Fuck the opinions of legal immigrants. They tend to keep their old racist and sexist views from their home countries. Their opposition has nothing to with all the suffering they endured of waiting in line. If they could have sneaked in they would have because that's what the entire world would do if it could.

Plus if you really get to know most of them they also don't like other LEGAL immigrants or whites, or blacks or whatever. They're awful people with awful views for the most part.

I've yet to meet a Cuban who doesn't hate all the new cuban arrivals because they are chusma. On top of hating blacks and mexicans, legal or not.

I'm tired of this magical thinking that immigrants are nice people with healthy American views. I give zero fucking shits what they think because for the most part I think most are awful.

(And I've noticed illegal immigrants that were given the Reagan treatment and are now legal are also opposed to illegal immigrants.)

SO fuck everyone. I don't give a shit what legal or illegal immigrants think. My view is simple and LIBERAL.

Illegal immigrants are condoned and exploited slave labor who suppress wages for the working class and minorities.

When I say this to my LIBERAL friends none can really oppose it. That's how I have found you win people over in the debate.

And again fuck the opinions of immigrants.

Simmer down.

Specifically, Amy's point—

> It makes a mockery of anybody
> who's done it legally and really
> gives us little choice in who
> we accept as citizens.

— is unassailable.

> They tend to keep their old
> racist and sexist views from
> their home countries.

And then they grow out of them. I can't imagine how illegal entry would diminish this problem.

> Their opposition has nothing to
> with all the suffering they
> endured of waiting in line.

What makes you think so? This is weird.

> If they could have sneaked
> in they would have because
> that's what the entire world
> would do if it could.

So are you for or against illegal immigration?

> Plus if you really get to
> know most of them they...

Have you gotten to know "most"?

> They're awful people with
> awful views for the most part.

Very weird.

What's going on over there tonight?

Eh maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

I'm against illegal immigration. However bringing up the opinions of legal immigrants is silly to me if your goal is to convince people on the fence.

"Illegal immigrants are exploited slave labor that suppress the wages of the working class and minorities."

That's how I've been able to convince my liberal friends or people on the fence. That's what I believe.

Legal immigrants are in their opinions pretty shitty as a general rule. No they don't grow out of their racist and sexist views. If they're young sure but their children are the ones who drop that. Not them.

"What makes you think so?"

Speaking with them. Living with them.

"Have you gotten to know "most"?"

Both educated and uneducated. Eastern European, Latin Americans, Asians, Middle Easterners. I speak fluent Spanish I know the guys and gals well. I work with them and live with them. Those beliefs don't go away. I live in an immigrant community. Friends and I talk about it---their parents are educated Asian immigrants. They don't drop those beliefs trust me.

American culture just forces their children to drop those beliefs.

I actually don't have a problem with immigrants as in I want them gone. I mean I always lived in immigrant communities and am around them all day at work. Wouldn't have it any other way.

But yeah I think their beliefs are awful and super shitty for the most part. Awful people in the sense that their beliefs shock me as an American.

Man I remember living with Cubans, Mexicans, Salvadoreans, Guatemalans. Yeah I know what they say. When you speak Spanish you really get to know their intimate beliefs about women, about children, about pets, about blacks, about each other.

They're polite to their white friends or white bosses. Black ppl know what I'm talking about.

I feel that some Americans have this starry eyed idea about them. That's why when other Americans oppose even legal immigration they cry racism, when it's more complex than that. For me it's that we're banking on their children to assimilate which fortunately they do really well because American culture is unique in that way.

You know I've been thinking about the best way to crush someones idea of the assimilation of legal well educated immigrants. To make them really question their desire about accepting them into this country.

Sell them stuff. I'm serious. Sell Indian/arabs/asians/persians something of value. Don't go for poor people, go for the really educated ones with some money that speak english well. Do a unique service or product.

Then come back to me and tell me that they assimilate into our American culture and drop their stupid customs.

You wont because I know what independent contractors and small business owners go through. I suspect thats why most voted for Trumplethinskin and liked his immigration ideas even if it meant excluding well educated immigrants.

> No they don't grow out of
> their racist and sexist
> views.

That's just silly. How did YOU grow out of your R&S? How does anyone?

> Both educated and uneducated.

Who said anything about school?

> They don't drop those beliefs
> trust me.

I very don't specifically do not, and wouldn't have even if you'd included the comma.

> American culture just forces
> their children to drop those
> beliefs.

Then who cares? Do you suppose the Irish or the Italians or the Brits or any variety of Asian ever did any better?

I'm wondering where in the world we're going to find this neatly-dressed, English-speaking, American-savvy pool of candidates whom you imagine, by inference at least, to be available to us.

This is just so fucking weird.

