You simply can't wait *a few months* to report any crime officially and expect to be believed.

It goes both to credibility, and physical evidence of the alleged assault.

Imagine what you would think about a mother reporting her three year old missing several months after the supposed abduction?

Maybe after *dont get drunk at frat parties* this is the second lesson parents should be teaching their daughters (and sons).

She was sober and the article details a horrific account of what happened

She was sober and the article details a horrific account of what happened

Posted by: gooseegg at November 26, 2014 7:58 AM

Rolling Stone is nothing but the gospel truth, I am sure.

She *says* she was sober, and that horrific account of what happened is only one version of events. An event that was not reported officially until apparently several months after the alleged assault.

And again, her account of what happened is not credible with no physical evidence to substantiate it.

A BAC and a rape kit immediately after the alleged assault would have gone a long way to substantiate her version of events.

"Jackie did not disclose the alleged assault until the following spring, at the end of her freshman year, when she spoke to a university dean in charge of student misconduct, according to Rolling Stone. She declined at the time to press charges, but the dean offered to be available should she change her mind. UVA did not place the fraternity under investigation until September 2014"

You cannot make an accusation like this months or even weeks after the alleged crime, and expect to be believed.

Isn't anyone asking how after supposedly being brutally raped, this 20 year old, is still at UVA, and still apparently functioning as a student?

Would you be?

This is the equivalent of being a victim of a violent crime while in high school and, instead of going to the police and possibly having your day in court, having the matter brought up before a meeting of the student council.

My argument exactly for not letting the Catholic Church investigate the molestation accusations against their senior officials. Turn it over to the cops.

Much as it pains me, I have my doubts about this.

It's just too convenient a story, both in timing and content. It hits all the right buttons to mesh with the current 'campus rape crisis' narrative that's being pushed by the DOJ.

Duke lacrosse case all over again? In that case, the university was all over the accused, long before there was any due process - and of course it turned out to be entirely untrue. But in this case, we're supposed to believe that everyone involved was more concerned with their social standing and the reputation of the school than with reporting a violent assault to the police?

Sorry - I need to see some proof before I'll believe this one.

llater,

llamas.

Um, not up to speed on this here.

Why are we suddenly so concerned about the safety of college girls? Why aren't these straightforward matters for police?

Imagine a 20-year-old co-ed majoring in geology.

Now imagine that coed has a 19-year-old cousin who works full-time at the Tasty Freeze two blocks south of campus.

And now imagine that the cousin gets raped on the way home from her job.

Will an enormous technocracy of effete pseudo-intellectuals rise up to defend the working woman?

Should it?

Crid,

That is entirely the point.

Should the appropriate punishment for rape be expulsion from school? Does that mean rapists who don't go to school are free and clear?

Those effete pseudo-intellectuals you reference want college's to be responsible for investigating and prosecuting rape. They also want them to do so without any due process or other protections for the defendants. The president and the federal government is forcing this onto colleges that don't think rape is an issue they are equipped to handle.

"Isn't anyone asking how after supposedly being brutally raped, this 20 year old, is still at UVA, and still apparently functioning as a student?"

The story describes some of this. She failed three classes, retreated to her dorm room, etc.

The story describes some of this. She failed three classes, retreated to her dorm room, etc.

Posted by: Jason S. at November 26, 2014 9:56 AM

Or another possibility: She failed three classes, going through a major bout of homesickness, depression, binge drinking, etc. and then when the administration called her into the dean's office in the spring to explain why she should transfer to a community college, in order to get her problems sorted out, she came up with the rape story to deflect attention from her personal failures, and put it on the *patriarchy* for raping her.

Why are all you sensitive men so freaking gullible when some girl cries, and starts pointing fingers, months after a supposed incident?

I think Soave, Amy, and Ben have it right, that mere expulsions of rapists can't be a more stupid idea if the idea is to protect women from rape.

