but wait ...

Islam is the religion of "peace".

Surely these students are mistaken and will be corrected. If not at home then here in the U.S.A.?

Right?

It's been really interesting to observe the non-response from the Cannes glitterati to this. They are hoping that the whole issue will go away and be forgotten about, and never mind what happens to Hatami. There is so much sympathy in Hollywood for absolutely anything that is anti-West and anti-American that it trumps not only their supposed concern for women's rights, but also their basic sense of decency.

plus there was the matter of how her headscarf didn't totally cover Leila Hatami's hair

Vile temptress!

Bob, of course it is the religion of peace. They're trying to save our precious bodily fluids from vile temptresses.

"the proud and martyrs breeding nation of Iran" They seem a bit edgy over there. And this was from a group of students. They sound like getting fitted for a dynamite vest is a rite of passage. If it ever goes off then they can be a full-blown Muslim. (Sorry)

...the Hizbullah Students organisation called for Hatami to be flogged for "kissing a strange man".

I wonder how many students the Hizbullah Students organization actually represents.

And if they're connected with Hezbollah, the terrorist organization in Lebanon.

There is so much sympathy in Hollywood for absolutely anything that is anti-West and anti-American that it trumps not only their supposed concern for women's rights, but also their basic sense of decency. ~ Posted by: Cousin Dave at May 23, 2014 6:31 AM

Sense of decency? Hollywood?

These are the same people who think Roman Polanski did nothing wrong and is being "persecuted" by the government.

"These are the same people who think Roman Polanski did nothing wrong and is being 'persecuted' by the government."

Good point. Makes me wonder how popular Charles Manson would be with the Hollywood types, had he not committed the faux pas of murdering one of their own.

And I'm sure the use of "student", in this context, is more along the lines of the Junior Anti-Sex League than it is scholars.

Conan: I wonder how many students the Hizbullah Students organization actually represents.

I wonder:

1. what percentage of Muslims actually believe that a woman should be flogged for "kissing a strange man."

2. what percentage of Muslims believe that according to people on this blog.

I'm not sure what the two percentages are but I'm reasonably certain that the percentage in #2 would be higher (perhaps much higher) than the percentage in #1.

JD, you should also make allowance for socio-economic conditions.

How many of those Muslims in #1 who believe she should be flogged are living under a religious theocracy or a brutal dictatorship using religion as a means of oppression and how many are living in Europe or the US?

Would the percentages of positive responses be different depending upon socio-economic conditions?

An interesting kernel of information in Mark Bowden's Guests of the Ayatollah was that the US hostages described the "students" holding them as being unsophisticated about the world and ignorant of the world outside of Iran. And several of these were students in sophisticated subjects, too.

Early in the hostage drama, the Iranian "students" let African-American embassy workers go free to show their solidarity with the oppressed peoples of America. They could not conceive that the oppressive US government would allow them access to sensitive information. In doing so, they let go the very CIA employee who could have been forced to decode documents that they later had to try to decode themselves with only modest success.

Cousin Dave: There is so much sympathy in Hollywood for absolutely anything that is anti-West and anti-American...

Examples?

Conan, I think that even if we took a subset of all Muslims -- say only Muslims living in Iran -- the percentage in #2 would be higher than the percentage in #1.

the US hostages described the "students" holding them as being unsophisticated about the world and ignorant of the world outside of Iran

Not surprising. This was, after all, pre-internet.

Not surprising. This was, after all, pre-internet. ~ Posted by: JD at May 23, 2014 12:37 PM

These were university students. You'd expect them to more sophisticated and a little bit worldly, at least more so than the population at large.

And they were markedly ignorant compared to the experiences of the US embassy staff in dealing with university students in and from other countries.

Pre-Internet or no, that's a pretty alarming statement about the level of sophistication found in Iranian universities.

Pre-Internet? Consider:

"According to the United Nations’ Arab Human Development Reports, less than 2% of Arabs have access to the Internet. Arabs represent 5% of the world’s population and yet produce only 1% of the world’s books, most of them religious. In fact, Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century."

And, yes, I know Persians don't consider themselves to be Arabs. They resent being lumped together with the Arabs, in fact. And don't get me started on the Shi'a vs. Sunni aspects of their mutual antipathy.

However, the fact remains that this part of the world, ruled by religious fundamentalism and extremism, is not seeking to educate itself about the rest of the world and is rapidly sliding backwards into the 14th century.

I'll bite on JD's bait. TRIGGER ALERT!

I assume that your points are totally true, however they do not change the situation or the threat to anyone not agreeing w/the POV expressed by the students and the governments they live under.

Unfortunately, Muslims who do not or can not work to modify the harsh treatment advocated by the Islamic world upon non-believers and believers that disagree are not pertinent regardless of their numbers.

THEY DO NOT MATTER NOW BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN THE GAME. PERIOD. They will have to be taken in account at some point in the future when the spoils of war are to be divided, but right now, not so much.

JD, please please keep up the discussion. It's fun to read, but it is, at the end of the day, empty of substance.

However, the fact remains that this part of the world, ruled by religious fundamentalism and extremism, is not seeking to educate itself about the rest of the world and is rapidly sliding backwards into the 14th century.

Just because Ayatollah Khamenei is the "Supreme Leader" (that title cracks me up; the guy obviously has a supreme ego) of Iran doesn't mean that all (or even a vast majority) of Iranians are religious fundamentalists.

Are there Iranians who are not seeking to educate themselves about the rest of the world? Absolutely. Are there Iranians who long for the 14th century? Of course. Are there Iranians who believe women should be flogged for kissing a strange man and that gays and lesbians should be put to death? Yes. But there are also Iranians -- and, I'd bet, plenty of them -- who are not like that, who want to embrace the modern world.

What I see happening is a struggle between religious fundamentalists and those who are more moderate-to-liberal in many Arab & Muslim countries. I fervently hope that the more moderate-to-liberal forces eventually come out on top (or, as in the case of secular Turkey, stay on top.)

however they do not change the situation or the threat to anyone not agreeing w/the POV expressed by the students and the governments they live under.

I agree, Bob, and I never claimed otherwise. If Iranian law specifies that this woman be punished, then she may very well be punished, regardless of the percentage of Iranians who feel differently. Things likely will not fundamentally change in Iran until the "Supreme Leader" (HaHa) and the Revolutionary Guard are no longer calling the shots. But this, of course, will not easily be accomplished. As Danny Postel writes in Iran and the Future of Liberalism...

Under [theocratic police-state] conditions like these, liberalism is a radical political project. A triumphant Iranian liberalism would involve dismantling the entire apparatus of the reigning political order and constructing a dramatically different one. In the Iranian context, liberalism is a matter of life and death: people are literally putting their lives on the line when they write articles for opposition newspapers calling for an end to theocratic rule; when they take to the streets to participate in student demonstrations for democracy; when they publish a blog at an internet café that dares to criticize the régime’s human rights record.

What I see happening is a struggle between religious fundamentalists and those who are more moderate-to-liberal in many Arab & Muslim countries. ~ Posted by: JD at May 23, 2014 1:49 PM

A "struggle" indicates each side has a chance to win. In the case of religious fundamentalism dragging the Middle East into the Dark Ages, my impression is that the avalanche has started and it's too late for the pebbles to vote.

the avalanche has started and it's too late for the pebbles to vote

I like that image. Don't agree with it, but I like it.

Yor're cynical; I'm optimistic. I hope you end up being wrong and I end up being right.

Conan is quoting Kosh...
(Swirl of notes) Good.(End swirl)