Think you should have asked for another seat. Might have gotten an upgrade.

Nice article.

Bob, thanks -- and as for your suggestion, there were no more seats and I was seated next to Gregg.

Here's Bill Hicks on children on a plane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q3U9xZQf4w

I did tell the woman she was a bad mother when she said "No" -- re: asking her child to be quieter. I was already queasy at this point. What I should have said is what my friend Wendy suggested -- saying, "You're teaching your child selfishness." (Guilt vs. shame.)

But basically, I realized that she was just going to allow the loudness for the whole flight and I wanted to not just let her have her power-grab without some sort of feel-bad.

Big on not letting the willfully rude get away with it without some price.

Well, the mother might have felt a little more guilty had you FIRST mentioned that you desperately needed your sleep. She was probably too clueless to realize that.

But that's unlikely, I guess. A lot of parents believe (probably not without reason) that teaching kids to be kind (especially if that puts the parent in the minority) is too close to teaching them to be doormats, and they're too lazy to teach kids the tricky but happy medium.

Dr. John Rosemond has said more than once that every first-grade teacher he's talked to would far rather have 30 kids who can't read at the beginning of the year than 30 kids who won't stay quiet, sit still, or use polite language. Trouble is, parents will often say, if asked, that they'd rather have a straight-A kid than a humble, ethical kid.

Empathy and ethics are seldom learned properly by osmosis, which is why it's so important for parents to MAKE little kids do things regularly that they don't sincerely "feel" at any given time, such as saying please and thank you.

teaching kids to be kind...is too close to teaching them to be doormats

Huh? I don't see this at all. I assume you mean that there are unkind kids in the world. Kids will figure that out all on their own. There's no excuse for letting your kids be one of the unkind ones.

We have two boys. An uncle of mine, seeing them for the first time, said "ain't it fun watchin' when the big'un makes the littl'un scream?" Which explains a hell of a lot about his children.

Behaving well is wimpy, Showing kindness is weakness. Take what you want, you are more important than anyone else. Children raised like this are not a positive contribute to civilization.

This is when it is good to be Sith.

*low threatening whisper* If you don't take care of the problem, I will.

I give parents with screaming babies a heaping load of forgiveness because I know you can't simply tell a baby (whose ears are exploding) to stop crying please.

But I think three years old is old enough (usually) to tell your kid to stop with a behavior and give consequences when they don't. Even if mom couldn't get her kid to shut up (there aren't many consequences you can give on a plane), she could have tried -- and apologized to you.

I remember a kid around the same age was acting up (talking and giggling loudly) on a plane and not listening to his dad (who was, to his credit, trying to shut him up and had already informed him he wasn't going to be allowed to swim in the hotel pool that night). The older lady sitting across from me crossed the aisle and addressed the child directly and said, "What's your name? Caleb? I'm Susan. Caleb, I am very tired, and a lot of other people are too. You should listen to your dad and try to be quieter."

The kid turned toward the window and shut up -- not a peep after that. But I can understand why very few people would try this technique (given how touchy parents these days are about strangers addressing their special snowflakes).

But I can understand why very few people would try this technique (given how touchy parents these days are about strangers addressing their special snowflakes).

We're living in a culture where no one gives a second thought to classifying someone as a bad driver, a bad server, a bad writer, a bad just-about-anything — but suggesting someone is a bad parent is fighting words, and usually met with "You don't know all the circumstances" and "Everyone has a bad day" and etc. etc. etc.

BUT AMY: What's this about the Observer tying pay into social media shares??? First I'd heard of it. Is there base compensation with more kicked in if a story gets lots of social media shares? Is there click-based compensation?

but suggesting someone is a bad parent is fighting words, and usually met with "You don't know all the circumstances" and "Everyone has a bad day" and etc. etc. etc.

That's why I liked how this lady handled it. No accusations of the dad being a bad parent. She appealed to the kid directly and told him to listen to his dad.

