The current Washington agenda may not have been explicitly designed to destroy the American working class -- but it's hard to tell the difference. The latest thing, being backed by both parties, is the combination of the hazy legal status for illegals -- under which they can be paid less than the legal minimum wage -- and the minimum wage being jacked up (possibly by an unconstitutional executive order). This puts working-class Americans at such an enormous competitive disadvantage that it's guaranteed to put about 10M more citizens out of work.

Mr. Friedman was correct as to to a welfare state being unsustainable with open immigration. As it turns out, however, I'm perfectly okay with bankrupting our welfare state, especially if all it will take is more freedom (immigration freedom, in this case).

If someone wants to live in this country, why should I have any more say over that decision than the decision of which healthcare plan they should purchase?

"In no other country does breaking the law get you a prize -- and certainly not one so precious as American citizenship."

They have "earned" that right because Democrats believe that they will vote Democrat. Heck, they might even turn out to be more loyal Democrat voters than dead people!

I believe it was Thomas Sowell who said:

"No society ever thrived because it had a large and growing class of parasites living off those who produce."

Well, now– if all you have to do to get your drugs legalized is break the law, why shouldn't someone use the same tactic to get their citizenship legalized?

Debt cannot be piled on forever. That which is unsustainable will not be sustained, by definition.

I will also note that a bank robber violates actual property rights, whereas someone renting the house next door to me in violation of a federal law does not.

Earned? By campaigning for Democrats?

The welfare state will not be bankrupted. It has not yet. It will just keep piling on the debt.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 27, 2014 6:51 AM

It will become bankrupt in one form or another.

Either through hyper inflation, or repudiation of the debt.

Neither are exactly bankruptcy, because governments shield themselves by printing more money, but it lead to the same outcomes.

Price controls followed by shortages, followed by a black market economy overwhelming the official one, which then causes tax revenue to fall, and eventually government paralysis and democracy being replaced usually by a dictatorship.

@ Radwaste: "Well, now– if all you have to do to get your drugs legalized is break the law . . ."

There's no law against voting, yet. In Washington the voters passed Initiative 502. In Colorado they passed Amendment 64. If the Feds want to challenge these laws as unconstitutional, there's a system in place.
Rather, I'd take issue with the people charged with enforcing our immigration laws coming out and saying they'd rather not.

I have zero problem with illegal immigrants, it's the people who hire them that piss me off. Who think it is ok to use slave labor from third world countries.

And don't give me this shit that it's Democrats because I worked for several Republican guys, conservative as they get guys who hired nothing but illegals. That is the way in all manufacturing including for expensive shit and shit made overseas (yes even computers and phones have components probably made by an illegal).

They don't want to pay the taxes and they sure as hell don't want to pay them wages. And they are ok with them using public welfare to subsidize their families and healthcare. This is AMERICANS who are ok with this so they can pocket more money at your expense.

And Rad as to your little drug hissy fit there is only one group of people that I have seen stop illegals from entering the country-drug cartels. Apparently illegals have been bad for business so these guys keep the borders clean.

"Neither are exactly bankruptcy, because governments shield themselves by printing more money, but it lead to the same outcomes."

As near as I can tell, it only stopped in Weimar Germany when it became physically impossible for the government to inflate the currency fast enough. They were doing things like taking used bills and overprinting them to re-denominate them. It's easier today since the Fed can create billions of new dollars with a few keystrokes, but all that does is create new money in the Fed's own accounts -- there's still a lot of process involved in getting that money into the hands of people who need/want to spend it. Of course, people who have good political connections will get first crack at that money, and will have the most opportunity to trade it for harder assets before it becomes devalued again. To an extent this is already happening.

"Apparently illegals have been bad for business..."

Posted by: Ppen at January 27, 2014 8:45 AM

How so? I've never heard that before.

...
To make hiring illegal immigrants unattractive, give them citizenship. To stop illegal immigration, crack down on the companies that would rather risk the occasional fine than pay the greater costs associated with hiring US citizens.

@Cousin Dave. Yep, Real inflation is running about 12 percent per year, based on my guesstimates.

They try and hide it by factoring in some tech products which are going down in real dollars, and cherry picking their data, but for consumables like ammo, food, dental work, etc, prices are sky high and still rising.

Looking for a modern day example, read up on Argentina.

...
To make hiring illegal immigrants unattractive, give them citizenship. To stop illegal immigration, crack down on the companies that would rather risk the occasional fine than pay the greater costs associated with hiring US citizens.

