, but I can't ever forget that much of our founding freedom documents was very much poisoned. So invoking them (our forebears) in any righteous way will never really be a boom shaka laka slam dunk that illustrates how far we have sunk as society. We have progressed (in a basic civil rights perspective) so much. Many very vile horrible practices that were very common then are unheard of now. Still room for improvement. And yes, one of those is scrapping all the stupid regulations which stop one from buying food from whoever wants to sell it.

If people want to run the risk of buying from an uninspected farmer let them.

If I make myself a sandwich, take it to work, and a coworker buys it off me - how is that any different.

Perhaps if government legislators spent less time whoring out their mouths by cock sucking lobbyists for cash and creating byzintine regulation that make it nigh impossible for new businesses to start competing we could have inspected natural meat framers

Lujlp, it's different because of the magnitude of the possible adverse effect. Ask the kids in China that drank melamine instead of milk.

The problem appears to be that the regulators default position is almost always "no" and that is compounded by their default appeal cycle which is "forever long" and their default sense of fairness which is "overkill so what fuck you get a lawyer".

And it's also clear that in other areas regulations have been put in place not for scientific, or health reasons but to create barriers to entry and protect big industry. Or that it's enforced in ways that don't make any sense except to perpetuate bureaucracy and justify budget increases.

(See farm to fork fiasco)

Call this a childish comment if you like. But founded to be as free as possible just doesn't work. At least not for black persons. Some of the founders of our nation had some great dreams at certain points in their lives, but I can't ever forget that much of our founding freedom documents was very much poisoned. … -- Abersouth at July 20, 2013 11:10 PM

Abersouth,

I don't speak for Amy, but I have an idea of her thinking. It seems you are new here so I'll put this as gently as possible.

She wants to hear from everyone and doesn't mind reasonably on-topic posts. But starting with insulting the founding fathers and ideas of the Constitution without looking at the finer points of what she posted will not endear you in any fashion.

And I quite agree that the U.S. Constitution as it was originally written was flawed. That is why there is the Bill of Rights and the Article 5 convention process to refine it. And it still has flaws that need to be amended.

But you are jumping from the point that the original document was flawed and that means that the current farming over-regulation should lead to a revolution. Break it down to smaller steps and I'm sure you'll be welcome around here.

The fact is simple: a farmer, canner or butcher in trouble financially, for whatever reason, can take shortcuts every bit as often as some conglomerate or hated corporation.

The difference is the conglomerates or corporations will not be held accountable for their actions.

"Many very vile horrible practices that were very common then are unheard of now. "

Two hundred years from now, what do you think our descendants will surmise from partial birth abortion practices and single motherhood (and the government's monetary support of them)?

How will they balance this with creation of the Internet and the iPhone?

You can nit-pick history all you want but just remember context. No one is saying there wasn't bad shit happening then. We also can see however, our founders got things right too. Some very important things.

Are we suppose to dismiss all their wisdom because some of it doesn't fit our modern day sensibilities and for that reason alone?

Also many of the founding father were kind of opposed to slavery. They just felt the compromise was warranted to get shit done becasue they needed the financial and material support of slave owners to pull of the revolution.

I often wonder how the original federal goverment would have worked out were it not for individual states refusing to honor other states contract and currency and imposing insane import and export tarriffs for goods traveling thru from one state another

DrCos:

The difference is the conglomerates or corporations will not be held accountable for their actions.

And the corporates and conglomerates are the ones who can afford to pay for the politicians necessary to enact laws that specifically target the smaller industries for their shortcuts.

Jim P. -I've been around on this blog for many years. Try a search of comments. I just don't have the time to comment very much. I always come because I like Amy's prolific writing and I'm hoping to see comments by Crid, who can be insufferable but brilliant. I meant what I said. Invoking the founding fathers isn't a slam dunk, nor should it ever be. I'm thankful for the republican government they started, and especially those whom are responsible for the Bill of Rights, but trying to have a fuller view of them as the flawed compromising individuals they were, makes them in my eyes far from saints. They were complicit in allowing slavery to persist- therefore moral cowards, not heroes. And I could give fuck all if you want to be gentle or not. I'm not here to make friends. I come to read the writing. You aren't one of the good ones worth reading very often. I won't pretend to be a good writer myself. I'm just a blue collar schmoe.

And, I'm not jumping from the point. I'm attacking her premise invoking the fucking founding fathers. In my opinion, they aren't a slam dunk worth invoking as an end all be all slam dunk issue settled we shouldn't have to think about it anymore argument. Savvy?

