Worry about this!

Um... Oh... Sarcasm in the service of what insight, exactly?

Modernity is wonderful stuff. We know this. It's better to be raised in 21st century Enid than in impoverished, illiterate, third-world destitution and primitivism. Stipulated.

So what are you smirking about?

This is happening in our society.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061842/Mohammad-Shafia-murdered-daughter-honour-killing-said-hed-again.html

It does no one harm to remind us that the Muslims/apologists constantly stating that we should not blah blah blah about Islam have not, can not, and will not address the fact that they are ignoring specific "commandments" which are sacred in a large part of the world to a staggering large number of peoples.

It's time to stop letting others "frame" the discussion so that it avoids an unpleasant truth.

Keep it simple. Keep it straight forward. Don't get sidetracked defending yourself.

Just as with the "bathroom" debate, it really is about school locker rooms and not the restroom at Wal-Mart. Title IX be damned.

It might be stating the obvious but that's how people are educated initially and how rote explanations are shown to be shallow.

> It does no one harm to remind
> us that the Muslims/apologists
> constantly stating that

Golly, I'd say it would. I think all the shit going on in the world generally, and in Islam specifically, the 1.6 Billion people described by the word Muslim, and the enormous spectrum of diversity they include, and their predominance in the most detached and impoverished corners of our planet...

And I think yes, yes it does some measure of harm —if only by the humiliation of the self— to obsess in such sequestered, impersonal fascination with texts, as if you might understand the history and events in the Catholic Church through a casual reading of the New Testament.

Such sheeple-screaming is egotistical preening, devoid of insight and meaningful engagement. The bitter, ahistorical disregard of practicalities —geography, demographics, modernity— is not the product of someone with a meaningful concern about the topic: To imagine oneself as a courageous challenger to the milquetoast, subliterate 'apologists' without regard for the lives of the people under discussion doesn't help anyone. The noisemakers worrying you so will always be with us... But in the century underway, the vast majority of Muslim lives are going to experience an incredible amount of improvement, a howling mockery of those who'll demand they look only backward. Anyone who was paying attention knew that these transitions, and their countless unpleasant particulars, were in our future no matter what. To smirk "Tolja!!!" for each is, as described at 5:20 AM, its own sort of prayer.

Amy must know this on some level. Why else would she never demand that we do anything, except admire her for such slender, sphinctered pieces of research?

What we need is to be informed and honest about the dictates of Islam so we can do something about it. There are so many -- like you -- Crid, who base their thinking on their lack of information and their desire that the information conform to their ideas rather than what is. This keeps us from making informed decisions about how to deal with Islam and really, from doing anything meaningful about it.

Fuck that. You don't know anything about Muslims, and it's a transparent, childish posture by which you pretend you do, Amy. It's embarassing.

We used to have a Constitutional Amendment that prohibited slavery, but that living document may be dead.

> so we can do something about it.

WHAT, Amy? You won't describe a flow of events, or countervailing forces, or political implications or or or or or anything but whatever Reader's Digest piece you read that weekend.

As noted above, what you apparently want us to "do" is pass you a little gumdrop of remembrance any time anyone in these populations does, or says, anything unpleasant. It's twisted. Not about Islam... It's about you.

Can't recall just now... Is Indonesia mostly Sunni or Shia? And Nigeria?

Crid, It's your endless deployment of sarcasm and pretensions of tone that makes me think you're a moral idiot, too cowardly to say something for fear of being challenged and overwhelmed.

Crid, It's your endless deployment of sarcasm and pretensions of tone that makes me think you're a moral idiot, too cowardly to say something for fear of being challenged and overwhelmed.

lujlp at May 17, 2016 8:02 AM

Crid has pointed out time and time again, that there isn't even a ten percent correlation between what a religious text says and what the adherents of a religion actually do,

and yet Amy goes screeching on, as if Muslims were mindless automatons who strictly adhere to a text the vast majority of them can't even read.

Somehow, in her mind, the religion itself is the problem. As opposed to it being (mostly) an expression of Arab cultural values a thousand years ago.

If you think people on this board, including Crid haven't said anything substantive about Islam and Muslims, you need to go back and read some posts.

