Did no one tell her her fifteen minutes of fame are up?

Was she black when she sued Howard University?

Saying she's not black because she was born white is like saying Caitlyn Jenner is not a woman because she was born male.

Small correction: Not the Today show, an apparently syndicated talk show called The Real.

"identify as"
What an utter complete BS phrase. If I identify as Amy Alkon, does that make me the Advice Goddess?

;)

mer, just FYI, the position comes with the ADHD and the clutter.

And thanks, Mark. Changed!

Hey, the ACLU and the justice department are suing to let boys who say they feel like girls full access to the girls locker room. I can't see how gender is any different than race in this context.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-school-district-transgender-ruling/

I would have been willing to say I was a girl in high school if it came with boobies. Quite frankly most guys would. In addition you get to play on the girls sports teams.

So it's okay for her to have dreadlocks and to "work hard"?

What Ken said.

It would be interesting to see a venn diagram of the people who think Jenner should be allowed to identify as a woman, (even though he hasnt had he willy sliced in half and stuffed inside himself), and those who think Dolezal should not be allowed to identify as black.

Melanin content is a far smaller genetic component than gender.

Y'know, in a world where we really did judge people based on the content of their character, her race wouldn't matter.

To paraphrase Lionel Hutz:

"Ms. Dolezal, I don't use the word 'hero' lightly, but you are the greatest hero in American history."

Not this bullshit of Jenner again.

It's quite simple.

Race is cultural, sex is biological.

The reason she can not identify as black is because blackness is largely cultural. There is no "black" brain, there is however a transgendered brain.

Race is extremely relative. Sex is not.

Whether you think being transgendered is a mental illness is a different matter. But it is biological. And the current best treatment we have is allowing a sex change. If I could chop off my arm to somewhat improve my bipolar brain I would really consider it and expect you as society not to be such rude cunts about it. Disagree with it all you want but I would expect no open violent hostility. If the docs say I'm good in what I'm doing (after years of research) then people like Ben can fuck off.

No I'm not ok with her identifying as black. She probably does have a mental illness but the best treatment isn't to allow her to be black. It's to shove some reality and possibly pills into her. Two things that have never worked with the transgendered (we uh already tried).

And yes I am ok with Jenner identifying as a woman. Until there is better treatment for the transgendered I don't give a shit how they achieve happiness.

So you are cool with the unisex locker rooms Ppen? Cause that is exactly what is happening with the 'identifies as' stuff. It also means no more gendered sports. Which actually means no more women's sports.

John Hopkins, which was a pioneer of sex changes, no longer performs the operation, as it finds the treatment ineffective in reducing depression. Just an interesting note.

If I see a MTF in my locker room I will grab my heart, faint, and request someone bring me my smelling salts. Next you'll be telling me women who are attracted to other women can use the locker rooms I use too!

My take on the locker rooms: if it has a wang, it goes in the men's room. Yeah, this sucks in some people transitioning to female. But hey, guys like to look at boobs.

I will add, though, that some recent data is showing that sex change is not particularly effective at reducing depression or gender confusion in the people who undergo it.

I don't care if it's effective or not. Most transgendered people don't even do it and seem to improve by just living as their new gender.

And what kind of wang? A very enlarged clitoris from hormone therapy? Like I said most transgendered individuals don't do the bottom surgery. Buck Angel belongs in a men's locker room not a woman's.

Sorry Ppen, all the rest of us want is for people like you to fuck off and leave us alone. Tolerance is clearly not a two way street.

And your argument is farcical. You say sex is fluid but culture is not. Ever heard of immigration? People join american culture all the time. Heck, cultural imperialism is a common complaint. So a culture based on superficial physical appearance cannot be adopted by others but blatant physical differences are not significant?

As for the article I linked, the school bent over backwards for that guy. He is not a MTF. He is just an M. They let him play on the girls sports teams. They let him use the girls locker room to change. The only requirement was to change behind a privacy curtain because his teammates didn't want to look at his wang. Welp, too bad. If you won't look at his wang then he says you are an evil person and should go to jail. This is not tolerance. It is pure and undiluted narcissism. Everything must be done how he wants. All others be damned. A clear case of tyranny of the minority.

Personally I just want some clarity and uniformity. The feminists love selectively enforcing things like this. That is why there are mix sex and women's only chess. Apparently men only was sexist but women only is not. A blatant case of discrimination by judge. Similarly the WNBA should be disbanded. And no more male/female Olympics.

I do find non-gendered sports a cute end run around title ix. After all everyone can claim to be both male and female at the same time so there are exactly the same of both genders in the sports. The same as the number of players. The end result will be forcing most women out of organized sports. But considering that happened to plenty of men under title ix I couldn't care less for them.

"And your argument is farcical. You say sex is fluid but culture is not?

Do you lack reading comprehension? Yes because I said:

Race is relative. Sex is biological.

Meaning I am Hispanic because that is what the US Government thinks (relative) and I am a woman because I got a woman brain (not fluid).

So, ppen, are you saying that black people can never appreciate classical music? That Asian can never enjoy picnics with fries chicken? That Portlandians wan never enjoy grits?

At what point can a person raised in one culture not identify as belonging to another culture?

Why is it black people from Compton, black people from Beverly Hills, black people from Somalia, and black people from the Caribbean, can all be considered "black" culturally even though the cultures they grew up in look nothing alike.

Why can a woman who made herself look black to the point everyone she met assumed she was and treated her like they would any other black person, be considered black culturally?