I have some doubts about the Rolling Stone account. I didn't read the whole thing, but the parts I did read were horrific indeed (rape, rape, and rape with a beer bottle) and so I didn't understand how her date, Drew, a junior she met while working lifeguard shifts, who led her into the room to be raped, who was there and encouraged the other men and gave instructions could possibly walk up to her later

"Hey, Jackie," Drew said, startling her. "Are you ignoring me?" She'd switched her shift in the hopes of never seeing him again. Since the Phi Kappa Psi party, she'd barely left her dorm room, fearful of glimpsing one of her attackers. Jackie stared at Drew, unable to speak. "I wanted to thank you for the other night," Drew said. "I had a great time."

If this account is accurate, either Drew is a sociopath, or I am in coma and everything I perceive is fever dreams.

Students who are confessed rapists shouldn't be expelled, they should be put in jail.
______________________________

Um, how about expelling them AFTER they're sent to jail? At least?
______________________________

Do the bureaucrats at the Department of Education--who are now mandating that universities at least consider expelling rapists--really sleep any better at night with the knowledge that they have made it more difficult for violent criminals to earn degrees?
_______________________________

Maybe the criminals should have thought of that first.

And, Isab...you make it sound as if there were no witnesses to the physical aftermath of the rape. Like, you know, her bloody clothes...to the point where one of them said they should get her to a doctor.

But given the near-unbelievable, overall reaction by the female "bystanders," it doesn't surprise me much that she DIDN'T talk to anyone for months.

The article horrified me for more than one reason. Or two. Or three. Especially the awful songs - and customs at Yale. If this is what's going on there, I shudder to think what the attitudes are at less prestigious colleges nowadays (yes, I know it doesn't always work that way - more humble colleges might well have a better sense of civility). Some cynics would say that girls just should never trust frat boys or frat parties. I would take it a lot further. As I mentioned on Amazon, my Radcliffe-educated mother never talked to me about frats in the 1980s, other than to say that she would not give her blessing to any college I picked that had fraternities or sororities.

What's also frightening, especially, is how even the young WOMEN can't seem to grasp that yes, unwanted sex exists, and therefore they have little or no sympathy for rape victims. What's going on here?

As I've mentioned, aside from narcissistic, cold-blooded predators, who cannot be easily taught to re-learn empathy, the average teen boy need to be asked how he would feel if attacked by a trusted man who wouldn't take "no" for an answer. Otherwise, he may not grasp that yes, unwanted sex exists and should be taken seriously.

She *says* she was sober, and that horrific account of what happened is only one version of events.

Interesting...she didn't scratch the ever loving beejeebers out of the assailants all the while screaming bloody murder? all kinds of evidence could be hiding out under her finger nails.

My online reading of media and blogs shows me article after article of various feminists and social justice warriors practically instructing young women not to go to the cops. The certainly defend the position, and there are many articles about why the various authors would not go to the cops after their assaults.

This comes hand in glove with the same authors bemoaning how the cops treat rape frivolously, mistreat victims, believe all rape is a hoax, and have pitiful conviction rates.

But girls, it is feminism to not go to the cops after your assault.

"Why are all you sensitive men so freaking gullible when some girl cries"

Hey, you asked the question, and I provided some (alleged) info. I don't really know.

When I was 23, I visited acquaintances at university and hooked up w/ a woman in a one night deal. We weren't smashed and it was consensual. But like the song says "will you still love me tomorrow?" , the next day I didn't express emotional connection or whatever, so she spread the rumor that I raped her. I was a douchebag, but not that big of a douchebag.

Eventually she realized it was misleading and could cast doubt on people's real rape allegations.

I can empathize w/ the "patriarchy" and how false, defamatory accusations of assault can ruin lives. Doesn't mean I should think of every rape accusation as a spurious opportunity to bash the "patriarchy" and its "rape culture".

And, yeah, for all I know she was just really homesick. There are other cases at U Virginia that the story describes.

