"If I'm on a trans-Atlantic overnight flight, I'm expected to work the next morning and need what little sleep I can get." -- nope, sorry, your work situation is not my problem. Last flight back from Paris the group of 6 traveling around me spent most of the flight standing in the isle yakking bumping my chair the entire time. Transatlantic flights suck, deal.

"you have the obligation to conform the kid's behavior to the expectations of others " -- again nope, unless you're paying, I could give a rat's ass what you think. If the airline/restaurant/what ever has a problem with me or my kids, they can take it up with me. Unless you own the place, I have a giant bucket that contains all the fucks I give about what you think.

There are any number of things that turn flights into living hell, for me its been crying babies 1 -- asshole, inconsiderate adults about 20, including the lady on my last flight who reclined her seat all the way back while the plane was still climbing to cruising altitude and left it there until we went to land. You want to recline your seat, pay to sit in the seats that are further apart, I don't want you f'ing seat in my face the entire flight. Or the person who stuffed their feet between the seats to stretch out, or the lady behind me who bumped my seat for 4 hours, or the guy next too me who insisted on keeping the arm rest up so he could spread his legs into my area. Crying babies suck, but get real, it's not like they are a 10 on the suck o'meter, and the crap everyone else is doing is a 3. It's all a 10.

You've got it backwards, you don't want a reclining seat in your face YOU pay for a seat that is further apart. The seats recline, when I pay for one I expect to be able to do so. If there is an exceptionally tall person behind me they can ask me and we can work something else, but otherwise I expect to use what I paid for.

I expect the person in front of me will recline as well. They pretty much always do.

It's pure fantasy to think that families with small kids are not going to use air travel. I tend to deal better with babies because I know they have no other way to communicate. It sucks but it is less irritating to me than most adult jerks. Now once a child can understand the word "no", I expect the parent to at least attempt to parent. It's the expectation that anything their child does is okay that gets to me. Very similar to adults whose own behavior is rude - they think whatever they do should be tolerated by others.

@Jeff: that's exactly right.

People should be, and generally are considerate of others around them. However, no one's needs trump another's. As Jeff says: the needs of the business traveler are no more (and no less) important than the needs of the parent with the infant.

I remember flying transatlantic with an 11 month old, transatlantic. Crying is really annoying, so I kept him amused. He crawled back and forth past people's seats for an hour or more, with me watching to make sure he didn't start tugging on pant legs. Happy as a clam, and it tired him out.

Did that annoy some people? Maybe. Tough. Their other choice would have been for me to keep him in his seat - and listening to him scream out of frustrated boredom. At one point, my 11mo was getting fussy, and a guy offered him a piece of chocolate. IIRC that was his first chocolate ever - the look of shocked enjoyment was pretty amazing, and it worked a charm.

Airline flights in coach *are* the family restaurants of air travel. If you want your peace and quiet, buy a business class ticket.

That said, nowadays I only fly when it is unavoidable - maybe once every 3-4 years. Chuck-e-cheese at least attempts to make their restaurant comfortable and pleasant. The airlines seem determined to make the experience as unpleasant as possible. TSA*, slow-moving lines to check your luggage, the incredible shrinking airline seat, etc..

*Yes, TSA is their responsibility. If they cared enough, they could do something about it.

Ok, Jeff is mad, and therefore he is justified in acting just like everyone else – in their own interests, not with the welfare of others in mind.

Jeff:

"you have the obligation to conform the kid's behavior to the expectations of others " -- again nope, unless you're paying, I could give a rat's ass what you think. If the airline/restaurant/what ever has a problem with me or my kids, they can take it up with me. Unless you own the place, I have a giant bucket that contains all the fucks I give about what you think.

Jeff, I have three letters for you: GFY. You want to interact in areas that are shared by the public? You will do what it takes to control your brats. If that means taking them outside the restaurant to calm them, and you return to a cold meal, then that's what you do. And I have a giant bucket that contains all the fucks I give. You have no right to inflict your brats' ear-splitting shrieks on other people. You chose to have them; you control them. Period.

