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This piece about Harding & Kerrigan is kind of long, and it's about something most of us didn't much care about even when it was going on. But it makes great observations about one of the last gossipy scandals to happen before the internet. And it validates my presumptions about the character of everyone involved, including the Olympic people and the media.
Cousin Dave, I hope you get to to see this. But I posted my question about the Founding Fathers' support of the French Revolution on a Facebook page called, "American Living History Educational Society."
And I got a most thorough and informative response. I'll share it here:
Patrick: I have a question for American History buffs, if anyone can answer. It's something that's always confused me. Informed and objective historians realize that the American Revolution was basically another front upon which the war between England and France was fought. http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html
What I find so perplexing is why were the Founding Fathers so much in favor of the French Revolution, which claimed the heads of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Without Louis XVI, there would have been no United States (or at least not until much later). For the Founding Fathers to support the Revolution which resulted in his execution seems like such profound ingratitude. So, why did the Founding Fathers turn on Louis XVI like this? http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.htmlI'm
www.cracked.com
David: It is my understanding, as an avid 18th century historian, that the only Founding Fathers to actively support the murderous revolutionaries in France was Jefferson, with Madison less so. Washington, Adams, and Hamilton were BIG supporters of the French King but also believed in the voice of the people through parliamentary action. When the French Revolution went "south" (apologies to our Confederate members), the official American foreign policy was neutral but openly sided with their Mother Country against the French revolutionaries - hence the American Naval "War" with France in the 1790s. During the French revolution, Rochambeau, DeGrasse, Lafayette, D'Stange all went to prison, the two admirals being executed as was most French officers who fought in America. Washington offered asylum to all French Royalists but the measure was defeated in the face of Jeffersonian opposition so Washington acted on the first recorded "Executive Order" and offered it anyway. The people of the Southern states and New York largely supported Washington and the Federalist Party's foreign policy while New England, anxious to pinch off the domination of British trade, sided with largely with the French revolutionaries. The affair of the "Little Sarah" finally crushed French support in the US when the armed schooner Little Sarah was illegally armed and provisioned in Boston with aid from Jefferson and his supporters to attack British merchant ships in the name of the French Republic. The mobs attacked a party of US Marines who were sent to confiscate the vessel, crying "Long Live France and death to the tyrant Washington!" That event changed most minds in that the French were conspiring to attack the US in her own harbours if they did not support France. So, the French Republic was not officially recognized until 1800 with the rise of Napoleon along with the Louisiana Purchase. In short, it is an illustration that the USA was never against the establishment of Monarchy as a legitimate government, but was against it HERE in these shores.
David: As for the part the American Revolution was part of a larger war with France, I agree to the extant that the colonials cause of Independence is a lot more complicated that what is celebrated. Not one of the rebels actually believed that independence would be actually be achieved but that a political settlement favouring the Americans would be reached in that the British would win all the battles and the rebel army would remain intact and functioning - hence, the need of a political settlement (MINUS the "no taxation without representation" clause - Franklin and Adams successfully killed that in 1775. It was just a slogan.). When the American victory at the battles around Frazer's Farm (now called Saratoga) brought France into the war and for the first time, the American actually thought they could win independence. It was largely due to Franklin that the American colonials were MORE than happy to become the Junior partners in a global war led by France and included Spain and The Netherlands against Britain. Yorktown was a French plan and victory with Washington largely on the sidelines. However, I stand with John Adams - "I care not who wins in the end as long as they support us. If the Great Mogal himself drew Brtiish power elsewhere, than I am happy to be called a Hindoo (sic)! " It is ironic that the global war was ultimately won by Britain at the cost of losing her American colonies.
David: Here's a thought for debate sometime - Since the British gained far more by losing the American Colonies, whereas the Spanish and French Colonies in the West Indies and India being taken by Britain at the cost of her American possessions, then can it be said that the British Empire - the most powerful and far reaching empire the world has ever seen - is due to the...wait for it... THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION?! Is George Washington actually responsible for the rise of the British Empire?!! Hmmmmm........
Patrick: Thank you very much for a most comprehensive answer. I've read it carefully once, and will go over it again, shortly. So, the only REAL supporter among the Founding Fathers was Jefferson, with Madison a distant second? It seems I erred when I assumed that Jefferson support was a consensus.
David: Depends on what you read. The Jeffersonians in congress were pretty powerful so it can be seen that way. Hamilton and the Federalists had only a slight majority and were distrusted by many.
Damn, that's like poking the tiger at the zoo - while you're inside the cage.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers
at January 8, 2014 12:56 AM
At least the "baddass" dude is natural.
Patrick
at January 8, 2014 4:55 AM
Patrick, I saw it, and thank you for all that. I'll read it tonight.
Cousin Dave
at January 8, 2014 11:34 AM
Glad you saw it, Cousin Dave. I thought it was pretty interesting myself. Nice to know that it wasn't all Founding Fathers who felt that way. And it was, in fact, just a small but very vocal minority.
This piece about Harding & Kerrigan is kind of long, and it's about something most of us didn't much care about even when it was going on. But it makes great observations about one of the last gossipy scandals to happen before the internet. And it validates my presumptions about the character of everyone involved, including the Olympic people and the media.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 12:51 AM
Tat.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 12:53 AM
How cold is it? Crooks want to go back to jail.
Jim P. at January 7, 2014 9:56 AM
Terminal Insecurity.
Jim P. at January 7, 2014 10:40 AM
Amy;
This is hilarious and I thought you would appreciate it....