"given the near-unbelievable, overall reaction by the female "bystanders," it doesn't surprise me much that she DIDN'T talk to anyone for months."

And this non reaction is alleged by her? Or are there actual depositions from other women at the party that match her account?

How about, at the time, the other women didn't believe her, and still don't? Or she never made any allegations at all, until the spring?

And where is the physical evidence?

You just don't *not report * this sort of thing. You seek treatment at a hospital.

This is what I mean by gullible.

I call bullshit on the whole story.

I personally think it will turn out to be UVA's version of the Duke Lacrosse case.

The facts are never going to change your narrative, about this being a problem with educating men Lenona. I get that.

> If this account is accurate, either
> Drew is a sociopath, or I am in coma
> and everything I perceive is
> fever dreams.

Exactly. There's a Hollywood horror movie pod-people fantasy being described here: This seemingly upstanding young man is not who he appears to be! He's part of a network of savagery —cunning in deceit and shameless in dishonesty— that could strike anytime, anywhere....

> the average teen boy need to be
> asked how he would feel if

Goddammit, NO.

I'm sorry, Lemona, but that isn't feminism, it's childish femininity. I've heard it my whole life from girls and women who are —as described by Amy in a post nearby— coddled…

…From women who've grown up in homes where their safety was guaranteed by loving, intimate men... Their fathers. Or in homes where such men were statistically predominant.

Those men should have told you that they were precious, that their defense of you had boundaries, and that you should be both observant of and grateful for their service, as it would be essentially withdrawn from you upon adulthood, as it should be.

If you sincerely, SINCERELY believe that the solution to the very real threats to your safety —sexual and otherwise— is to pester young men with cluckings about 'How do you think it would FEEEEEEL if _______', then you're simply too naive to defend *anyone's* interests in this discussion.

You've given too much of your life to fantasies of child-rearing and cookie time, where every behavior problem can be solved with stern words and carbohydrates withheld.

You've skipped too many adult chapters. And you've lost the plot.

The AVERAGE teen boy, you say...

You think your hen-beak cluckings are the universal solution.

Uh...I R A there is no evidence at all because she waited too long.

Rape victims have a poor track record of reporting rape as soon as it's done. In fact serial rapists count on the fact that most victims don't come forward. Jimmy Savile is one example. His victims ranged from children to 80 year olds.

For whatever reason rape makes people too ashamed to come forward. Psychologically I think that makes sense. We are not rational creatures and act in patterns.

So could have this girl been raped? Yes, I definitely think so.

But here is the thing that nobody mentions to women. If you get raped it's your duty to be medically evaluated and to press immediate charges. It's your responsibility. If you fail to do so nobody has a duty to believe you and you certainly loose the right to legally accuse someone.

But saying women need to be proactive in something like this is taboo. And things have gotten so murky that I recently read women are advocating pressing charges when men they aren't attracted to drunkenly force a kiss on them.

My mistake. Amy didn't actually use the word "coddled." She said:

This behavior is coming from students who have grown up in what, at any other time in history, would be considered luxurious comfort.

Mea culpa.

> Rape victims have a poor track record
> of reporting rape as soon as it's done.

It's my understand that a rape test kit + procedures costs $1400+, and the victim is on the hook for it until there's a successful prosecution.

Do the bureaucrats at the Department of Education--who are now mandating that universities at least consider expelling rapists--really sleep any better at night with the knowledge that they have made it more difficult for violent criminals to earn degrees?
_______________________________

Maybe the criminals should have thought of that first.

Fact is most of the "criminals" expelled were drunk guys having willing sex with drunk girls who cried rape to avoid the shame of a drunken hook up.

The real preadators rarely get expelled

> Rape victims have a poor track record
> of reporting rape as soon as it's done.

It's my understand that a rape test kit + procedures costs $1400+, and the victim is on the hook for it until there's a successful prosecution.

Posted by: Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 26, 2014 11:53 AM

I am sure, in some small jurisdictions this is true, but in cases of stranger rape, I bet law enforcement picks up the tab of testing the evidence for a DNA sample.