You don't like it? Then don't have kids, or forego going out until they know how to behave themselves in public.

Otherwise, you'll deal with people like me, who will complain to the management, who will tell you to control your brats or clear out.

Welcome to civilization. You'll find it places more demands on you than the remote cave you obviously live in to cultivate attitudes like yours. But the rest of us prefer it. No one's stopping you from returning to the cave if you can't be bothered to control your spawn.

"You chose to have them; you control them. Period."

Patrick, they do not come w/"off" switches and get ear aches just like some adults do when they fly.

"Welcome to civilization."

The future of civilization is more dependent upon kids than any single adult so suck it up. The reality is that unless the plane is full of singles going to a cruise you are going out the window before a kid so been nice.

I seldom fly. Kids have nothing to do with it. Delays, rude TSA agents, extra charges for luggage which then is lost are reasons enough. With VTC, phones, e-mail, fax, overnight delivery and good ole snail-mail, there's little reason travel for work, and I've found a huge number of interesting places to visit and great eateries within a day's drive.

So, snowflakes, you choose to fly. Life is full of annoyances. A friend's child suffers from cystic fibrosis. To me, a crying kid signals a healthy set of lungs. You don't have an idea of how fortunate you are. In your self- asorbed world Mummise and Popcicle have helicoptered in to smother your emotional development to the level that you have to see a therapist because some mean girl in your dorm called you a b*tch or you call 911 because there's a mouse in your apartment. Try that in my world and I'll outline the book I'm thinking of writing - Manners for Nice People Who Sometimes Say F*ck Off.

You have no right to change the environment in a plane because you decided to have children. And by "change the environment," I mean from the dull roar of the engines to forcing other people who are on the plane to hearing your child scream -- perhaps for hours.

I wrote about this in 2009 in the LA Times:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/24/opinion/la-oe-alkon24-2009nov24

Granted, there sometimes are extenuating circumstances, reasons parents and their little hell-raiser simply must take a plane. Well, actually, there are two: dire family emergency (Granny's actually dying, not just dying to see the little tyke) and the need for a lifesaving operation for the wee screamer. In all other cases, if there's any chance a child is still in the feral stage, pop Granny on a flight or gas up the old minivan. It really does come down to this: Your right to bring your screaming child on a plane ends where the rest of our ears begin.

Bob in Texas: Patrick, they do not come w/"off" switches...

Yes, they do. It's called Benedryl. Use it. It will make the experience more pleasant for everyone, including you and your demonseed you call a child.

Think of those children as the people you are counting on to take care of you in the nursing home and hospice and it will go easier.

The frustration inherent in flying coach is not the fault of crying babies. It's the fault of the airlines.

In order to squeeze more money out of each flight (necessary to pay off the various unions' ever-inreasing demands and escalating fuel prices), the seats are closer together, the flight is expensive, and the frills are minimal. It used to be you got an actual meal served with real utensils. Now, you get an exorbitantly priced "snack box" and, if you're lucky, a plastic utensil that will break as soon as you try to use it. Flying coach has become as wonderful an experience as a third-world bus trip. Last flight, I was stuck in the back of the plane with two mujahadeen and some sheep.

Add to this smelly and rude fellow passengers and you've got a recipe for discontent.

And the passengers are getting worse. I don't which one I hate more, the guy who parks his luggage int he first overhead compartment and then goes back to his seat in the back of the plane (no wrestling his luggage through the aisle for this guy - screw the guy who's actually sitting in that seat and might need the overhead for his own luggage), the guy who puts all of his nine carryons in the overhead bin (screw the people coming behind him, he needs leg room), or the guy who brings the smelliest meal he can find in the airport onto the plane.