"Also, a mother who sees no reason to actually, you know, parent, is unlikely to start because a lady with a pair of wings pinned to her outfit tells her she should." I have a really hard time with this article, because I just don't find it believable. Plus, the other mother isn't even here to defend herself so how can one possibly know what really happened here. I doubt seriously this child's yelling could be heard over the noise of the plane engine and through your huge earphones. I just don't buy it. As a blogger/writer about "manners" I get the sense that your looking for a "piece" to write, and your using what was probably just a minor issue as a prompt to start what will obviously be a controversial conversation, maybe even drive people to your blog/book. Just because kids are loud, doesn't mean their being underparented. It just means they're not being parented in the way that you personally think they should be. If the high-pitched screaming is actually happening through closed windows, then how do you have any idea what's going on in their lives, what's actually happening at that moment, and where do you get off making judgements about their parenting techniques. I swear, everywhere I look these days, there's people telling parents how badly their parenting. Gah, the internet has birthed far too many self-interested self-exploiting pseudo writing rock stars that really shouldn't be given all the credibility that they're getting. Seriously.

Me:

suggesting someone is a bad parent is fighting words, and usually met with "You don't know all the circumstances" and "Everyone has a bad day" and etc. etc. etc.

Two comments later:

how do you have any idea what's going on in their lives, what's actually happening at that moment, and where do you get off making judgements about their parenting techniques.

Snork.

Speaking of: Where do you get off making judgments about advice columnists and writers? How do you have any idea what's going on their lives, what's actually happening at that moment?

"Just because kids are loud, doesn't mean their being underparented. "

Women's ears and other senses are evolutionarily selected to pick up the sounds of babies, and small children shrieking.

Those women who can sleep through childhood distress ended up with dead kids, so those genes weren't passed on.

I have experienced what Amy is talking about, on trans pacific flights. Admittedly I don't have three hundred dollar head phones, but intermittent wailing and loud chatter is almost impossible to sleep through. Especially if it doesn't stop for long enough for you to actually fall asleep.

It was used as a form of torture to extract information from captured terrorists. That is how effective it is.

teaching kids to be kind...is too close to teaching them to be doormats
_____________________________________

Huh? I don't see this at all. I assume you mean that there are unkind kids in the world.

Posted by: a_random_guy at December 10, 2014 7:02 AM

Maybe I should have said: "A lot of parents believe that teaching kids to be POLITE is too close to teaching them to be doormats."

After all, being polite is often, though not necessarily, about being deferential.

And, as I've mentioned in past threads, the trouble with trying to teach kids the meaning of the word "respect" (for others) is that there are at least four different definitions, whether we're talking about the verb or the noun, and it's unfair to expect little kids to know at any given moment which one you mean. Especially when, to a 3-year-old, having to observe the laws of common courtesy toward strangers FEELS too much like constant deference, because the kid IS deferring - to the parent's orders or a fed-up adult employee.

To clarify, respect is:

1. Grudging acceptance of other people's right to exist, such as when a bully stops hitting random people in school

2. Common courtesy toward "peers," such as avoiding bumping people on the sidewalk

3. Deference, whether to parents, teachers or bosses

4. Admiration, which can only be earned, not ordered.

"didn’t ring the call button to “tattle” on her. Those uniformed men and women walking the plane are flight attendants, not nursery school dispute resolution experts."

I disagree. A flight attendant's job is just that. Attend to the needs of those on the flight, which includes resolving passenger issues, no matter how childish, or child induced. Most passengers are extraordinarily childish anyway, so solving problems related to an actual child instead of those of a forty eight year old child would probably come as a treat.

"Also, a mother who sees no reason to actually, you know, parent, is unlikely to start because a lady with a pair of wings pinned to her outfit tells her she should."

You would be surprised how well parent shaming works in most cases. Most people will usually react to those in authority, especially parents, who usually don't want to undermine their own authority. Try explaining to your four year old why they have to listen to you but you don't have to listen to the flight attendant. Also, in a post 9/11 world, most people are usually to scared they'll get kicked off the flight.