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=649968551732457&set=a.482923421770305.109729.482916641770983&type=1&theater
wtf at January 7, 2014 10:59 AM
Har.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 2:15 PM
If you like Louis CK, you'll like the cartoon of his boat story.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 2:58 PM
Whoops, sorry.
('Computers!,' right? I know!)
If you like Louis CK, you'll like the cartoon of his boat story.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 3:05 PM
Cousin Dave, I hope you get to to see this. But I posted my question about the Founding Fathers' support of the French Revolution on a Facebook page called, "American Living History Educational Society."
And I got a most thorough and informative response. I'll share it here:
Patrick: I have a question for American History buffs, if anyone can answer. It's something that's always confused me. Informed and objective historians realize that the American Revolution was basically another front upon which the war between England and France was fought. http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html
What I find so perplexing is why were the Founding Fathers so much in favor of the French Revolution, which claimed the heads of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Without Louis XVI, there would have been no United States (or at least not until much later). For the Founding Fathers to support the Revolution which resulted in his execution seems like such profound ingratitude. So, why did the Founding Fathers turn on Louis XVI like this?
http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.htmlI'm
www.cracked.com
David: It is my understanding, as an avid 18th century historian, that the only Founding Fathers to actively support the murderous revolutionaries in France was Jefferson, with Madison less so. Washington, Adams, and Hamilton were BIG supporters of the French King but also believed in the voice of the people through parliamentary action. When the French Revolution went "south" (apologies to our Confederate members), the official American foreign policy was neutral but openly sided with their Mother Country against the French revolutionaries - hence the American Naval "War" with France in the 1790s. During the French revolution, Rochambeau, DeGrasse, Lafayette, D'Stange all went to prison, the two admirals being executed as was most French officers who fought in America. Washington offered asylum to all French Royalists but the measure was defeated in the face of Jeffersonian opposition so Washington acted on the first recorded "Executive Order" and offered it anyway. The people of the Southern states and New York largely supported Washington and the Federalist Party's foreign policy while New England, anxious to pinch off the domination of British trade, sided with largely with the French revolutionaries. The affair of the "Little Sarah" finally crushed French support in the US when the armed schooner Little Sarah was illegally armed and provisioned in Boston with aid from Jefferson and his supporters to attack British merchant ships in the name of the French Republic. The mobs attacked a party of US Marines who were sent to confiscate the vessel, crying "Long Live France and death to the tyrant Washington!" That event changed most minds in that the French were conspiring to attack the US in her own harbours if they did not support France. So, the French Republic was not officially recognized until 1800 with the rise of Napoleon along with the Louisiana Purchase. In short, it is an illustration that the USA was never against the establishment of Monarchy as a legitimate government, but was against it HERE in these shores.
David: As for the part the American Revolution was part of a larger war with France, I agree to the extant that the colonials cause of Independence is a lot more complicated that what is celebrated. Not one of the rebels actually believed that independence would be actually be achieved but that a political settlement favouring the Americans would be reached in that the British would win all the battles and the rebel army would remain intact and functioning - hence, the need of a political settlement (MINUS the "no taxation without representation" clause - Franklin and Adams successfully killed that in 1775. It was just a slogan.). When the American victory at the battles around Frazer's Farm (now called Saratoga) brought France into the war and for the first time, the American actually thought they could win independence. It was largely due to Franklin that the American colonials were MORE than happy to become the Junior partners in a global war led by France and included Spain and The Netherlands against Britain. Yorktown was a French plan and victory with Washington largely on the sidelines. However, I stand with John Adams - "I care not who wins in the end as long as they support us. If the Great Mogal himself drew Brtiish power elsewhere, than I am happy to be called a Hindoo (sic)! " It is ironic that the global war was ultimately won by Britain at the cost of losing her American colonies.
David: Here's a thought for debate sometime - Since the British gained far more by losing the American Colonies, whereas the Spanish and French Colonies in the West Indies and India being taken by Britain at the cost of her American possessions, then can it be said that the British Empire - the most powerful and far reaching empire the world has ever seen - is due to the...wait for it... THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION?! Is George Washington actually responsible for the rise of the British Empire?!! Hmmmmm........
Patrick: Thank you very much for a most comprehensive answer. I've read it carefully once, and will go over it again, shortly. So, the only REAL supporter among the Founding Fathers was Jefferson, with Madison a distant second? It seems I erred when I assumed that Jefferson support was a consensus.
David: Depends on what you read. The Jeffersonians in congress were pretty powerful so it can be seen that way. Hamilton and the Federalists had only a slight majority and were distrusted by many.
Patrick at January 7, 2014 3:27 PM
Remember these kids?
We talked about it.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 3:31 PM
Bubba cain't read.
Sure can throw hisself some footballs, tell you what.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 7, 2014 4:30 PM
Good one.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 4:38 PM
> cain't read.
Aw now, Boys don't be needin' no book-larin' for their pro-feshnill Innerdip Soshin'!
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 4:47 PM
American heroes, complete with badges and uniforms.
Arrested for faking 9/11 health claims.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 7, 2014 5:08 PM
Baddass.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 7, 2014 5:42 PM
"Baddass."
Damn, that's like poking the tiger at the zoo - while you're inside the cage.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 8, 2014 12:56 AM
At least the "baddass" dude is natural.
Patrick at January 8, 2014 4:55 AM
Patrick, I saw it, and thank you for all that. I'll read it tonight.
Cousin Dave at January 8, 2014 11:34 AM
Glad you saw it, Cousin Dave. I thought it was pretty interesting myself. Nice to know that it wasn't all Founding Fathers who felt that way. And it was, in fact, just a small but very vocal minority.
Patrick at January 8, 2014 3:07 PM
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