Sorry my phone doesnt do spell check, but it does do auto correct, here it is again

So, ppen, are you saying that black people can never appreciate classical music? That Asians can never enjoy picnics with fried chicken? That Portlandians can never enjoy grits?

At what point can a person raised in one culture not identify as belonging to another culture?

Why is it black people from Compton, black people from Beverly Hills, black people from Somalia, and black people from the Caribbean can all be considered "black" culturally even though the cultures they grew up in look nothing alike.

Why cant a woman who made herself look black to the point everyone she met assumed she was and treated her like they would any other black person, be considered black culturally?

"Why is it black people from Compton, black people from Beverly Hills, black people from Somalia, and black people from the Caribbean can all be considered "black" culturally even though the cultures they grew up in look nothing alike."

Uh because American society perceives them as black? Am I missing some earth shattering point here? I know plenty of "black" people that Americans label as black meanwhile they themselves don't think of themselves that way (Dominicans for example get super pissed if you call them black). Completely arbitrary.

The reason why you are a race is completely up to the whims of the society you live in. I look racially ambiguous I wouldn't even need to Dolezal myself out to be treated like a non-Hispanic person.

Scientists didn't do years of research and open up the brains of dead non-Hispanics who identified as Hispanics and determined there was a biological reason they preferred burritos and salsa music over hamburgers and smooth jazz. In fact the more scientists analyzed our genes the more they determined we are basic carbon copies and inbred monkeys.

On the other hand after years of research it has been determined there is a very strong biological reason for transgendered individuals and it is not arbitrary. You are not a MtF because society says you are. You are a MtF because you were born one. So doctors decided that the best course of treatment for now is to let the person live in and identify as the gender they feel they are because there is a biological reason for their feelings. That's an objective reason why Jenner is a woman to me.

Race is social and society says she ain't black. I agree. She is a white woman who put on black makeup and goes back and forth between white and black to push an agenda.

If race is social and she lives that social life and people treat her as though she is part of that sociality then why cant she be part of that sociality?

If you can wrap your head around society being allowed to lump gang bangers form Compton and silver spoon trustfund yachters from the Hamptons as equally black, why not a white woman who lived more of a "black social lifestyle" than the black millionaires who own their own islands near Martha Vineyard?

Why is a white boy from the black hood less socially black than a black prince from an African nation living the playboy lifestyle in Manhattan?

"Why is a white boy from the black hood less socially black than a black prince from an African nation living the playboy lifestyle in Manhattan?"

Because other people perceive him as white despite having no biological basis for the racial classifications?

Is this less about labels and more about the perceived unfair social benefits of being a minority in America?

This isn't a debate on what makes a black person black in America. Why do I have to explain the black experience to you?

I mean originally what was up for debate was why we respect Jenner and not Dolezal. You, Ben and KenR said Jenner/Dolezal where the same thing and it was hypocritical to not accept both. My point is that's not true at all.

Trans people have objective biological reasons for feeling like the wrong gender. Sex is hardwired. It why Jenner can do surgery or legally change her name and gender.

Dolezal does not have objective biological reasons for feeling like the wrong race. Race is subjective and up to the whims of the society you live in.

If there wasn't an inherent biological reason for being trans I wouldn't respect peoples need to change their gender. I would just label them as loons and ignore them. So I'm labeling Dolezal as a loon and ignoring her. She isn't black because society says she isn't black. I don't care to explain "why" other people say she isn't black. That's a separate complicated topic but I'm tired of people saying being transgendered and transracial are the same thing.

But your argument doesn't hold up Ppen. One is black and another is not 'Because other people perceive him as white despite having no biological basis for the racial classifications'. Yet Dolezal was perceived as black by many. In fact she was perceived this way for years. So by your own rule she is black. You object that she chose to appear that way while others happen to appear that way.

In that context this is the same as transgender. You were one way and you chose to change your appearance. The underlying cause of why you made that choice is irrelevant.

And in the case I linked to things are taken a step further. You have a person who looks one way and says they feel another. But there is no proof that this is true. Even so we are required to take them at their word. In that specific case I don't doubt that the fellow is honest.

I was commenting on what happens next. There are very obvious consequences to what the government is trying to mandate. If you think boys won't lie, cheat, and steal to see naked girls you are ignorant or delusional. That is normal healthy male behavior. If you think there is some social stigma that will prevent men from lying about this you are also ignorant. Guys already lie about being gay to get girls. That's gone on for over 30 years now. Given the choice of having their team cut or half of the guys signing a piece of paper saying they are girls you will get enough guys to sign the paper to keep the team.

I fully recognize there are problems with being trans. But there are none with falsely claiming to be trans.

"Sorry Ppen, all the rest of us want is for people like you to fuck off and leave us alone. "

Actually what we all want is for you to state your argument(s) without insulting your enemy-of-the-moment.

"black experience"?

If she looks lack, everone assumes she is black, and people treat hr as though she is black, and according to you being black is not about biology but how you are treated

Then by your own logic she was black

Nope. I don't think she was black. Anymore than I am all the races people confuse me as. Which is like basically every race (except black).

It requires a nuanced explanation and I personally don't want to see anymore of Ben's tedious posts.

What can I say Gog, turn about is fair play. And sorry for being a tedious person Ppen. I just have a tedious mind. What can we do? It's biology.

Why not give the dog some bacon? I give it mine all the time - and I will also heat up some bacon fat to coat his kibble in - he loves it.