Like any other medical exam, the hospital is going to bill you and your insurance policy unless law enforcement steps up.

This is why, if you are raped, it is smart to call the police first.

Would you not go to the hospital if you were seriously injured in a car crash, just because you would be billed for it?

You are on the hook for your treatment until either your insurance policy or the other driver pays the hospital.

I would think in the interest of sexual assault prevention, and prosecution, most universities should cough up the bucks for a rape exam.

If chasing down student rape suspects wasn't such a politicized game, they might be doing it already.

The truth is, they are trying to adjudicate cases, that would probably never make it into court because the evidence is so flimsy.

How about, at the time, the other women didn't believe her, and still don't?
_______________________________

The impression I got from READING it was that plenty of girls believed her - especially the ones who saw her first, afterward - but...they didn't really CARE and thought she should just get over it and not do anything to damage UVA's reputation.

I.e., they talked and acted as though forced sex is no more of a big deal than a forced handshake. (Despite the way they made it sound as if consensual sex is no more personal than a handshake, I think it's safe to say they'd never be so callous about a rape by a stranger not connected with the college - whether it hurt UVA's image or not.)
___________________________________

You just don't *not report * this sort of thing. You seek treatment at a hospital.
___________________________________

It's the logical thing to do, of course.

But when someone's in shock, the common thing to do - right or wrong - is to "go home, take a shower, and pretend it didn't happen." The book "Our Bodies, Ourselves" specifically cautions against that knee-jerk reaction - precisely because it's so common.

And it shouldn't take much imagination to guess WHY you might react that way after being viciously attacked. Especially by someone you knew and trusted.
______________________________________

The facts are never going to change your narrative, about this being a problem with educating men Lenona. I get that.

Posted by: Isab at November 26, 2014 11:15 AM
_____________________________________

What exactly is so wrong or barbaric about parents making sure that their sons really DO know that unwanted sex is not just a joke made up by "feminazis"? Or that when he pins her down and forces her, it counts as rape even if he doesn't have a gun or knife? (This is precisely the scenario mentioned on the radio this morning - it seems that many parents don't talk to their sons, who end up getting the wrong ideas about what's legal and what isn't.)

Don't assume your sons know what's a myth and what isn't.

What makes you think that parents don't teach their sons that? Or that hitting other people is wrong?

What makes you think that parents do teach their daughter similar? That forced sex is wrong, that hitting other people is wrong?

You make a lot of assumptions about what is being taught, and what is not, and to whom.

In Louisiana it was common to be billed for that rape kit. When outside doctor's/PAs who are certified to do a rape exam are brought in, instead of normally staffed doctors, then that's where the accounting gets murky, because an outside practitioner would bill the responsible party. However, since this practice and proper outrage was brought to light, Louisiana has recently in the last month stated that they would ensure the victim would not be billed.

And also, I think one thing that is being missed here is the age of the victim (18) and her relative immaturity. There are girls I personally know at that age who I believe an event like this would destroy. Others I know have better coping mechanisms and a strong sense of self. That said, I think it's mighty presumptuous to assume that 18-year-old females should take control after an out-of-control situation and thus go immediately get an exam and start prosecution for the crime. I'm thinking shame, disbelief, fear, social isolation, and many other things play a part in what someone thinks and does after a sexual assault. I have read several accounts of assault and very, very rarely did the female go and immediately seek out the authorities.

> You make a lot of assumptions about
> what is being taught, and what is
> not, and to whom.

☑

> Don't assume your sons know what's
> a myth and what isn't.

Perhaps more than that, don't let your daughters grow up to think that their childish daydreams about flirtation and attraction describe the masculinity of grown men.

Between Disney and the National Organization for Women, girls are getting hammered with stupidities on both sides.

"You make a lot of assumptions about what is being taught, and what is not, and to whom."