Jeff's comment is funny. The rest of us who expect some basic courtesy need to get over ourselves, unless we're that jerk reclining into Jeff, then its somehow different...

How typical.

Part of why we bought an RV and road trip it. We've discovered it's cheaper and way more fun this way :)

Conan, I agree that airlines have made the flying experience increasingly unpleasant, and I don't think crying babies are the reason that flights are unpleasant. There were no babies on the plane the last two times I flew. Or, at the very least, I didn't see or hear any.

The point is that crying babies and parents who refuse to even try to quiet them only add to the unpleasantness.

And the points you listed are exactly right. I remember when they used to serve meals on planes and didn't charge extra for it. I used to joke about how the airplane food always had grill marks on it. Like we're supposed to believe someone is working the grill at 30,000 feet.

Nowadays you actually pay exorbitant fees for a tiny snack and drink, which is served in an eight-ounce plastic cup that's mostly ice.

I also thinks the seats have gotten narrower, in addition to having the rows crammed closer together.

As for the complaints about people who overdo the carryons, I believe there was a time when the price of stowing your suitcase was included in the ticket. Now you pay extra for it.

Fen nails it.

This is one case where I actually disagree with Amy. I had my kids - ages 6 and 3 at the time - on a flight from the East Coast to Vegas. We hit turbulence and the lady right behind my kids started screaming "We're all going to die!" over and over again for about 10 minutes.

Obviously, that frightened my kids. BUT, my kids are generally well-behaved and when we disembarked, the folks a row ahead of us noticed -for the first time - that they were seated in front of kids.

Sure, there was a chance my kids would have flipped out (like that lady) or sometime. That chance always exists with kids even as old as 10. I don't think that should preclude parents from flying with kids. However, I DO think people'd be a lot less hostile if they saw more parents actually trying to manage their children's behavior on flights. When we flew when the kids were younger, we'd bring soft balls - more than needed - because we usually ended up giving some to other kids who needed distractions.

Fen is absolutely correct. Jeff is one of life's premiere assholes who makes life that much more sucky for decent people.

Not gonna lift a goddamned finger to control his screaming brats to keep them from annoying passengers, but becomes a screaming brat himself when someone reclines their seat into his (at least he thinks so) personal space.

Expects everyone else to suck up his rudeness, but doesn't want to suck up anyone else's.

Benadryl. Sure. Dose your kid with it good, then find out your kid gets a paradoxical reaction and they literally can NOT be still, for 6 or 8 hours. Not to mention, drugging a kid is abuse, I don't care if you got it over the counter. Glad you won't be having kids, Patrick.

I flew all the time with mine, by myself, until those stupid-ass scanners went in and I will NOT have my kids groped or scanned, so...we drive. You know the only times my kids were ever less than impeccably behaved? (And yes, I DO mean impeccably. It's rare we go anywhere without someone telling me how well behaved my kids are. They save their shitty behavior for home.)1: the twins were 3 months old, they were fine until the toddler across the aisle starting shrieking in fear, then of course they started crying because babies sympathy cry. 2) Um.......yeah. That's it. I'm pretty sure most of you decrying kids on planes have acted worse than mine. You've let out a SBD gas attack, put your legs/feet places others don't want them, snored when you fall asleep, dropped your head on someone's shoulder when you fall asleep, talked too loud, had halitosis, were obnoxious perfume, tried to chat with seatmates.....humans are obnoxious. We can only stand the ones in our circle. The rest of the time? Grin and bear it with the rest of us, we don't like you either.

Not gonna lift a goddamned finger to control his screaming brats to keep them from annoying passengers, but becomes a screaming brat himself when someone reclines their seat into his (at least he thinks so) personal space.

Expects everyone else to suck up his rudeness, but doesn't want to suck up anyone else's.

In other words: the modern parent, ladies and gentlemen.

As we saw in the original example, It Takes a Village when the parent wants help, but when it comes to reciprocity it's just Go Fuck Yourself, I Have a Kid.

