Feminine sexual allure is a lantern, not a flashlight... The young, at least, don't get to choose who it shines on, only whether it's lit at all.

Have you tried Buspar yet? It is the only thing that works for me.

They took a white girl that has a body and hair that appeals to blacks and Hispanics. They put her in a tight outfit that outlines her curves and butt. Then they had her walk a fucking city full of said demographic and got that reaction from cultures that produce very few romantically timid men. Golly geez.

You might not want those men to talk to you....but I guarantee it's because they don't have all the looks and credentials you're looking for...admit it. Because suddenly when a man you desire asks you out it isn't harassment.

This is a nice little blog post.

It would be neat if someone with a perspective diametrically opposed to yours collected as many articulate, dispassionate considerations for us to review.

It won't happen.

You're right, Crid, and thanks. I wanted this to be thoughtful, so I waited to post it.

A guy in Times Square -- a black man -- once said to me, "Never seen a body like that on a white woman!"

He said this to me in the late 80s or early 90s. I still remember. Thanks, dude!

I knew a guy years ago (poor college student, so limiting mating potential) whose pick-up strategy was to go up to a woman in a bar and say "I think you're good looking and would really like to f*ck you. What do you say?" 80% of the time she'd ignore him. 10% of the time he'd get smacked, called a jerk, or have a drink thrown on him. 10% of the time he'd end up leaving with her.

I posted a link to this back on the 29th and this resposne

10 hours and 108 cat calls = 1 cat call once every 5 minutes and 55 seconds

The average person walks three miles per hour 3 * 10 = 30 miles

Range of human hearing for an elevated voice over background noise is up to 50 feet on each side

5280 ft per mile * 30 miles * 100 foot radius = 15,840,000 square feet recorded during walk

15840000 sq ft / 27878400 (sq ft per sq mile) = .57 square miles.

Population density of NYC per sq mile = 27,000

27,000 *.57 = 15,390 people walked passed during recording

Assuming 53/47 m/f stat is true = 8,157 males walked passed.

108/8,157 = 0.013

This doenst take into account more men are homeless, jobless, and blue collar workers on the street. So that 1.3% figure is even lower

Roughly 1% of the men she passed "harassed" her.

And that is assuming each cat call was made by a separate person, assuming multiple calls from singular men drops that to less than 1%

Now given she had an ax to grind she probably chose sections of town where she thought she would be harassed far more often - of course there is no way to verify or disprove my assumption so it is immaterial to these facts

So once every 6 minutes 1% of the population said something to her she found distasteful.

My god, arent ALL men just monsters, auditory rapists, who need to be kept from ever offending women?

Donate to day to stop this scourge!! Never mind about actual problems like rape and domestic violence, we gotta stop less than 1% of men saying things women dont like.

Also, I wonder how many of the things recorded would not have been considered harassing had they been said by George Clooney, or Bill Clinton?

Given the alleged "culture of rape", I'm surprised she wasn't raped a half dozen times. Wait...that wasn't the lesson I was supposed to draw from this?

PPen is right: these weren't the right men. Had it been George Clooney, it would have devolved into a sex tape in short order.

Amy, Normally I’d agree with you on how feminists have gone too far but I can’t on this one. I can’t agree with you on this nor any of the other commenters who think this woman is exaggerating on this issue. I was the white woman living in New York who often found herself the victim of this very thing.

Amy, Did you really say “strutting your stuff on the street in New York in painted-on clothing—as this girl was—you look like you’re looking for some male attention, and you’re likely to get it…”??

First of all, strutting? She was walking. On a public street. In the middle of the day. And, how is her clothing considered provocative? She’s dressed casually. If she were dressed in a short, tight skirt and low cut top, I could agree that she’s dressed in a way that is going to attract attention, but she’s not. She’s wearing skinny jeans, sneakers and a tee shirt, which happen to fit her body in a flattering way. Basically, she’s dressed like 99.9% of the young female population in NYC. I dress like that to go to the grocery store and I promise you, I’m in no way seeking attention. I dress because I like to look presentable, but I also dress for comfort. The curvature of her body is completely out of her control just as mine is. You suggest she and I should dress in a sack because we happen to have a great body to avoid unwanted advances? So, basically, you think she was ‘asking for it?” That’s the same argument my ex-boyfriend, my male boss, a female friend and my neighbor used on me when a man I’d denied giving my name to, after his ‘you got a nice ass, mami,” remark, followed me for two blocks from the subway then blocked me from entering my apartment. He refused to move until I told him my name. Unfortunately for this man, I’m trained in self-defense so the second he put his hands on me, I took him to the ground so he didn’t get very far, but what if I hadn’t been? Perhaps I should have acquiesced because clearly, I wanted it, why with strutting my ass in those jeans and all.

While this video seems excessively long, I damn well guarantee that this isn’t an overblown perception by some male-hating feminist. I’m willing to bet that she got for this video because she gets this every. Single. Day. while wearing similar clothes simply boarding the subway, or in her nice audition clothes walking down the street. NOTHING about the way she was dressed or the way she was walking implies that she was in any way seeking this sort of attention.

I’ve been thinking about this cat call video more than is probably healthy in the last few days. I think the reason is because, shamefully, once a upon a time, I was one of those women who tolerated it. When I lived in New York, catcalls were a daily occurrence and I thought nothing of them. I have vocalized in the past that I’m wasn’t super offended when a guy catcalled me. In fact, I felt flattered by a random stranger catcalling me. It gave me a boost of confidence. However, I can now also admit when I was in my twenties, I was extremely insecure and relied on the opinions of others validate my self-worth so it’s not surprising that I’d think nothing of men treating me as nothing more than an object for their amusement at the time. I’ve grown up since then. While I can acknowledge that men are visual creatures and enjoy looking at a pretty woman without labeling all of them misogynistic pigs and rapist, I’ve also learned the difference between a man complimenting a woman and respectfully enjoying the way she looks, and a man sexually harassing a woman.

This was not a blown up case of men ‘complimenting’ a woman. If most of them had simply said something about her appearance, and moved along, it likely wouldn’t be an issue. That’s not what happened. A good number of them behave as if her very existence justifies their sense of entitlement, and because she was an attractive woman, she owes them her attention simply because they said “hi”. The very nerve of one of them to comment on what’s polite after he’s made it clear that he doesn’t view her as a person but as an object for his amusement is insulting, at best. These men are harassers, plain and simple.

Anyone who would look at this video and think that this isn’t a problem is part of the problem.

These men have been taught to believe that they are entitled to a woman just because they exist. They’ve been allowed to believe that a woman ‘owes’ them her attention because he demands it. These men have been allowed to continue with this behavior because, sadly, women like me have allowed it in the past. Women, on the other hand, have been taught to believe that this is okay because “you know how men are.” We are taught that our value is in how we are perceived by others, especially men. We’ve been taught to be “nice” and not to make public spectacle of ourselves. We are told taught to respond politely when we ourselves are being treated rudely and to “be the bigger person.” We are taught that "mean just like to look at pretty girls, you should be flattered."

Fuck. That.