I like your ideas of teaching children empathy Amy, but you can tell you aren't a parent. Most children, whether taught empathy or not, are usually little tyrants until the age of reason.

With some kids it's three, with some it's seven, but under that magical age, the driving motivation is their own gratification. No amount of "teaching" will get a child to share a toy or quiet down if they don't friggin well feel like it.

Unless properly presented with motivating self interest, (such as a whap on the butt if they don't, and a reward if they do,)their own feelings and desires take precedence.

There are those lovely times when children are naturally empathetic, but when it's their needs versus another persons, it's usually me me me me me.

"I doubt seriously this child's yelling could be heard over the noise of the plane engine and through your huge earphones. I just don't buy it."

Nice. You just called your hostess here a liar.

The best you can hope for now is a "takes one to know one" snark.

"I have a really hard time with this article, because I just don't find it believable"

Yeah, those flying monkeys in the story were probably the thing that did it.

Believe me, if I make up a story, it'll have a better payoff.

And it's rather amazing, some of the people in various comments here and elsewhere who find it outrageous that a parent would ask their kid to "use your inside voice."

Oh, the horror.

I don't have as good of noise cancelling headphones as those and they eliminate most all noise. With addition of the ear plugs the story seems unlikely. The one thing I can see maybe happen is active noise cancelling headphones can cancel repetitive noises (like jet engine drone) better than random noises like conversation. Maybe the headphones were clearing out the background noise so the child seemed loader. Still....the plugs...

My guess is that sleeping on the plane is difficult and any tiny thing is a disturbance.

I recently took a red eye and thought I would sleep - I ended up in the row in front of the exit row so my seat did not recline at all. Sucked but oh well.

"Just because kids are loud, doesn't mean their being underparented. "

Yes this does, unless they are at the park. It goes double on an airplane. I have two kids, 9 and 11 now, and they know how to fly and they have to be quiet. They read or watch a movie with headphones. My in-laws live 1,000 miles away so they been flying since they were babies and they've known what the rules are since they were old enough to understand, 3 or 4.

You can make your kids behave. You just have to do it. It's not fun, and you kids might not like you for a while, but it comes with the job. I personally get tired of people who let their kids run rampant because they don't want to be the bad guy, or have to stop what ever they are doing to sit on the kid for a while till he behaves.

If my two boys can behave, so can your special snowflake. Do your damn job.

Just because kids are loud, doesn't mean their being underparented.

No, but when their parents are doing nothing to try to quiet them down, and refuse to try when ask, the kids in question are being under-parented.

Look, I've been the parent with the upset kid on the airplane, feeling horrible about it. Babies and very young toddlers sometimes start crying and nothing can be done about it. And I've known of some small children who have had epic meltdowns on the last leg of international travel (returning home from visiting far-away family) and could not be comforted.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again…you are seriously minimizing the chance that your small child will be wretched on an airplane if you bring things for that child to do. Re-usable sticker pads. Small (quiet) cars. Water pen books. Crayons and paper. Books. Apps for the iPad. Mini-bags of goldfish crackers to eat. Etc. I am willing to bet cold hard cash that the little girl on Amy's flight did not have a sack of fun things to do on the plane, because whenever I've seen non-infant children on flights who are attempting to wreak havoc, they have nothing to do to pass the time.

We haul our twins' car seats through the airport with us. They are the narrowest brand on the market -- which means that, in order to be safe, they have to be *heavy*. (We have a dolly.) Toting two little kids, a diaper bag, two activity bags, two car seats and our own carry-ons (typically containing laptops) through a busy airport, even with a sturdy stroller, is not fun. Wrangling toddlers while trying to get all of the above except the stroller onto the flight AND disassembling the stroller for gate-checking is SUPER un-fun. But we do it because we are not going to be able to enjoy a flight in which our kids are out of control, and air travel is unpleasant enough without adding that to the mix. I can't say that our kids have never, ever disturbed anyone for one second on a given flight, but they have not perpetuated the sustained audio assault that Amy experienced. Goodness knows we make tons of mistakes as parents, but we try to be aware that our children's behavior affects others, and take steps to direct that as appropriate.

