Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.

Eric Hoffer

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/98215-every-great-cause-begins-as-a-movement-becomes-a-business

Eric also notes that:

Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eric_Hoffer

Feminism has (d)evolved to the stage where it is a racket, a sinecure for the loud pot clanging grievance mongers.

And the soyboys who declare themselves feminists and cheer on the grievance mongers, but just want to score some tail.

Hey you guys! How ya doin'? Have a good'un!

This anti-Rust Belt geographic discrimination should not be allowed; we need to declare the entire upper Midwest victim country so that we can all be a special class at the DNC table of power.

But seriously...this garbage shows that America passed its apogee because all these activists have had every material need fulfilled, and now they must invent offense to expend emotional energy so as to not simply suicide for lack of any sense of fulfillment in a day.

Traditional religion has been useful for providing people with meaning in life; volunteering to help people who are really less fortunate also works to fill that hole to some degree. It would be hard work to get off her butt looking into the camera and reading a script to go volunteer to clean up the poor neighborhoods in Los Angeles or Oakland or Newark or Baltimore...

I bet Scott Presler says "thanks, you guys" to his volunteers who shovel garbage. I bet the poor say "thanks, you guys" in appreciation.

Didn't they kills "gals" as part of the weird war on language we've had to suffer through the last three generations?

Feminism has run its course. Now in the throws of its death rattle; in an attempt to appear relevant, these “feminists” are throwing shit to the wall to see what will stick.

This is the Hail Mary of identity politics.

A lot of people really believe that words and their connotations determine our thoughts and even our actions. This is a primary justification for the censorship demanded by social justice types, for example - that bad words must be banned because they will infect people and make them feel and do things.

That claim may seem ridiculous to most people, but I've come to suspect that there are many people for whom this is true. That their ability to think and act is strongly constrained by what they perceive to be intentional forces from 'society'.

Weirdly, the destruction of title IX is coming from within the established "feminist" organisations.

I lived in a small town in Illinois when I was in the fourth grade. "You guys" and "hey guys" were common references to groups of people, male and/or female. My mother was born in Chicago and used "guys" frequently to refer to groups containing both genders.

So, now we're outlawing regional dialects?

But if you call out people who say youse guys, is that considered racist? asking for Fredo Cuomo.

Just more proof that modern feminism (or maybe po-mo feminism) ruins everything that it touches.

What exactly is wrong with trying to avoid lazy (or profanity-laden) speech whenever possible? I can't stand "guys" because it's clearly lazy and childish. What's wrong with "men and women" or "ladies and gentlemen," as the occasion demands?

I was just reading the 2001 edition of Jim Trelease's "The Read-Aloud Handbook," and he gave an example, from a teenage girl's inability to be even somewhat articulate, of what the lack of reading, being read to, or having articulate peers (OR articulate parents) in one's life, can easily lead to. For many American-born teens, standard English really is a second language that many of them have no exposure to until school starts - and even then, they may not learn that second language!

Page 49:

"When National Public Radio interviewed high school seniors about their future plans,25 one teenage girl suggested she might someday want to become a veterinarian, but her immediate plans were less certain. Perhaps that uncertainty had something to do with her ability to express herself clearly. Here is an exact transcription of her remarks to NPR:

"I'm...ah...actually just kinda like thinking of makin', ya know, more money, gettin' a better job, ...hopefully, like, movin' out and, like, not depending on my parents as much 'cause I know a lotta my friends, like, they smug up like their parents and stuff, ya know..."

(There's a lot more, but I can't remember the right keywords, and Google Books isn't really helping.)

What's wrong with "men and women" or "ladies and gentlemen," as the occasion demands? ~ lenona at September 11, 2019 5:38 PM

Imagine you and your friends are hungry:

"You men and women wanna grab a pizza?"

--OR--

"You guys wanna grab a pizza?"

Perhaps you're gathering to watch the big game:

"Hey, men and women, the game's on!"

--OR--

"Hey, guys, the game's on!"

Sometimes "guys" just fits the occasion better.

Y’all? 😀

"Guys" is colloquial.

Those offended by it are attempting, with a pathetic vapor, to affirm social distance (specifically, elevation) from commonfolk.