Abersouth, I find it amazing that so many yell about the Founders for failing to make universal humans rights instantly available to all.

It tells me that such a person has no idea about reality. To analogize, you don't get to be a vegan until there is a surplus of food.

It remains that the inspection process is flawed, but not the reason for inspections. Wealth envy - of corporations, somehow always worth billions - isn't going to change that.

You've got far better chances of being poisoned by buying burger at Vons than buying half a steer from a rancher. You can see the steer. You can have it inspected, if you like. You can have it cut up at the locker plant and frozen. I grew up with meat right off the hoof, and I'm very healthy. Frankly, I don't really trust food if I can't see the actual source.
Mad Cow was spread in the UK by people feeding cows junk. No free range, grass fed cow developed Mad Cow.

If people want to run the risk of buying from an uninspected farmer let them.

And again, when they get seriously ill, and become long term disabled, and they end up on the government dole for the rest of their lives, why the hell should I be paying for their choice?

Now, if they're willing to forgo that, and take their chances with their kinfolk looking after them, then that's one thing.

But a lot of people want to be free to do what they want, but when it all goes to shit then they want that safety net to catch them if they fall. Sorry, but "no consequences freedom" isn't.

I can't ever forget that much of our founding freedom documents was very much poisoned

That's fine. I get it.

You can go some where else were they have better, unpoisoned founding documents. Let me know where that is, BTW.

Aersouth: Crid, who can be insufferable but brilliant.

Well, you're half-right. Now that you mention it, he hasn't been around lately, has he? Please don't jinx it.

Radwaste- I think I grok you. Am I wrong though? Just as it is foolish to yell about how they weren't perfect, can it not also be foolish to invoke them as if they presided over halcyon days of their own making? Let us not forget that they laid the seeds for the Civil War by not addressing the issue of slavery completely. I can not let them off the hook for that. Their legacy to me is a mixed bag with largely good intentions, but good intentions mean fuck all.

I think understand your analogy, if you are trying to illustrate a cart leading the horse analogy anyways. Concerning reality and health inspectors, well, I dated a health inspector for three years so I will lean on that experience to illustrate that I have some knowledge of the reality of how it goes. I largely think their job is a make work job. I met my ex's friends and it was hard for me to deduce the value they added to society. I saw them shut down a few businesses though, because of little regulations such as having a dented tomato can or not having the money to invest in the health inspectors new favorite gadget. I also got to witness petty gripes about how so and so was a worthless inspector and so and so was asking a waitress out at whatever restaurant right before he even did his inspection and was completely oblivious to how he was engaging in a conflict of interest. I know the employees got pressured to find problems to show they were doing something while they were out in the field, because otherwise they weren't getting funded. Conflict of interest? You betcha, but it makes the appearance that they were doing something. And when the inspectors would swap territories, the ratings would swap as well. There is no standard. They made shit up as they went. A restaurant would go from being rated great one month to the next month being really bad, all the while the restaurant changing none of their practices. Please illustrate what value was added having it inspected? Bureaucracies take on their own self important mission. I'm skeptical of their worth in this case.

If we have to have some sort of solution to this "problem", I would put my vote to something that is more market oriented. Some private insurance where the food producers/sellers can show what they are doing to insure safe food, having backers to pay off liability if people are poisoned. I think incentives could be aligned much better in such a case than government stooges sent out to find something wrong, justifying their own existence. That happens, I've seen it.

Mr Darth- you completely miss my point, which means I'm again no good as a writer. Invoking them in the first place is not needed. There are so many angles to attack this subject of food safety. Pining for the good old days when everyone was free and happy doesn't work. It's stupid. We haven't had a fall from grace.

Sorry Darth, I assumed you were male. I don't really know your gender.

Mad cow is from an overload of prions concentrated in the brain. It only becomes a problem when an animal with said prions is fed to another animal, which is fed to another.....on down the chain. Or, one animal that is fed LOTS of prion-filled meat from lots of other animals. It takes time for the prions to become concentrated enough to cause disease in a human. Any farm that is grinding up animals parts to feed their animals is not going to be able to keep that secret if people are visiting their farm (to buy from the farm). Plus, only really big conglomerates can get enough beef out into enough people quickly enough, to cause an epidemic of it. A smallish farm simply can't cause that sort of damage.

Hubby and I are really working on getting some land. We will raise our own cow for slaughter every summer, have our own chickens running around, have a pig. Idyllic. In the meantime, I'll take backyard eggs from just about anyone over store eggs.