Don't want to go to all that trouble? Fine! Don't fly with tiny children until they're, say, eight years old. Or don't have children in the first place. But for heaven's sake, don't get on an enclosed tin can with small children and decide that you can just kick back for the next three hours.

I don't care how smart your kid is. If he can't or won't work well with others, he won't work for me. Loser parents are not helping their special snowflakes

My guess is the mom thought cheerful chatter would be preferable to a tantrum.

It is obvious that you have no children and no idea what children are like. It is also obvious that you make a living telling people why they are not as good as you are. So...you want this child to be taught to be empathetic to others and sit silently so you can sleep because YOU were exhausted. You also talk about how great your parents were because they waited until you were ready to fly and sit still. How nice that your life was so privileged.

Let me educate you on a few things about children and parents.

1. ALL Parents (ALL) hate traveling with their children because of people exactly like you. Do you have any idea what it is like to have someone look at you and your child, roll their eyes and angrily walk away after you have struggled nearly the entire day to prepare for getting on an airplane. Or maybe thank their wives for sitting next to the woman with a child so they could sleep. Do you? Do you know what that feels like to know that most people (who have never met you) hate you and your child and judge your entire existence on this very short interaction.

Every time I travel I am shamed by people like you who assume that my son is going to ruin their time. Did you ask that mother how long she had been up or how exhausted she was trying to prepare a child for travel? Did you ask her why she was traveling or did you take an empathetic approach and say to yourself- wow it must be hard traveling with a child. Or wow it must be hard for this little person.

Parents experience a wash of shame every time that they get on an airplane. Did you ever think that she wanted her to just be quiet too? No you didn't because instead you opted to publicly shame her all over the internet and ask people to help you do it by sharing your shaming article...MY my my how empathetic and well behaved you are.

The other thing that you should know is that air pressure hurts children's ears a lot and a lot more than yours or mine. It makes them antsy and irritable...Google it.

I also want to say you really need to take a look at yourself and ask yourself why you are so impatient with the way the world is that you make a living talking about how everyone sucks but you. I am astounded that you are so spiritually undernourished that you actually hate the sound of children existing around you.... Are those skills of empathy?

Children get very excited (good and bad) when traveling. They get less sleep, less food and often less attention. Their very regular routine gets upset and they act out. FYI- they are people and they have bad days and no drugs, internet or headphones to stuff their emotions way down into their self-righteous stomachs.

I'm sorry that us breeders bother you so much, but I want to leave you with something. Children experience life as it happens. When you are a very old woman you can either look back on your life and say I tried to be happy or say I spent my life telling people how fucked up they are because I valued the wrong things. When you sell all of your shit and abandon self righteousness and dedicate your life to making the world a better place, maybe just then you will have the right to sit in judgement of us all.

Bigger things are happening in the world then your inability to sleep and listen to Sarah McLaughlin. Maybe you should take some of your own advice and plan better next time. Instead of judging a mother for only packing a book for her daughter along with all of her shit and her daughters shit...maybe you should get more rest before you fly. Be more empathetic to others who don't want to see your spoiled childless rant all over the internet.

PS Every parent is doing the best that they can and that woman did not deserve this. If I had been on that flight, I would have used your lack of empathy as a lesson for my son and it would go like this.

That woman is struggling inside. We need to give her a break because remember hurt people HURT people.

Stephanie, I hope you find somebody to tighten that loose screw.

I didn't tell the mother her child was devilspawn who belonged under the plane. I simply asked her to ask her daughter to be a little quieter.

Teaching children to "use your inside voice" and such -- appropriate behaviors for environments -- is an essential part of parenting (not to mention considerate behavior).

