I have very mixed feelings about this case.

Wasn't she fifteen when she went? She also didn't actually kill or torture anyone (that we know of), or provide military support. She basically went there and hung out at home getting knocked up. A few articles I read pointed out that it wasn't actually illegal to go to another country and marry someone, even if they are an ISIS fighter, nor is it illegal to not be shocked by ISIS.

My take on all these cases is people should first be tried in Iraq/Syria for any crimes they committed there, and then if they are still alive after their sentences, brought home to face any charges for laws broken there.

But if you find they haven't broken any laws, I think stripping people of citizenship is drastic.

So my take is... charge her with any crimes she committed and then see.

On a happier note, more local to me, Johan Cosar who went to fight ISIS received a slap on the wrist.

This was a hard one, too. Intellectually I get the threat to neutrality and the risk for folks back home to be seen taking sides... but my heart was with him!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47319581

Nic— Aren't you the longtime American expat in Scandinavia or someplace?

Is it at least possible that you're atypically sensitive to stories of being disowned by one's nation of origin?

Younger generations are deluded about the nature of their alliances in all respects: National, financial, sexual, linguistic, religious, intellectual, and so on.

In that most practical of contexts, punishing for disavowal of —or promiscuity toward— national allegiance might do much to encourage study of history and one's own capacity for loyalty.

When someone, even a twitching youth, mouths off about violence toward Western Civ, and then takes indisputably sincere steps to repudiate their allegiance to its precepts, I'm done.

Yeah… I'm older, and I have gray hair, and I'm generously provident to those I love and to others for whom I have some responsibility.

But I'm not your Dad, Isis child, and I don't owe you a do-over. You spent years building you understanding of the world to live far away from me.

Okay.

"...a deep resentment of western societies, and a perverse forgiveness and understanding of her enemies.

They don't understand western civilization's enemies. They set up a caricature of these enemies, which is themselves in an ethnic costume, and understand that.

Postmodern thought, which is infecting public discourse and is perhaps most prevalent within educational institutions, dictates that there are no individuals, only collective groups which we all belong to. Postmodern thinkers are obsessed with power, and with separating humans even from these groups into further sub-groups, and pitting those sub groups against each other - as the dominant and the submissive, the oppressor and the oppressed.

Collectivism is a monstrous evil, not as much from intent as from outcome.

The individual is subsumed as a piece of the whole, whatever whole the individual is considered a part of. And the individual's life, happiness, and well-being are made subordinate to that of the group.

Once the individual can be sacrificed righteously for the good of the group, the self-appointed guardians of the group gleefully start lopping off heads. And those guardians brook no dissent about what's best for the group; no divergence from the group identity is allowed.

What Crid said.

Can we stipulate that waging war, or assisting in the waging of war against your homeland to be a repudiation of one's citizenship to that homeland?

So now it gets hard, and you want to go home? suck it up, buttercup, you've made your home somewhere else.

Same for the chick from Alabama. At least she has the good graces to at least try to seem contrite for what she participated in.

Johan Cosar is a Swiss national. Going anywhere other than the Vatican to offer military services is forbidden. I guess that's seen as a violation of Swiss neutrality.

Collectivism is a monstrous evil, not as much from intent as from outcome.

The last 102 years of communism has a ghastly butcher's bill, 150+ million deaths. But it was for the Greater Good!

And if the actual kulaks are gone, you can always make more.

The last 102 years of communism has a ghastly butcher's bill.... ~ I R A Darth Aggie at February 23, 2019 8:10 AM

Add fascism's bill to that. Add the toll from the French Revolution. Socialism, communism, and fascism are all collectivist ideologies with horrible outcomes.

Yes IRA it is. But I'm still glad he got a slap on the wrist.

Yes, Crid, it is possible I am atypically sensitive because as a dual national I am atypically likely to be affected by policies that target dual nationals.

That said, did she break any laws? Does the fact that a 15-year-old can't actually consent to eloping anywhere matter? Are there any actual jihadists who return and DON'T get their citizenship revoked and does it matter?

Crid said it very well indeed, certainly better than Chloe Westley and in far fewer words and clearer language.

ISIS is not a gap year.

Kevin is most concise of all—

> ISIS is not a gap year.

✔




> did she break any laws?

You asked that earlier. But I don't want her to be prosecuted, I want her to go fuck herself.

Har! It's fun to be internet-snotty!

Naw, I mean, someone who lives as she's lived has already made a lot of consequential choices. She's old enough to make babies, she's obviously and adult. She's pregnant or a mother, right? I forget. [Checking.] Greeeeaaat, she wants to bring back a son, a child about whom she herself did not care enough to provide with a loving father. Whatever culture or community she lands in is going to have to deal with that kid, too. The tone of her bearing as described in the blog post gives no hope that she's ever taken anything seriously in any context. All of her experiences have forged her character not at all. Why should we affirm that someone could behave so badly and return (to Western Civ) for generous sustenance by her fellows? What's in it for us, so to speak?