In such cases it's almost metaphysically certain that the ones belittled in this transparent rhetorical fidgeting didn't want them around anyway, and weren't counting on them for anything.

Hey, non-specifically-gendered persons, the game's on.

We shouldn't watch it, though. It's the men's league.

Thanks, Feebie.

Conan, one could also argue that "You guys wanna grab a pizza?" is just redundant anyway. One could just as easily say "you wanna grab a pizza?"

But ideally, of course, adults would say "would you like to get a pizza?"

The dumbing down of society is not a harmless phenomenon, and it very much contributes to young people's refusal to grow up in general.

I found the rest of that NPR transcript:

"...they smug up like their parents and stuff, ya know, I don't wanna do that, like, I can be independent, like — do things for my own, ya know, like driving on my own, not having to, like, well — "Am I gonna buy, like, two books or, like, go buy this and that?" I'm just hoping that my life will, ya know, turn out to be a good one, ya know? Hopefully nothin' bad'll happen, like, ya know, ... And, ya know, I'm not sayin', ya know, hurry — live like a fool! It's like go skydiving and, ya know, stuff like that, ya know, like livin' it, like...ah...I just live like I think I'm supposed to. Like I want to live. Whatever happens, happens!"

And that was a high school senior.

Btw, I also dislike the expression "guys and girls." Not only does it sound to me like an expression used by semi-literate characters in a 1940s gangster movie (even though I belong to Generation X), but it also implies, I think, that boys shouldn't have to grow up and girls aren't allowed to grow up.

Kids can't get into the habit of speaking eloquently if they aren't made to practice at home, at least.

The dumbing down of society is not a harmless phenomenon, and it very much contributes to young people's refusal to grow up in general. ~ lenona at September 12, 2019 12:49 PM

No argument here. The vocabulary of the average American seems to be in serious decline. Without words, people cannot frame arguments, cannot express themselves.

"The problem isn't that he can't read. The problem isn't even that he can't think. The problem is that he doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling." ~ Thomas Sowell

I don't think the use of "guys" to colloquially refer to a group is a serious contributing factor in the dumbing down of society. Even WGBH Boston / PBS used it in the opening of the children's educational show, Zoom - opening with a shouted "hey, you guys!"

...one could also argue that "You guys wanna grab a pizza?" is just redundant anyway. One could just as easily say "you wanna grab a pizza?" ~ lenona at September 12, 2019 12:49 PM

True, but "you" has both plural and singular uses. And "you guys" or "y'all" or any other variety of colloquial collective pronouns helps to separate the two uses in casual conversation. One would not, of course, use those references in formal communication (if such a distinction still exists).

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/08/yall-vs-you-guys-why-the-southern-contraction-is-the-best-second-person-plural-pronoun.html

It’s hard to say whether modern day feminists would hate the male version more than using a southern contraction...

"What exactly is wrong with trying to avoid lazy (or profanity-laden) speech whenever possible? I can't stand "guys" because it's clearly lazy and childish. What's wrong with "men and women" or "ladies and gentlemen," as the occasion demands?"

Because people who go around micro-policing other people's grammar and vocabulary are Illinois Nazis, as a very wise man named John Belushi once said.

Seriously, there's a time and a place for more or less formal usage. I don't disagree with you that in general, the use of the English language by our younger cohort is going to crap. But we don't convince anyone by going Mrs. Grundy on them. As an analogy, good posture is important in general. But there's a time and a place for military-rigid, and a time and a place for a more relaxed demeanor. (This is true even in the military itself.) When we insist on the former in the place where the latter belongs, we just get people speculating on how long the broomsticks are that we have up our asses. Nobody takes that kind of person seriously.

Because people who go around micro-policing other people's grammar and vocabulary
__________________________________________

Well, it's obviously completely rude to do that if you're NOT the other person's parent, teacher, or superior at work. Otherwise, what's the problem? Tell me.

Oh, and Conan, as much as I loved all PBS shows as a kid, that doesn't change what critic Neil Postman said - those shows didn't teach kids to love learning nearly as much as they taught them to love television. To put a new spin on Marshall McLuhan, he wrote:

"We now know that 'Sesame Street' encourages children to love school only if school is like 'Sesame Street.' Which is to say, we now know that 'Sesame Street' undermines what the traditional idea of schooling represents...we would all be better off if TV got worse, not better."