Stephanie, I didn't ask that the child be SILENT, merely not so loud.

"Did you ever think that she wanted her to just be quiet too?" If she wanted her to be quiet (or quieter) she would have talked to her -- perhaps using the example from the end of my piece or something like it -- to ask her to do that.

What she's teaching her child is selfishness and entitlement. She's hurting her child, not helping her, by giving her impression that other people's needs don't need to be balanced with our own. This is what we call "consideration." If you aren't able or willing to teach it to a child, you should find someone to sew your vagina shut.

I teach such kids, albeit only the ones parents wont corral, words such as "fuck", and "bitch" and if really pissed off, racial slurs

"ALL Parents (ALL) hate traveling with their children because of people exactly like you."

If they hate it so much, they wouldn't be traveling.

Looks of disapproval are not a form or harassment, however much your thin skinned self thinks that they should be.

No one is forcing you to get on the plane sweetie.

Even my highly verbal dinner table chatterbox, knew better than to talk non stop in a loud voice on an airplane.

I have sympathy for military families with kids traveling overseas. They have a legitimate reason to be on a plane. Almost everyone else has better alternatives, and with a little effort could teach their children not to be annoying.

PS Every parent is doing the best that they can and that woman did not deserve this.
All evidence to the contrary. On both points.

So....you shamed a woman all over the internet and asked people to help you do it by sharing your article AND you make a living shaming people and telling them why they are not as good as you...oh and lets not forget the whole sewing the vagina shut thing...

Because she didn't tell her daughter to use her inside voice

AND I have a screw loose because I think its not ok to do those things nor is it ok to decide about what kind of parent that woman is based on one interaction...ok...Ill take my loose screw and ignore you now as EVERYONE SHOULD.

Find a calling because I sure hope that this isn't going to be your life's work.

Hey Stephanie, was that you on the plane?

Most passengers are extraordinarily childish anyway,

Rubbish.

--

That woman is struggling inside. We need to give her a break because remember hurt people HURT people.

We get it. You're a lousy disciplinarian. You can state it more concisely the next time.

Wow. Just WOW!

Stephanie;

I don't necessarily agree with some of Amy's points. That's why I started out with "I disagree". You don't have to attack people for having opinions differing from your own. The point of a comment section is debate, not personal attack. (AHEM****HERE'S LOOKING AT YOU, CRID!****)

It sounds to me like your child is special needs. My own son had special needs when he was an infant and toddler. I hated the pitying stares, the dirty looks, and the nosy questions. But you can't lump everyone in the same boat. You'll notice that Amy described it as "underparented" not "bad parented". Which I will agree with.

You can't refuse to consider the needs of others because you think your childs needs should take precedence, special needs or not. You have to put some effort in. Whether or not your efforts are successful is a different matter entirely. Amy is getting at the fact that this woman made no effort to consider other people above her own childs needs.

And in that, she is right.

"Rubbish"

HA! Work a day in customer service, and then tell me that. Work a day in the transport industry, and then tell me that. Hell, work a day in a restaurant, and then tell me that.

Whether people like to admit it or not, *most* everyone these days are really snappily dressed forty eight year old children with driver's licenses.

While i am not fond of plane rides i gotta say i havent experienced the hate stephanie has... I did have some ask me why she couldnt goto sleep once. Politely, as he could see i was trying. I survived. I might just be oblivious tho

You can't refuse to consider the needs of others because you think your childs needs should take precedence, special needs or not. You have to put some effort in. Whether or not your efforts are successful is a different matter entirely. Amy is getting at the fact that this woman made no effort to consider other people above her own childs needs.

And in that, she is right.

Yes, that, exactly. I don't agree with Amy on everything regarding child-rearing and the like (and what a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything!), but asking a parent who is clearly making no effort to modify the effect of her child's behavior on others to try to make an effort is perfectly reasonable. I'm very sorry that Stephanie has experienced such "hate," but the significant majority of children do not have special needs to the point at which they cannot be guided. Responding to all requests that parents consider the impact of their children's behavior on others with "but some kids have special needs and you're being insensitive!" isn't helping anyone.