Well, before we bash ALL parents; I'd like to shout out a big thank you to the parent/guardian who thought allowing her kids to bring the electronic toy, Simon Says, with flashing lights and SOUNDS was a great idea to keep her kids occupied during the flight.

That was one enjoyable flight!

Almost as much fun as the flight on which a super double-wide passenger stuffed his extra carry-ons under the seat in front of me - taking up MY foot space. And for having his rolls of sweaty body fat pushing up against me OVER the arm rest that was supposed to separate our individual spaces.

Oh, and let me not forget to send a special thank you to the flight attendants and co-pilot who threatened to have me "removed" from the flight to daring to speak up and say that I excepted the space I paid for.

You're all such wonderful and considerate people!

momof4: Benadryl. Sure. Dose your kid with it good, then find out your kid gets a paradoxical reaction and they literally can NOT be still, for 6 or 8 hours. Not to mention, drugging a kid is abuse, I don't care if you got it over the counter. Glad you won't be having kids, Patrick.

And I'm sorry as hell that you do have kids. I hope they turn out well in spite of it. And by the way, the fact that I'm gay is no insurance that I will never have children. As deplorable as you might find it, we can and do have children.

Yes, giving your kids an over-the-counter anti-allergy medicine, which is perfectly acceptable to give to children (ask any pediatrician), is abusing your children and drugging them. Paramedics in the field give it to children all the time, to calm children. It's also a potent anti-anxiety medicine, as well. Safer than Xanax, safe for the long-term use (unlike Xanax, which is not safe for long-term use) and is non-habit forming (again, unlike Xanax). I use it myself (as prescribed by my physician) for just that reason.

But by all means, don't do a goddamned thing to help your children cope with a long, boring flight. Let them be bored and miserable and annoy other passengers. Wouldn't want you abusing your children by drugging them. Just abuse them by letting them be bored and confined to a chair with nothing to do for hours on end.

M4, you're a sanctimonious, brainless fuckhead. Why don't you try learning something about Benadryl before you decide giving it to children to keep them calm is child abuse. Oh, wait. That would require a modicum of intellectual curiosity. And God knows, you self-righteous know-it-alls don't have that.

I had cranky noisy kids. I have a cranky noisy dog. I don't know why this is. But I put my dog up when company comes over and whenever we were out, I separated myself from the public to quiet my kids. I don't understand this very self-centered view point society has gotten to, where our self-serving comfort is more important than the comfort of others.

Anyway, that comment to Patrick was way out of line MOF. I don't know why you're being so bitchy and sanctimonious, usually you're not. Hope your night gets better. And Patrick would honestly make a great dad.

I had cranky noisy kids. I have a cranky noisy dog. I don't know why this is. But I put my dog up when company comes over and whenever we were out, I separated myself from the public to quiet my kids. I don't understand this very self-centered view point society has gotten to, where our self-serving comfort is more important than the comfort of others.

Exactly, gooseegg.

Patrick, I'm a fucking RN. I'd report your ass to CPS if you came into the hospital and said you gave Benadryl to knock your kid out. I'd have to, I'm a mandatory reporter and it IS abuse. Call me names all you want. Doesn't change the facts, whether you like them or not.

You'd get in trouble with your MDs and you know it if you reported it. You're assuming someone who doses a kid with Benadryl because they're crying does it all the time so they don't have to parent instead of it being a one time thing. Benadryl is Diphenhydramine HCl. Comes in 25 mg dosing. As does ZzzQuil and Equate Nighttime. Exact same thing. Why do kids cry on planes? The pressure on their ears is intense, more than with adults. Why wouldn't you give them something for relief? How bout something with the indication for sleep in infants and toddlers already widely deemed safe though with a different allergic indication?

Grow up and get off your perch. You may not agree with it, but this isn't putting alcohol in a bottle or nursing while on meth. And you'd be in some serious shit if you reported a mom for doing it, not with CPS, but with your docs. Because if I went to my pediatrician and asked them what to do to help my kid who is uncomfortable and cries on planes, guess what they'd tell me to do?