Somehow, in her mind, the religion itself is the problem. As opposed to it being (mostly) an expression of Arab cultural values a thousand years ago.

Ok, so how does one separate the two?

Crid: "Golly, I'd say it would. I think all the shit going on in the world generally, and in Islam specifically, the 1.6 Billion people described by the word Muslim, and the enormous spectrum of diversity they include, and their predominance in the most detached and impoverished corners of our planet..."

Molenbeek: "There are no Muslim ghettoes here (in America) like those in Molenbeek or the Paris suburbs, where authorities turn a blind eye to antisocial behavior and aggressive incitement by radicals preaching jihad."

The problem Crid is that your (I'm presuming) stance mirrors the "turning a blind eye to antisocial behavior" which has been shown to be a "wrong" solution to criminal (as we Americans define it) behavior everywhere.

Like it or not a sensible "broken windows or stop/frisk" has always been successful in hindering the growth of crime. (Too bad police tactics become bullying instead of mentoring.)

Commenting on the undesirable mores of a religious or cult group (for example, child brides in the Islamic world and in parts of Utah) does no harm in a society where free speech is a given.

See Europe/Middle East for examples of the problems created when this (free speech) is not the norm.

There's a reason we've not had the problem Europe has and it is totally due to the STATED expectations of what is acceptable and expected behavior of people living in the U.S.A. (of course this is an ongoing ever changing process).

"At the core of the American experience is a conviction that immigrants who come to America can and should become Americans."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/columns/2016/03/27/why-there-are-muslim-ghettoes-belgium-but-not-united-states/zek1CSRR0epWhLmSCiPWKK/story.html

"You don't know anything about Muslims, and it's a transparent, childish posture by which you pretend you do, Amy. It's embarassing."

Please expand upon the subject. Take care to identify the motivation of those millions who have publicly described their desire to eliminate you, as you fail to dedicate what you do to Allah.

Describe the likely outcome should you produce a film project explaining the life of Mohammed's 9-year-old bride in terms reflecting modern American standards.

Rebut the crimes committed in Muslim-majority areas of Paris and London. Show another cause than the theocracy in which such people were raised.

On a more positive note, explain how Islam has brought prosperity to every nation/area/tribe who has adopted it.

Lastly, please explain how terrorist acts in which the perpetrators shout, "Allahu Akhbar!" are not, in fact, the product of the conflict between those who claim to embrace Islam fully and everyone else, INCLUDING Muslims who apparently aren't worshipping Allah the "right" way.

-----

So Amy does what she wants on her own blog. Gee. What would a dedicated Muslim demand of her?

The same thing you are: "Shut up, you're wrong, there's nothing to see here it's normal."

> your (I'm presuming) stance
> mirrors the "turning a blind
> eye to antisocial behavior"

Ludicrous. Were we in the same town, I'd make all of us take a proctored quiz, and I'd trounce Amy. Or you. And perhaps Isab, but her military background gives her superpowers, as does Conan's habit of reading books for pleasure, not brownie points.

You don't have to "presume" anything. You can see the things I write and check them out. And about Islam and Muslims I've written plenty, though you obviously haven't been reading. There's a reason that Amy's never answered even one of the dozens of unremarkable questions I've posed to her about Islam... She simply does not know. She cares only about matters too mundane to excite a challenge.

To wit:

> "There are no Muslim ghettoes
> here (in America) like those
> in Molenbeek or the Paris suburbs

This contradicts nothing I've ever said. I *know* why there are no Paris-style ghettos here, and have written about it a number of times. Consider this, from ten freeking years ago, February 8, 2006 10:28 AM:

And so anyway, it's not simply religious faith that's giving us these problems. It's a deep intersection of religion, poverty, ignorance, isolation, sexism, racism and hillbilly-hood. Blaming religion is like blaming pneumonia for the death of your great-grandfather last week. Sure, that's what's on the death certificate, but actually the guy was too old to cough.