The only thing this woman should have done differently is speak up. You can tell by the look on this woman’s face that she was extremely uncomfortable, once to the point of being downright fearful toward the man following her. Imagine how differently things might have been for her if her boyfriend hadn’t been the camera man and she was really alone, as most women are when this happens? Or worse yet, if she wasn’t in the middle of a public street? The turning point for me was my experiance. That was when I learned to speak up. After that, when I was in a similar situation, I spoke up. A man actually followed me into an elevator on my way to work, pestering me the whole way for my number, after I'd already refused it. I was dressed in a Knee-length wrap dress and heels (work attire). I worked in a building on WALL STREET. This was at 8am. He kept saying “What, mami? You think you too good for me? What, you don’t date, gringa?” I called that jerk out. I confronted him publicly and demanded an apology. I told him, “You clearly mistake my silence for some strange signal to keep trying so let me make myself clear. It’s NOT okay that you followed me after I said no. It’s NOT okay that you continue to pester me for my number. I will NOT be giving you my number and if you don’t leave me alone, I’ll be calling the police. Now, if you have any decency left as a man, you’ll apologize to me. Then you’ll go home and hug whoever the women are in your life and apologize to them for your behavior too! How would you feel if someone did this to them?!”

If I were followed again like this woman had been, I’d make a scene in the middle of the sidewalk worthy of a Broadway musical instead of just silently dealing with it.

The audacity of Glenn Reynolds to even try to compare this to “Jim Crow” is appalling. This is anything but. A man of ANY race should not be allowed to treat women as if they are meat on display for their pleasure, nor, should anyone condone such an act. Demanding that men of minority race actually be encouraged to modify their behavior isn’t racist. I’m of the opinion it’s more racist to just accept that they can’t be educated because “well that’s just the way those people are.” But, if we are going to generalize an entire culture of men based on the way they interact with women, lets also not forget that this same culture of men, the men that catcall women, are the same who father multiple children with multiple women and are rarely ever ‘role models’ for these children. Is that really the culture we want to keep encouraging? Amy, you especially rail against those men but where do you think it starts? This shit right here. This is where it starts. This is the example that their children follow and the cycle continues. But I guess that’s okay, because… racism.

According to this, they appear to have spent a huge amount of their time in Harlem (https://medium.com/message/that-catcalling-video-and-why-research-methods-is-such-an-exciting-topic-really-32223ac9c9e8).

It should be noted that Hollaback does not appear to support laws against catcalling. So there's that.

You have to remember the rules of "sexual assault". (1)If he works in the mail room it is sexual harassment. (2)If he works in the executive suite it is sophisticated banter .

Next up in the damned if you don't damned if you do is: The guy who didn't say anything, but walked near her for a few minutes. That is his supposed crime, walking on a street that he lives on.
Why? because he is labeled creepy.
My guess in watching it, was he was protecting her by walking near her.

I watched a part of this clip, and could not help but notice that most of the catcalls come from off-camera. I listened to it closely, and I noticed some apparent audio artifacts. Some of the calls do not seem to be in the same reverberant space as the video itself. Further, some catcalls separated in time seem to be eeriely identical, as if they were sampled and played multiple time.

Conclusion: The audio has been edited, and at lesat some of the catcalls were overdubbed. J'accuse.

Further: Outside of my home area, I never ever interact with women in the street. If one of them gets hit by a car, I'm walking on past.

You have to remember the rules of "sexual assault". (1)If he works in the mail room it is sexual harassment. (2)If he works in the executive suite it is sophisticated banter .

You have to remember that men who spend time catcalling women on the street rarely make it to the executive suite.

And I'm not sure what universe you live in that it'd be acceptable there either.

There's a difference between "Damn mami, nice ass! Can I get your digits?" and "You look lovely today, miss. Have a great day." Hell, I'd even take a "nice ass!" as a compliment if the guy left it at that. It's the following her and the commenting on her silence that I'm refering too. That's crossing over the line from 'enjoying and complimenting a pretty girl' to 'I'm a creep who doesn't understand personal space and or know how to read social cues and certainly don't think this woman has any right to deny my advances.'

The one thing I'll agree on is thaat he has a right to say it, as per the first ammendment. He doesn't have a right to demand a response. THAT, to me, is the main issue.

"My dad told me to worry when they stop thinking you're hot."

But then new complaints will arise: She will be a victim of the patriarchal construct of feminine beauty, that men don't appreciate a "real" woman, they aren't attracted to "inner beauty", or some other such stuff.

She’s wearing skinny jeans, sneakers and a tee shirt, which happen to fit her body in a flattering way. Basically, she’s dressed like 99.9% of the young female population in NYC. I dress like that to go to the grocery store and I promise you, I’m in no way seeking attention.

I agree with everything you've written, Sabrina. This girl's outfit is my go-to, out-running-errands uniform. Skinny jeans, tall boots and a fitted tee. Infinity scarf if it's chilly. I didn't see anything attention-seeking or revealing about it.

Besides, the outfit doesn't matter. The key factor in whether I get men calling after me is whether I am Walking Alone Outside. I've been called at wearing a replica of the outfit above. I've been shouted at wearing much less and much more. I've been called at wearing a pencil skirt and blazer for work. I've been called at wearing my ugly jiu jitsu gi pants and a stained shirt with a wolf on it.

Specific compliments ("Girl, nice boots! Love the scarf") that don't require me to break my walking momentum are fine, and I usually smile. A guy yelling, "Hey! Hey! You're beautiful! Hey honey, look at me!" is annoying and rude, so I ignore it. If I then get called out for my refusal to respond (say 'thank you,' 'smile,' whatever) I usually say, "Not interested." I have been followed at close distance by a catcaller I ignored once in my life. In that occurrence, I walked over to a food truck being set up for the day and said, "Hey, this guy has been following me for the last block and making sexual comments. Do you mind if I duck inside your truck and call the police?" The catcaller hustled away.

And by "she" I mean that Soshanna chick, not Amy. Definitely not Amy..

I think there's another thing that just occured to me in watching it again... in the time she appeared that she wasn't alone (when one man followed her for four minutes), no catcalls.
When she was alone, catcalls.

This is telling to me. This means that these men believe thier behaviour is perfectly acceptable, and they can lay claim to this woman, because it will go unchallenged. Would any of these men had commented if she had been walking with her boyfriend in the same outfit on the same block?Would any of us had said "what do you expect when you strut down the street in tight clothes?" if her boyfriend had been present?
Doubtful.
I'm damn certain NONE of these men would have had the gall to reprimand her for ignoring them if her boyfriend had been with her.
So, it's okay to dengrate her if she's alone but inappropriate when she's not?

I'm sure someone will argue the bioloical response of the male seeking a mate but this goes beyond that. I'd buy that if these were wild animals in the jungle. We are talking about human beings.
No man has the right to demand a woman give him so much as a smile simply because he said "hi" and she's walking alone.