Well, I'm glad to know you're a fucking RN. I didn't know that hospitals provided RNs for fucking, but I guess sexual rehabilitation needs someone to do the job. Are you, by chance, the Head Nurse?

I suggest you start talking to every doctor you know who's a parent and start reporting them. (And watch CPS give a collective yawn and wonder who the crazy, sanctimonious woman is.)

It seems doctors actually approve of doing this, when done only rarely:

A hit of Benadryl before a long trip is pretty standard practice, though it may not win you Mother of the Year award (except maybe from your fellow passengers on a cross-country flight).

“I suspect that one in five is low,” said Dr. Nancy Snyderman, NBC’s chief medical editor, who says parents should talk to their pediatricians about proper dosage. (She adds that every doctor she knows who’s also a parent has tried this trick at some point, so don’t feel shy about telling your doctor.)

Look at that. A chief medical editor not only advocates this, but encourages parents to talk to their doctors about the right dosages to do this! And every doctor she knows, who is also a parent, has actually done this!

Better start reporting.

(If you care to read the article, it shows there is a distinction between using it to keep your child quiet on a long flight, as opposed to doing it every night to make them go to bed.)

I have tried to have at least civil exchanges with you in the past, but lately, I don't know why I bothered to make the effort. I've been on this blog since the inception and you are, hands down, the most self-righteous person that has ever been on it, and that includes even the obnoxious ones that Amy was compelled to ban (something she does very rarely).

Every time a parenting issue comes up, your only response, of course, is to point out that you're always right, as opposed to people who aren't parents, because you are a parent. Never mind that there are people who are parents who shouldn't be allowed withing fifty miles of an innocent kid.

To say nothing of your uncontainable contempt of gay people, assuring yourself that you're just oh, so much better than any gay person because, you're a Christian and you're not gay.

Perhaps if you spent more time with your New Testament, since you're such a fine, upstanding Christian, you'd realize two significant facts. 1) Homosexuality wasn't such a pressing issue that Jesus felt the need to weigh in on the subject; he said absolutely nothing about it. And 2) the one sin that Jesus spent more time denouncing than any other is self-righteousness. Matthew 7: 1, 2; the aborted stoning of the adulteress (John 8: 1-11), the prodigal son's older brother (Luke 15:11-32). The parable of the Publican and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). Basically, just look up the references to Pharisees and you'll find tons of it.

I'm sick of dealing with your smug, contemptuous attitude. I've put up with your condescension for years, and I'm just not going to. There is no getting along with you. You're patronizing holier-than-thou (Isaiah 65:5), and every time you pull your usual crap on me, I'm going tell you that you can shove it up your nether regions. No charge for the assistance. It's charity work.

If the airline/restaurant/what ever has a problem with me or my kids, they can take it up with me. Unless you own the place, I have a giant bucket that contains all the fucks I give about what you think.

Deer Jerkwad,

If your kid is screaming for 5 minutes, that's a sign that something is wrong. Your kid, you have a responsibility to deal with it.

If you can't be bothered, well, I feel sorry for the children you have and may yet sire.

"As for the complaints about people who overdo the carryons, I believe there was a time when the price of stowing your suitcase was included in the ticket. Now you pay extra for it. "

Yep, used to be two bags free per person. And there was no compulsion to take anything aboard other than things that you might use during the flight, because bags were handled more carefully and baggage claim at the end of the flight was a lot faster.

Game the system. If it's a short trip, pack your stuff in a carryon-size bag. Then, at the gate, "volunteer" to have it gate-side checked. You'll get it back within a few minutes of disembarking, and best of all, it's free and the airline will be grateful to you for not carrying it on. Some airlines will even check it all the way through to your destination, so you don't have to drag it with you at the hub airport.