> Legal immigrants are in their
> opinions pretty shitty as a
> general rule.

Aren't such people best described as "citizens"? Why are you so eager to describe distaste for them?

Ppen is describing "human" behavior. Plain and simple. Immigration has nothing to do with it.

There are people that inherently respect "rules" and go along. This does not mean they are not aholes.

There are people that inherently believe "I want it really more than they do so I'll take it." as well as "They have no value other than what I give them so I can do as I want." This does not make them criminals but beware.

In my listening to Dems/Libs they have no logic, no knowledge, no focus to their thoughts on this subject. They "feel" that open borders is correct because of empathy to the individual not the Nation.

Example, Pelosi is more interested in pushing a bill to give illegal workers citizenship than in improving existing guest worker laws. Why not improve our laws, working conditions, and such? We need the workers, their families need the money, and they should not be subjected to inhumane treatment. No brainer but ...

It is not uncaring to state that illegal is wrong regardless of whether they survived 1 day or 10 years. Change the laws. Just because you live in a cocoon does not mean you are right.

I grew up in an enormous university apartment building that was essentially the United Nations. People brought families from all over the globe as they completed their educations, and I may have seen hundreds of children go from social zeros (and I mean null/emptyset, from no language or silverware skills) to normal neighborhood pals within about 18 months. Their parents were often slower in acclimating, though they naturally had their heads in their books of coursework and the distracting responsibilities of adulthood. But...

> I find that few people value
> being a citizen of this country
> like my friends who grew up in
> Cuba or the former USSR.

...But the most powerful example I've seen of this in adult life was about fifteen years ago, when that young internet hotshot Glenn Reynolds came to UCLA to speak about those newfangled blogs on a dais with Mickey Kaus and others.

The event was hosted by Eugene Volokh, then completely unknown to me. But he was present for the event, perhaps handling introductions or questions... I don't recall.

But there was something disquieting about the guy, something challenging in his body language that I wasn't sure I liked. Now, he's a fine looking chap, but unremarkable in his basic appearance... How he conveyed this vibe of daring through the entirely (entirely!) unremarkable garb of a young law professor was a mystery that got under my skin.

Eventually I put it together: This was a guy who'd come from a place where people didn't have many rights.

And now he lived in a place where he had a lot of really fantastic rights... And he was going to make the most of every last goddam one of 'em, even if surrounding natives weren't so enchanted. You could literally see it in his gait. (A few years later he took a swarm of lefty & girly bloggers from L.A. [perhaps including Amy] to a shooting range, demonstrating most clearly how the Second Amendment worked in practice.)

And he chose as his life's work the study and explication of rights.

Worked out really well for all of us, wouldn't you say? He likes it here.

Fuck the opinions of legal immigrants. They tend to keep their old racist and sexist views from their home countries.

How did I know that was you, Ppen? now, riddle me this, are the illegal immigrants any better with regard to their old racist and sexist views from the Old Country?

Are they trying to become, you know, Americans? which you'll notice that is what the legal immigrants are working towards.

"How did I know that was you, Ppen?"

Because your heart filled with unmitigated rage, "how dare she, how dare she believe illegal immigrants are better than legal ones"

And the possibility that I don't believe that.......never entered your mind. Because righteous rage or something.

Lmao.

You still salty over that link showing how Mexican illegal immigration is down? And your own government is accepting illegal Central Americans with open arms.

I used to sit in a cubicle next to two legal immigrant women, one Dutch and one Japanese. They often had discussions about current events which carried over the cubicle walls. On such discussion concerned the Clinton administration's plan to offer amnesty to illegal immigrants (circa 1995). They were both adamantly opposed. The Japanese woman felt she had been humiliated answering some of the question asked of her during her immigration process and did not see why some should be allowed to skip that process because they snuck in. The Dutch woman was generally calmer, but expressed complete agreement with her. Both women were by then naturalized citizens of the United States. Neither woman carried her Old World prejudices.

Granted, this sample size of 2 is not representative of the entire population of legal immigrants, but it was an interesting discussion to overhear.

==============================

Assimilation takes time. A recent immigrant is more likely to cling to Old World attitudes to ground himself. As he adapts to this country and finds grounding in friends and social groups, he'll likely lose some of those attitudes. He may not (the Tsarnaev brothers didn't).

The idea behind assimilation is to expose a new immigrant to the whole of American society, not lock him into an ethnic ghetto surrounded by a clique that clings to the old ways and refuses to assimilate. The French have done that and look how well it worked out for them. Starting riot in 5... 4... 3... 2...

For immigrants from Third World societies, assimilation is doubly tough. They're not used to pace and technology of modern Western society. They're generally not used to the isolation of Western society either - no family or clan structures to provide a safety net. Add in language and other cultural barriers and they have a tough time not falling under the sway of an ethnic ghetto with its resentments and withdrawal.