At some point, the vast majority of children will have jobs and lives that will require them to play nicely with others. To do that, they will have to have been taught the necessary skills. Claiming that they're special snowflakes who don't need to take others into account is NOT going to help them in life. The parents of special needs children that I know constantly try to balance the needs of their children for socialization with the needs of others. It's a tough, tough job, and one that needs to be supported, but not by claiming that *all* parents get a free pass in terms of their children's public behavior. I would love my kids just as much if they had special needs, but my life is easier because they don't -- I feel that I owe it to the parents of real special needs kids not to try to avoid the relatively easy job of parenting my kids in public. (Key word there: Relatively.)

Heather handles it differently than I did Amy.

My son was quite visibly special needs. He was deaf by the age of two months. Fortunately, with surgery and therapy, it was correctable.

His deafness lead to tantrums, because he was so frustrated. He also couldn't listen to instructions. I got really tired of explaining the situation to people, only to be met with seriously nosy questions, and pity.

So I stopped explaining. This led to the dirty looks. I did try to take other people into account, I just didn't explain when I wasn't sucsessful.

Airplane snob could have at least tried. Who knows, maybe she was. But prolly not.

Heather handles it differently than I did Amy.

My son was quite visibly special needs. He was deaf by the age of two months. Fortunately, with surgery and therapy, it was correctable.

His deafness lead to tantrums, because he was so frustrated. He also couldn't listen to instructions. I got really tired of explaining the situation to people, only to be met with seriously nosy questions, and pity.

So I stopped explaining. This led to the dirty looks. I did try to take other people into account, I just didn't explain when I wasn't sucsessful.

Airplane snob could have at least tried. Who knows, maybe she was. But prolly not.

One more thing to what I said above (this is with regard to the importance of empathy in kids, later in life):

In every new generation of teens, there will likely ALWAYS be a dimwitted minority among them that honestly believes that if you drive drunk and hit someone, fatally or not, that should be considered an accident, not a crime.

Does that give the parents of such teens the right to throw up their hands and do nothing? Of course not. It means that it's nothing more than the parents' moral duty to do whatever it takes (including, gasp, medication, at times) to shake some sense into their teens before it's too late. This can be DIFFICULT, of course, but it still has to be done. Same goes for teaching empathy at earlier stages - it can take a lot longer than you like, but it still has to be done, for everyone's sake, including your own kid's sake.

Have you run across this?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/12/a-baby-just-handed-me-this-on-my-flight-i-aint-mad/

HA! Work a day in customer service, and then tell me that. Work a day in the transport industry, and then tell me that. Hell, work a day in a restaurant, and then tell me that.

I'll tell you that again. You said "most passengers are incredibly childish". Which is a lie, and everyone who is a customer in any of these venues on a day to day basis knows it. The problem is your unearned conception that you're superior to the ordinary run of humanity.

And Thank you, Art Deco, fir proving my point, by childishly attacking me personally because you arrogantly assume you know enough about me to decide I feel superior to everyone. I don't. I've just worked with the public enough to know. And I've run into enough people like you and Stephanie to know.

Cheers!

jdgalt, yes, thanks -- I've seen that. Nice.

And one last thing -- "Every parent is doing the best that they can..."

No they're certainly not!

I have an autistic child. That means he sometimes makes odd gestures and noises in public, and has to be reminded to lower the volume of his voice when speaking. These involuntary spasms, for lack of a better term, have always been difficult for him to control.

However, part of my job as his mother has been to teach and reinforce that control. He is only one person in a world of billions, and others have to be considered. To my mind, my son's autism doesn't mean he has the right to disturb people eating a meal in a restaurant or trying to watch a film in a theater. When he was a lot younger I simply avoided quiet restaurants, a suggestion made above.