Yep. Being young and away from home for the first time, some of that parental advice goes out the window.

The girl in the story admits that her veteran father pushed her to excel in high school studies and band, and emphatically warned her about college parties and the possible trouble. But once she was on her own she thought of dad's advice as too stifling. Oof.

If this account is accurate, either Drew is a sociopath, or I am in coma and everything I perceive is fever dreams.

The whole story smacks of a "Perils of Pauline" melodrama. She's a wide-eyed innocent duped into a savage betrayal by the man she trusted. And then no one will stand by her, not even her friends; she's alone in a cruel world.

I don't know how many of the melodramatic aspects were hers and how many were Rolling Stone's, but spicing up the story didn't help its credibility.

"I.e., they talked and acted as though forced sex is no more of a big deal than a forced handshake"

This is a sentence designed to push your emotional buttons Lenona.

I wonder how close we are as a society to an unwanted pat on the hand or shoulder being the equivalent of sexual assault?

I would like to hear from the so called witnesses personally (and would be willing to bet money) that they don't exist.

The *victim's* version of events stretches my credulity.

But I am naturally suspicious when events get neatly packaged up with pretty wrapping paper, invisible tape, and brightly colored bows for presentation in rags like Rolling Stone.

It just has the smell of *truthiness* about it.

What exactly is so wrong or barbaric about parents making sure that their sons really DO know that unwanted sex is not just a joke made up by "feminazis"?

What is wrong is that the no mean no talk no longer cuts it, a woman no longer has to say no, or stop, or anything. A woman can scream 'yes dont ever fucking stop' and the next morning still call it rape

I wonder how close we are as a society to an unwanted pat on the hand or shoulder being the equivalent of sexual assault?

Pretty damn close, look up the name Fitzroy Barnaby. He pulled a girl out of traffic and is now a sex offender for life.

Say a woman was raped in a WalMart, would we expect WalMart to have the general manager of the store preside over a kangaroo court where the greatest punishment would be expelling the man from the store and refusing to give him his layaway purchases or refund the money?

Lenona,

The vast majority of men in the US are not rapists. And the vast majority of women in the US will not be raped. So men have gotten the message. Trying to further teach men not to rape is a waste of time and insulting to men who know not to rape.

And since the number of rapists is such a small portion of the population the solution is teaching women to report them. Report them immediately and provide as much proof as possible so they can never rape again.

And go to the police! As Lujlp points out, do you want Walmart or Target prosecuting rape? Obviously not! So why would you expect a university to?

Even if we could prove that ALL rapes committed by men over 18 are committed by predators who know exactly what they're doing and don't care (and there's plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise), how in the world is that an excuse for parents not to live up to their duty of making sure they're not turning loose a violent, Jekyll-Hyde type criminal on the world - male or female? Why assume that your kid knows - especially as a TEEN - that wishful thinking and anger don't make a crime not a crime?

Something I posted elsewhere:

Personally, I believe that women would really rather be warned than not warned as to how and when a man tends to rape - it's all in how you say
it. Since parents understandably are afraid of making their daughters angry and defensive, often all they say is "stay away from drinking parties" without saying exactly why, which is why you don't often hear girls complaining of not being warned about such parties.

I would suggest a different approach for parents and teachers alike: Simply hold an all-female class (including the teacher - and do NOT call it a rape prevention class, just say it's about rape), hand out two pieces of paper (one on acquaintance rape and one on stranger rape) with the statistics on the left-hand side of each paper. Then tell them to write their conclusions on the right-hand side of each sheet and keep a copy for themselves (plus maybe give a copy back to the teacher). Then tell them that if they want, you can provide them with some extra advice,
but only if they want it and not if they don't.

Of course, they are free to compare notes after class. That way, they at least have a sense of whom to avoid dating or partying with - and when to avoid it.

(Personally, I've never seen the point of getting drunk even at SINGLE-sex gatherings, because at best, you could end up blurting very embarrassing, private information - and that info could find its way back to the worst person possible. Who wants to risk that?)