Posted by: Michelle at January 27, 2014 12:20 PM

How about we try sealing the borders first, and reduce the costs of hiring Americans by getting rid of about a thousand pages of regulations and taxes, including Obamacare?

Big firms can negotiate the regulations, they help write them. Small businesses either break the law to compete or go out of business.

Giving them citizenship just encourages more illegal
immigration.

Im guessing that you are maybe too young to really remember the big immigration fix in the 1980s which didn't really work, because the democrats gutted enforcement, the first chance they got.

I no longer believe in political "fixes" like amnesty, because enforcement, and border control will never take place.

We don't need to be providing a safety valve up here in the US to keep the corrupt Mexican thugs, funded by the drug cartels, in power.

It's just the payoff for signing NAFTA.

Corporations will out.

Michelle,

Basically the guys who traffic people have been at war with the guys who traffic drugs.

It is an interesting occurrence where drug guys, people guys, gun guys, and mercenaries have an uneasy truce that breaks apart from time to time.

Isab -
I am too young to have stumbled across that in daily life in my hometown.

In the 90s I worked at a homeless shelter in Arizona. When Immigration rolled in, the shelter would have an increase in single Latino men of uncertain citizenship, men who were suddenly and inexplicably fired from their jobs - until the inspection was over, and they were rehired. In the interim, native English speakers were hired in their place and briefly left the shelter; these were generally deeply damaged and dysfunctional people.

My view is arguably based on a sharply skewed sample.

Is there a credible online source tha come to mind for a comprehensive look at the numbers (people, dollars, regulations)?

I'd happily wave a wand and have the ACA disappear, but I think regulations intended to protect people from Triangle Shirt Waist factory type tragedies, or from companies that would offload externalities such as water and air pollution onto people who don't get a share of the profits, are a proper use of federal government in defense of U.S. Citizens.

Tightly sealed borders make me nervous - the fence works in both directions.

Ppen - Fascinating. I had no idea.

Is there a credible online source tha come to mind for a comprehensive look at the numbers (people, dollars, regulations)?

I'd happily wave a wand and have the ACA disappear, but I think regulations intended to protect people from Triangle Shirt Waist factory type tragedies, or from companies that would offload externalities such as water and air pollution onto people who don't get a share of the profits, are a proper use of federal government in defense of U.S. Citizens.

Tightly sealed borders make me nervous - the fence works in both directions.

Ppen - Fascinating. I had no idea.

Posted by: Michelle at January 27, 2014 2:26 PM

Most labor law and regulations are not designed to protect the environment or workers. They are designed to favor big business over small business, and union shops over non union shops.
The large unionized businesses have the resoruces to obey the pages and pages of regulations they helped write.

Most environmental regulations have done nothing to increase worker safety or make the envionment noticibly cleaner. Instead they have driven almost all heavy industry out of the United States to overseas locations where workers are less safe and less well paid then they would be in the U.S

Your fear of "fences" has been manipulated by those who profit from a porous border. It works the same way as all the anti gun propaganda. It keeps you and others from critcally examining, and identifying the difference between fencing something in, and fencing it out.

Having worked ten miles from the former East German border I am cognizant of the difference.

The country that cannot or will not control their borders, loses their national character, followed quickly by their economic properity.

As Amy pointed out, and Milton Friedman said. "You can have a welfare state, or open borders, not both"

The immigration reform did something very useful in the 1980's. It provided lots of work for forgers, and increased the cost of getting into the US and working here ten fold because you have to add the cost of forged documents to your "coyote " to become employed in the U.S

The fake green cards are quite good. So good, they will pass any employer inspection. I have worked a lot of contract management for the federal government. A coworker once detected illegal aliens working on a secure government site only by noticing that some of the green cards had duplicate numbers. How do you tell who has the real green card and the fake one, when six of the employees are all 5'6 with brown eyes and black hair?

The employers that hired these people had no legal way to question the validity of the forged documents. Are these the same companies you want to fine into oblivion?

The companies that will be sued for a civil rights violation if they question one Hispanic's immigration status, who is here legally, and fined out of existence if they miss one that doesnt belong here?

Thank you for the fuller perspective.

Still antsy about sealing the border - would rather take a welfare state down than put a wall up.

I think I would have to do a lot more reading before advocating a different approach, but you've given me something to look for and consider. Thanks again.

"Huh? Of course, this is not what happened."

Really? Marijuana usage in the United States (totally illegal everywhere until recently) is not the primary driver for the legalization of marijuana in the United States?

Wow. Apparently I offend potheads - who cannot understand that the extent to which marijuana users break the law has effectively done the same thing as the flood of immigrants breaking the law.