It's not just to the benefit of those around him, either. Someday he will have to navigate the adult world, and someday he will very likely have to do so without my guidance because I will be dead. The more he is able to interact normally (again for lack of a better term) the better off he will be.

His self-control falters when he is especially stressed or fatigued, for instance when traveling. I will put my hand on his shoulder and quietly remind him he is in public and needs to settle down.

Of course as a parent you feel bad for your child when they are struggling. But to parent from a place of sympathy or guilt is not only helping nobody, it's actually a form of selfishness. It's putting your feelings above what is best for the child and best for society.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying I disagree with Stephanie.

And Thank you, Art Deco, fir proving my point, by childishly attacking me personally because you arrogantly assume you know enough about me to decide I feel superior to everyone. I don't.

Your initial statement was incredible, you've doubled down twice and you've lied again.

And one last thing -- "Every parent is doing the best that they can..."

No they're certainly not!

Posted by: Amy Alkon at December 12, 2014 10:54 PM
_____________________________

Exactly. Stephanie seemed to be saying that there MUST have been a perfectly good reason for the mother not to make the girl speak more softly - or for the mother to refuse your polite request so bluntly, with no explanation, since Stephanie, in theory, would have had a very good reason to be so rude. (What could that possibly be?)

Sorry, no, just because YOU'RE trying really hard as a parent to keep your kid from being a nuisance doesn't mean most screaming kids can't be gently tricked into quieting down - if the parents really WANTED to do that.

Reminds me of the social cliche that the members of Bratfree have turned into a derisive abbreviation: PMYABP. I.e., Parenting Makes You a Better Person. All too often, if it doesn't make you even more selfish toward strangers and society in general (more than one scientist has pointed out that parents have less time to contribute to the community's needs, so they often don't), the pressures will, as Bratfree members often point out, drive you to beat or kill your kids instead. (Or at least use them as accomplices in your shoplifting, out of a sense of entitlement.)

And, I'd add, if the mother on the plane had had a bad headache, she'd have come up, in no time, with at least half a dozen subtle but EFFECTIVE ways to make the kid pipe down!

So what, I ask, is the difference when you're stuck in close quarters with dozens of strangers, at least a few of which likely need some peace and quiet - desperately? For multiple possible reasons?

Speaking of the need to teach empathy, BTW, Paul Ehrlich was interviewed this morning on the radio. (His 2012 book, co-authored by Robert E. Ornstein, is "Humanity on a Tightrope: Thoughts on Empathy, Family, and Big Changes for a Viable Future.")

Excerpt from the description:

"... Humanity on a Tightrope focuses on what families and family values are, and how they often create an 'us versus them' mentality that is at the root of many of today's most crucial problems from terrorism, racism, and war to the failure of humanity to come to grips with potentially lethal global environmental problems. The book underlines a basic element for solving the human predicament — quickly spreading the domain of empathy. It takes a close look at how we can do that, building on the findings of both social and natural science and using tools ranging from brain imaging to the internet. It explains how civilization is unlikely to persist unless many more people learn to put themselves in the shoes of others to keep society balancing on the tightrope to sustainability - a tightrope suspended over the collapse of civilization."

(And, I should add, Ehrlich freely admitted this morning that some of his 1960s predictions turned out to be quite wrong - but also that scientists' predictions are seldom accurate - that is, seldom 100% right.)

And so that mentality will continue, in part because, like China and India, America really could - or should - be having Far Fewer Babies, but since those Americans who become parents won't acknowledge this, they naturally get hostile toward those who won't give them the extra space and resources the parents think they deserve.

(It also accounts for all those times a couple thinks they've come up with a unique name for their kid - only to find there are two or three others with that name at the school or in the neighborhood.)

"Nothing except diamonds is above the law of scarcity value."

Art Deco;

If it makes you feel better, sure, we'll pretend you haven't proven my point twice for me already, and I'll agree with you.

*smiles and nods*

The customer is always right!