And there have to be at least two different approaches when it comes to stopping boys from BECOMING rapists. That is, IIRC, cold-blooded
serial rapists are often narcissists and/or from abusive families, so it's clearly going to be a very complicated and slippery business for
other adults to teach them the empathy lessons that their parents likely never taught them. At the same time, though, it's likely a sad fact that with every new generation of teen boys, there's a sizable number who have to be taught that: 1. No, you can't force a girl into sex just because she wasn't a virgin when you met. 2. No, you can't force her just because you don't believe that unwanted sex exists and you two have been dating for two months and you're sick of waiting for her to be ready. 3. No, you can't force her because you've paid for three restaurant meals in a row and you're angry about it. 4. No, you can't force her just because you two had consensual sex on a previous occasion. 5. Yes, unwanted sex exists, just as you wouldn't want a man to attack you and ignore your screams of "no." Just because a young man doesn't belong to the cold-blooded rapist category doesn't mean he truly understands that unwanted sex really exists - or that a woman's body belongs to her and not to him - or to the public, for that matter. Which is why all boys need those lessons.

Why do so many of these arguments paint men, boys, women, and girls…as fucking idiots?

Look chicas…if you get drunk, you are deciding you don't need your best judgement. That is what alcohol does, and we all know that it does it.

You're also deciding you are 'safe enough' even without your best decision making skills.

If you are making that choice around strangers…you…are…stupid.

That doesn't make it less of a rape when you pass out and some dude gets on top of you.

But I'm going to be praying that my daughter is not as dumb as you.

Like flashing a wad of cash and jewelry in a bad neighborhood, you might not have wanted to be robbed…but you want us to be surprised and apalled? We'll still convict the thief…but we're going to wonder why you left home without your brains that day.

-------

Ladies, if you and he are smashed and you go for it…you're an adult, don't cry foul later. It muddies the waters when serious accusations come out. You should no more charge him, than he can charge you when he wakes up the next day and realizes you're less princess Leia and more Chewbaca.

And if you're drunk and he's not, well again…you decided you didn't need great decision making skills. If you're unhappy with your actions the next day, put on your big girl panties and start making grown up decisions.

If there is one married couple here, one person on here, that has never mixed alcohol with sex, I'm going to call them a goddamn liar or more rare than the Dodo bird.

-------

There isn't a single boy alive, or man, that hasn't heard its not cool to get on top of a passed out girl.

There isn't a single one that hasn't seen rapists in movies being reviled for their crimes. When '300' the entire theater cheered when the Queen swiped the sword and stabbed the man that raped her in the guts and repeated his words to her, back to him.

Men know not to use force on women. Boys grow up being told not to hit girls, not to hurt girls, not to abuse the people they love or even the people they don't like or don't know.

You can't tell them any more.

But some people are evil. They are narcissists who may very well believe even as the girl is screaming and begging on all fours, that she doesn't really mean it, because she got to have that narcissist for the night, and convince himself that she loved it.

Those fantasies are part and parcel to an evil and deeply disturbed mind.

And yes, some men get drunk, and do really stupid things. There was a man in Korea, no record, no history, no crook, got drunk on Soju on his first night there, in a drunken stupor he staggered to a campus dorm, opened the door, beat and sexually assaulted a girl. He woke up the next day, sober, saw what he'd done, and confessed in horror at his own actions.

Alcohol can lead to bad choices, whether these are things you regret, or things you would regret from behind a cell, it is not to be trifled with.

-------

I have my doubts about the allegation that prompted this discussion, but I'll add that Campuses are not proper civil or judicial authorities and have no right or mandate to pursue justice. At best those resources they offer are of temporary comfort and at worst they can support abusive campus policies either against victims or against perpetrators.

We have a civil system in place for support and prosecution and restitution. Report your abuse to those, don't waste time with nannyish and impotent 'college investigations'.