In both cases, there are powerful advocates for normalizing what is already in place, Regardless of its legality today!

Maybe I can clarify this:

Don't like the law against marijuana usage? Just break the law, and continue to do so, until it is impractical to enforce the law. Then, you can argue for its being made legal.

Don't like the laws against illegal immigration? Just break those laws, and continue to do so, until it is impractical to enforce those laws. Then, you can argue for it's being made legal.

Now, if you support what has actually been done in the case of marijuana, then, to be consistent you will have to support illegal immigration.

You wouldn't want to be hypocritical.

"the US and working here ten fold because you have to add the cost of forged documents to your "coyote " to become employed in the U.S"

You're wrong about this. "Coyotes" wont forge shit for you and most employers don't care anyways. I'm not sure how it's done on the accounting side -we all knew how our whole staff was illegal. Yes, there is always the one person that is shocked, but we knew and we know.

(And I did have one of my gals-bribe the DMV for an authentic drivers license.)

Source: I'm a curious cat and ask all my Mexican illegal immigrant guys how it's done.

By the way, there is another parallel between illegal immigration and marijuana laws:

If I cannot provide identification, or challenge the lack of it for an employee, I cannot control my workforce or emplace any protection for my customers.

If I cannot provided objective standards for impairment due to marijuana use, I cannot control my workforce or emplace any protection for my customers.

Scenario: I have an employee with weed in his car at Savannah River Site. The date is 2016, and it's totally legal in SC. I have a company policy that prohibits use by radioactive material sample operators and so forth. An argument ensues between the supervisor and the employee about his fitness for duty, because the employee's eyes are red, he reeks of weed, but he insists he can do his job.

Show me how that one gets resolved. Really. Regulations and such are enforced. They have to be, because many people just plain won't volunteer to do things right a lot of the time.

@ Radwaste. Hell, you even offend people who aren't potheads. Let me put it this way, Sparky: Marijuana is one of the conversations we have amongst ourselves; 11 million border crashers haven't been invited into any conversation.
Among the 9 million people of WA and CO there were enough who recognize the negative value of the war on cannabis that they, as citizens of their sovereign states, made the decision to end a war they believe does more harm than good. Following that lead, AZ, NY, KY, AK, TN, and FL may have ballot initiatives in 2014 in favor of the legalization of marijuana. That's about another 53 million U.S. citizens weighing in on the decision. You too, can vote if you like. You are part of the conversation. Some day I hope my own state of California may join such a progressive movement.
The difference with illegal immigration is, it's illegal. Those people don't get a vote. They are not in the conversation. Among ourselves no state has stood up and said they will defy Federal immigration law. There's no hypocrisy; well, except from private employers. (I'm in construction, I know.) If you relish harpooning a hypocrite, pick Jethro Johnson. Secretary of "Homeland Security" (God, what a B.S. name). He took the job but apparently would rather grope girls at airports than patrol hot, dusty deserts. He's quite content to let the 11 million take my job, your job, and any welfare they can get.

"Still antsy about sealing the border - would rather take a welfare state down than put a wall up."

There we are in agreement, but since our social welfare system is a vote buying machine for the democratic party, making the border more secure, and, actually enforcing immigration laws, is about the only way to make citizenship mean something.

The welfare state isn't going anywhere, and the forgers will stay ahead of any paperwork "security" fixes or identification requirements.

"You're wrong about this. "Coyotes" wont forge shit for you and most employers don't care anyways. I'm not sure how it's done on the accounting side -we all knew how our whole staff was illegal. Yes, there is always the one person that is shocked, but we knew and we know"

I never implied that the Coyotes were also forgers. I just stated that after the immigration reforms of the 1980's. Illegal immigrants now had to pay both Coyotes for transportation AND a forger to get paperwork to work in the US.
There are a lot of illegals working in the US who are not standing on the corner outside of Home Depot. Some of them are in very high skill jobs, and speak perfect English.

All they need is one good stolen or purchased document to establish themselves as a legal citizen of the United States.

It is one of the major drivers of identity theft.

I don't doubt that a number of illegals work in communities where there are such huge numbers that everyone "knows" that most of them are illegal. I encounter people shopping in my local stores, who are undoubtedly illegal.

I have talked to soldiers in the US army who were from families that regularly crossed the border back and forth from Mexico. Some of the siblings were born in the US. Some in Mexico. If you don't believe that every single one of them could produce a borrowed US birth certificate, if needed, you are naive .

But "knowing" something, and proving it in a court of law are two different things. The second is much harder than the first, and even illegals in this country have due process rights.