Now,I can see the argument by Joe J that maybe the guy who looks like he's following her was protecting her but then why wouldn't he SAY something. Like "Ma'am, do you mind if I walk with you for a few minutes? You look like you could use the back up." But, why would she suspect that the man following her might be 'protecting' her. He just showed up and started walking next to her. He made no eye contact nor offered her a single reassuring comment. After she's just endured hours of catcalls by strangers, I'm not gonna hold it against her for being a little jaded.

She could walk around all day in my town, and never hear a single catcall. But that would make for a boring video and no moral outrage.

Besides, the outfit doesn't matter. The key factor in whether I get men calling after me is whether I am Walking Alone Outside. I've been called at wearing a replica of the outfit above. I've been shouted at wearing much less and much more. I've been called at wearing a pencil skirt and blazer for work. I've been called at wearing my ugly jiu jitsu gi pants and a stained shirt with a wolf on it.

I'm surprised that no one else has commented on the 'woman walking alone' either here or on the other articles and blogs that are basically shaming this woman. Everyone is so determined to prove ths woman is over-racting that they are completely missing the obvious.
Like I said, if she had actually been wearing an outfit clearly meant to get her attention, and had truly been strutting her stuff, her arguement would be weak. So far, she's only guilty of being a pretty girl walking down the street alone in Harlem. (Harlem is a fantastic neighborhood, btw. Full of plenty of very nice people and great resturants. I've never felt unsafe there. This problem isn't limited to Harlem. I've been catcalled anywhere from Times Square to Jersey City. Maybe the woman actually, ya know, LIVES in Harlem and so that's where she limited her video project. But by all means, lets generalize some more folks.)

BTW.. I live in scarves. It's adds color without adding too many layers and because AC sucks in F

"Ma'am, do you mind if I walk with you for a few minutes"

Thinking a woman needs your protection, that is considered evil patriarcy support. So he would have gone from creepy to forcing stereotypes of week defenseless women.
Can't win.

Matt, do you live in a densly populated, mutli-ethnic city where walking is the most practical and popular means of getting to your desitantion?

Cuz if not then you're right. She's more likely to be in a car while getting from point A to point B where the opportunity for men to harrass her is limited to places like bars and grocery stores and shopping malls. And if far less frequency based on sheer size and population of the city alone.

Christ 1st off Sabrina human beings are animals. I don't know why everyone refuses to acknowledge this simple biological fact.

Secondly if you had read my breakdown You notice that less than 1% of the males within range of her bother to catch call her if you consider "Hi" a cat call.

Is me if I don't think zero .5 percent of the population saying shit you Don't like is not a big deal.

So F ING sick of feminists demonizing perfectly normal evolutionary biological behavior display by males.

While at the same time lionizing the exact same evolutionary biological responses in females.

"Is that really the culture we want to keep encouraging? Amy, you especially rail against those men but where do you think it starts? This shit right here. This is where it starts. This is the example that their children follow and the cycle continues. But I guess that’s okay, because… racism."

So you're saying women are responsive to the cat calls? The men can't have multiple children with multiple women unless the women respond to their sexual advances.

"They’ve been allowed to believe that a woman ‘owes’ them her attention because he demands it"

They've been taught no such thing. What they have been taught is to SEEK out attention from women. Quite a distinction. None of them got visibly angry or violent when ignored.

Maybe these guys just wanted to meet a woman and were out of ideas.

"Men are not subtle — men are obvious. Women know what men want. Men know what men want. What do we want? We want women! It's the only thing we know for sure: we want women! How do we get women? Oh, we don't know that. The next step after that we have no idea. This is why you see men honking car-horns, yelling from construction sites. These are the best ideas we've had so far. The car-horn honk, is that a beauty? Have you seen men doing this? What is this? The man is in the car, the woman walks by the front of the car, he honks. E-eeehh, eehhh, eehhh! This man is out of ideas. How does it…? E-e-e-eeeehhhh! "I don't think she likes me." The amazing thing is, that we still get women, don't we? Men, I mean, men are with women. You see men with women. How are men getting women, many people wonder. Let me tell you a little bit about our organization. Wherever women are, we have a man working on the situation right now. Now, he may not be our best man, okay, we have a lot of areas to cover, but someone from our staff is on the scene. That's why, I think, men get frustrated, when we see women reading articles, like "Where to meet men?" We're here, we are everywhere. We're honking our horns to serve you better." ~ Jerry Seinfeld

Lujlp.

Yes. We are animals. But we also have critical thinking skills, communication skills and opposable thumbs which puts us pretty much at the top of the food chain and makes perfectly capable of NOT acting like we were raised by a pack of wolves with no impulse control or ability to alter our behaviour. A simple 'it's biology' argument only goes so far.

So F ING sick of feminists demonizing perfectly normal evolutionary biological behavior display by males.

No one is getting all femi-nazi. I'm usually one of the ones railing against the femi-nazi's who make life miserable for people all around them.

You've missed the entire point...
I've reitierated, multiple times...

Complimentig a pretty woman is normal.
Catcalling is, while annoying, harmless.
Following a woman and demaning that she "smile" at you or respond to your "nice ass" comment is not 'normal'. It's harrasment.
There IS a difference. It's incredibly entitled and rude of anyone, man or woman, to insist on your time and engergy when you've made it very clear you're not interested. It's no different whether it be a robo call or a man approaching a woman on the street.

My argument goes to the fact that this woman is being demonized for highligthing the extreme examples of men, HARRASSING her. The behaviour of these

As I've said REPEATEDLY, I have no problem with a man complimenting a woman. I will defend his first ammendment and say he has the right to say pretty much whatever he wants. That's where his right ends. He doesn't have the right to insist on a response. he doesn't have a right to insult her after she ignores him. To that argument, she would be well within her rights to tell him exactly what she thinks of him when he does.

And, it's been said that the population for this area of this video is predominantly minority. Why is it so terrible to suggest that minority men be asked to be more thoughtful in their behaviour towards women? Espcially minority men who DEMAND to be treated with respect themselves. Are we actually arguing that ist's perfectly acceptable for a man to harrass a woman AND also demand respect but a woman that so much as suggests that these men are out of line and insists on being treated with respect by men is nothing more than a shrieking harpy?

Tempest in a teapot, this. I am a fairly unattractive woman. I am aware of this and have made peace with it. Therefore, I have never had this kind of attention. Having watched the video, I think those women offended by men trying to get their attention need to calm the hell down.

> where do you think it starts?
> This shit right here. This is
> where it starts.

Your comment is just so fucked up… It's straight out of the girlish part of human nature that I hate with all my heart.

It's naive, it's presumptuous, it's self-centered, it's hillbilly-isolated and childishly cold, and it's tremendously, unforgivably dumb. It's cowardly.

Women who say such things were not lovingly, daringly taught to see that other people are have feelings and experiences of life which they themselves haven't had. Perhaps even their own fathers were afraid of hurting their daughter's feelings, of cracking their (completely undeserved) illusions of centrality in the human project. That's the paradox: These girls have completely integrated the Disney fantasy of women-as-emotionally-attuned, even though they've never dreamt of testing their own intuition with the spirit of another.

People who should've known better have allowed you to presume that there's nothing happening in other people's hearts that hasn't happened in yours... No different sexual feelings, no different religious or cosmological approaches, no different aspirations for a life well-lived.