Amy covered some of that in her blog post. I should read more carefully.

Sike!!!!

She's an idiot, and an awful human being. We would all love her to go fuck herself. It's fucking outrageous the way she talks and behaves. But should countries be able to strip peoples' citizenships for that? What kind of precedent does it set? Do we strip the citizenships of all the ladies who wrote love letters to Ted Bundy?

Strictly speaking I was old enough to make a baby when I was 11. I mean obviously I didn't, but I don't think that's a good criteria.

iowaan:

They don't understand western civilization's enemies. They set up a caricature of these enemies, which is themselves in an ethnic costume, and understand that.

Our principal enemy is we ourselves. That's what took down the Soviet and Roman empires. They failed from within. A bunch of guys with man dresses and AKs is decorative and gives us something to salivate about, but it is we ourselves who are the actual threat. If we choose to bring venomous serpents into our home it's not their fault if we get bit.

> But should countries be able to
> strip peoples' citizenships for
> that?

If not for that, then for what?

I'm reminded of what Frum said about Trump— In some contexts, words are actions… When he belittles our commitment to NATO, the motives and conduct of distant nations are often instantly re-aligned.

Across our culture, freedom of speech is being constrained and crippled because silly people are upset that it has consequences. This person said some of the worst things imaginable, and then settled into an adult life demonstrating the deepest possible sincerity. Why would you pretend she was too young to know what she was doing? What evidence has she presented that she regrets it, but for her own inconvenience?

I mean, if you're saying she was hanging "out at home getting knocked up" (my emphasis), then her citizenship was perhaps indeed renounced. And you'd certainly say she should have enough authority over her life to do that, wouldn't you?

However, Friday, CNN and others reported that she'd be stripped of her British citizenship to prevent her from returning home.

Good for them.

With the Muslim woman from Alabama, who left the U.S. because she wanted to fuck an ISIS fighter (I imagine she would've had a double-orgasm if the fighter had beheaded someone while he was fucking her) apparently, there's a question of whether she's actually a citizen or not.

This Washington Post article says:

Should her citizenship be established, the government lacks grounds to rescind it, the complaint argues, pointing to judgments issued by the Supreme Court as well as to federal statute.

Here's one of the tweets by this lovely woman:

Veterans,Patriot,Memorial etc Day parades..go on drive by's + spill all of their blood or rent a big truck n drive all over them. Kill them.

Strictly speaking I was old enough to make a baby when I was 11. I mean obviously I didn't, but I don't think that's a good criteria.

NicoleK at February 23, 2019 1:04 PM
_____________________________________

Well said. It's perfectly reasonable to say that the age of consent should be 16. Just because some societies don't agree doesn't make their lower-age laws right.

(Hint: Giving birth as a teen is more likely to be deadly, and even when it isn't, it often means the baby will have serious health problems. Also, girls younger than 16 may well try to hide their pregnancies for nine months and not get proper prenatal care. Of course, pregnancy isn't the only factor when it comes to lawmakers deciding on the legal age of consent. One can't vote at 16, after all - and many would say that, given how many adults are politically ignorant, instead of lowering the voting age to 18, we really should have raised the draft age to 21 instead, in 1971. Btw, I didn't know that the minimum draft age, before WWII, was HIGHER than 18!)

However, Friday, CNN and others reported that she'd be stripped of her British citizenship to prevent her from returning home.

Good for them.

With the Muslim woman from Alabama, who left the U.S. because she wanted to fuck an ISIS fighter (I imagine she would've had a double-orgasm if the fighter had beheaded someone while he was fucking her) apparently, there's a question of whether she's actually a citizen or not.

This Washington Post article says:

Should her citizenship be established, the government lacks grounds to rescind it, the complaint argues, pointing to judgments issued by the Supreme Court as well as to federal statute.

Here's one of the tweets by this lovely woman:

Veterans,Patriot,Memorial etc Day parades..go on drive by's + spill all of their blood or rent a big truck n drive all over them. Kill them.

Sorry for the double post.

"She also didn't actually kill or torture anyone (that we know of), or provide military support. She basically went there and hung out at home getting knocked up."

Do the words "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" ring a bell?

She renounced her citizenship by joining a self-declared enemy of her nation. Some choices should have unavoidable, permanent consequences. That is one of them, or nations effectively become non-entities.

Defectors don't get do-overs.

"Yes, this will suck for her and her children. It also sucks for the spouses and children of those killed by various Islamic terrorist organizations.

I don't see any problem with prioritizing the plight of those who suffer because of loyalty to one's own nation and values over the plight of those who suffer because they sought the destruction of said nation and values.

She wanted to experience the life of a jihadist. Giver her what she sought.