(Btw, it was "The Electric Company," not "Zoom.")

So one could argue that those shows eroded discipline as much as they helped kids.

I also remember my dad seeing an album of "Zoom" and saying "oh yeah, I remember...little kids on speed."

(You have to admit they WERE kind of loud and over-active...)

And while it's only fair for all adults to demand that younger people show respect for adults by using proper GRAMMAR whenever they know how, in face-to-face situations, there's nothing wrong with even a child's saying to an adult "please don't use profanity around me; it bothers me."

So there's nothing wrong with any other person asking another person to stop using profanity in the presence of the former. (Of course, it's usually not SAFE to correct a stranger, per se, who's talking like that - the stranger could easily get violent.)

"Well, it's obviously completely rude to do that if you're NOT the other person's parent, teacher, or superior at work. Otherwise, what's the problem? "

Let me answer your question with a question: Are you Amy's mother?

You know perfectly well I wasn't telling Amy what to do; I merely said what I would prefer to hear in face-to-face situations.

For that matter, I don't even tell my friends not to use profanity when they're with me unless they're getting out of control and using it with every third sentence. (Same goes for harsh language that doesn't include profanity. I don't go around expressing my anger for third parties to see and I expect the same of others.)

Also, just because almost no one complains about the terrible grammar used by most TV newscasters/teleprompters these days doesn't mean audiences they wouldn't prefer it - greatly - if they ALL resolved to speak correctly in the future. Yes, teen audiences might consider correct grammar to be weird and laughable for maybe a month or more after the switch, but they'd get used to it.

Oh, btw Conan - many teachers from the 1970s will tell you how much they hated having to hear kids scream "hey you guuuuyyyyys" over and over. Even if it wasn't in the classroom, per se.

(One reason Mr. Rogers was so revered was that he could get water from a stone - that is, he knew how to make a show truly entertaining to children and adults alike without making it loud or even fast-paced. In other words, he made the show like everyday life.)

...many teachers from the 1970s will tell you how much they hated having to hear kids scream "hey you guuuuyyyyys" over and over. ~ lenona at September 14, 2019 7:29 AM

Many? Give me their numbers and I'll call them. This I gotta hear.

Btw, it was "The Electric Company," not "Zoom." ~ lenona at September 13, 2019 12:09 PM

There was a difference?

I remember Zoom had the S-A-S-E. They were always asking kids to mail stuff to them. That was weird.

As a kid, I always preferred The Electric Company over Sesame Street. Fewer muppets, for one thing.

I remember Zoom had the S-A-S-E. They were always asking kids to mail stuff to them. That was weird.
__________________________________________

Why? You DO know that the point of the show was that it was driven by KIDS' ideas, right?

From Wikipedia:

"Zoom (stylized as ZOOM) is a half-hour educational television program, created almost entirely by children, which aired on PBS originally from January 9, 1972 to February 10, 1978. It was based on Play School and produced by WGBH-TV in Boston. Unlike other children's fare at the time, it was, for the most part, unscripted. Far from seeking to make stars of the child performers, their contracts prohibited them from making any television appearances or doing commercials for three years after they left the show.

"Zoom encouraged children to 'turn off the TV and do it!' On the show, a cast of seven kids (ten in Season 4) known as Zoomers presented various activities such as games, plays, poems, recipes, jokes, songs, movies, science experiments, and informal chats on subjects such as hospitals, prejudice, etc., all suggested by viewer contributions."

So, yes, there WAS a big difference between EC and Zoom. EC was mainly about helping grade-school kids to read better, with heavy doses of adult-aimed humor. Zoom was about getting kids to be truly creative.

I will say that I didn't want to be a Zoomer; I wanted to be in the Short Circus - maybe because those kids were clearly polished, professional singers/musicians and the Zoomers weren't. (Guess which two belonged to the former? Denise Nickerson and Irene Cara!)

Also, my mother loved Rita Moreno - but who wouldn't?