If it hasn't happened to you, you think it hasn't happened. You think you act as you do because someone told you to; you therefore think men act like men because someone told them to.

You think you know it all. Like the idiot Muslim of Amy's nightmare's, you think the book has already been written... You just need to convince everyone else to listen to you read it to them.

Sabrina,

I think you miss one of Amy's points. Men cat-call because it gives them an ever so slight mating advantage over the ones that don't. Like gambling (better than because it requires little cost)...it works enough of the time to keep doing it.

I used to wonder...does this ever work? I would purposely dress down to avoid attention when I was younger and hotter, so I get it(it can be annoying).

The guy following you to your door is entirely different and not what this video is complaining about. This is part of the problem, conflating someone saying "Hi" with someone following you to your front door. Major difference.

I am of an age, where I appreciate when men consider me attractive. My husband will tell me if he notices someone checking me out...because he knows me having third party corroboration makes me feel good about myself. (He loves me, so of course, he thinks I'm hot-I want to know when people who don't love me think I am hot.)

Nightmares, not nightmare's… Sorry. It's still early for those of us who work nights.

Loving the time change, though. We should "fall back" every weekend.

> As I've said REPEATEDLY, I have
> no problem with…

She's trying to be patient.

Love that. ♥

               ☺☺

Sabrina Word Count Index
circa 9:45am PST

     6:57 AM   1506 [!]

     7:57 AM   325

     8:12 AM   158

     9:04 AM   384

So very, very patient... And yet no one listens!

That's gotta hurt. On the inside, I mean. It's difficult being a real feminist, right? Challenging! Your work is never done! But you keep plugging away for a better tomorrow!

Curious... Have you ever had a business? One where you employed other people and signed their paychecks?

No reason, really... Just wondering...

"I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. This is something that God recognizes I will do--and I have done it--and God forgives me for it."
~Jimmy Carter

Jimmy knew better than to open his mouth, though.

That being said, comments & greetings vs. catcalls are hard to define in the manner in which this was filmed. Yeah the walking dude was creepy. And the guy that started his one sided conversation @ 1:22? In the real world most people would shut that off immediately. Her refusal to acknowledge only allows it to continue, so IMO that's an outlier of sorts...kind of like allowing yourself to be victimized. I can't explain it better.

One thing to admire about black and Hispanic culture is the men don't sit around and ponder whether a man should be asking a woman out. They just do it.

Black and Hispanic women on the other hand don't sit around and ponder whether they are being harassed by men hustling dates. If they're annoyed they'll just tell a dude to fuck the hell off.

And yet women, especially middle class white women want to come to NYC. But they want the sanitized version. The NYC where unappealing men find them appealing and don't speak their mind on the matter.

The NYC full of strange people who behave politely in accordance to your class upbringing because otherwise they are perpetuating the daddyless system. By doing what? Hitting on a woman in a manner deemed most unacceptable!

Except I can not help but wonder that these men must have some success with women.

You don't want that shit? Come live in Orange County. We don't cat call and unless you're ultra skinny with big fake silicon tits and no ass we won't compliment you on your tight casual outfit.

> Come live in Orange County.

You guys do sex parties.

Seriously, OC has a rilly weird flirtation vibe. You'll see women out all dolled up, or even moderately dolled up... Dressed in contemporary, almost Kansas City-conservative ways, like they have other stuff on their minds, with tight family boundaries and full business calendars and no time for bullshit.

But if you set your jaw and look 'em in the eye, you realize they are down… They are into it.

Oh, snap.

seems like this is the relevant chunk:

...Defining an unwanted "Lookin' good!" (even from a scary-looking guy) as harassment trivializes real harassment. Defining catcalls as sexual experiences trivializes sex. Most importantly, defining words as violence trivializes violence.

The carping about this behavior is that... I keep hearing the echo of "I shouldn't have to deal with this..."

Oh, yeah? Who died and made you god? Anyone being uncomfortable with words is a self evident wrong, ONLY to them, the rest of the world gives not one microsecond's damn.

"You being 6 feet tall, male, and shaped like a bear, makes me uncomfortable."

Yeah, well sweetheart, my existence bothering you, is your problem.

Seem too extreme? Then what are we constantly telling men? You CAN'T BE the way you are. Somebody might get upset.

For the record, we have rewritten as much as we could of the human stain that causes us to kill/hurt each other, made laws against, and prosecuted them.

That doesn't change the fact that we are given the right and responsibility to be sovereign in ourselves to protect ourselves.

That may mean not going certain places if we feel endangered. I walk down the street like a bad mofo [see the thing about being a bear] but there are places I wouldn't go at certain times, because who's protecting me? No-One, but me.

So I don't put myself in harms way, and am vigilant.

What does that have to do with catcalls? If you feel they rise to the level of attack, you shouldn'a go there. Just like you wouldn't walk that street in the middle of the night.

No law can grant you civility, that's a society thing. People using words that seem vulgar or unwanted to you? That's a civility thing, society's problem.

Even back in the day, when there were rules about civility, guys hanging out on street-corners wouldn't have followed them.

Ultimately who is being railed against here? Guys that would NEVER have followed those rules anyway. Why does anyone believe that carping about it will make them care?

SwissArmyD at November 4, 2014 10:34 AM ☑

Crid… Um, what?

I’ve been a long time poster here. Long enough for you to know, if you’d paid any attention, that my life has been anything but Disney-Princess.

I’ve also made it pretty clear in the past that I’m no man-hating femi-nazi who think all men are rapists and pigs. In fact, I’ve never even referred to myself as a ‘feminist’ for fear of being lumped in the crazy category. But forgive me if I cannot accept the ‘well men are men and therefore are not accountable to their urges because, biology.” On this same site, all of us rail against the arguments that men are just animals who can’t control themselves against the rape-criers. Men, in fact, DO in fact have impulse control. They prove this every day. This is what stops them from jumping off cliffs, running into traffic, raping all women that come into view, etc... This same impulse control can be used to stop them from following a woman and harassing them into submission.

No one’s on this site is demanding legislation. None of us are saying “all men are bad!”. I am relating to this woman’s video based on my own experience. I’ve lost count of the catcalls. I know I’m attractive and because I’m not as uptight as you’re making me sound, I generally move on without a thought. The men who simply catcall and move on are not the men that I’ve been referring to. My point, if you’d bothered to actually pay attention to context, is that the small percentage of men who catcall this women to the point of harassment are the problem. Implying that she in any way brought it on herself or that owes these men acknowledgement, or any man acknowledgement because he demands it, is perpetuating the idea that men just can’t control themselves and you lose every argument against the fems screaming rape at every turn you’ve ever made.

where do you think it starts?
This shit right here. This is
where it starts.

Your comment is just so fucked up… It's straight out of the girlish part of human nature that I hate with all my heart.