And Bountiful Baskets is great for straight from the farm produce, economically.

Momof4: "In the meantime, I'll take backyard eggs from just about anyone over store eggs."

Amen to that! fresh eggs have flavor - store bought ones don't.

And Amy will love this - the best bacon I've ever had is the bacon (and of course, save the fat for stir-frying greens in) from pigs we raised ourselves.

I'm in favor of government consumer protections but the question is when does the "protection" become a burden? (burden, in some cases, is too light a word)

Were we breaking the law when we sold our surplus eggs to neighbors - without inspections? Were we breaking the law when we shared our extra bacon with friends without any inspections?

(seriously, "extra" bacon? Looking back we really shouldn't have given away that "extra" bacon - we should have kept it for ourselves)

I totally get it - our shared farm-fresh stuff was safe because we were eating it ourselves and my father wouldn't have allowed us to eat it if he thought it wasn't safe. But, I also get that not everyone selling their produce (or other product) would act the same way.

Good luck momof4 and I hope it comes soon so your 4 can have a great experience before they leave home. Love my eggs. Would like to do a cow but afraid I'd make it a pet like I do everything else.

Would like to do a cow but afraid I'd make it a pet like I do everything else. -- Dave B at July 21, 2013 12:41 PM

Name it Hamburger, or Wellington or something similar. That should help.

Get a male and dont castrate it, with no other cows around it will see you as the other male it needs to dominate, by the time slaughter rolls around you'll be so sick of its shot that you are looking forward to killing it.

Also, build a 6 foot fence, and investing a a shock line, those mofos can jump

I buy dairy and organic honey from a local organic farm. They're inspected by the state, and more importantly by me. I buy my veggies from various smallholders, u-pics and honor-system stands. I can see exactly what I'm getting, and ask questions of the grower. I get everything from duck eggs to little fancy pastel eggs from fowl I'm shooing away from my feet. My meat comes from a small family-owned farm/slaughterhouse. They'll process my animals or sell me some they raised. They are a clean, humane, one at a time operation that I can and have inspected.

I grew up farming, so I have an advantage in knowing what to look for, but it ain't rocket science. Clean places with healthy animals. Just bear in mind that smelling shit is better than smelling chemicals on the farm. I see/smell where my food comes from on a weekly basis. I've also been through a large Cargill beef plant and know folks who work at chicken factories, and I don't want that in my foodchain.

I don't think the government can quash this as easily as they think they can. People who want the potentially dangerous stuff like raw milk will find raw milk dealers much like marijuana users will find marijuana dealers. Government may drive it underground but they won't stop it.

My state fined a local mom&pop store for selling pies made by their grandmother, because the pies were not baked in the store. So we locals quietly ask for the "Scoff-law Pie List" concealed in the cash register. Pies are discreetly fetched from an old pie safe in the back room. It adds intrigue to our rural days, and we enjoy thumbing our noses at authority almost as much as we enjoy Mamaw's rhubarb pie with the yummy lard crust.

?Two hundred years from now, what do you think our descendants will surmise from partial birth abortion practices and single motherhood (and the government's monetary support of them)?"

That it was too little, too late, and now we have to neutron-bomb the megacity San Angeles from orbit and reduce the population by another four billion, which should bring Earth's population down to a cozy 75 billion humans.

Soylent Green is people.

Also many of the founding father were kind of opposed to slavery. They just felt the compromise was warranted to get shit done becasue they needed the financial and material support of slave owners to pull of the revolution.

So their personal objection to slavery didn't mean much, then. But it does illustrate one way in which things were better then than they are today: Politicians weren't so committed to ideological purity that were completely incapable of getting anything done.

I'd rather have the inspectors make random showings at the places of production and let them sell to whom they want. The middlemen take too much.

I'd rather have the inspectors make random showings at the places of production and let them sell to whom they want. The middlemen take too much. -- NicoleK at July 22, 2013 1:59 PM

The problem is that when you have "city boys" come out and inspect a "non-standard" thing like a farming slaughter house you run into issues of there are cobwebs or spider webs in the corner because they haven't slaughtered a cow in three months. But that is unacceptable by the corporate standards.

Meanwhile the butcher has a 50PSI hose he thoroughly washes everything down with before he slaughters the cow.

So I have questions about setting default "standards".

Those who wish to keep Uncle Sam out of their transaction should be allowed to do so. -- Amy Alkon at July 22, 2013 8:32 PM

I thoroughly agree. I'm just trying to lead the sheeple into the light.