Tamim Ansary wrote about the cultural clash between East and West, individual-oriented vs. clan-oriented, in his Destiny Disrupted, a very good book if you want to gain an Eastern perspective on Muslim and non-European history.

"They have no value other than what I give them so I can do as I want."

You kinda blew my mind there Bob.

I was having trouble explaining to my nephew why cheap penny pinching customers are the most work intensive.

But hearing liberals talk about undocumented immigrants confuses him: The fact that their entering the country broke the law is somehow sidestepped, like a crude remark at a polite dinner party. Democrats oppose deportation on the grounds that it breaks up families, Mr. Ma said. But so do other aspects of the justice system -- without setting off the same outcry.

In a nation of laws, those laws must apply equally to all people, no matter how heartbreaking the story behind the law breaking or the consequences of that law breaking.

There is room for mercy under the law, but not for wholesale dismissal of law breaking. Do that and the country is no longer a country of laws, but of cliques and power blocs; of tyranny.

"Justice tempered by mercy" has always been our goal. But too many have forgotten the "justice" part, others ignore the "mercy" part.

The problem with legal immigrants is that they are just so darn smug and uppity.

It is almost as if they think they have a legal right to be here.

"Their objections stunned Democratic supporters"

Of course they are "stunned" because Democrats aren't in touch with everyday people.

And, Democrats think that ALL immigrants are the same.

I gotta say Ppen is largely right. Both on the inherent human nature part (it isn't limit to immigrants) and the better argument part.

"cheap penny pinching customers are the most work intensive."

That is why you have to put a limit on how much you are willing to invest before you get started. They will nickle and dime you while holding out the hope of a big reward later. Once it is all said and done the costs are higher than planned, the rewards lower than promised, and you may have not turned a profit on the deal. But each little step feels so doable and affordable you end up not noticing the total cost until it is all over.

Not lecturing but empathizing because I've been there too. The you is probably a me.

Is this just me but do you notice how hard it is to fire them? Like they take it really personally and cause a huge scene. Or they look you up again and again over the years?

Was that directed at me Ppen? Assuming it is I'm unclear on the word 'fire'. I'm an independent contractor with no current employees (a few come and go but none right now). I have had issues with bad customers like that. You get sucked into a bad deal, wake up and realize you don't want to do this anymore, and yes they don't want to let you go. After all they were getting a really good deal. I just calmly say 'I'm no longer interested in the business opportunity. Please seek an alternate vendor.' If they keep pestering I just stop responding and then they move on. As for employees it is a bit more difficult due to labor laws and such but you just do the heartless corporate thing and say 'I no longer require your services. Check is in the mail. Please leave the property.' thing. Hopefully nicer but there is good reason for the cold corporate thing. Some people are crazy.

It is key to remember for the bad customers you can say no. You don't have to work with them. If they are penny pinching bastards use that against them. Raise the price until they don't want to pay and move on. They are only sticking around because they are getting a good deal. They don't have any loyalty to you. This is a business deal and that is it. But I understand the difficulty. Some of them can be remarkably charismatic and persuasive. Which is why you have to set your boundaries before you begin. Otherwise the charismatic ones will argue you into giving your work away for free and you'll wash their car for them each Sunday.

Mushy-headed thinking never ends well. To say "open borders" sound so big-hearted, but you can't have open borders and then allow illegal immigrants to send their kids to school, live in subsidized housing, get food stamps etc etc. Getting a false ID often means identity theft and harming the person you are pretending to be. If you can't keep out criminals and terrorists, bad things are going to happen. What is happening in Europe is not immigration, it is an invasion of people who have no interest in assimilating.

Their objections stunned Democratic supporters

Thats becuase most democrats are racists

"For immigrants from Third World societies, assimilation is doubly tough. They're not used to pace and technology of modern Western society."

Or some liberties... "doubly tough" for some to refrain from killing a beautiful girl for being such a whore as to show her face.

"In a nation of laws, those laws must apply equally to all people, no matter how heartbreaking the story behind the law breaking or the consequences of that law breaking. There is room for mercy under the law, but not for wholesale dismissal of law breaking."

Just try to tell that to the next pot fan you meet. You'll be giggled at, because getting high is more important than any laws, and death in the supply chain only happens to other people.

Just try to tell that to the next pot fan you meet. You'll be giggled at, because getting high is more important than any laws, and death in the supply chain only happens to other people. ~ Radwaste at May 13, 2017 1:47 PM

Not just pot. Almost any illegal drug user will tell you it's a victim-less crime and blame the deaths in the supply chain on the illegality of the substance, and not on their own habit helping to fund ruthless suppliers.