What’s so fucked up about it? As Amy’s fond of saying, how we treat people should to come from a place of empathy and empathy is learned. Children learn manners and behavior from their parents do they not? Boys learn how to treat women from the men around them and from the women they interact with. Men who treat women this way aren’t the men who are spending their days working and taking care of their families. The men behave this way aren’t seeking life partners. This isn’t a biological need to plant their seed and mate. Men who behave this way do it because no one ever told them that women have the right to ignore you and say ‘no thanks’ when you ask for her number. They are doing it because it makes THEM feel good. Like they need more assurance that they are a indeed a man and this woman is wrong for not acknowledging their manliness. The men that do this do not do this because they simply appreciate a beautiful woman. They do it because they want to possess her. And they do this to multiple women. And these same men would be the first to start a fight with another man who did that to his sister.

Glenn Reynolds seems to be perfectly comfortable with saying that calling these men out on it is equivalent to Jim Crow, as if to say that expecting minority men to behave differently toward women is racist. (The fact that no one takes issue with the fact that this guy has pretty much just decided that minority men are the only ones doing this and white women are the only ones it effects is baffling as well but why bother with pesky realities when we can use race to make our point!) But for arguments sake, since we are seemingly comfortable generalizing and entire group of people, then it’s also a pretty safe assumption that the men that are most guilty of this are also usually from that same social demographic, that are often also the most likely to come from single parent, low income homes, and father multiple children with multiple women. I take great issue with that.
To quote from his article: Different cultures and ethnicities have different ideas of what constitutes appropriate intersexual behavioral...
Well, in parts of the middle east, thier idea of intersexual behaviour is to wrap women in black and stone them for looking at another dude.If one agrees that race or “culture” makes it acceptable to treat women like they owe you something just because you said “hi”, and because most women don’t complain, then an argument can be made for the Muslim exteremists. I mean, that’s their culture right? We should just lighten up, us stupid feminists, and deal because that’s just the way they are. And most of those Muslim women aren’t complaining so they must be fine with it, right?

If we expect people to behave in a way that’s socially acceptable but are afraid to call them on their crap when they don’t because we are afraid of being called a racist then we are part of the problem.

To answer your question, Crid. I do have a business. I have my own theatre compay. A pretty successful one, actually. Small, but growing every year. I'm one of the youngest female producers in my city. I'm the boss of *GASP* MEN! I write the ALL checks. I do the payroll. I handle the insurance. I also handle all the contracts. The books are solid. I even do actual math to keep them that way! I'd put them up against any proffesional accountant. And guess what else? I'm friends with men too! Lots of men. Men who are from lots of different cultures and backgrounds. Shocking, I know.

And gosh I used a lot of words didn't I? Too bad you haven't actually bothered to read any of them.

"There's a difference between 'Damn mami, nice ass! Can I get your digits?' and 'You look lovely today, miss. Have a great day.'"

That's where you lost the thread. To postmodern feminists, they are one and the same. How often do we get reminded at work that we should not ever give the slightest hint that we notice a female co-worker's appearance? Every day. We get regular training and reminders on it. There are posters in the hallways that we walk by dozens of times a day. A primary goal of postmodern feminism is to make all male mating behavior high cost. To a postmodern feminist, a glance equals a compliment equals a catcall equals a rape.

"a densly populated, mutli-ethnic city..."

Riffing on something Ppen said, this whole thing is coming across as a pissing match between upper-middle-class white women and working-class black/Hispanic men. I don't see where I have a dog in that fight. Further, as a white guy, there is a 10-ton weight poised above my head waiting for me to say the wrong thing about it, one way or the other. Therefore, I decline to participate. And I will not be shamed into taking one side or the other.

Thank you, Amy. I needed a hearty laugh. "10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Jew" hit the spot! I walked out of the hareidi world to start rebuilding my life on my fortieth birthday -- just two years ago. I was extremely lucky. My nuclear family survived, and I had enough skills despite two decades in freim-hell with a decade in an Israeli kollel, to find work. Still: any Jewish male (or remotely Jewish looking male) walking down the street in Crown Heights or Boro Park could get that much material in an hour, let alone 10! A thousand harachamans upon your house!

>>Matt, do you live in a densly populated, mutli-ethnic city where walking is the most practical and popular means of getting to your destination?

Of course not. But the main reason she wouldn't get catcalled, is because we don't have a large number of homeless/poor men camped out on the sidewalks or construction sites for you to walk past.

"Different cultures and ethnicities have different ideas of what constitutes appropriate intersexual behavioral,"

True in general, but bullshit in the context of catcalling. Name me the culture where men feel delighted when other men catcall their sister or daughter.

That said, the behavior in the video is annoying but harmless, and not worth going viral.

I'm throwing in with Sabrina, here.

It's not the "bay-bee" calls. It's not the 1% being annoying. Whatever.

It's that one of those started to push into her space, and once that happens it can escalate quickly into something bad.

And, you never know when it'll happen. It might not. But it could. And all it takes is one. Percentages don't matter, then.

> I've been a long time poster here.
> Long enough for you to know, if
> you'd paid any attention

Y'know, I almost never do. I'm not here for the sex, not here for the work leads, not really here to forge bonds in respectful camaraderie with agreeable darlings as we stumble through Fate's stormy torments on a world that doesn't care, holding hands in some internet-metaphorical way.

An eentsy-teentsy subset of a miniscule micro-fraction of Amy's commenters have made contact, and we've gone out for coffee or a snack.

But basically, every day's a new day with a new topic: A fresh opportunity to be disappointed by human nature, as expressed through someone just a mountain or state or continent or ocean away… Someone who as recently as Thursday was at least partly right about something. There's no point in writing down names. This is just for practice. I don't do teamwork. I don't want anything.

Names usually stick in the conscious mind only after they've said something gasbag-stupid and declined to humbly stand down.

…Hi, Sabrina!

And yet!…

> I’ve also made it pretty clear
> in the past

See, it's like, because… Amy's right about almost everything, but (part) wrong about Islam. And this week, Ebola. So duzzenmadder.

> I’m no man-hating femi-nazi
> who think all men are rapists
> and pigs.

That's toasting up the rhetoric a little warmly, isn't it? Who said you were?

> forgive me if

Sarcasm is a slippery slope…

> I cannot accept the 'well men
> are men and therefore are not
> accountable to their urges
> because, biology."

Who are you quoting? What were their exact words?

> Men, in fact, DO in fact
> have impulse control.

You're kidding yourself if you think your problem is with their "impulse control," rather than their masculinity.

> control can be used to stop them…

Oh yeah! It can! Control is wonderfully useful stuff!

(OK, that was kind of a naughty edit.)

> …from following a woman and
> harassing them into submission.

…But what's weird is, I didn't know the forum was concerned about women who are 'followed and harrassed into submission.' [Attention Fellow Commenters: Please describe the last time you saw that happen to somebody.]

(Your comments are so long, it takes a lot of time to cover all of them. We soldier on, but I need a bowl of Chirashi, a small glass of hot Sake, and a ballot. It's my Sunday.)

> As Amy’s fond of saying, how
> we treat people should to come
> from a place of empathy and
> empathy is learned.

WTF? AMY said that? Amy Alkon, the redhead with the tall guy?

Sheesh — I must have missed a bunch of posts.