[I]'m not sure we can defend them from the conversion to Eurabia, or that we want to be bothered. It's kind of a gentle presentation, but if you go listen to the Reynolds' interview with Claire Berlinski...

http instapundit.com/archives/028869 php

...she makes some interesting points about how the United States is better at dealing with Arabian immigrants than Europe is. One secret: Cleveland gets the urban, educated, aspirational ones. Paris gets the hillbillies.

You've perhaps accepted Amy's deluded habit of feigning exotic scholarly insight for each factoid that trundles across your screen. This is so fucking weird... If you guys ever met Jordan, you'd start babbling about the wonders of the jump shot. If a reanimate Beethoven showed at your door for dinner, you'd learn sign language so you could talk to him about that remarkable new agent of musical innovation, Bieber.

"Expand upon" your own fucking subject, Raddy.

Ooo, he's mad now! {shaking}

But: thanks for (some of) that last comment.

Meanwhile: ten years ago, you didn't know what would happen today.

And you really think even the regulars go back and look for everything you utter?

""Expand upon" your own fucking subject, Raddy."

So the answers are self-evident; they just don't support another protest that Amy protesteth too much.

> you didn't know what would
> happen today.

Of course I did. It was all foretold by Berlinski, Austin Bay, Jim Dunnigan, and perhaps most explicitly and famously, Mark Steyn... I cited them here, more than once. What do you imagine that I didn't see coming?

> So the answers are self-evident

No. They were posted on this blog. You weren't paying attention, and now demand customized Cliff Notes... But you could just do the reading. Besides, the 'teth' is a clumsy extension to one of the world's best-known stage lines. Don't work so hard, okay? Just read the shit.

I'm worried about the Somalis here in Minnesota. Evidently bringing TB here and me with a suppressed immune system.

Anybody ever see a movie called Hamlet 2?

"That's right... The DEUCE!"

Here's your get off the head chopping block for a while free card:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJPVkVevicI

Until they inform you that you need to show your true jihadi spirit.

Indian men stabbing female relative to death in a typical 'honor killing' are attacked by sacred cow.

Trigger warning: murder.

Well, murder and non-feminist values, so whichever freaks you out the most - beware.

"It's a deep intersection of religion, poverty, ignorance, isolation, sexism, racism and hillbilly-hood."

For those over 30 and stuck in the sands of the Middle East perhaps this is true and it was definitely more true 10 years ago.

For those today w/smart phones and the ability to read, none of the above is true. They are not isolated, ignorant of the impact of their decisions, or stuck in some isolated hollow in the mountains.

They decided to follow the "dark side" of their religion and they do it because it meets a need they have to control, to feel better about themselves, to shift responsibility from themselves to others.

This is what needs to be said out loud regardless of the likelihood that that "darkness" will impact our lives. It is impacting other lives and should not be left hidden and thus supposedly approved as a "cultural" thing.

Muslims need to let this side of their religion "die" and we need to be outspoken of that need until it is "safe" for Muslims to say it out loud and to make it happen (see CAIR).

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/393614/cair-terror-group-daniel-pipes

Um, if Oklahoma girl's daddy finds out she and her boyfriend are doing it, I don't think he or her brother will bludgeon her, drown her, or light her on fire.

To me, this is the broad overall difference between adherents of Christianity and adherents of Islam: a matter of degree, or severity. Christians dislike a lot of the same things Muslims dislike, but the reaction of Muslims tends to be much more severe.

For example, when Andres Serrano did his infamous piece "Piss Christ" -- the photo of a crucifix submerged in his urine (it was actually quite beautiful; I saw it in Seattle) -- he received death threats from irate Christians. But was he actually killed? No. If he had done "Piss Muhammed" would he have been killed by an enraged Muslim? I'd say it's highly likely. Do Christians like it if someone burns a Bible? Of course not. Do they riot and kill people over it? No.

> this is the broad overall difference
> between adherents of Christianity
> and adherents of Islam: a matter
> of degree, or severity.

I *know*, right? Totally!

It's almost like Christianity, poised as it was in cultures infected (sometimes quite literally) by the exploratory, exploitative, and integrating powers of modernity, has had it's excesses tamed centuries before the detached, illiterate and primitive peoples of Islam could begin their own development.

Okay, how many times have I said that in this particular comment stack?

At least once.