No... Not possible. Amy does not "come" from "places," ever. She's never promiscuous with empathy, and rarely even slutty about what is "learned" vs. what is innate. Seriously, the rest of that paragraph is an estrogen-drunkard's fantasy. It's just all fucked up.

OK, let's break for lunch & votes.

Y'know, sex is such an enormous part of our lives. It's so critical and determinative and nuanced and loud and quiet. Enormous.

It's strange that you'd believe a force so large in life —a range of desire weaker only than the hunger in your belly or (perhaps) the drooping of your eyelids after a day chasing food in the veldt— could somehow be made perfectly comfortable for you in all contexts.

You apparently think your only worry is a range of men, a subset you smugly admit to be minimal, who don't have enough "impulse control."

I think if that's your problem with sex, you aren't giving it anywhere near enough attention.

Aside from a parent of a small child, anyone who tells somebody they need to respond when another person speaks to them is a jerk and needs to be smacked or ignored. Nobody should get to demand anyone's time or attention just because they want it. It's not a feminist/sexist/whatever thing, it's a jerk thing. Not much different from telemarketers.

Some of what I saw on the video was boorish behavior. But the things along the lines of "Bless you. Have a nice day," are supposed to be harassment? Maybe it's because I'm not a city person. I know that in cities many expect to be completely ignored by others, but it's just not harassment to wish somebody a nice day - even if done crudely.

One other comment. If you put writing on your butt, you are inviting people to look there.

It's not a feminist/sexist/whatever thing, it's a jerk thing.

Agreed.

One other comment. If you put writing on your butt, you are inviting people to look there.

Quick fact check: AE puts their logo on a little leather tag on the waist:

http://www.ae.com/web/browse/product_details.jsp?productId=3436_8939_918&catId=cat6990024

It's not as if she had the writing scrawled across her behind, Juicy-velour-pants-style. I don't think it's fair to say that wearing pants with a little brown tag (which most branded jeans have a variation of) is inviting people to look.

Unfortunately, yes, Cousin Dave. As a white man, you're already percieved to be the devil and cannot possibly speak on women's issues without being damned to hell for all eternity for perpetuating the "war on women". I genuanly feel for you. The sooperdooperutlra-fems and their pansy politicians have pretty much ruined male-female relations for all.

I have to say the best compliment I've recieved recenty was from a middle aged Spanish gentleman with broken english at CVS. He just came up to me and said "Miss. I was over there and I know how creepy this is going to sound but I saw you and needed to tell you that you're stunning. You really are. I can see that you're married but I wanted to tell you. I hope I didn't scare you. Please, have a great rest of your day." I thanked him, told him he just made my day and wished him well. And that was that. If he had come to me with, Not with, "Yo. I can get your number? Why not? You only talk to white boys?" Not so much.
Another time I caught a man checking out my ass. He wasn't leering, but he was definitely enjoying the brief view as I was getting off the train. I let him. I happened to be dressed in a tight dress on my way to an event and I looked good. I didn't flip out on him, either. Imagine that.

Unfortunately for me as white lower-middle class woman though, I cannot insist a man of any race but white actually take the hint that I'm just not interested in letting him 'smack dat ass' without being told to get my panties out of my ass or being called a "femi-nazi". I should just appreciate their come on's, no matter how vulgar, because he's just appreciating my looks, dontchaknow.

So the lesson learned from this thread is: Just shut up and smile, girls! You don't want to be seen as a man-hater do you? Remember, it's only sexual harrassment if he's white and rich and you can sue him. If he's from another "culture" (read: any other race but white), that's just how they communicate thier affection for women. Take it as a compliment when that guy sitting on a crate on the corner in the middle of the day tells you to sit on his face. HE's not being vulgar, he's telling you he wants to put his seed in you, for survival of the species, of course. It's purely biology. He's clearly perfect partner material because he's so open in his interest to bed you. When he ingnores your 'no' and persists, you should just jump on that. You don't want him to miss his opportunity to mate, do you?

OR... you could excericise your own first ammendment and tell him exactly what he can do with his face. But expect to be told you over-reacted, especially if you're white.

SwissArmyD,
Avoidance would work if it wasn't for the fact that she LIVES there. This sort of thing is not limited to just this one neighborhood; This is common all over NYC and all densly populated cities where walking is the common way to get around (This happens regularly in South Beach, Miami too but I rarely go Couth of Broward County). It's literally unavoidable unless you never set foot in the city again which is highly impractical when you're an actor in the city. She should find a new career now to avoid having to go the city? She should move? Is she expected to take a new route to the subway every time this happens? Should she really expected to spend half her check on a cab to avoid being harrassed by a guy who just won't take no for an answer every time she walks by? While I agree a simple "nice ass" isn't the end of the world, and if it stopped there, then I'd agree with everyone else. But it didn't. At some point, we need to put the onus back on the men to behave appropriately and stop chalking it up to "well, you should have just avoided walking down that street." And where are the other men in the neighborhood to say "Enough. Leave the girl alone."

Lest Crid jump on my ass again, yes, I used a LOT of words. I also used some hyperbole. I heartell that's pretty common when one is trying to make a point. Let's not make too much of it, shall we.
Who am I kidding? You won't be able to resist. Have at it.

Sabrina, the entire thrust of your comments here is that none of us can possibly understand what your life is like. Yet, you feel entitled to make assumpions about what my life is like. I had thought you to be a better person that that. You can just fuck off. Seriously.

I thought this should be here: https://medium.com/message/that-catcalling-video-and-why-research-methods-is-such-an-exciting-topic-really-32223ac9c9e8

Yay for science!

Scott Adams take on it, invoking behaviorism: http://www.dilbert.com/blog/entry/loser_choices/

> following a woman and harassing
> them into submission.

Still look for samples here!

Anyone?

OK, back from lunch. Great Chirashi, good Sake, power ballot. I so voted against "Social Justice Attorney" Sandra Fluke... For many reasons. The latest is that there's no such thing as a "Social Justice Attorney."

These cat-calling idiots are like dogs chasing cars.

Yeah, they make a lot of noise, but they're not going to have more than a basic idea of what to do when they catch one.

Personally, I think they're great, both them and all the guys terrified of saying a pleasant "Hi" for fear of a sexual harassment lawsuit. Makes me look like social wizard in comparison.

> Children learn manners and behavior
> from their parents do they not?

Never all of either, and besides who cares.

I mean, all of this frogwash--

> Men who behave this way do it
> because no one ever told them

--Affirms my earlier point, that you think masculine nature is a social creation. YOU SIMPLY CANNOT BELIEVE THAT SOMEONE IS RESPONDING TO FEELINGS WHICH YOU DON'T SHARE. And if he does, you think his Momma let you down.

…That makes you naive: Interpersonally provincial; arrogant.

> women have the right to ignore you

So what exactly is the problem? Somebody tell the video girl… We're done here.

> But for arguments sake, since we are
> seemingly comfortable generalizing

Just for argument, seemingly comfortable generalizing?

…Given ten months of Sundays, is there any chance that sentence could pay off coherently? You don't talk to adults about serious stuff very much, right?

> but are afraid to call them
> on their crap

Call anyone on anything you want. If you expect reflexive support from third parties, remember that I've promised you nothing.


> Shocking, I know.

There's a real teen sarcasm thing cooking here.

> I do have a business. I have
> my own theatre compay.

A realm of fantasy and pretend, you say? High-school educated gay guy does your lighting? Do you pay him?

> A pretty successful one, actually.

You turn a profit? You earn the wealth for your own life and expenses, perhaps those of your family, as do your employees?

I don't believe it.

> yes, I used a LOT of words. I also
> used some hyperbole. I heartell
> that's pretty common when one is
> trying to make a point. Let's not
> make too much of it, shall we. Who
> am I kidding? You won't be able to
> resist. Have at it.

You're gassy, wasting people's time and attention.

And your ass looks fat in those pants.

Also-- Would someone -- anyone -- please send me a little love for "estrogen drunkard"? Is that not a wonderfully expressive and concisely pointed coinage?

"Yes, Uncle Cridmosaures... Yes it is!"

When something similar was tried in Sydney, nothing much happened. The area was they tried was predominately white, middle class, very like your average US neighborhood. I suspect that they set this one to 'succeed' by choosing the nighbourhood carefully.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/when-it-comes-to-catcalling-sydneysiders-are-a-far-cry-from-the-new-gawkers/story-fni0cx12-1227110190297?sv=3e80bd8fbe283b7ff907cb4cd463a696

When I read Sabrina's first post, I was almost sure I was going to find Artemis at the bottom.

The only time I have been sexually harassed is when I went to the museum in Irakleon Crete alone and was followed from room to room by a Cretan security guard.

It was annoying but not dangerous.

I don't count the construction workers in Manhattan, where I went to law school. That is part of the New York scene, culture, not harassment.

> something similar was tried in Sydney

Duzzencount! Aussies are the kindest, most welcoming and patient human beings on the planet. You're housepets with driver's licenses and a lethal, expanding Navy.

No fair. I *been* to Australia... You fuggers cheat the curve in terms of courtesy to strangers.

This whole debacle makes me feel good. It reaffirms my decision years ago never again to speak to or compliment a woman in public. I don't need a lawsuit or to show up on video looking like some one-step-from-rapist male filth.

Amy, you look smashing, but I'd never say that to you on the street.

When I read Sabrina's first post, I was almost sure I was going to find Artemis at the bottom. ~ Posted by: Isab at November 4, 2014 4:05 PM

Nope. It was definitely approaching his/her level of excessive wordiness, but too much personal information was revealed in it for it to be Artemis/Orion's.

From Sabrina's initial post (and subsequent posts), we know that she is white, a woman, lives in NYC, is married, runs a theater, took self defense classes, thinks very highly of her looks, and puts on clothes to go to the grocery store.

Artemis/Orion would have have to be waterboarded to reveal even a tenth of that in one blog thread. Secrecy is a ridiculous obsession with him/her.

While Sabrina's posts may show an insistence that the world bend itself to her viewpoint, it doesn't reach Artemis/Orion's level of insularity. One gets the feeling that Sabrina has actually been out in the world, but wants someone to redecorate it to her preferences before she sits on the couch.

=========================

Scott Adams take on it, invoking behaviorism: Loser Choices ~ Posted by: Wolf at November 4, 2014 2:25 PM

Nice.

I've left a few jobs myself when fighting to get to the next level was a losing battle or I just didn't like working for that company, boss, or industry anymore.

I liked the part about winners not waiting for someone to rescue them.

In 10 hours of walking around New York City, no one held a door for her? Even once?

We're led to believe this woman endured a 10-hour ordeal of harassment, objectification, and verbal abuse.

There is something fishy about this whole business. That woman is not attractive.

Since you replied directly to one point o' mine, Sabrina, let me ask you a question.

Do you believe that those catcalls, or others that you've gotten, rise to the level of PHYSICAL attacks?

Know this compelling truth, for which my authorship can never be suitably rewarded:

The feminine presumption that masculine nature is matter of bad social programming may do more long-term damage to the species than will any Marxist fantasies about the distribution of wealth... It's more broadly felt in human hearts, and it propagates without a champion text.

Write that down, note the date, and seal it with wax in an envelope for your great great great great great great grandson.

So, if AE has a small label on the waist... how did the guy know they were AE jeggings?

Is the guy a connoisseur of women's jeggings? Was it staged? Something else?

I've been on both sides of this issue. When I was younger, I remember feeling very threatened. I was often followed. I hesitated to go outside alone or walk to the convenience store less than one block away. I tried wearing a jacket and bringing along my dog. I tried tucking my hair under a cap while wearing my husband's jacket. I was still followed and harassed. I don't wear tight shirts - ever. I felt trapped. Even policemen scared me. Why did he ask me so many questions?

Now that I'm older I feel safer. Perhaps it's the neighborhood, perhaps it's that I'm simply not bombarded on a daily basis. Now, at 52 I even enjoy a little flirting on the street.

Even though I don't experience the same reaction now, I have to validate the way that some people feel when they deal with trying to ensure their own safety on a daily basis and are constantly on the alert.

Jen, is this the "following a woman and harassing them [sic] into submission" thing we heard about earlier?

The next pretty woman I see on the street, I'm gonna meow at her.

PPen is exactly right with this:

One thing to admire about black and Hispanic culture is the men don't sit around and ponder whether a man should be asking a woman out. They just do it.

Black and Hispanic women on the other hand don't sit around and ponder whether they are being harassed by men hustling dates. If they're annoyed they'll just tell a dude to fuck the hell off.

And look at the link to Italy.

Middle-class white women think that they *should* have (pretty much as their birthright), as Crid mentioned about, the Disney Princess lifestyle, with life never getting too lifey, and without them ever having to lift a finger/open their mouths to keep the lifey-ness away from them.

If you live in New York City and walk down the street, men will say stuff to you. Don't like this? Move to Farmington Hills, Michigan, the suburb where I grew up.

Less than 1% of men "harassed" her.

Less than 0.5% of the population "harassed" her

Les than 1 person in 200 said hello in a "threatening" manner she did not like

And dont try and sell me on 'shes not looking to make speaking to women illegal' thats exactly why she asked for "donations"

You know Sabrina, you are right, its true people have the CAPACITY to use their brains to override their baser instincts.

But given the state of the world I thinks its quite obvious very few of us ever exercise it.

You certainly arent. Why else would you find such behavior threatening.

Evolution over millions of years has primed you to seek high status mates and reject low status and to fear unknown males as rape is a viable mating strategy for lower status males.

Okay… so I walked away last night and came back today because I realized how I was coming off and everything of value I had to say got lost in the mix during my ranting. I was pissed that I was being accused of not acknowledging that other people have had different life experiences when that’s exactly what I felt was happening to me, but, I can admit my own faults in not being as eloquent and concise as I would have liked to be. I don’t live under the delusion that just because I can’t see faces that there aren’t real people behind the keyboard and I can absolutely see where I came off sounding like crazy ass femtard. I apologize. Sincerely. That’s very out of character for me.