Home many times on this topic over the years?

At least two dozen.

"Bob in Texas at May 17, 2016 5:16 PM" suggests I'm going to have to say it a couple hundred more times before people will comprehend.





You guys are so proud of saying that you prefer modern cultures to primitive ones. And you seem to imagine that the mere touch of an Iphone 4 will cause an illiterate man to reject every intellectual, economic, political, sexual, dietary, interpersonal and religious practice that he, his family and his nation have ever known in order to transition, instantly and casually, into a fully postmodern Sausalito lifestyle... Aftershave, Squarespace, the whole kit 'n kaboodle.

Good luck with that! Meanwhile, Amy screeches "Moozlims!" and you're enchanted.

It's almost like Christianity, poised as it was in cultures infected (sometimes quite literally) by the exploratory, exploitative, and integrating powers of modernity, has had it's excesses tamed centuries before the detached, illiterate and primitive peoples of Islam could begin their own development.

Havent you also argues Islam, was a cradle for knowledge during Europes dark ages?

You cant argue that Islam had all the stuff that sparked the west's Age of Reason for a few centuries longer and simultaneously claim the havent had enough time to join the modern era.

"But you could just do the reading."

No, delicious one, I can't. You cited your own stuff from ten years ago.

"And you seem to imagine that the mere touch of an Iphone 4 will cause an illiterate man to reject every intellectual, economic, political, sexual, dietary, interpersonal and religious practice that he, his family and his nation have ever known in order to transition, instantly and casually, into a fully postmodern Sausalito lifestyle... Aftershave, Squarespace, the whole kit 'n kaboodle."

You have just inverted yourself, Socratically, as well as assuming something not in evidence and using the Broad Brush fallacy ("you..." following "You guys..."). This sentence argues that the Muslim is an intransigent enemy of modernity, which is consistent with Amy's position.

Not to mention that that entire leap need not be made. Nobody cares if that goatherd uses aftershave. It's enough if he doesn't strap explosives on himself because his pedophile leader won't let him see an ankle.

The point Crid is that bibles were being burned in the USA in the 1800's by representatives of the Catholic Church. (Not sure when they moved from burning people to burning bibles but ...)

It was not stopped by everyone saying doing so was something not to be spoken of because, you know, it was the Catholic Church. The Church realized that it was losing POWER by doing so and it stopped after much discussion.

The need for an Islamic Reformation is just a topic of discussion except for where you have to fear for your life (some mosques?), and it's certainly not the only topic.

I recognize that when you are older than dirt things get old but ...

> You cited your own stuff
> from ten years ago.

Prickbot, this is getting meta... And note my stylish use of rhetorically intimidating boldface text.

All you little fuckers are upset that I won't do all your research for you so you can have a fight with me. You're really certain that you disagree with me about something, but you haven't got a fucking clue what it is.

Raddy's moist girlpanties are painfully wadded into boldtext fury by the mere suggestion that the world didn't come into being last time he booted his computer. Ben complains of "homework" assignments when asked to substantiate his arguments.

If you cared enough, or if you had the faith of your convictions, you could go back hours, weeks, months, years or decades to find whatever it is that put a bee in your bonnet... But no.

And of course, Raddy still can't talk the point:

> Nobody cares if that goatherd
> uses aftershave.

Go to the second comment on this page: Stipulated, modern people are more fun than not-modern people. What credit do you want for acknowledging this?

More than you're getting, apparently, because you can't concede the point: Cultures have grown --and been nourished-- into modernity at different paces and by differing contexts

This is desperately provincial: You guys can't imagine that anyone hasn't had the same life and perspective you've had, or that anyone who hasn't wouldn't forswear their entire culture and personal identity at the first glance of your swaggering supremacy.

In this last, inevitable, cataclysmic evolution of the human enterprise from primitivism into civilization, you guys (and Amy) are too terrified, or short-sighted, to do see anything but a chance to expression your social elevation from the nasties.

And there's more, but I got errands.

Dude, do the reading or don't.

But if you don't, or it's too complicated, don't pretend you've made an argument, okay?

That's right— Hasn't wouldn't. I said it.

Meant it, too.