First, Cousin Dave, I’m not in any way dismissing you and in fact, agree that post-modern fem extremists have made it very difficult for men. I was being a sarcastic fuck throughout most of that post and thought that was obvious but clearly it was not, so I do apologize if that’s how it came off. Genuinely. I’m very much a defender of men who are put through the ringer with Femi-crazy crap and I’m sincerely sorry for how that sounded.

SwissArmyD, to answer… except in my situation where a guy did actually put his hands on me, generally I’d have to say no. Most of them don’t get to that level. In fact, most men would shrink up and back down if a woman turned it back around on them.
But, regular harassment (read: harassment, not a simple catcall) when added to the daily onslaught of men who regularly yell out extremely obscene remarks at you, does have a way of making a person feel ill at ease in their daily life and I can absolutely relate to that. No one should feel that they should have to alter their entire way of life to avoid a couple of douchbags who can’t just leave it at “no, thank you.” My suggestion, again, is that women should be more assertive in those situations. I’ve yelled my fair share of “fuck off’s” to extremely vulgar dudes in the past and we all went on with our lives without incident.

Most times, I’m on the side of “suck it up, buttercup” when it comes to women acting like pansy asses. I’ve never expected the world to bend to what I believed it should be though I do think there is an argument for expecting better of people. This video highlighted (albeit, poorly) what it was like for women in NYC but I NEVER said that something as simple as a catcall was harassment. Most of that stuff is harmless and pretty typical and also easily ignored. If that’s all the video was, my post would have read more like, “Really? You’re bitching about this? Next!” It’s the behavior that follows…the following her for a few minutes and the insulting her for her non-response, etc… that I took issue with. That is more than a catcall and it happens a lot more often than you see on this one two-minute long video. It continues because women are too afraid to tell them men to piss off for fear of retaliation from a potentially unstable man or are simply afraid they will be seen as uptight harpies if they do.

My other issue was with the statement that that this woman basically had it coming because of her clothing and her act of walking down a street in Harlem, alone. I just couldn’t believe that anyone on this site could say that. I felt it also necessary to point out that that is the same thing people tell actual victims of sexual assault… It hit a nerve. That, and the fact that race differences are being used to justify men being jerks to women. Since when do we let people get away with using race as an excuse for being a jerk?

Basically, I’m coming from a place of… not all of this is harmless catcalling and it’s worth at least discussing without dismissing those who have had a different experience.

But, for my long ass ranting, I’m so sorry. Seriously. That’s… not me. I’m gonna have to make damn certain going forward to force myself to sit on a post a while before I hit send when I’m in a shitty mood and a topic hits too close to home.

Well, shit. That was still long as fuck.
okay, short version....

I'm so sorry I sounded like a crazy ass femtard yesterday. I completely and totally understand why y'all went apeshit on me. Cousin Dave, I especially owe you an apology. Really. I was being a sarcastic fuck for most of that post and clearly, my response to you didn't read the way I intended.

Seriously. I own it completely and will try not to sound like an overmediated, monkey with too much estrogen in the future.

Seriously. I own it completely and will try not to sound like an overmediated, monkey with too much estrogen in the future.

FWIW, a good few of the others who "got into it" with you yesterday are guilty of making overly emotional, impossible-to-follow arguments riddled with personal attacks and embarrassing logical failures.

They'll never admit to it though.

If I ever see you in person, I'm going to "harass" you until you "submit," which is a thing.

That happens.

It’s the behavior that follows…the following her for a few minutes and the insulting her for her non-response, etc… that I took issue with.

I would have as well had the videos creators not claimed that saying hello was just as creepy and in need of illegalization

> impossible-to-follow

Sugarbun, Amy's blog's been here for, like, ten years. It's in the Google cache and the Wayback Machine. It's written for a (and by) a tenth-grader's level of textual comprehension.

So if you're overwhelmed the first time you load the page, you can read it again and again until you figger it out. In the years ahead, with practice, you'll be able to speed through the paragraphs without pausing to 'sound them out.'

And with more practice, you'll (perhaps) develop the courage to identify "logical failures" which today leave you so passive-aggressively befuddled.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but, this "video" was, in my humble (and scientific) opinion, a very clear fund raiser.
If it was designed to be any kind of quasi-documentary it was, and is, a complete failure. 10 hours condensed into 120 seconds? About half of the comments came from ONE STREET (125th Street in Haarlem). Most of the comments were hardly sexual harassment...
But, it certainly was presented in a way (the actress was obviously wearing the most depressed/beaten/victimized face she could muster) that wound people's emotions up.
I'd love to know how much money was donated as a result of this video and just where it is going to go.

> the statement that that this woman basically
> had it coming because of her clothing and
> her act of walking down a street in Harlem,
> alone. I just couldn’t believe that anyone on
> this site could say that. 

NOBODY DID SAY THAT. Jesus Christ!... Nobody said it "basically," and nobody said it specifically. Go back and look... Reread this very web page. You're pissing yourself over something that never happened, an expression that was never heard.

This is the behavior of alcoholics and drug addicts... I've seen it before. But I don't think you're one of those.

You're the perfect example of how feminism has fallen into disrepute. To a generation (or two) of women, that's what feminism has come to mean. It's not a thoughtful body of arguments to improve all our lives... It's a child's game where imaginary resentments are respected as tragedies.

in practical terms, this is indistinguishable from mental illness.

NOBODY DID SAY THAT. Jesus Christ!... Nobody said it "basically," and nobody said it specifically.

Crid,

For your reading pleasure... pulled right from the post and comments on this thread:

Amy wrote: Getting back to the video, if you are strutting your stuff on the street in New York in painted-on clothing -- as this girl was -- you look like you're looking for some male attention, and you're likely to get it..."

If, however, you don't want male attention, you don't wear clothes so tight that passerby can count the moles on your back without your removing your shirt."

Marty Klein wrote: She's wearing skin-tight clothes that emphasize her every curve…

…(although most adults would agree that her clothing choice would typically be coded as provocative)…

PPen wrote: They took a white girl that has a body and hair that appeals to blacks and Hispanics. They put her in a tight outfit that outlines her curves and butt. Then they had her walk a fucking city full of said demographic and got that reaction from cultures that produce very few romantically timid men. Golly geez.

So, tell me again where no one said that...

Crid wrote:

impossible-to-follow

Sugarbun, Amy's blog's been here for, like, ten years. It's in the Google cache and the Wayback Machine. It's written for a (and by) a tenth-grader's level of textual comprehension.

I was not referring to Amy's blogs. Her blogs are well written and easy to follow.

I was talking about some commenters' comments/arguments, the quality of which ... varies.

I was in NYC and DC with a male friend for almost two weeks. Being in his presence nearly the entire time, I experienced no male interaction on the street. That is, until we decided to do separate activities one day. I was waiting on a bench in DC across from the Library of Congress, not even 3 minutes from being apart from my friend, when suddenly it was as if a beacon was shining on me. Men passed by me and said, "Hi", "How are you?", etc. It wasn't harassment, though it would have been nice to be left with my thoughts. Nevertheless, I thought it was interesting that none would have greeted me if my friend were there.